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On December 04 2012 06:08 Jermstuddog wrote:
-Tie Reapers to Widow Mines and be done with it. This makes them important all game long in all Terran MUs and allows them to keep on with their harassment stats and not be OP in straight-up fights while being an important part of every Terran game.
Why do people keep suggesting this as if it will make the unit good all game?!?!?
Anyone that has played the beta knows damn well that
1) Mine is useless vs anyone above Gold past 12 minutes.
2) Reaper is useless vs anyone not playing Terran
So, how does combining two shitty late game units make it a good late game unit?
Someone, please explain this to me.... Please.
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Northern Ireland27405 Posts
On December 04 2012 09:00 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 06:08 Jermstuddog wrote:
-Tie Reapers to Widow Mines and be done with it. This makes them important all game long in all Terran MUs and allows them to keep on with their harassment stats and not be OP in straight-up fights while being an important part of every Terran game.
Why do people keep suggesting this as if it will make the unit good all game?!?!? Anyone that has played the beta knows damn well that 1) Mine is useless vs anyone above Gold past 12 minutes. 2) Reaper is useless vs anyone not playing Terran So, how does combining two shitty late game units make it a good late game unit? Someone, please explain this to me.... Please.
Not sure, I mean you could find a specific niche maybe? I know Thorzain and qxc had these reaper hitsquads in their TvP for a while, which seemed ok when I saw it but rarely employed
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On December 04 2012 09:02 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 09:00 NKexquisite wrote:On December 04 2012 06:08 Jermstuddog wrote:
-Tie Reapers to Widow Mines and be done with it. This makes them important all game long in all Terran MUs and allows them to keep on with their harassment stats and not be OP in straight-up fights while being an important part of every Terran game.
Why do people keep suggesting this as if it will make the unit good all game?!?!? Anyone that has played the beta knows damn well that 1) Mine is useless vs anyone above Gold past 12 minutes. 2) Reaper is useless vs anyone not playing Terran So, how does combining two shitty late game units make it a good late game unit? Someone, please explain this to me.... Please. Not sure, I mean you could find a specific niche maybe? I know Thorzain and qxc had these reaper hitsquads in their TvP for a while, which seemed ok when I saw it but rarely employed
With no D8 charge, add a cannon, add a spine. Good to go.
Edit: Not like every player doesn't already have one of those at their mineral lines to stop drops anyways. Or a queen...
Edit2: I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's highly improbable...
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i actually think mines are too strong already. its kinda ridicolous that widow mine kills an observer which tries to detect it
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I hope 3 months will be enough time to fully balance test this.
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On December 04 2012 09:07 Drittschaden wrote:
i actually think mines are too strong already. its kinda ridicolous that widow mine kills an observer which tries to detect it
Huh? Observer's vision and detection is much larger than range 5 (sight radius is 11). It just means you have to watch your observer a bit more carefully now, that's all..
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On December 04 2012 08:48 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 08:45 Zealot Lord wrote:On December 04 2012 08:24 Whitewing wrote:
I'm a little worried about the bio buff in late game, as it is Protoss can have a very hard time vs. a heavy ghost, pure bio composition in the late game. Medivacs also don't need a buff, they're used in every matchup quite consistently. It's going to be a nightmare defending against drops if this goes through.
I also don't like the VR change, it doesn't really solve the problem, and it makes the unit even sillier. It's not fast enough to be a decent harassing unit and isn't strong enough to be a serious unit in the army.
Mutalisks don't need a speed buff, the widow mine needs to be less absurd at instant killing them. Making mutas faster will make PvZ a bit of a nightmare, it's already fairly tough to defend against them well.
The rest of the changes sound pretty good though. Seconded. Mutalisks are already agile enough, how exactly does protoss counter them at all? Blink stalkers will get much fewer shots off at them, if phoenix speed advantage is negated, its not usable against them either. And if they do increase the speed AND acceleration, storms aren't going to do much if the zerg is paying attention. Not understanding the medivac buff either, especially his reasoning of "not seeing it enough" - I mean, wtf?? If he thinks its not strong enough, thats his own opinion, but saying that not enough people use them is insane lol. I don't like that change because of muta play in ZvP. I mean, it was hard enough to beat a good muta player when it was popular, even with slower mutas. Toss has such a hole between high DPS ground-to-air damage until storm and archons come up I like muta play vs T, but not P. I guess Zerg, if they screw up vs a Terran get shredded by marines. Toss just don't have as good tools pre storm-archon. To be honest, even if it makes playing my own race intolerable for a bit, I'd still like to encourage other stles just for their sake. It's a beta so let people test it
hey I'm all for testing radical changes in a beta as well, but certain things you KNOW is going to be an issue. for instance, if they decided to nerf forcefields and buff gateway units to compensate, it could be an interesting test. I can't see how a straight up mutalisk mobility buff isn't going to break the matchup unless its an expensive hive tech upgrade or something.
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After millions of people saying how Blizzard doesn't know how to balance the game, everything is broken, the world's gonna end etc... these changes look absolutely perfect.
I can't think of a single other change that I would like, he really hit the nail on the head with this one. I just REALLY hope they go through with it and don't just revert all this and say "well never mind, the numbers look good" like they've been doing with their other good ideas recently.
So hopeful these are implemented ^_^
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Northern Ireland27405 Posts
On December 04 2012 09:10 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 08:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 04 2012 08:45 Zealot Lord wrote:On December 04 2012 08:24 Whitewing wrote:
I'm a little worried about the bio buff in late game, as it is Protoss can have a very hard time vs. a heavy ghost, pure bio composition in the late game. Medivacs also don't need a buff, they're used in every matchup quite consistently. It's going to be a nightmare defending against drops if this goes through.
I also don't like the VR change, it doesn't really solve the problem, and it makes the unit even sillier. It's not fast enough to be a decent harassing unit and isn't strong enough to be a serious unit in the army.
Mutalisks don't need a speed buff, the widow mine needs to be less absurd at instant killing them. Making mutas faster will make PvZ a bit of a nightmare, it's already fairly tough to defend against them well.
The rest of the changes sound pretty good though. Seconded. Mutalisks are already agile enough, how exactly does protoss counter them at all? Blink stalkers will get much fewer shots off at them, if phoenix speed advantage is negated, its not usable against them either. And if they do increase the speed AND acceleration, storms aren't going to do much if the zerg is paying attention. Not understanding the medivac buff either, especially his reasoning of "not seeing it enough" - I mean, wtf?? If he thinks its not strong enough, thats his own opinion, but saying that not enough people use them is insane lol. I don't like that change because of muta play in ZvP. I mean, it was hard enough to beat a good muta player when it was popular, even with slower mutas. Toss has such a hole between high DPS ground-to-air damage until storm and archons come up I like muta play vs T, but not P. I guess Zerg, if they screw up vs a Terran get shredded by marines. Toss just don't have as good tools pre storm-archon. To be honest, even if it makes playing my own race intolerable for a bit, I'd still like to encourage other stles just for their sake. It's a beta so let people test it hey I'm all for testing radical changes in a beta as well, but certain things you KNOW is going to be an issue. for instance, if they decided to nerf forcefields and buff gateway units to compensate, it could be an interesting test. I can't see how a mutalisk mobility buff isn't going to break the matchup unless its an expensive hive tech upgrade or something.
Dude I've given up trying to explain that the mere ability of an incredibly mediocre player like me can think of reasons that something might be an issue, is indicative of an issue existing even before testing 
I'll just go prepare my 'Wombat was right' banner that I show myself to cheer me up when I get disheartened on here
That said, I've been bitching about design, or indeed a coherent kind of link between intent, and what they're doing. The Protoss stuff actually looks pretty good, it's a mix of changes that sound like they could enable more actual variation in styles to come about.
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On December 04 2012 08:46 Kiro21 wrote:
DT Buff Idea:
400/400 Upgrade at DT Shrine. Don't know upgrade time.
The first attack from a Dark templar deals 150 damage. (Has a 20 second cooldown)
This would make it late game, also make it not very strong if you got it early because its expensive and one snipe of 150 dmg isn't spectacular, but 10 dts could be immense. It also isn't op because after 10 strikes, especially if misplaced, they play their old role and its harder to get those hits off. They can snipe turrets, spores, tanks, swarm hosts, and can be the bad ass end game warp gate unit. Also, it sticks with the role of the assassin. AND most importantly, adds for some insaneee micro and death ball breaking (running dts in early to individually snipe colossi before the fight begins) I think itd be awesome.
What you guys think?
User was warned for this post
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On December 04 2012 09:00 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 06:08 Jermstuddog wrote:
-Tie Reapers to Widow Mines and be done with it. This makes them important all game long in all Terran MUs and allows them to keep on with their harassment stats and not be OP in straight-up fights while being an important part of every Terran game.
Why do people keep suggesting this as if it will make the unit good all game?!?!? Anyone that has played the beta knows damn well that 1) Mine is useless vs anyone above Gold past 12 minutes. 2) Reaper is useless vs anyone not playing Terran So, how does combining two shitty late game units make it a good late game unit? Someone, please explain this to me.... Please.
If it's added onto the Reaper, it probably will be one-time-use and no supply like the Spider Mine, which is a huge change and probably really imbalanced when paired with the Reaper's cliff-jumping, so it's an unlikely change because it's ironically OP.
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Where are the carrier changes!! This is the perfect time to put them in.. given that the next patch is going to be massive.
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Everything's good except one raven buff is missing. I would exchange mediviac buff with Raven's since mediviac will automatically been used more often if bio is really gonna b buffed like what David said
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On December 04 2012 09:25 gengka wrote:
Everything's good except one raven buff is missing. I would exchange mediviac buff with Raven's since mediviac will automatically been used more often if bio is really gonna b buffed like what David said
Hmmm?
1. Redesign Thor ability/Raven seeker missile
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On December 04 2012 09:13 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 09:10 Zealot Lord wrote:On December 04 2012 08:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 04 2012 08:45 Zealot Lord wrote:On December 04 2012 08:24 Whitewing wrote:
I'm a little worried about the bio buff in late game, as it is Protoss can have a very hard time vs. a heavy ghost, pure bio composition in the late game. Medivacs also don't need a buff, they're used in every matchup quite consistently. It's going to be a nightmare defending against drops if this goes through.
I also don't like the VR change, it doesn't really solve the problem, and it makes the unit even sillier. It's not fast enough to be a decent harassing unit and isn't strong enough to be a serious unit in the army.
Mutalisks don't need a speed buff, the widow mine needs to be less absurd at instant killing them. Making mutas faster will make PvZ a bit of a nightmare, it's already fairly tough to defend against them well.
The rest of the changes sound pretty good though. Seconded. Mutalisks are already agile enough, how exactly does protoss counter them at all? Blink stalkers will get much fewer shots off at them, if phoenix speed advantage is negated, its not usable against them either. And if they do increase the speed AND acceleration, storms aren't going to do much if the zerg is paying attention. Not understanding the medivac buff either, especially his reasoning of "not seeing it enough" - I mean, wtf?? If he thinks its not strong enough, thats his own opinion, but saying that not enough people use them is insane lol. I don't like that change because of muta play in ZvP. I mean, it was hard enough to beat a good muta player when it was popular, even with slower mutas. Toss has such a hole between high DPS ground-to-air damage until storm and archons come up I like muta play vs T, but not P. I guess Zerg, if they screw up vs a Terran get shredded by marines. Toss just don't have as good tools pre storm-archon. To be honest, even if it makes playing my own race intolerable for a bit, I'd still like to encourage other stles just for their sake. It's a beta so let people test it hey I'm all for testing radical changes in a beta as well, but certain things you KNOW is going to be an issue. for instance, if they decided to nerf forcefields and buff gateway units to compensate, it could be an interesting test. I can't see how a mutalisk mobility buff isn't going to break the matchup unless its an expensive hive tech upgrade or something. Dude I've given up trying to explain that the mere ability of an incredibly mediocre player like me can think of reasons that something might be an issue, is indicative of an issue existing even before testing I'll just go prepare my 'Wombat was right' banner that I show myself to cheer me up when I get disheartened on here That said, I've been bitching about design, or indeed a coherent kind of link between intent, and what they're doing. The Protoss stuff actually looks pretty good, it's a mix of changes that sound like they could enable more actual variation in styles to come about.
well to be fair, I do like a lot of the changes, but there are a couple which are a definite red flag for sure.
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5. Buff Bio in the late game - with the addition of new units in HotS, we feel Bio in the late game is a bit weak.
6. Buff mech in general - we'd like to maybe test combining the vehicle and air upgrades at the armory.
The problem with terran is that the siege tank is so weak in the late game. Vs Zerg it is easily overun...vs toss it is still a joke and even terran very late game we see the tank give way to air-superiority builds.
The fix is not to combine air/ground...that will not help the siege tank much at all. The siege tank needs a siege tank specific upgrade to do more damage in the late game. It's such an easy fix it is not even funny. We don't need more bio vs zerg and toss...the dependency on bio is the problem and not the solution.
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Northern Ireland27405 Posts
On December 04 2012 09:28 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 09:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 04 2012 09:10 Zealot Lord wrote:On December 04 2012 08:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On December 04 2012 08:45 Zealot Lord wrote:On December 04 2012 08:24 Whitewing wrote:
I'm a little worried about the bio buff in late game, as it is Protoss can have a very hard time vs. a heavy ghost, pure bio composition in the late game. Medivacs also don't need a buff, they're used in every matchup quite consistently. It's going to be a nightmare defending against drops if this goes through.
I also don't like the VR change, it doesn't really solve the problem, and it makes the unit even sillier. It's not fast enough to be a decent harassing unit and isn't strong enough to be a serious unit in the army.
Mutalisks don't need a speed buff, the widow mine needs to be less absurd at instant killing them. Making mutas faster will make PvZ a bit of a nightmare, it's already fairly tough to defend against them well.
The rest of the changes sound pretty good though. Seconded. Mutalisks are already agile enough, how exactly does protoss counter them at all? Blink stalkers will get much fewer shots off at them, if phoenix speed advantage is negated, its not usable against them either. And if they do increase the speed AND acceleration, storms aren't going to do much if the zerg is paying attention. Not understanding the medivac buff either, especially his reasoning of "not seeing it enough" - I mean, wtf?? If he thinks its not strong enough, thats his own opinion, but saying that not enough people use them is insane lol. I don't like that change because of muta play in ZvP. I mean, it was hard enough to beat a good muta player when it was popular, even with slower mutas. Toss has such a hole between high DPS ground-to-air damage until storm and archons come up I like muta play vs T, but not P. I guess Zerg, if they screw up vs a Terran get shredded by marines. Toss just don't have as good tools pre storm-archon. To be honest, even if it makes playing my own race intolerable for a bit, I'd still like to encourage other stles just for their sake. It's a beta so let people test it hey I'm all for testing radical changes in a beta as well, but certain things you KNOW is going to be an issue. for instance, if they decided to nerf forcefields and buff gateway units to compensate, it could be an interesting test. I can't see how a mutalisk mobility buff isn't going to break the matchup unless its an expensive hive tech upgrade or something. Dude I've given up trying to explain that the mere ability of an incredibly mediocre player like me can think of reasons that something might be an issue, is indicative of an issue existing even before testing I'll just go prepare my 'Wombat was right' banner that I show myself to cheer me up when I get disheartened on here That said, I've been bitching about design, or indeed a coherent kind of link between intent, and what they're doing. The Protoss stuff actually looks pretty good, it's a mix of changes that sound like they could enable more actual variation in styles to come about. well to be fair, I do like a lot of the changes, but there are a couple which are a definite red flag for sure.
Look, as long as there's a vaguely coherent design philosophy being displayed man, at least you can sort of say with the Protoss changes 'here's what their rough idea is for the totality of the changes, here's the specifics'. That way you can kind of assess whether they do what's intended, either directly or indirectly.
I actually prefer the idea of indirectly buffing certain things to make entire styles viable. I mean ok it was maybe a bit much, but Blizzard buffing warp prisms enabled stuff like more prism heavy play, storm drops, immortal micro etc to be used more. You kind of fix the issue with a core unit or whatever, to enable people to figure out how to use it.
I think the idea of improving the viability of air, for example, will potentially enable Protoss to play a non-deathball style in a more consistent way far more than changing other 'direct' things about deathballs. Kind of weird, Dayvie is kind of implementing the general concept of my post, if not the specifics I believe.
How Fixing Stargate, increases Protoss options in a variety of directions
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I hope they'll find good ways to implements these good ideas.
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On December 04 2012 09:36 Fungal Growth wrote:
5. Buff Bio in the late game - with the addition of new units in HotS, we feel Bio in the late game is a bit weak.
6. Buff mech in general - we'd like to maybe test combining the vehicle and air upgrades at the armory.
The problem with terran is that the siege tank is so weak in the late game. Vs Zerg it is easily overun...vs toss it is still a joke and even terran very late game we see the tank give way to air-superiority builds.
The fix is not to combine air/ground...that will not help the siege tank much at all. The siege tank needs a siege tank specific upgrade to do more damage in the late game. It's such an easy fix it is not even funny. We don't need more bio vs zerg and toss...the dependency on bio is the problem and not the solution.
Got a crazy idea. How about they give the Warhound haywire missiles ability to the Siege Tank as a lategame upgrade? It would help to give an extra umph vs mechanical so greatly boost tvp mech, keeping tvz as is.
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Lots of good thoughts, i like especially the starport-army, mechanic upgrade change and the hydra buff.
I wished they would tweak sentry+gateway+colossus/ht a bit to something more balanced out and buff the carrier a bit (although buffing vr and nerfing infestor might make the carrier either viable or outclassed by the vr or tempest), but apart from that these thoughts are really promising.
I hope they dont overdo it and the time will be enough. According to his ideas vr gets essentially 2 buffs (infestor change/nerf +buff), bio by the looks of it will get 2 buffs (medivac + not yet described) ultras will possibly get two buffs (all around-damage and tempest change/nerf) and while these are currently underused in the meta, taking care of not overbuffing them will take quite some time.
On December 04 2012 09:43 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 09:36 Fungal Growth wrote:
5. Buff Bio in the late game - with the addition of new units in HotS, we feel Bio in the late game is a bit weak.
6. Buff mech in general - we'd like to maybe test combining the vehicle and air upgrades at the armory.
The problem with terran is that the siege tank is so weak in the late game. Vs Zerg it is easily overun...vs toss it is still a joke and even terran very late game we see the tank give way to air-superiority builds.
The fix is not to combine air/ground...that will not help the siege tank much at all. The siege tank needs a siege tank specific upgrade to do more damage in the late game. It's such an easy fix it is not even funny. We don't need more bio vs zerg and toss...the dependency on bio is the problem and not the solution. Got a crazy idea. How about they give the Warhound haywire missiles ability to the Siege Tank as a lategame upgrade? It would help to give an extra umph vs mechanical so greatly boost tvp mech, keeping tvz as is.
i would prefer giving this to a unit that is not supposed to be countered by the immortal. Stripping armored from vikings and giving this to them might be interesting.
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EPT
