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Northern Ireland23866 Posts
This is a post I stuck up in another thread that I'm reposting here, I'd really love to get a discussion going on and am genuinely interested to hear what guys who are on the Beta, or the intelligent theorycrafters amongst us think - Note, this discussion of the Phoenix, as a component of the Protoss air tree could completely change depending on what the changes to the Void Ray actually are. I'm really just discussing the unit and how it slots into the PvZ matchup based upon current WoL trends, proposed fungal changes in that game, and what I know about HoTS in its current state.
Consider the phoenix, I am not sure, but I believe this is a unit that people generally like. It's an APM sync, it rewards finesse, it even has a bit of utility, in that you can lift units out of danger, or target dangerous casters. Whoever talked about changing fungal vs air, I really do feel that's a change that is needs to be properly done in HoTS; because of its effect on my beloved phoenix. As much as I hate the spell, I do feel it fills holes that will be super hard to fix for Zerg in WoL. Anyway, moving on the point I wish to make. It's my favourite harass unit in the game in terms of how it functions in many ways.
1. It costs a reasonable amount of cash to make, so it's not particularly massable.
2. Unless sniping air units, to do direct damage (i.e not just forcing spores), you have to manually cast graviton beam. This adds multitasking to the Protoss race, it's not a unit you can stick in a mineral line and forget about.
3. Going back to the cost issue, it's quite a good balance. It's not a cheap, mineral-only unit, able to be thrown out 2 at a time, and run straight into mineral lines like Hellions quite often are, especially those with blueflame. Equally it's not a huge investment, both in terms of time and cash like DTs are that pretty much HAVE to do some kind of damage and rely on the surprise factor to do so oftentimes.
4. It doesn't really suit being massed, or exploit too many weaknesses that any specific race may have. In the days of Muta ZvP, on maps that suited that style it was extremely tough to beat as a Protoss due to a lack of ground-to-air, pre-storm/archon AoE damage. The Muta/Marine dynamic is what a harassment unit should aim for. You pick away and look for an opening, but equally you get punished hard for over-extending to try and do damage. Phoenixes fit the bill in PvT as well, when the metagame allowed them to be more consistently viable.
However, it's a rather situational unit, primarily in terms of PvZ when I'm talking about it. Again, I'm not sure, but I believe that graviton beam costs energy, rather than say being a cooldown ability because otherwise massive phoenix plays might do too much damage to Zergs with their relatively limited anti-air arsenal. However, the drawback of this is that even if you surprise a Zerg, oftentimes you cannot do a lot of damage, sometimes you deserve to get more of an advantage, if your opponent neglected to scout/build blind defences. The other one is that Phoenixes, bar the occasional miracle flank, are close to useless the second infestors pop. It's the second of these pitfalls that I'm addressing here, I've given my thoughts on graviton costing no energy before but even my pro-phoenix biased self can see that could cause problems.
Now, if Zerg get better compositions options in HoTS, the necessity of fungal being so good against all manner of units is lessened. This does depend on how HoTs develops, or if mooted changes to Infestors do go through.If the AoE damage/root of fungal is needed less against units like marines or stalkers due to other units being available, then it can be toned down in that sense. If the anti-air capabilities of Zergs are less weak, then fungal can be reduced in effectiveness against air. Perhaps both can be done, perhaps neither or either!
Now imagine Protoss players who have at their potential disposal, if these mooted 'psionic' changes go through in WoL, and fungal is toned down a bit in other ways in HoTs:
1. Phoenixes that have harassment potential beyond the period before infestors. That are fast and offer scouting information, and can snipe workers for a longer period, or at least force spores.
2. Oracles, that are fast and the last time I checked seemed to have a good anti-structure ability. Though entomb/storm combos are gone, time-warp/storm drops are one potentially lethal combination.
3. Warp prisms, potentially carrying DTs which aren't shut down as hard by fungals.
4. The mothership core and its recall ability enabling smaller forces to poke around the map more.
Now, this may turn out to, in combination be a completely, completely broken set of unit functionalities when combined. However, come on, the realistic chance to play a multitask-intensive style as Protoss that wouldn't be a stylistic choice, or a way to show off. It would potentially offer a style that isn't just flashy, but could be equally effective from the deathballing style many people bemoan.
Fellow TLers
-How do you think the Phoenix currently fits in to Heart of the Swarm? Is it good/bad? Does it suffer from overlapping in role with other units?
-If it's bad, can it find a niche through balance changes? Or do you feel it's a unit that you don't like at a base design level.
-If it's good, can Phoenix play synergise properly with other aspects of the race to enable the kind of army splitting, multitasking-intensive playstyle I very briefly outlined?
Looking forward to having a discussion on this. Cheers.
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Nony's Phoenix play in HDH invitational made me switch to protoss in sc2, which tells you a bit of how I feel about the unit. It is like a flying stalker in many regards, very nimble and with good hit points but relatively low damage output overall. I like the stalker as well.
I do think there is an overlap in the protoss stargate in HotS, but we need to look at all the units together. Oracle has speed and harass, just like phoenix, but the spells and anti-building attack are more like a voidray and sentry hybrid unit. Tempests also do decent harass if you get a good position and they dont need to be as nimble due to the range they have. Then you get to fit a carrier into that mix as well. Somehow I can't help but feel like there is one air unit too many here.
The only thing I think about phoenix for WoL is that it becomes less useful over time much faster than some other units. Graviton beam doesnt really work on larger clumps of units as long as they can actually shoot and with basic static defense you can't really harass either. I also found myself thinking about lifts being a cooldown, but it does feel like that would make phoenix very strong in some cases and not much else for other cases.
And yes, so much depends on the fungal change for PvZ. Currently the only matchup where you would say air play is common. Fungal is imo in dire need of change but until we know what that change is, it is hard to speculate. Still, we see tempests quite a lot in pvp and pvt as well nowadays and considering how well it is doing we might actually have more airplay in those matchups as well. Problem is that phoenix do not do a whole lot in pvp or pvt overall. Sure there are phoenix vs phoenix style pvp but realistically, it is very hard to make that work in the long run.
I love how phoenix is an almost limitless apm sink however. Instinctively I feel like 4 or so phoenix would be a good investment for any matchup assuming you had the control and multitasking to do it. I think it is one of those units that will need a few more years before we are comfortable enough to use them a lot. I might be wrong though.
It would be great if graviton beam would have longer range. If it came with 6 range base and got +2 from the phoenix upgrade, that would put it at 8 range lifts, which has a lot of uses imo. It still wouldn't make sense to build 15 of them, but at least they would be able to help out during an engagement in other ways than soak some damage and then die.
In some ways the phoenix feels very "meh" and that might actually be what makes it so good as a unit.
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I really like the phoenix, and i always have liked the phoenix. It looks cool, it sounds cool, it's a very "protoss" unit, very subtle but when used properly can really tear shit up. In WoL they have always been a bit of a problem because of the fact that they are so incredibly easily shut down by static defenses as well as infestor tech, which basically turns them into dead supply the minute they come out. The addition of the oracle might improve this situation a bit, as 1 turret in each mineral line does not provide the same safety to phoenix in HOTS as it would in WOL.
I like the graviton beam ability as well, even though at it's core it's an anti-micro ability, and we all know how much we hate those. It's one with a tradeoff though, it disables the caster as well as the target. It's a very big risk to take and i feel in most cases it's too big of a risk to take. Making it cooldown based might be an option but i would prefer the range to be tweaked a little or for phoenix to gain increased shield regeneration as long as they pick up a unit.
That might also give interesting micro possibilities mid combat. I dunno, just throwing ideas out there :p
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Northern Ireland23866 Posts
@Fenris, yeah I think a graviton beam energy removal would add even more coinflipping to PvP, but would add more damage potential in PvZ. It's a tough balancing act, although that said I don't know how much the Mothership Core for one will affect the former. I'm also unsure of how the Mothership Core will actually influence Protoss playstyles in the long run come to think of it. Your suggestion for graviton beam is pretty cool, in terms of a range buff. That said, there is a kind of vague way to do what you're talking about with the existing unit. You can rotate your phoenixes around with the range upgrade to extend their killzone. Phoenix A moves into graviton range, while the rest of the phoenixes keep their max, pull Phoenix A back and throw Phoenix B in, B becomes C etc. Hell that's another nuance to the unit that has barely been attempted in competitive games, and I watch a hell of a lot of games!
@Fragile, when you talk of the risk of going in to graviton, you actually reminded me of another point I meant to include in this Phoenix-fellating thread. There's a risk/reward judgement to be made most times you try to use phoenixes. This is distinct from a decision to go Phoenixes and the risk/reward that actually applies when choosing a tech path. Similarly to banshees, you have to position well, and actively control the unit to do any kind of damage if the opposition has set up any kind of anti-air. .
Contrast this with say, Zealot runbys or warpins, and Hellion runbys. These are two ways to harass, which I always welcome. However, it's all too often suciding these units to gain some kind of advantage, be it sniping tech with zealots, or roasting drones in TvZ. This is more a consequence of these being mineral-only stock units I guess, but I mean contrast these two forms of harassment and the pressures placed on the defender and attacker. Phoenixes and Banshees require much more attention from the attacker's perspective, which places a pretty equivalent onus on the defender to deflect them. Zealot warpins and Hellion runbys can skew this a bit when it comes to difficulty of executing the harass vs difficulty of deflecting said attack
Cheers for the responses so far, long live the glorious phoenix and it's worshippers.
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A unit almost useless if it is uncontrolled, I just love the Phoenix because of this. I probably like this unit because there is no way to stop them. The opponent is only able to minimize the damage until the tech is out to shut them down. And even then they don't lose alot of their map control ability. When it comes to a fight they are also useful as they can lift tanking units from save distance staying ontop of the toss army.
So for me they are a perfectly designed unit, but not something you should get if you lack the time to use them. And well Oracle allows some nice combination play with Phoenix. Which makes them less risky to use.
As for PvZ they want to address Fungal and make it harder to use and if it really becomes a projectile then fighting Phoenix with Infestors will be a pain in the ass. It won't be 1 or 2 Infestors shutting them down, it will rather look like 2 Phoenix will be caught, the rest will get the Infestors. And it will depend on your Phoenix or Infestor training if all Phoenix are gone or if they continue to harass.
I think the Energy is pretty important, rather then a cooldown for the Graviton Beam. It adds a depths to the Graviton Beam and how you manage it. I fought alot of enemies, that couldn't manage their Energy and lost because of it. With a cooldown they could grab some workers and be home to defend with lifts. With energy you could defend against them by attacking and they would have to retreat and not spend their energy on your workers.
I really don't want that this unit will be made easier by itself, I rather like that it will become easier to use by the support of other units.
But I am personally curious how the Voidray will be changed in HotS, not much a Phoenix can do against this unit except run. Overall the Protoss has no unit that can beat a charged Voidray and since they do more damage if you spread them out mass storm is no option as well in PvP against a Stargate Robo army.
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Good point about fungal being changed to a projectile FeyFey. if you could dodge fungals, that would make phoenix extremely good at taking out infestors in small numbers. If nothing else, they would have to use a lot more energy to catch all the phoenix.
You could safely "mass" phoenix a bit more against zerg because they would still be useful once the infestor pops, and of course would deter a muta switch. Adding in the range upgrade would help even more...Maybe there would be some epic timing pushes with chargelots/immortals and phoenix to hit pre-broodlords? Phoenix could provice air superiority against muta's and also keep the infestor count low...zealot immortal for the ling/roach army. Maybe mix in a few voids to deal with swarm hosts? Maybe they'll change the voidray a bit
The potential fungal nerf could be a buff for phoenix and other fast moving units like hellions or lings, or perhaps even speed roaches on creep.
I probably wouldn't be fast enough to reliably dodge fungals with phoenix, but I'd love to see more pro's using them post infestors!
Cheers,
Ramone
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It's "apm sink" not sync 
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Russian Federation51 Posts
Phoenix fits Hots perfectly, you have more choices in your build with new units. Phoenix still good for harrassing, even though zergs dont need evolution chamber for spores. If Phoenix production is unscouted, you can easily pick up queen or two, some drones and overlords. They will pay for themselves. Tempest expensive for such harassing and slow. They are more lategame units. 4-5 Phoenix gives you map control and make zerg nervous)
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United Arab Emirates439 Posts
I think the Phoenix is one of the best units in SC2, and I think you covered why very well. I think it's great in WoL and great in HotS, the design of it that is. I 100% agree that the Infestor prevents this unit from being as cool as it is. We see in PvP it has great use throughout the game, and it's amazing to watch someone who keeps their Phoenix alive twice as long as another player and racks up 20+ kills and is active with them. It is a complete shame that this is not really possible in PvZ, because Infestors defend so easily. It is a situation that makes me hate Fungal from a design perspective. And it is a shame that it isn't really viable in PvT because Mech isn't viable, and Bio is so strong in the mid-game timing area. I don't think the Phoenix necessarily needs changes though, as you have showed and I agree it's design is very cool. I think if Fungal was changed so that it didn't shut down Phoenix so hard it would be a fine unit. I hope that is what happens. If Fungal is just made to not effect psionic, I hope the Phoenix is made to psionic.
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Phoenix is a pretty well designed unit, that's why there isn't much talk about them. They basically made the phoenix a hybrid of the scout and corsair from BW, correcting some of the issues those units had from BW.
But the relative uselessness of Phoenix once Infestors are on the field isn't just a Phoenix problem, the same occurs in ZvZ with Mutas where they are a transition unit just like Phoenix are in PvZ. When Blizzard was testing Fungal not working on air units on the test server the community went into an uproar which, while understandable due to current WoL balance, should not deter Blizzard from revisiting the idea for HotS. However there has been talk about making Fungal into a projectile which may solve this issue without having to resort to Fungal not working on air units at all, although AoE on air units is such a slippery slope since air units can be clumped together very tightly. IMO AoE that can affect air units should be either non-existant or very, very limited. Thors (slow), HT (slow, small AoE that can be avoided, energy dependent) and Archons (very low range) all have AoE that can affect air but they are limited in many ways. The infestor in comparison is not nearly as limited.
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Northern Ireland23866 Posts
Ok so, the new patch has hit and it looks pretty intense. I'd be interested to know how the kind of general Protoss air tree is functioning these days. Watched a lot of the pro players playing but still haven't seen all that much Protoss airplay thus far
The Oracle thread seems to show that the Oracle is being pretty good in its harassment role, perhaps taking away from the niche of the Phoenix is what I gather thus far. Perhaps that's from the Oracle being new and shiny though, and the Phoenix being well explored.
Are more smooth transitions possible in say, PvZ from a Stargate opener? Perhaps a heavier Stargate approach with more focus on retaining them for map control, without as much need to go into Robo tech?
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United States4883 Posts
On December 07 2012 15:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ok so, the new patch has hit and it looks pretty intense. I'd be interested to know how the kind of general Protoss air tree is functioning these days. Watched a lot of the pro players playing but still haven't seen all that much Protoss airplay thus far
The Oracle thread seems to show that the Oracle is being pretty good in its harassment role, perhaps taking away from the niche of the Phoenix is what I gather thus far. Perhaps that's from the Oracle being new and shiny though, and the Phoenix being well explored.
Are more smooth transitions possible in say, PvZ from a Stargate opener? Perhaps a heavier Stargate approach with more focus on retaining them for map control, without as much need to go into Robo tech?
I think, as far as WoL PvZ goes, the biggest issue with committing hard to air play means you open yourself up to death by roach/ling at 12:00 or death by a big roach/hydra push around 13:00. The main reason for dying to either one of these is that you don't have enough firepower to kill them fast enough and zerg can constantly just remax and slowly pull ahead. This is why generally you'll see an air opening that transitions straight into immortal/sentry or even straight to colossus, sometimes to mass blink stalker. In HotS, roach/ling maxout is still viable and hydras are just as - if not more - viable as a zerg midgame option.
Of course, if you're committing hard to air, you won't be able to afford the gas cost of a tech change. Therefore, the best way I can think of to commit to air is to follow up your air harassment with 8 gates + warp prism play and taking a slightly later 3rd. In this way, you still have to make the transition to robo tech to round out your composition, but you just do it later. It MAY be possible to transition straight into templar/carrier from here, but I imagine the you open yourself up to a lot of timing attacks.
That's my opinion on it...I feel like opening stargate is still probably just going to be a transition into some other tech followed by a lategame switch back to stargate, much like it is in WoL. Although yes, air is going to end up being a lot stronger in HotS, it still can't deal with mass amounts of units until carriers get out.
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Northern Ireland23866 Posts
Yeah all interesting for sure. I just like the kind of map control and vision/harass potential you get from Stargate openers, but hate the way you lose much of that as soon as Infestors are out
I like the Stargate tech currently at least as I'm seeing it could allow say:
1. Harass-based Stargate into future harass-based plays
2. Map control opener into standard Robo tech OR Templar tech
3. Stargate opener into pure Skytoss
4. Stargate cheese build
And these might all be viable in HoTs if we figure them out, whereas currently I only see options 2 (with Robo) and 4 being used frequently in WoL
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i don't think its role is gonna be different in hots.
IF protoss players start to go air based armies in lategame pvz, i don't think they will include phoenixes since they are only good against mutas.
i guess they are a little better now with the fungal nerf, and maybe against some mech composistions from terran if terrans start doing those in hots (banshees, lifting tanks, etc.).
We will see! the phoenix is an awesome unit, and i have always liked its design concept.
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On December 07 2012 23:46 Wombat_NI wrote:
Yeah all interesting for sure. I just like the kind of map control and vision/harass potential you get from Stargate openers, but hate the way you lose much of that as soon as Infestors are out
I like the Stargate tech currently at least as I'm seeing it could allow say:
1. Harass-based Stargate into future harass-based plays
2. Map control opener into standard Robo tech OR Templar tech
3. Stargate opener into pure Skytoss
4. Stargate cheese build
And these might all be viable in HoTs if we figure them out, whereas currently I only see options 2 (with Robo) and 4 being used frequently in WoL
What I like is that now, even though all three units can be used for harassment(Void Ray, Phoenix and Oracle), they are all useful in different situation and it feels great combining them. Phoenix are still similar to the Oracles when we are talking about harassment, but unlike Phoenixes, you need only 1-3 Oracles to be effective at killing workers.
If they try defending with few Spores/Turrets, like 1-2 per base, you can always combine 1-2 Voids with new charge, and the opponent is forced to react.
Also, as people have said, when you went for Phoenix-centric build in WoL, like 4-6 Phoenixes, that is already pretty big investment even though you get the map control, you are pretty weak if Zerg decides to go an Roach and Ling all-in, where now, if you go for Oracles/Void Rays, both are actually pretty useful in defending from Roaches and Lings.
Even though Phoenixes are a bit overlapping with Oracles in harassment, lately, they have different purpose, Oracles will be support casters and Phoenixes are great anti-air units with the upgrade, they can even kite Corruptors now, and with their upgrade.
I really like what they are doing with this patch, they are shaking up the metagame, and are making a lot of new compositions viable.
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-How do you think the Phoenix currently fits in to Heart of the Swarm? Is it good/bad? Does it suffer from overlapping in role with other units?
I think it still has a pretty clear place. Mutas just got a buff. So did Medivacs. And Protoss just got a really powerful air-to-ground unit in the Oracle. This means that in addition to some harass, there is a pretty clear need for the Phoenix to deal with playstyles that emphasize dropping and/or harass with air units that can hit ground. I think the 5 range (and 7 with the upgrade) really help them feel a lot smoother to micro, and helps them both counter the units they're intended to counter, and harass a bit better without really putting too many of them at risk.
Its true that, as far as pure harass goes, the Oracle is better than the Phoenix by a substantial margin. Phoenixes need support from other units (even if just other Phoenixes) to kill any ground unit--meaning you need at least 2, and generally want 3 or 4 to do any damage at all. Once you get to that point, their dps for cost takes a huge hit since at least one less Phoenix will be able to attack. They also can only kill one worker per 50 energy. In comparison, Oracles need no support, and do crazy high dps, and can kill 6 workers per 50 energy. 3 Phoenixes will deal 36 dps to lifted workers (since only 2 can attack while the other lifts), and if you fly over right after you've made them, you'll be able to kill maybe 4 or 5 workers before you're out of energy. 3 Oracles will deal 87 dps to a worker line, and will pretty much have enough energy to kill the entire worker line.
But this ignores that Oracles, while useful in both harass and support, have low hp and they are purely air to ground, and even against ground they are fairly weak against anything that can hit air that isn't light and/or low hp--vikings and corruptors can't catch Oracles but can kjill them really quickly if they to stop and harass where they can get them (Oracles have high speed, but low acceleration which gives them a window of vulnerability when harassing), a queen with a single transfuse can kill an Oracle if it tries to fight head on, so can 2 stalkers or any static defense building. Mutalisks can chase Oracles down all over the map and kill them without the Oracles being able to do anything about it. In other words, Oracles work best with units that can give you air superiority to prevent enemy air units from chasing you down, and units that can deal with armored things that can hit air. Or as I like to call them, "Phoenixes and Void Rays"
Phoenixes, especially with their buffed range, are a very solid air superiority unit. Besides dealing incredibly well with mutas and helping a lot vs drop play, they trade pretty well with Vikings before Vikings reach critical mass, and can provide lifts to help out with air to ground units like queens. Void Rays are now much more useful in supplementing harassment, because they can deliver their charge attack upfront (and it now deals even higher dps vs armored and buildings), meaning they can snipe stalkers and static defense really quickly.
So do Phoenixes still have a role? And do they mesh well with other Protoss air units? In my opinion, yes, very much so. Air to air superiority unit, anti-drop defense, secondary harass and support. Yes, the role of fast aerial harasser has been usurped by the Oracle...but the truth is, Phoenixes have never been that great at filling that role anyway because graviton beam is so limited in use and their dps isn't that high (but you don't want to make graviton too cheap because it can also immobilize high power combat units, and you don't want to make their dps too high because their other attributes like speed, range and health are all very solid). This means if you made a bunch of Phoenixes, you could win air superiority but not do that much with it. The old Void Ray could hit ground, but since its slow and needed to charge up to start dealing decent damage, it had really poor synergy with the hit and run Phoenix.
Now, you can use Oracles as your primary air to ground harass unit, but use Phoenixes to win air superiority and make sure the opponent can't get to your Oracles and/or use the new Void Rays to help quickly take out static defense, stalkers and queens.
Basically, Phoenixes aren't really like Banshees--they're like Vikings. They're most at home killing shit in the air, and while they have some functionality for killing ground, its more of a supplementary role than their true purpose. Oracles are much closer to that Banshee role. And, just like Banshees, they don't eliminate the need for air-to-air support, they increase the need for air to air. Banshees don't make Vikings less valuable, they make them more valuable. Same with Oracles and Phoenixes.
The roles for air are clear:
Oracle--harassment air to ground damage dealer, also useful vs ground compositions heavy on light units, as the game develops can transition into a support spellcaster that also provides map awareness
Phoenix - air superiority fighter, anti-drop/muta/banshee/oracle unit (mutas and medivacs were buffed for HotS, Oracles are a new addition), has a secondary role providing some supplementary harass and support by lifting workers and priority units--meaning you don't get a Phoenix specifically to deal worker line damage, but if you have a couple, they can chip in that way and not be totally useless.
Void Ray - generalist core air unit, cost effective vs. armored and fairly capable vs most compositions, also provides strong anti-static defense capabilities and general building sniping. Blizzard said they wanted a pure air composition of Voids+Phoenix/Oracle support to be viable in most situations, and the general dps buff + ability to trigger charge on command goes a long way towards making that possible.
Tempest - Anti-capital ship/colossus unit, priority unit (e.g. spellcasters, tanks) sniper, engagement forcer/way of punishing opponents who dance around too much trying to bait wasted spells and abilities. The unit that fixes lategame PvP and PvZ.
Carrier - lategame transition, makes an air composition much stronger overall when mixed in, particularly vs. mech (which will be much more common in HotS). Carriers have always been strong, but making the transition was really difficult because it was so hard to really commit to air (and Carriers are so upgrade dependant). Now, air overall has gotten a big buff, and Carriers have been further buffed as well via their new micro capabilities. This means that Protoss is much more likely to be able to go air throughout the game, get upgrades for it, and then transition into Carriers late in the game.
-If it's good, can Phoenix play synergise properly with other aspects of the race to enable the kind of army splitting, multitasking-intensive playstyle I very briefly outlined?
Yes.
As I've outlined above, the Protoss air fleet synergizes quite well--each unit has a clear role, and together there is very little they cannot do. Protoss as a race thrives on composition balance. For example, Zealots, Stalkers and Sentries are all limited on their own, but mixed together they can complement each other's strengths and hide weaknesses.
The new Protoss air force is much the same. The new Void Ray is much improved in harassment and a pretty good generalist unit, particularly vs. armored, but it still has weaknesses--it is too slow to effectively counter drops, mutas or oracles, it is cost inefficient vs most light units, and anything with really high armor (like the new Thor), and while charge allows it to snipe buildings quickly it is still fairly slow to kill workers. Oracles can kill workers and other ground light units really well, but do nothing vs. drops and air units. Phoenixes fill the anti-air and anti-drop role, and can also chip in in other ways as a secondary role with lifts. Together, they can deal with nearly anything in the game until higher tier spellcasters and massive units hit the field of play, at which point you'll want to add Tempests.
The effect of all this is that, in a way it was not in WoL, in HotS Skytoss should be 100% viable.
And the one really nice thing about Protoss air comps...is that they're much less prone to deathball syndrome. Oracles and Phoenixes are at their best being used all over the map. Tempests are best kept in a separate control group behind other units. Each of the Protoss air units has different speed, meaning that even if for some reason they were on one hotkey they'd naturally separate very quickly.
Basically, the more Protoss can be incentivized to go for a heavy air playstyle, the better off the race will be. Compared with Robo units, Stargate units are simply more skill intensive to use, more apm/multitask heavy, vastly less prone to unattractive clumping and deathballing, and simply more fun to both watch and play with,
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On December 07 2012 23:29 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 15:19 Wombat_NI wrote:
Ok so, the new patch has hit and it looks pretty intense. I'd be interested to know how the kind of general Protoss air tree is functioning these days. Watched a lot of the pro players playing but still haven't seen all that much Protoss airplay thus far
The Oracle thread seems to show that the Oracle is being pretty good in its harassment role, perhaps taking away from the niche of the Phoenix is what I gather thus far. Perhaps that's from the Oracle being new and shiny though, and the Phoenix being well explored.
Are more smooth transitions possible in say, PvZ from a Stargate opener? Perhaps a heavier Stargate approach with more focus on retaining them for map control, without as much need to go into Robo tech? I think, as far as WoL PvZ goes, the biggest issue with committing hard to air play means you open yourself up to death by roach/ling at 12:00 or death by a big roach/hydra push around 13:00. The main reason for dying to either one of these is that you don't have enough firepower to kill them fast enough and zerg can constantly just remax and slowly pull ahead. This is why generally you'll see an air opening that transitions straight into immortal/sentry or even straight to colossus, sometimes to mass blink stalker. In HotS, roach/ling maxout is still viable and hydras are just as - if not more - viable as a zerg midgame option. Of course, if you're committing hard to air, you won't be able to afford the gas cost of a tech change. Therefore, the best way I can think of to commit to air is to follow up your air harassment with 8 gates + warp prism play and taking a slightly later 3rd. In this way, you still have to make the transition to robo tech to round out your composition, but you just do it later. It MAY be possible to transition straight into templar/carrier from here, but I imagine the you open yourself up to a lot of timing attacks. That's my opinion on it...I feel like opening stargate is still probably just going to be a transition into some other tech followed by a lategame switch back to stargate, much like it is in WoL. Although yes, air is going to end up being a lot stronger in HotS, it still can't deal with mass amounts of units until carriers get out.
This, 1,00 times over. I spent a good part of last night playing Stargate games, and it felt like building anything more than two or three Oracles would just invite being run over by Roach, Roach/Hydra, or any bio composition. Between the energy limitation and Void Ray's charge ability, Protoss air doesn't provide serious backstab threats, the damage it can do is very limited.
Further, the really long build times on the Oracle and Void Ray feel disproportionately long to the damage they do. Sure, it's great to say that Oracles force some static defenses, so you build a couple Void Rays to kill them, but in reality, you don't have enough chrono boost available to get two Void Rays out anything faster than two minutes after the first Oracles if you're building more than one Oracle. By the time the second Void Ray gets to the enemy base, a Zerg can have built a Spire and Mutalisks if they'd done fast tech to Lair, or if they hadn't, build their Lair and Hydralisk Den before the Void Rays arrive.
Basically, opening Stargate seems to be either build one Oracle, kill six or so workers, and transition out of Stargate, or build three Oracles, keep them hidden until you have three, then go kill some workers and transition out of Stargate.
Well, against Terran, you can sort of transition to Stargate + something else, as 4 or so Oracles for Time Warp is pretty good against Bio.
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EPT
