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Northern Ireland26498 Posts
On December 04 2012 10:36 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 10:32 Onlinejaguar wrote:On December 04 2012 10:07 Scila wrote:
Good changes but Zerg gets to continue winning everything until Hots. So much undeserved money going to Patchzergs over this past year, really feel bad for those Terran and Protoss pro players. Yeh it feels a little like zergs are just building up to the same late game army in all 3 matchups. If blizz can stop this being the case in HOTS it would be great. lol guess you guys missed the first 1.5+ years of domination by terran. Poo hoo don't dominate for 6 months and worst thing ever. Again though blizzard did say they would mess with infestors first in hots and then put it in WoL. So WoL will get it eventually just not till blizzard is satisfied with how they feel in HoTs or w/e since nobody tests balance changes very much in WoL hots is the best thing for them.
It's fucking retarded to balance things to make up for some supposed karmic injustice that was the period of Terran domination. It's making the game actually interesting, with stylistic divergence.
Was TvP in the 1/1/1 era better than now for anybody who isn't incredibly biased, I mean come on/
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On December 04 2012 10:41 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 10:36 blade55555 wrote:On December 04 2012 10:32 Onlinejaguar wrote:On December 04 2012 10:07 Scila wrote:
Good changes but Zerg gets to continue winning everything until Hots. So much undeserved money going to Patchzergs over this past year, really feel bad for those Terran and Protoss pro players. Yeh it feels a little like zergs are just building up to the same late game army in all 3 matchups. If blizz can stop this being the case in HOTS it would be great. lol guess you guys missed the first 1.5+ years of domination by terran. Poo hoo don't dominate for 6 months and worst thing ever. Again though blizzard did say they would mess with infestors first in hots and then put it in WoL. So WoL will get it eventually just not till blizzard is satisfied with how they feel in HoTs or w/e since nobody tests balance changes very much in WoL hots is the best thing for them. It's fucking retarded to balance things to make up for some supposed karmic injustice that was the period of Terran domination. It's making the game actually interesting, with stylistic divergence. Was TvP in the 1/1/1 era better than now for anybody who isn't incredibly biased, I mean come on/
Did you just call Blade biased?
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This is quite possibly just me being horribly cynical, but does anyone else find the timing and presentation of this kind of lame?
There's an extremely high profile tournament that spawns tons of discontent about the current state of WoL, including a top level player typing "IMBA IMBA IMBA" in the semifinals of the world's most prestigious SC2 tournament. Right after the tournament ends a blue post appears that essentially says "Whoops! We forgot to write all these changes we were going to make, and then there's a list saying "we want to change the thor's ability, infestors need to be nerfed, voidray design is bad, vortex needs to be changed". In other words "yeah, WoL balance is terrible and the game design is poor, but look at how we're going to fix it in HoTS, please don't stop playing/wanting to buy our game".
Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas on this list, but to me it seems like damage control to some extent. Aside from a few ideas (such as the medivac abilities) most of the items in this list are quite unspecific (a lot of "we'd like to make this better" with no explanation of how they might go about it).
Maybe I'm just an extreme cynic, but I'm not convinced this thread means much until I see what they'll actually change. So far their attempts to "fix/alter" units they've already created have gone horribly wrong multiple times. I hope it works out for the better with HoTS.
And again, I really hope I'm just a negative Nancy, Debbie Downer, cynical bastard, and not right about this.
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omg reaper  they need to help the poor TvT by nerfing it
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Northern Ireland26498 Posts
I don't know, I mean I'd rather see a more clear kind of, approach?
1. Here's the kind of play we want to make possible.
2. Here's how we want to fill in the gaps we think need filled in each of the races
3. Here's the specifics
Also I think giving the medivac speed boost to DTs is a better idea, kind of gives them a bit more of an ability to force mistakes and whatnot than relying on your opponents. One of the problems with DTs imo.
Oh dear, I didn't realise I had crossed swords with blade. I'm at that stage where I'm too tired to even see people's nicks, I just see walls of text at this stage
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dislike how they're trying to buff the medivac/muta directly rather than try to make harass more desirable (anti-deathball, etc). aside from that, looks good.
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Hydra speed upgrade should definitely be available in Lair tech. I love to see how this change zerg strats. Especially with nerfing infestors, will we see more roach/hydra combo in the mid game?
As for "Make Voidray + Phoenix + Oracle combo a viable strat overall", it is interesting how Blizzard wants this combo to be more viable. I always thought the way units are design to be like sandbox and let the users design the best composition.
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buff bio late game and buff mech? the saving grace of terran on the ladder?!
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On December 04 2012 11:06 renlynn wrote:
dislike how they're trying to buff the medivac/muta directly rather than try to make harass more desirable (anti-deathball, etc). aside from that, looks good.
My problem is they wont change moving shot to buff the muta, but just make it faster with the same awkward movement.
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On December 04 2012 10:59 Swords wrote:
This is quite possibly just me being horribly cynical, but does anyone else find the timing and presentation of this kind of lame?
There's an extremely high profile tournament that spawns tons of discontent about the current state of WoL, including a top level player typing "IMBA IMBA IMBA" in the semifinals of the world's most prestigious SC2 tournament. Right after the tournament ends a blue post appears that essentially says "Whoops! We forgot to write all these changes we were going to make, and then there's a list saying "we want to change the thor's ability, infestors need to be nerfed, voidray design is bad, vortex needs to be changed". In other words "yeah, WoL balance is terrible and the game design is poor, but look at how we're going to fix it in HoTS, please don't stop playing/wanting to buy our game".
Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas on this list, but to me it seems like damage control to some extent. Aside from a few ideas (such as the medivac abilities) most of the items in this list are quite unspecific (a lot of "we'd like to make this better" with no explanation of how they might go about it).
Maybe I'm just an extreme cynic, but I'm not convinced this thread means much until I see what they'll actually change. So far their attempts to "fix/alter" units they've already created have gone horribly wrong multiple times. I hope it works out for the better with HoTS.
And again, I really hope I'm just a negative Nancy, Debbie Downer, cynical bastard, and not right about this.
Blizz already expressed their desire to make most of these changes before BWC ended.
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LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not enough medivac play? Boost to fucking medivacS? Fuck my life hahahahaha
Im loving the Ultralisk good vs all ground, buff to hydra at lair, and big nerf to infestor.
When i started playing zerg, i expected to have the most mobile end game army in the game, made a big mistake. Ultralisk+hydra will be viable end game army, will be so god damn amazing...
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Northern Ireland26498 Posts
Aye, good point. The most elegant solution is always the best, ideally. I mean, making a Muta better in its harassing capacity as a rule is grand, but the 'better' way to do this isn't to make it a speed machine but to make it more manouverable and have more finesse. Finesse units like Mutas or Marines also scale a hell of a lot more entertainingly the better the player controlling them.
Hm, might be wrong but aren't some aspects of old-school BW micro apparently not doable given the engine? Remember somebody said this on here once, something about sprites and 3D models rotating around their axis differently or something :S
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I really hope these changes are implemented BEFORE the holiday break. I don't want to wait until end of January so we can only test such large changes too briefly. Seriously Blizzard, chop, chop.
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User was warned for this post
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On December 04 2012 11:31 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 10:59 Swords wrote:
This is quite possibly just me being horribly cynical, but does anyone else find the timing and presentation of this kind of lame?
There's an extremely high profile tournament that spawns tons of discontent about the current state of WoL, including a top level player typing "IMBA IMBA IMBA" in the semifinals of the world's most prestigious SC2 tournament. Right after the tournament ends a blue post appears that essentially says "Whoops! We forgot to write all these changes we were going to make, and then there's a list saying "we want to change the thor's ability, infestors need to be nerfed, voidray design is bad, vortex needs to be changed". In other words "yeah, WoL balance is terrible and the game design is poor, but look at how we're going to fix it in HoTS, please don't stop playing/wanting to buy our game".
Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas on this list, but to me it seems like damage control to some extent. Aside from a few ideas (such as the medivac abilities) most of the items in this list are quite unspecific (a lot of "we'd like to make this better" with no explanation of how they might go about it).
Maybe I'm just an extreme cynic, but I'm not convinced this thread means much until I see what they'll actually change. So far their attempts to "fix/alter" units they've already created have gone horribly wrong multiple times. I hope it works out for the better with HoTS.
And again, I really hope I'm just a negative Nancy, Debbie Downer, cynical bastard, and not right about this. Blizz already expressed their desire to make most of these changes before BWC ended.
Yeah, that's kind of part of what I'm getting at. They're re-listing the same changes they've been talking about for months now, and without many specifics (we want to change the thor spell - Blizz has been saying this since before the beta). It seems like more of a PR move to me than anything, after the GSL and IPL 5 balance issues (whether you believe those exist or not is up to you).
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On December 04 2012 11:54 Swords wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2012 11:31 Antylamon wrote:On December 04 2012 10:59 Swords wrote:
This is quite possibly just me being horribly cynical, but does anyone else find the timing and presentation of this kind of lame?
There's an extremely high profile tournament that spawns tons of discontent about the current state of WoL, including a top level player typing "IMBA IMBA IMBA" in the semifinals of the world's most prestigious SC2 tournament. Right after the tournament ends a blue post appears that essentially says "Whoops! We forgot to write all these changes we were going to make, and then there's a list saying "we want to change the thor's ability, infestors need to be nerfed, voidray design is bad, vortex needs to be changed". In other words "yeah, WoL balance is terrible and the game design is poor, but look at how we're going to fix it in HoTS, please don't stop playing/wanting to buy our game".
Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas on this list, but to me it seems like damage control to some extent. Aside from a few ideas (such as the medivac abilities) most of the items in this list are quite unspecific (a lot of "we'd like to make this better" with no explanation of how they might go about it).
Maybe I'm just an extreme cynic, but I'm not convinced this thread means much until I see what they'll actually change. So far their attempts to "fix/alter" units they've already created have gone horribly wrong multiple times. I hope it works out for the better with HoTS.
And again, I really hope I'm just a negative Nancy, Debbie Downer, cynical bastard, and not right about this. Blizz already expressed their desire to make most of these changes before BWC ended. Yeah, that's kind of part of what I'm getting at. They're re-listing the same changes they've been talking about for months now, and without many specifics (we want to change the thor spell - Blizz has been saying this since before the beta). It seems like more of a PR move to me than anything, after the GSL and IPL 5 balance issues (whether you believe those exist or not is up to you).
I think you're thinking too much about a conspiracy that probably doesn't exist. Dayvie's post would have been posted regardless of tournament results, possibly even earlier had they been on top of things more. Their resources aren't unlimited, and they're sometimes not too transparent with some of the things that they are testing internally, some of which probably don't work well enough to talk about publicly.
And they specifically said a month ago that they would slow down patching to see how the game would develop, and it seems that whatever changes they will make will be based how things progressed last month.
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On December 04 2012 08:24 Whitewing wrote:
I'm a little worried about the bio buff in late game, as it is Protoss can have a very hard time vs. a heavy ghost, pure bio composition in the late game. Medivacs also don't need a buff, they're used in every matchup quite consistently. It's going to be a nightmare defending against drops if this goes through.
I also don't like the VR change, it doesn't really solve the problem, and it makes the unit even sillier. It's not fast enough to be a decent harassing unit and isn't strong enough to be a serious unit in the army.
Mutalisks don't need a speed buff, the widow mine needs to be less absurd at instant killing them. Making mutas faster will make PvZ a bit of a nightmare, it's already fairly tough to defend against them well.
The rest of the changes sound pretty good though.
All of this.
In particular, the widow mine vs. muta bit. I really feel like the widow mine has done a lot of damage to a lot of the unit interactions. Instead of modifying one unit, they've given all races free detection by the five minute mark and are currently trying to buff flying harass around it. Seems kind of insane to me when there's obvious solutions.
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Considering that zerg can remaz from BL/Corr into Ultras instantly, i dont see an issue with the tempest hard countering both. Why should zerg get to do a complete air to ground switch, or vice versa, but others cannot and cant counter it without sacking now useless units.
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Woot! Coherent toss air units. I feel so confused building a stargate now, I want to build oracles but I feel like pheonix/voids are just better.
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Least love for Protoss I guess. I'd love to see less FF dependency though, and more buff to gateway units.
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Northern Ireland26498 Posts
Because Zerg's design is fucking broken lol? It's not Zerg being imba, they're getting better at figuring out these advantages, challenging previous misconceptions and also benefitting from patch changes to other race. All the factors in combination are what are making Zergs perform so well atm.
The basic idea is great, Zerg's macro works more in bursts than the others. Part of racial identity
Their production works from one structure as well, so you have to prioritise drones (econ) or army (aggression or safety)
The Queen is a kind of macro-augmenter, and a defensive unit. It's too good in those combined roles because you go Queens anyway because you need them for injects, but, by going for example a heavy Queen opener, you profit from the additional defensive/creep benefits. Yeah, you might have good defense and creepspread as a result, but it's not necessarily because you made any kind of good decision.
Infestor is a catch-all
Infestor transitions to brood.
Basically, Zergs production and ability to flood eco, plus a really un-reactive
I mean if Zerg was tweaked it could get its racial identity back, at least in terms of how it plays as the reactive/trading race. It shouldn't be viable to rush straight to Hive as quick as you can get away with, not because it's bad inherently, but because everything is balanced around a metagame where that used to be a difficult transition
The 'reactive' race, and the Protoss and Terran metagame now is to kill them before they get broodlord/infestor. That or drop everywhere when their out, or get their own god comp.
As I see it, in terms of Zerg playstyle it's 100% fair there being the expectation of Protoss and Terran to work hard, but it should be to slow economy, stop Zergs getting 5/6 bases and overwhelming them. You can slow an economy/trade approach down, but can't slow down Bl/Infestor when it's already out.
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EPT
