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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6160877076 Basically, all units run automatically out of Blinding Cloud, which really negates the effectivity of Viper against Bio based compositions. It completely disables Tanks on the other hand, which is silly if you take into account that Viper was introduced as a unit to deal with large packs of marines and at the very beginning Blinding Cloud did not affect mechanical units at all. | ||
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Berceno
Spain401 Posts
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 21:58 Berceno wrote: who cares how was the spell the first day?? I'm happy with blinding cloud, now terran should spread his tanks and not make a big ball of 15tanks clumped How is this post relevant to the topic? Anyway, I agree it is an issue. The A.I shouldn't be micro'ing for the Terran and running his units out of the cloud. And considering the range of bio in relevance to the range at which the Binding cloud is usually casted, units will just run a couple of spaces out of the cloud and then start shooting from range again. I liked the original posters idea though, to have ranged units not do any damage when in the cloud, although I guess the spell cost would have to increased - Ling armies would tear everything apart. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On December 18 2012 21:58 Berceno wrote: who cares how was the spell the first day?? I'm happy with blinding cloud, now terran should spread his tanks and not make a big ball of 15tanks clumped I like your enthusiasm, but Idra himself has recently said that Terrans can't mech with Vipers being in the unit pool. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9404 Posts
On December 18 2012 21:58 Berceno wrote: who cares how was the spell the first day?? I'm happy with blinding cloud, now terran should spread his tanks and not make a big ball of 15tanks clumped Well you can kinda do that and you still get raped. If you have to split out perfectly all the time then we almost have the same issue as playing against the imbalanced 9 range instant fungal growth; Terrans has to play perfectly to win and it requires way more skills to win with terran than with zerg. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
Basically, I don't think there's any point in trying to make cloud good against Bio. It's a good spell against other things, and it works well as it is in my opinion. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 21:58 Berceno wrote: who cares how was the spell the first day?? I'm happy with blinding cloud, now terran should spread his tanks and not make a big ball of 15tanks clumped In case you did not catch it, I'm proposing a buff to Viper so that bio units don't move by themself from Blinding Cloud. So please, mad Zerg player, think before you just post something. Also, the note about mechanical vs bio units being affected by Blinding Cloud is just a note. If someone, then Blizzard at least should care how units designed by themselves are being used. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:04 DemigodcelpH wrote: I like your enthusiasm, but Idra himself has recently said that Terrans can't mech with Vipers being in the unit pool. If Idra, a guy who has never been wrong, said that... ok, I'm convinced. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:06 MilesTeg wrote: If Idra, a guy who has never been wrong, said that... ok, I'm convinced. He's human just like anyone else, however when professional Zerg players are saying you can't mech vs Zerg then you likely can't mech vs Zerg. This is a beta. It's good that we're getting feedback like this from higher sources. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:06 MilesTeg wrote: If Idra, a guy who has never been wrong, said that... ok, I'm convinced. Nononooo, if Idra, our Idra said that Terran can't do something, you know that really something is wrong lol.. :D | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:10 DemigodcelpH wrote: He's human just like anyone else, however when professional Zerg players are saying you can't mech vs Zerg then you likely can't mech vs Zerg. This is a beta. It's good that we're getting feedback like this from higher sources. Don't know if his opinion is accurate. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:04 DemigodcelpH wrote: I like your enthusiasm, but Idra himself has recently said that Terrans can't mech with Vipers being in the unit pool. I hardly believe that to be true.. Mech can make it very hard for zerg to get to hive comfortable and a couple vikings + tank spread do really well to prevent blinding cloud from being too bad. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:11 Everlong wrote: Nononooo, if Idra, our Idra said that Terran can't do something, you know that really something is wrong lol.. :D He has a tendency to jump to conclusions. I wonder how much he's played with it before saying that. You can't just quote Idra like anything he says is an established fact. In my experience Mech is very viable, and Bio/Mech is in my opinion the strongest option for Terran vs Zerg. Anyway that's not really the issue here.I thought the topic was about Bio. We're all just answering a guy who just took this as an opportunity to whine... (my bad). | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:05 Wildmoon wrote: It's still effective agaisnt bio anyway because AI automatically moves forward to reach the range which is not what terran want to do. Who wanna hug Ultra? Indeed, how would it be considered a nerf for bio if they didnt immediatly run forward towards their doom when under blinding cloud? When I had it happen to me I was seriously considering shooting my own bio for being retarded. The zerg already took care of that, so it wasn't necesary, but I really dont consider it a pro they walk right into the enemy, back is the direction they should be going. Maybe blinding cloud needs to be adjusted to keep mech relevant, but frankly, atm I really don't see the issue. It forces terrans to make nice positions, and vipers are squishy. Bit ago I was watching a zerg HotS stream and he attacked with blinding cloud a mech armies forces, and proceeded to destroy them. Round two the terran spread out his tanks alot better, missile turrets in between them, etc, and suddenly he traded fine with the zerg (especially considering how badly he lost round 1). | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:28 Sissors wrote: Indeed, how would it be considered a nerf for bio if they didnt immediatly run forward towards their doom when under blinding cloud? When I had it happen to me I was seriously considering shooting my own bio for being retarded. The zerg already took care of that, so it wasn't necesary, but I really dont consider it a pro they walk right into the enemy, back is the direction they should be going. Maybe blinding cloud needs to be adjusted to keep mech relevant, but frankly, atm I really don't see the issue. It forces terrans to make nice positions, and vipers are squishy. Bit ago I was watching a zerg HotS stream and he attacked with blinding cloud a mech armies forces, and proceeded to destroy them. Round two the terran spread out his tanks alot better, missile turrets in between them, etc, and suddenly he traded fine with the zerg (especially considering how badly he lost round 1). Yeah, I agree that Viper vs Mech currently forces positional play and there seems to be nothing wrong with it. It might be a bit too strong, time will tell. But it seems that with the new medivac and widow mine usage, mid-game bio pushes are incredibly hard to stop for Zerg. So now we have mine replacing tank and Viper not countering bio in TvZ, as was intended. | ||
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justinpal
United States3810 Posts
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:28 Sissors wrote: Indeed, how would it be considered a nerf for bio if they didnt immediatly run forward towards their doom when under blinding cloud? When I had it happen to me I was seriously considering shooting my own bio for being retarded. The zerg already took care of that, so it wasn't necesary, but I really dont consider it a pro they walk right into the enemy, back is the direction they should be going. Maybe blinding cloud needs to be adjusted to keep mech relevant, but frankly, atm I really don't see the issue. It forces terrans to make nice positions, and vipers are squishy. Bit ago I was watching a zerg HotS stream and he attacked with blinding cloud a mech armies forces, and proceeded to destroy them. Round two the terran spread out his tanks alot better, missile turrets in between them, etc, and suddenly he traded fine with the zerg (especially considering how badly he lost round 1). I think it would even be a buff imo to change AI so that bio forces won't move forward under the cloud. lol | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:33 justinpal wrote: Thors in any number destroy vipers so fast. The issue here is, that even though Vipers get destroyed, they will cast Blinding Clouds and you will lose whole your army and trade extremly ineffective. I guess its "ok" for Zerg to lose few Vipers and kill whole Tank/Thor army? edit: Anyways back on topic, I agree that it migh be even a buff if units affected by Blinding Cloud would't run away, haha.. :-) | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
And less talk about idra please, he's irrelevant and his opinion really shouldn't taken as a stone tablet. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
i heard him saying it live on stream. what he said was sth. like : "mech MIGHT not be viable with the viper being in the pool. but then again people playing the beta are bad and no one builds vikings or ghosts, so mech might still be viable". so once T start figuring out to build 5 ghosts once hive started mech should still be viable. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:41 NarAliya wrote: Doesn't the Binding Cloud dissipate after the Vipers are killed though? And less talk about idra please, he's irrelevant and his opinion really shouldn't taken as a stone tablet. No, it stays for whole 7 seconds (I think it's 7).. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:50 Everlong wrote: No, it stays for whole 7 seconds (I think it's 7).. Ok I think that will be a problem should Binding Cloud be tweaked to counter the interference of the A.I. on Bio. Since the Viper doesn't attack anyway, shouldn't it really be a channeling spell? A spell that cuts enemy DPS to 0 when under the cloud has resounding consequences on a SC2 battle no matter how long it lasts. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:43 Decendos wrote: i heard him saying it live on stream. what he said was sth. like : "mech MIGHT not be viable with the viper being in the pool. but then again people playing the beta are bad and no one builds vikings or ghosts, so mech might still be viable". so once T start figuring out to build 5 ghosts once hive started mech should still be viable. Currently I don't consider ghosts to be very relevant against vipers. If he also got a shitload of infestors, okay. But until that happens I rather use vikings, they actually kill the Vipers quite fast. Ok I think that will be a problem should Binding Cloud be tweaked to counter the interference of the A.I. on Bio. Since the Viper doesn't attack anyway, shouldn't it really be a channeling spell? A spell that cuts enemy DPS to 0 when under the cloud has resounding consequences on a SC2 battle no matter how long it lasts. Just deleting them from the game is a preferable solution to making them pointless. That said I really don't see the issue with vipers atm. Maybe they need tweaking, I just don't know yet. However forcing them to channel is stupid. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:54 Sissors wrote: Currently I don't consider ghosts to be very relevant against vipers. If he also got a shitload of infestors, okay. But until that happens I rather use vikings, they actually kill the Vipers quite fast. I tried Ghosts against Vipers and it's really hard to snipe them in time and even harder to EMP them.. I find it really difficult to aim with EMP compared to Storm/Fungal, etc.. Anyone having similar problem? Anyways, Vipers still cast their Clouds any my army still dissapears, even if it is spread. I'm thinking like Widow Mines/Turrets between Tanks are going to help, but man, that is so much to do and singe unit forces all this.. :-) | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
Idra is the #1 ranked player in the beta, so his feedback is really valuable. He doesn't play Terran and has a history of advocating Zerg buffs, so you can't call bias on this. While he's not omnipotent these kind of statements from the highest ranked player shouldn't be overlooked especially when it doesn't concern his own race. We're in beta, and our primary purpose is feedback. On December 18 2012 22:11 Everlong wrote: Nononooo, if Idra, our Idra said that Terran can't do something, you know that really something is wrong lol.. :D Also this. Normally you'd imagine it's one of those "if hell froze over" things... On December 18 2012 22:05 Wildmoon wrote: It's still effective agaisnt bio anyway because AI automatically moves forward to reach the range which is not what terran want to do. Who wanna hug Ultra? I'm a bit confused from the source in OP. If a group of infantry is standing still and not en route will they automatically run when a cloud is placed? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
So to outline the idea better (really poorly written), I think that the effect should be changed from "reduces all ranges to melee" to "reduces all damage done to 0, if the target was not in melee range" - so basically units try to shoot, but miss because they are blind  Bio is just one example. Roaches, Hydras and Stalkers are similiar examples, as they will also very quickly dodge the cloud. Though I agree, that running towards an opponent is often still something good, it is in a lot of cases not a significant advantage as the distance isn't that big on average. I don't think that it is a useless tool against such units. I just think that it is not working out like intended. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:54 Sissors wrote: Just deleting them from the game is a preferable solution to making them pointless. That said I really don't see the issue with vipers atm. Maybe they need tweaking, I just don't know yet. However forcing them to channel is stupid. How would 'forcing' them to channel make them obsolete? This is about increasing the skill ceiling for SC2 rather than happily spamming spells without thinking - at this current stage Binding Cloud is one such spell. Noone likes any strategy or spell that requires a higher amount of skill to defend against than it does to execute it. If Vipers were Channelling:
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:07 Big J wrote: Ok, so out of a very reliant source I know that the OP of the battle.net thread was kind of tired when writing said thread. Haha, I see.. :D | ||
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ETisME
12481 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:10 DemigodcelpH wrote: He's human just like anyone else, however when professional Zerg players are saying you can't mech vs Zerg then you likely can't mech vs Zerg. This is a beta. It's good that we're getting feedback like this from higher sources. he also said stephano would get figured out and start losing but we all saw him rising instead as well as one of the fewer zergs to go for infestors style while the old school (including most koreans and idra) stayed on muta ling baneling | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:07 NarAliya wrote: How would 'forcing' them to channel make them obsolete? This is about increasing the skill ceiling for SC2 rather than happily spamming spells without thinking - at this current stage Binding Cloud is one such spell. Noone likes any strategy or spell that requires a higher amount of skill to defend against than it does to execute it. If Vipers were Channelling: If vipers were channeling you had a stupid all-or-nothing spell where generally they don't do anything, since my vikings just pick them immediatly off. Without enormous health boost they just die. Or for whatever reason I don't have vikings present and I got overrun since they are doing permanent blinding clouds on my army. But in 90% of the situations those vipers just die directly. That doesn't force micro from any player, since dead units dont require micro. so basically units try to shoot, but miss because they are blind So basically a gigantic boost to vipers vs pretty much every unit since they are all firing on units they cant hit instead of units they can hit. Only melee units will still do anything. But now some people want viper boosted, while others want to have it nerfed. Seems reasonably balanced to me. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:18 Sissors wrote: If vipers were channeling you had a stupid all-or-nothing spell where generally they don't do anything, since my vikings just pick them immediatly off. Without enormous health boost they just die. I don't think you understand the concept of evolving strategy. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
If blinding cloud beats tanks too hard the simple solution is just a small area nerf or even better, a small range nerf on casting it so you can actually prevent it by having your vikings/thors or even widow mines up front a bit. Alternatively maybe a small energy increase so vipers can't cast two blinding clouds would be good. Consume could get a small buff to compensate for higher energy needs. I feel this will eventually be overcome by more careful tank and viking positioning though, which would be great as you would finally see some of that important tank positioning BW mech is known for. Units automatically moving out of the cloud is a bit odd but does make the fungal + blinding cloud play very cool, which is more a ZvP option but still. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:22 NarAliya wrote: I don't think you understand the concept of evolving strategy. So explain me the concept of 'evolving strategy'. Maybe at the same time give marines 10 range so toss and zerg can do some evolving around that. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:18 Sissors wrote: So basically a gigantic boost to vipers vs pretty much every unit since they are all firing on units they cant hit instead of units they can hit. Only melee units will still do anything. No. Medivacs got a gigantic boost. This would be a buff to the viper. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:23 Sissors wrote: So explain me the concept of 'evolving strategy'. Maybe at the same time give marines 10 range so toss and zerg can do some evolving around that. I presented logical arguments as to why a Channelling Binding Cloud would introduce a levelling playing field without shifting favour in any direction. You instead ignored it and started screaming 'OH BUT I HAVE VIKINGS PEW PEW!!1!q11'.. wtf do you think the Zerg player is doing whilst you are trying to kill his Vipers? Thumb up the ass? Why do you think I presented Positional play for the Zerg to take advantage of, both in where he places his Vipers and where the core of his army is? If they die, its his fault for not shifting his AA to a better position or neutralizing the Vikings beforehand - not because Vikings auto-counter Vipers. Vipers already got a health buff, so they won't die in one shot now. As for your 10 range marines, irrelevant and a completely extreme and bad attempt to refute my earlier point. | ||
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sweetbabyjesus
Denmark168 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:23 Sissors wrote: So explain me the concept of 'evolving strategy'. Maybe at the same time give marines 10 range so toss and zerg can do some evolving around that. Haha, I had a giggle from that one. Well said.  | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
It'd make it better against bio, but not as effective against mech as splash would still hurt you. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
I presented logical arguments as to why a Channelling Binding Cloud would introduce a levelling playing field without shifting favour in any direction. You instead ignored it and started screaming 'OH BUT I HAVE VIKINGS PEW PEW!!1!q11'.. wtf do you think the Zerg player is doing whilst you are trying to kill his Vipers? Thumb up the ass? Why do you think I presented Positional play for the Zerg to take advantage of, both in where he places his Vipers and where the core of his army is? If they die, its his fault for not shifting his AA to a better position or neutralizing the Vikings beforehand - not because Vikings auto-counter Vipers. Vipers already got a health buff, so they won't die in one shot now. As for your 10 range marines, irrelevant and a completely extreme and bad attempt to refute my earlier point. Maybe you should look up the range of blinding cloud, vikings and zerg AA. Vikings simply kill them, no positional play is going to change that. Aditionally the best place to put your vipers would always be right on top of your army. That doesn't promote micro for anyone above bronze. The further away from your main army they are, the easier they are for vikings to pick off. You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist in the first place. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:35 Sissors wrote: Maybe you should look up the range of blinding cloud, vikings and zerg AA. Vikings simply kill them, no positional play is going to change that. Aditionally the best place to put your vipers would always be right on top of your army. That doesn't promote micro for anyone above bronze. The further away from your main army they are, the easier they are for vikings to pick off. You are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist in the first place. -_- Binding Cloud = Range 9 Viking AA = Range 9 Hydras = Range 6 Hydra's are obviously going to be in between Vipers and the Terran army that has Binding cloud on them (otherwise what would be the point of Using binding cloud). They are close enough to shoot the Vikings before they get to the Vipers - if the Hydras are controlled well enough. If the Vikings are smart and flank instead, they can obviously just snipe the Vipers - IF the Zerg doesn't have any air or doesn't reposition AA. Already in this simple example, one can visualise continual shifts and repositioning, focus firing, stopping the channeling and moving vipers to a different position etc etc. That is my idea of evolving strategy. | ||
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Uni1987
Netherlands642 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9404 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:23 Markwerf wrote: I hardly believe that to be true.. Mech can make it very hard for zerg to get to hive comfortable and a couple vikings + tank spread do really well to prevent blinding cloud from being too bad. i can confirm it. Idra played a terran player on the stream and the terran player asked Idra how he could make mech viable, and that he had tried to split up his tanks. Idra responded that he didn't think mech was viable against roach/hydra/viper. He could be wrong, but I think mech is currently UP vs zerg right now. I think they should consider reducing the AOE og the cloud. | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:07 Big J wrote: Ok, so out of a very reliant source I know that the OP of the battle.net thread was kind of tired when writing said thread. So to outline the idea better (really poorly written), I think that the effect should be changed from "reduces all ranges to melee" to "reduces all damage done to 0, if the target was not in melee range" - so basically units try to shoot, but miss because they are blind Bio is just one example. Roaches, Hydras and Stalkers are similiar examples, as they will also very quickly dodge the cloud. Though I agree, that running towards an opponent is often still something good, it is in a lot of cases not a significant advantage as the distance isn't that big on average. I don't think that it is a useless tool against such units. I just think that it is not working out like intended. I dont think, there needs to be any more explanation to this, because BigJ just nailed it. This was btw. the way Blizzard introduced to the spell from the beginning | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 18 2012 23:59 Uni1987 wrote: NarAliya: Why in earth should we take you seriously when you disregard the opinion of a professional player, and also insult him while you are at it. Who the fuck are you? If you wanna suck off idra, there is a fan page for that - not this thread. Calling someone irrelevant isn't insulting them. As for who am I, I'm a postgrad who can't play often due to many responsibilities. Who are you? Another kid who regards people who play games all day as worthy of worship? And if you can't take me seriously simply because I don't share the same reverence of your idol idra, then I'm really not the one being stupid here. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:09 ch4ppi wrote: I dont think, there needs to be any more explanation to this, because BigJ just nailed it. This was btw. the way Blizzard introduced to the spell from the beginning damage to zero / missing is very unfriendly for spectators. You see all these units firing but it's very hard to tell what effect each has. The units not firing at all looks much better. I don't think there is a problem at all to be honest, in it's current state it really rewards combining blinding cloud with fungal except against tanks. Also getting a surround of protoss circling itself with forcefields is quite interesting in combination with blinding cloud now. If it turns out to be too strong the viper can easily be tweaked (lower hp again, smaller aoe, shorter range etc.) but in principal the spell feels fine and the viper is by far the best addition to the game in HotS imo. \ Blinding cloud being good against mech and fungal being good against bio is completely is good isn't it? Diversity in playstyle for zerg depending on what terran does makes the game more interesting | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:16 Markwerf wrote: Blinding cloud being good against mech and fungal being good against bio is completely is good isn't it? Diversity in playstyle for zerg depending on what terran does makes the game more interesting My personal problem with Binding Cloud as this point is that it doesn't take much 'skill' to execute and I feel this is what needs to be cut out of the game.. Otherwise its Infestors-imba all over again. Clicking the Cloud and then sitting back in my opinion is more unfriendly than not having units fire when under the cloud. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:19 NarAliya wrote: My personal problem with Binding Cloud as this point is that it doesn't take much 'skill' to execute and I feel this is what needs to be cut out of the game.. Otherwise its Infestors-imba all over again. Clicking the Cloud and then sitting back in my opinion is more unfriendly than not having units fire when under the cloud. Maybe you are right The good news is : Blizzard can now buff mech so that it can work against toss Because now zerg has a tool to fight mech Buffed tanks please ! So it's just cool ! | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
As far as with Mech, they may eventually judge it to be too strong. It's hard to say. If you can use Widow Mines to protect the flank from which the Vipers are coming, you can do pretty good (they will still get off at least a few spells). Defensively you can take the time to split and do pretty alright if you have something to snipe the Vipers like Turrets. Offensively it is not easy to hit timings though, you have to move very slowly across the map. It's just not possible to move in a big clump and try and split when the fight starts if your Zerg opponent is correctly threatening the engagement at any point. You really have to leap frog a bit, use Widow Mines to spot their army and slow it down, etc. If they judge it to be too powerful it will be, IMO, because one bad trade with Blinding Cloud against Mech is almost 100% game over. | ||
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samwise_the_brave
Germany11 Posts
[QUOTE]On December 18 2012 22:50 Everlong wrote: [QUOTE]On December 18 2012 22:41 NarAliya wrote: Doesn't the Binding Cloud dissipate after the Vipers are killed though? And less talk about idra please, he's irrelevant and his opinion really shouldn't taken as a stone tablet.[/QUOTE] No, it stays for whole 7 seconds (I think it's 7).. [/QUOTE] 14 ingame seconds  i had the same problems with vipers as mechg recently even though i had a decent spread and vikiings plus raven in my army compositon i was completly raped by a roach / hydra army in that fight u just cant kill vipers fast enough and once the cloud is there u have lost | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:02 Hider wrote: i can confirm it. Idra played a terran player on the stream and the terran player asked Idra how he could make mech viable, and that he had tried to split up his tanks. Idra responded that he didn't think mech was viable against roach/hydra/viper. He could be wrong, but I think mech is currently UP vs zerg right now. I think they should consider reducing the AOE og the cloud. Agreed, and it's definitely quite sad because I love the Viper. There's also significant conclusive evidence that mech is also utterly nonviable vs. Protoss too. At this point they really should consider reverting the tank nerfs considering these were largely triggered by 2010 maps. | ||
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Uni1987
Netherlands642 Posts
On December 19 2012 00:16 NarAliya wrote: If you wanna suck off idra, there is a fan page for that - not this thread. Calling someone irrelevant isn't insulting them. As for who am I, I'm a postgrad who can't play often due to many responsibilities. Who are you? Another kid who regards people who play games all day as worthy of worship? And if you can't take me seriously simply because I don't share the same reverence of your idol idra, then I'm really not the one being stupid here. Oh, you got a degree in starcraft 2? I don't think so, thus making his opinion of higher value than yours. I coulnd't care less about you being a postgrad, nor does it apply on this discussion but nice of you to bring it up, narcissistic much? Of course I cannot take you seriously, it's like saying "Oh Lionel Messi, what a terrible shot, you should have done it that way!". I do not revere Idra, I simply respect the opinion of a professional. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:26 kcdc wrote: Do units really run out automatically or do people just move-click them out quickly? If it's really automatic, that's silly. Their range is reduced to melee, and they automatically run into attack range like any other unit. They don't automatically run out of the Blinding Cloud necessarily (that would be silly). If they get into Melee range before they leave the Blinding Cloud, they will stay there. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:26 kcdc wrote: Do units really run out automatically or do people just move-click them out quickly? If it's really automatic, that's silly. Actually i love the idea of a blind marine running, totally in panic, in the arms of the swarm <3 | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:26 Uni1987 wrote: Oh, you got a degree in starcraft 2? I don't think so, thus making his opinion of higher value than yours. I coulnd't care less about you being a postgrad, nor does it apply on this discussion but nice of you to bring it up, narcissistic much? Of course I cannot take you seriously, it's like saying "Oh Lionel Messi, what a terrible shot, you should have done it that way!". I do not revere Idra, I simply respect the opinion of a professional. Are you actually an idiot or are you just pretending to be one? You asked me who I was, so I told you. That was even meant to cement the fact that I had no SC2 'qualifications' aside being a casual, in case you tried to use it against me - which you ended up doing anyway because you lack reading comprehension. Football and SC2 are 2 VERY different things rofl. Gotta love people who try to inflate the importance of SC2 by comparing it to a world wide sport that has been around for at least a century. I have my own personal opinions of idra, if you want I can have a PM conversation with you. But I'll not have 'idra said this and that' mar this thread, hence my original comments. User was banned for this post. | ||
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SuperYo1000
United States880 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:26 Uni1987 wrote: Oh, you got a degree in starcraft 2? I don't think so, thus making his opinion of higher value than yours. I coulnd't care less about you being a postgrad, nor does it apply on this discussion but nice of you to bring it up, narcissistic much? Of course I cannot take you seriously, it's like saying "Oh Lionel Messi, what a terrible shot, you should have done it that way!". I do not revere Idra, I simply respect the opinion of a professional. Well then why dont you respect his opinion to NOT take Idras opinion as fact? This is the thing about Idra. Half the time he is very analytical and makes alot of sense, The other half he is like a 6 year old throwing a tantrum. I for one cant stand idra and IMO, like many others, do not and will not be forced into agreement with Idras nut huggers to share your Idols OPINION | ||
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krell
United States109 Posts
However, it seems blizzard hates reapplying succesful units. IE, Swarm Host vs Lurker, "Hell Bat" (still can't get over that name) vs the Firebat. Guardian vs Broodlord. At one point they were even going to name the Carrier a "Tempest" (this was pre-WoL beta.) The tempest in that form was basically a carrier, just slightly different. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
I think the solution is a ghost buff, make snipe viable again and make it strong against viper. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:50 emc wrote: if it didn't effect mechanical, the spell would be completely useless against protoss. The way it is now is it's an incredibly deadly ability in late game, and I like that, it's a new age defiler. I do think the spell is a little too powerful against mech because mech is so slow and positional, at least protoss can mitigate it by moving. I think the solution is a ghost buff, make snipe viable again and make it strong against viper. Or buff tanks as there is now a zerg hardcounter to it | ||
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Decendos
Germany1338 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:51 Insoleet wrote: Or buff tanks as there is now a zerg hardcounter to it as long as it comes late enough thats fine with me as zerg. so as an upgrade. | ||
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HumpingHydra
Canada97 Posts
Anyway, I feel that if you're aware that marines and marauders will rush out from under the cloud, you can cast cloud so that large chunks of bio will rush forward into lings and roaches, or whatever your unit composition is. AND, if you're really on the ball, you can move your army to be at the edge of the cloud, forcing the terran units to go "melee" yours. This, in combination with essentially removing tanks from play is a pretty potent spell, that will be outmaneuvered by the AI if you're not smarter than it. I'll just throw my opinion in here about the rest of the crapstorm that is this thread. Everyone's opinion is worth assessing, but don't disregard a player like Idra when he says something. Vikings probibally do seem like an appropriate counter to vipers. It's hard to get an engagement where viper hydra can kill vikings before vikings can shoot down many vipers. This is simply due to the fact if you have vikings just ahead of the seige line, you can't cloud the tanks without your hydras getting nailed by siege volleys, or your vipers getting shredded by missiles. | ||
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lonelyPotato
Australia158 Posts
I hope Blinding Cloud doesn't phase Mech out of ZvT, I really like it how Terran has 2 options. | ||
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BlueKatz
68 Posts
vs Bio you force enemies to run around wasting DPS and prevent them from having a good concave (it's good if he runs into you, he won't have big concave advantage, also baneling) vs Tank it's good but not game breaking: Viper costs 200 gas and can use Blinding Cloud twice at max energy. You can just simply un-siege - sure it's not as good as Siege mode Tank but you don't lose it Really, Abduct might be better if he goes Mech Mech is not even that good in TvZ... Tank is still the same | ||
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Uni1987
Netherlands642 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:46 NarAliya wrote: Are you actually an idiot or are you just pretending to be one? You asked me who I was, so I told you. That was even meant to cement the fact that I had no SC2 'qualifications' aside being a casual, in case you tried to use it against me - which you ended up doing anyway because you lack reading comprehension. Football and SC2 are 2 VERY different things rofl. Gotta love people who try to inflate the importance of SC2 by comparing it to a world wide sport that has been around for at least a century. I have my own personal opinions of idra, if you want I can have a PM conversation with you. But I'll not have 'idra said this and that' mar this thread, hence my original comments. You are a nobody in the scene, and like you said, have no time to play because you are to damn important in your daily life. What does that say about your opinion? Again, I wasn't praising Idra as a person, but as a professional player. The difference of the scene doesn't matter, the fact remains he plays this as his job thus his opinion remains a professional one unlike yours. Great move though, trying to disregard the entire argument because my analogy was somewhat stupid. I could have used 100 others, importance doesn't apply here. By fighting this argument, you merely prove my point having a narcissistic personality. You won't get it anyway because of your insanely inflated ego. Have at it obnoxious pety man, don't fall of that postgrad pedestal of yours. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On December 19 2012 01:56 HumpingHydra wrote: Vikings probibally do seem like an appropriate counter to vipers. It's hard to get an engagement where viper hydra can kill vikings before vikings can shoot down many vipers. This is simply due to the fact if you have vikings just ahead of the seige line, you can't cloud the tanks without your hydras getting nailed by siege volleys, or your vipers getting shredded by missiles. This is exactly my point vs the channeling idea. Right now vipers are already shot down quickly by vikings, but only after they at least dispersed some clouds, then the swarm comes in, with possible surviving vipers making a second pass to cloud the remaining terran army. Now if you let them channel, they simply die horribly after 2 seconds, and the channeling is over. I actually like the idea of giving zerg a good counter to mech if that means we can boost siege tanks a bit. However as a terran player who primarily plays (bio) mech, I just don't think we can say now the vipers would need such a huge nerf by making it channeling. Also looking at streams the conclusion I get is that terrans simply got to relearn how to position siege tanks. If we have had that, we can have a look at small changes for balance, but not such a huge nerf. (And really saying that it allows for interesting positioning is just as overdone as just saying other people should adapt, you got the same positioning without forcing them to die while channeling). At the same time I also don't see blinding cloud as being so weak it would require the huge buff of all enemy ranged units doing effectively 0 damage, instead of them fighting at melee range and at least doing damage. | ||
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marcjpb
Canada64 Posts
I dont see why this is an issue. You throw a blind cloud. Every unit under it act like melee. so yes they will move out towards their target to attack if any attack move was made, like any melee unit would do. Blind cloud does 1 thing : force movement. If he dash towards you, you will have a much nicer concave then you would have before the cloud. If he decide to retreat, you will get free kill and back at square one. If blizzard change the way AI works under the cloud this will create 2 things 1) Weird rule that can and will be exploited. 2) Will destroy no pro level play. At low level, you can make 8 mutas and kill 10-15 workers before they react. Low level player will lose ton of army that would just sit there under the cloud with their dick in their hand because the cloud make them dumb as a tool box. As for Idra, not a fan or a hater but is opinion should be very valuable. | ||
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TheManInBlack
Nigeria266 Posts
On December 19 2012 02:38 Uni1987 wrote: You are a nobody in the scene, and like you said, have no time to play because you are to damn important in your daily life. What does that say about your opinion? Again, I wasn't praising Idra as a person, but as a professional player. The difference of the scene doesn't matter, the fact remains he plays this as his job thus his opinion remains a professional one unlike yours. Great move though, trying to disregard the entire argument because my analogy was somewhat stupid. I could have used 100 others, importance doesn't apply here. By fighting this argument, you merely prove my point having a narcissistic personality. You won't get it anyway because of your insanely inflated ego. Have at it obnoxious pety man, don't fall of that postgrad pedestal of yours. ![[image loading]](http://www.clipartof.com/images/emoticons/xsmall2/2003_rolling_eyes_backwards.gif) I'm tired of you, you clearly can't put forward a coherent response without resorting to personal attacks. Stay out of the thread please and allow us more mature posters to discuss this issue in peace. @ Sissors I thought I already maintained that channelling was not a nerf. Like the above poster said above you, it forces continued movement and positioning - in my case also with channeling. I'm not too sure about his comments about Hydras getting shredded before clouds are thrown down though. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 19 2012 02:57 Sissors wrote: This is exactly my point vs the channeling idea. Right now vipers are already shot down quickly by vikings, but only after they at least dispersed some clouds, then the swarm comes in, with possible surviving vipers making a second pass to cloud the remaining terran army. Now if you let them channel, they simply die horribly after 2 seconds, and the channeling is over. I actually like the idea of giving zerg a good counter to mech if that means we can boost siege tanks a bit. However as a terran player who primarily plays (bio) mech, I just don't think we can say now the vipers would need such a huge nerf by making it channeling. Also looking at streams the conclusion I get is that terrans simply got to relearn how to position siege tanks. If we have had that, we can have a look at small changes for balance, but not such a huge nerf. (And really saying that it allows for interesting positioning is just as overdone as just saying other people should adapt, you got the same positioning without forcing them to die while channeling). At the same time I also don't see blinding cloud as being so weak it would require the huge buff of all enemy ranged units doing effectively 0 damage, instead of them fighting at melee range and at least doing damage. Sorry, but I think you completly missunderstand the idea that I originally put out. Any unit in melee range would still do the normal damage. Only the ones that are at melee range but don't have an opponent at melee range would stay in the cloud and keep on shooting, instead of running out of the Cloud by themselves, trying to get in range again. Any unit that keeps on fighting even though it is in the cloud right now, would keep on fighting with such a change. But the ones that dont fight need to be pulled out of the cloud manually instead of running out automatically. | ||
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Morton
United States152 Posts
However how often do you just have units sitting there, with no commands? 99% of the time you are doing SOMETHING with your units, either attacking, retreating, splitting, patrolling, etc. unless players find it effective to use the stop command to let the ai retreat from the blinding cloud (most likely not, as otherwise people would do it against siege tanks) as for mech being too hard countered by the viper, from what i have seen i think the key using vikings in conjuction with widow mines and tanks to keep the zerg out of range. annnnnd as for NarAliya and Uni1987, please, neither of you are saying......anything......like at all, related to the topic :/ | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
(Then I see it as a nerf to blinding cloud tbh, units rushing to the zergs is generally not what I want to see them doing). @Nar, as the poster I quoted said, right now it will already be hard enough to throw down blinding clouds before being killed by vikings. You want that they have to stay something like 7 seconds alive to be as useful as they are now, which is virtually impossible (under equal army conditions), so I do consider that a nerf. 7 seconds within viking range is enormously long. And why would their be positioning if the best place for those vipers will always be directly on top of the hydras? They have no reason at all to move, so the vikings have no reason at all to do anything besides frontal assault. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:16 Morton wrote: one thing that is kind of important that is getting overlooked is that units will ONLY move out of the blinding cloud when they have no other commands or units. The same thing occurs in the case of siege tanks, units with no orders standing inside the siege tank radius will move back out of range. However how often do you just have units sitting there, with no commands? 99% of the time you are doing SOMETHING with your units, either attacking, retreating, splitting, patrolling, etc. unless players find it effective to use the stop command to let the ai retreat from the blinding cloud (most likely not, as otherwise people would do it against siege tanks) as for mech being too hard countered by the viper, from what i have seen i think the key using vikings in conjuction with widow mines and tanks to keep the zerg out of range. annnnnd as for NarAliya and Uni1987, please, neither of you are saying......anything......like at all, related to the topic :/ I am with this guy, this is a non-issue. The fact that only idle units move out of the cloud automatically makes me super not care what they do. When was the last time we worried about idle units and if they move out of AOEs? The mech stuff might figure it out. Zoning out those vipers will be key, but the nerf will have to be based on how many vipers people end up getting in a game. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:16 Sissors wrote: Okay, but I am worried that if a unit is shooting at some unit at a range (and doing 0 damage), it wont switch when it gets a melee target, so it keeps doing 0 damage for eternity. If it automatically switches to the melee units I retract my comments completely Damnit, you're right, targetswitching would be a problem with this workaround... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg. Stupid, smart units... I guess you would have to manipulate the AI directly under Blinding Cloud then, to achieve such a behavior... On December 19 2012 03:24 Plansix wrote: I am with this guy, this is a non-issue. The fact that only idle units move out of the cloud automatically makes me super not care what they do. When was the last time we worried about idle units and if they move out of AOEs? Any unit on attack command moves out? Basically any unit that is not on hold position and in aggro range of something moves out! | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
Its true that "its working as intended" in that the AI recognizes melee range, so it runs to the unit to try to get into range. But because the size of the spell, literally a couple of steps and the unit is out of the cloud. So in effect you spend 100 energy to cast a spell that is only effective for about a second against virtually all units. The only unit it is effective against is the siege tank because it cannot move. Its a nifty idea to use infestors to chain fungals with cloud but you spend a ridiculous amount of supply and gas on a extremely paper-thin army composition ... laughable strat at best. For this reason I have stopped going viper builds. Abduct is a retarded spell so I never use it on principle, and as above, cloud is pretty much useless. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:24 Big J wrote: Damnit, you're right, targetswitching would be a problem with this workaround... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg. Stupid, smart units... I guess you would have to manipulate the AI directly under Blinding Cloud then, to achieve such a behavior... Any unit on attack command moves out? Basically any unit that is not on hold position and in aggro range of something moves out! That is the part that is unclear to me. Idle units will attack anything in range, but will also back away from a unit they cannot attack if they are taking damage(see zealot vs banshee). If the unit given an attack move command and they are attacking, do they move out if they are hit with blinding cloud while firing? Do they just walk through if they are attacking nothing? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:30 Plansix wrote: That is the part that is unclear to me. Idle units will attack anything in range, but will also back away from a unit they cannot attack if they are taking damage(see zealot vs banshee). If the unit given an attack move command and they are attacking, do they move out if they are hit with blinding cloud while firing? Do they just walk through if they are attacking nothing? Generally for attack move: If a unit is not in range to attack, but in aggro range it will try to get in range to attack. So a Roach that is in melee range of a Zergling and gets hit by a Cloud won't change behaviour. A Roach that is 5range away from a zergling and gets hit by a Cloud, will run towards the zergling until it is either in melee range under the cloud, or within 4range outside of the cloud. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:30 Plansix wrote: That is the part that is unclear to me. Idle units will attack anything in range, but will also back away from a unit they cannot attack if they are taking damage(see zealot vs banshee). If the unit given an attack move command and they are attacking, do they move out if they are hit with blinding cloud while firing? Do they just walk through if they are attacking nothing? to make it easy, just think that the unit will act like a zergling for the couple of seconds it is under the cloud. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:38 Big J wrote: Generally for attack move: If a unit is not in range to attack, but in aggro range it will try to get in range to attack. So a Roach that is in melee range of a Zergling and gets hit by a Cloud won't change behaviour. A Roach that is 5range away from a zergling and gets hit by a Cloud, will run towards the zergling until it is either in melee range under the cloud, or within 4range outside of the cloud. So what is the problem? Lets say I am the controler of the roach. I told him to move until he can attack. He moves, starts attacking a unit and then gets hit by blinding cloud. Now he can't attack because he range is melee, and like a good roach, he moves forward to try to get into melee range. The ability does not make units retarted or root them, it just makes them act like melee units. I have seen it used on bio and it seems really amazing when used with banelings/zerglings. This is a non-issue for me. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:44 Plansix wrote: So what is the problem? Lets say I am the controler of the roach. I told him to move until he can attack. He moves, starts attacking a unit and then gets hit by blinding cloud. Now he can't attack because he range is melee, and like a good roach, he moves forward to try to get into melee range. The ability does not make units retarted or root them, it just makes them act like melee units. I have seen it used on bio and it seems really amazing when used with banelings/zerglings. This is a non-issue for me. Let me add something here: Now he can't attack because he range is melee, and like a good roach, he moves forward to try to get into melee range or until it is out of the Blinding Cloud and regains it 4range attack. Which takes a 3speed roach that is standing in the middle of a 2radius Cloud probably way less than 0.5seconds. So the effect of the Cloud on the roach is a statistical loss of less than 4damage and a small repositioning. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:52 Big J wrote: Let me add something here: Now he can't attack because he range is melee, and like a good roach, he moves forward to try to get into melee range or until it is out of the Blinding Cloud and regains it 4range attack. Which takes a 3speed roach that is standing in the middle of a 2radius Cloud probably way less than 0.5seconds. So the effect of the Cloud on the roach is a statistical loss of less than 4damage and a small repositioning. Yeah, that is true, but units that are attacking don’t move, even if another unit is trying to get past them. This means the first line of roaches is going to start attack, blocking the path of other roaches under the cloud from getting out from under it. It is going to be like having zealots trapped behind your firing stalkers, only with roachs. If used in any sort of choke, or with zerglings, the ability will be awesome. Used in a open field, it will be ok. | ||
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Young Terran
United Kingdom265 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 19 2012 03:59 Plansix wrote: Yeah, that is true, but units that are attacking don’t move, even if another unit is trying to get past them. This means the first line of roaches is going to start attack, blocking the path of other roaches under the cloud from getting out from under it. It is going to be like having zealots trapped behind your firing stalkers, only with roachs. If used in any sort of choke, or with zerglings, the ability will be awesome. Used in a open field, it will be ok. Well, as said I don't believe the ability is useless. But it feels like in many situations, it becomes straight up useless. It feels kind of like lategame FFs when I watch them on streams. Why bother spending a ton of money on such casters, when you could just invest into stronger spells/units? | ||
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On December 18 2012 22:06 MilesTeg wrote: If Idra, a guy who has never been wrong, said that... ok, I'm convinced. Idra is not always right. But he is so biased towards Zerg that i would not be surprised if he claimed that Zerg needs a buff in WoL. If Idra says that something Terran is not viable, it most likely isen't | ||
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