EPTDavid Kim Implies Vortex Rework Coming - Page 4
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
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Masada714
United States89 Posts
On October 29 2012 10:48 Plansix wrote: Agreed, but we should support anything that will help Protoss deal with Broodlord/infestor. I am not sure if it is worse the BC/viking battles, but it is close. We should also support any effort to end the War of World end game for PvP. It is such garbage to watch. I support the plan of making the tempest a better, more viable unit. Right now the unit is useful and because it can shoot ground, it has a place in the late game. I would like to see it used on better maps with features that it could use to zone out BL and colossi armies. The unit has the ability to be solid, but need to be worth the investment. I definitely agree with you as well. I think it might even be more important to make Tempest viable in PvP so there isn't always War of the Worlds. Imo, air is not even a good option at all right now. When the Dev team starts making changes to WoL units, it will hopefully open up options in PvZ specifically to make Air work and lessen the strength of the Zerg deathball. | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On October 29 2012 10:36 Masada714 wrote: As a protoss myself, Tempests in theory are good in PvZ if there is only Broodlords and/or Infestors. The problem with this is the Zerg having Corruptors in the army. I've tried building Tempests late game and the Zerg just makes a handful of Corruptors and just crush the Tempests. You can't run away with the Tempests either cause they are just slower. It is similar in PvP as well. I've been the one building them and go against them. When I see a Protoss build Tempests it is like a free win. I just build a whole bunch of Stalkers and kill them. It is also because they cost so much that the Protoss won't have much of a ground army to support them or your opponents army is just so much bigger that you can flat out ignore them. I'm not sure what is the right answer for them at this point. It seems like the only situation they are viable in is super late game to snipe BL's. I would like to see them possibly have splash back or some way to effectively deal with Corruptors. What's the range on the Tempest right now? Sure you can't outrun corruptors, but the Tempest should be able to fire on the broodlords from within their supporting army right? Corruptors can come and snipe them, but similarly the corruptors will die to stalker fire. | ||
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Masada714
United States89 Posts
On October 29 2012 12:44 BoxingKangaroo wrote: What's the range on the Tempest right now? Sure you can't outrun corruptors, but the Tempest should be able to fire on the broodlords from within their supporting army right? Corruptors can come and snipe them, but similarly the corruptors will die to stalker fire. The range is 15, however maximizing that range can be an issue as well. Since any decent Zerg will have an Overseer with that army so you can't just have an obs on them to get vision. The only way I see getting good vision is with the Oracle and the Revelation spell. It is a tough situation but by no means unwinnable for Protoss. I would just like to see the Tempest do a little better against the Corruptor since no air does well against them in realistic situations. | ||
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Motiva
United States1774 Posts
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Antylamon
United States1981 Posts
On October 29 2012 08:54 Freeborn wrote: I personally really hate all those pvz ending with broods,infestor corrupter vs collosi, stalker, archon mothership hinging on those vortexes being cast. I do too, but Vortex is being reworked, and Tempests are shifting towards being the answer. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D And now we wait for word about FF... I imagine they'll nerf the unpopular spells a bit, to make them more situational (and to better reward efficiency?). Make FF cost 75 energy, for instance, and make Vortex only work on air (so no archons in there), and smaller stuff like that. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5224 Posts
If the Tempest is one dimensional like the Phoenix, then it just won't work. What will happen is both players will build Colossus, realize the other is building Colossus and build Tempests, then realize the other is building Tempests and build more Tempests since they counter themselves (mass Voids could be an option, but Archons and Stalkers are great vs Void Rays). Then someone will realize that if someone invests in Tempests, just make more Colossus and kill off their ground support, then do a mass Warp in of Blink Stalkers and laugh at the Tempests left over. This is exactly what people do in PvZ. Force your opponent to overmake Corrupters, then roll over them with Blink Stalkers. A good Zerg limits his Corrupters and uses Infestors well, but Corrupters can change into Broodlords and end up in a ground attack role. The Tempest however, like the Phoenix, has no role to transition to. | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On October 29 2012 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote: The problem with the Tempest in PvP is the same problem the Phoenix has in PvZ. Sure the Phoenix is great against Mutalisks, but it has limited roles beyond that. And that is why you see pro players simply not using the Phoenix vs Mutalisks, they use Blink Stalkers, Archons and High Templar, because they are useful in many roles beyond killing Mutalisks. If the Tempest is one dimensional like the Phoenix, then it just won't work. What will happen is both players will build Colossus, realize the other is building Colossus and build Tempests, then realize the other is building Tempests and build more Tempests since they counter themselves (mass Voids could be an option, but Archons and Stalkers are great vs Void Rays). Then someone will realize that if someone invests in Tempests, just make more Colossus and kill off their ground support, then do a mass Warp in of Blink Stalkers and laugh at the Tempests left over. This is exactly what people do in PvZ. Force your opponent to overmake Corrupters, then roll over them with Blink Stalkers. A good Zerg limits his Corrupters and use Infestors well, but Corrupters can change into Broodlords and end up in a ground attack role. The Tempest however, like the Phoenix, has no role to transition to. tempest hits ground, phoenix doesn't... to me this makes them worlds apart | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5224 Posts
On October 29 2012 14:15 mishimaBeef wrote: tempest hits ground, phoenix doesn't... to me this makes them worlds apart Tempests do 9 DPS to non-massive ground units and cost 300/200. Two Marines (no upgrades, no stim) do 14 DPS to all units and cost 100/0. One Stalker does 9.7 DPS to armored units and costs 125/50. I don't really know what else to say. I mean a Void Ray does 10 DPS to a Zergling uncharged and costs 250/150, and how bad are Void Rays vs Zerglings? Believe it or not, not as bad as Tempests... Tempests are terrible vs non-massive ground units. | ||
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
On October 29 2012 14:15 mishimaBeef wrote: tempest hits ground, phoenix doesn't... to me this makes them worlds apart He is not comparing the units, he is comparing the utility of the units. Both these units become almost useless and actually detriment your army once their hard counter victim is gone. The same can (and is) said of Vikings in TvP. Once the colossus are gone the entire supply of Vikings is a detriment to the rest of your composition because they become useless. It is a problem with their design. This is why soft counters are generally the better choice (eg using Blink Stalkers/High Templar/Archons vs Mutalisk) because they still retain usefulness once the threat is dealt with. Choosing a soft counter over a hard counter is not always so easy tho, as in the case of Vikings. Because if you don't use Vikings what else can you use? For the Vikings vs Colossus case solutions could include either altering another units role to alllow it to be an additional option to use against Colossus, Design a new unit which could help against Colossus or to Modify the Viking itself to give it utility once the colossus is gone (Eg make its ground form more useful). The Tempest has been slowly tuned in role to become a hard counter to massive units, but in more recent patches they have begun trying to broaden its uses more (eg more base damage, less +massive damage so it does the same vs massive but a bit more than it did vs non massive) to elevate some of the issues hard counter units have and to open up more uses to the unit. This is exactly what needs to be done. Not only to this unit, but to many of the hard counter units in the game which fall too deeply into niche uses. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5224 Posts
On October 29 2012 14:39 DeCoup wrote: He is not comparing the units, he is comparing the utility of the units. Both these units become almost useless and actually detriment your army once their hard counter victim is gone. The same can (and is) said of Vikings in TvP. Once the colossus are gone the entire supply of Vikings is a detriment to the rest of your composition because they become useless. It is a problem with their design. This is why soft counters are generally the better choice (eg using Blink Stalkers/High Templar/Archons vs Mutalisk) because they still retain usefulness once the threat is dealt with. Choosing a soft counter over a hard counter is not always so easy tho, as in the case of Vikings. Because if you don't use Vikings what else can you use? For the Vikings vs Colossus case solutions could include either altering another units role to alllow it to be an additional option to use against Colossus, Design a new unit which could help against Colossus or to Modify the Viking itself to give it utility once the colossus is gone (Eg make its ground form more useful). The Tempest has been slowly tuned in role to become a hard counter to massive units, but in more recent patches they have begun trying to broaden its uses more (eg more base damage, less +massive damage so it does the same vs massive but a bit more than it did vs non massive) to elevate some of the issues hard counter units have and to open up more uses to the unit. This is exactly what needs to be done. Not only to this unit, but to many of the hard counter units in the game which fall too deeply into niche uses. I wish I could have stated it so eloquently. And it is what I try to do here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378373 regarding units like the Immortal and Tempest. I feel like I need to rewrite sections and plagiarize what you wrote... I won't do it though. However, the Viking is better vs ground units than Tempest is. A single Viking at less than half the cost of a Tempest does 12 DPS to ground units. | ||
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Millet
Sweden143 Posts
On October 29 2012 06:01 YyapSsap wrote: What happens if it becomes tempest wars now? lol Won't happen, since stalkers are really good vs only tempests. Before it was: who ever has most colossi wins. But now it should be: Tempest > Colossus Colossus > Only gateway units Only gateway units > Tempests This is the dynamic that tempests will probably pull off, and that is great. We don't want stale match-ups. At first I was unsure of the tempest, but it is starting to find its role. GJ to blizzard! | ||
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MasterCynical
505 Posts
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Technique
Netherlands1542 Posts
On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote: This. So bad. And of course the mothership core with it. I'm in the beta and I hate the msc. It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Plus hero units have no place outside of the campaign. Msc is really nice actually, especially in p mirror, cuts down on the 2 proxy gate cheese even if u seen it coming a bit late. And it gives protoss the chance to roam the map a bit more freely. | ||
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 29 2012 19:59 Vanadiel wrote: I don't really want to see Vortex go away, the initial idea behind it is still good imo, the problem for me here is the archon toilet, not the vortex itself. If you do such as units that cames out of a vortex cannot be attacked right away, and that infestor cannot neural a mothership, you'll give to the mothership its initial role, which allow to cut army in two and gives you positional advantages. Yes and no. Generally I agree, but I think that it's generally bad, because the units come out clumped heavily and no matter what you Vortex, as long as you close in with splash it's a deadly move - not just an "I win" like with the Archon toilet vs slow declumping Air-Units, but it's still extremly deadly. Imo they should keep the Vortex, but make it impossible that your own units enter it or maybe generally that other units than the ones that were caught initially enter it. Having two enemy armies coming out in one big clump makes it quite bad, because it just destroys every form of micro or positioning. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On October 29 2012 20:06 Big J wrote: Yes and no. Generally I agree, but I think that it's generally bad, because the units come out clumped heavily and no matter what you Vortex, as long as you close in with splash it's a deadly move - not just an "I win" like with the Archon toilet vs slow declumping Air-Units, but it's still extremly deadly. Imo they should keep the Vortex, but make it impossible that your own units enter it or maybe generally that other units than the ones that were caught initially enter it. Having two enemy armies coming out in one big clump makes it quite bad, because it just destroys every form of micro or positioning. just giving the MS stasis field instead of vortex would do that. still dont like the micropreventing spells and vortex is a really hard one. best thing would be to remove it completely and give MS another spell...or just remove the stupid hero unit completely. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On October 29 2012 10:56 awesomoecalypse wrote: Protoss air is getting to a really cool place, design-wise. Some numbers might need tweaking, and the Void Ray's role isn't super clear, but the overall design direction of the Protoss fleet has a lot of very cool uses, and feels so much more powerful and flexible than Stargate in HotS Funny thing is, right now the only real use for void rays i can think of is to take out tempests in PvP :p | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 29 2012 20:10 Decendos wrote: just giving the MS stasis field instead of vortex would do that. still dont like the micropreventing spells and vortex is a really hard one. best thing would be to remove it completely and give MS another spell...or just remove the stupid hero unit completely. I think the Mothership is a great opportunity. I mean there are abilities that are probably too hard to balance in a good way (for example recall - didn't make it in WoL on the Arbiter, didn't make it in HotS on the Nexus) but are really exciting. Having a unit that is limited to 1, makes it so that such spells can be implemented. Vortex is not such an ability. It looks like one, but the splash+vortex combo turns it from a strong positional spell into a wincondition. But: Recall is probably such an ability (the alternative would be to severly limit the amount of units that can be recalled - which is basically a different spell) Mass cloak is maybe such an ability Macroboosting spells are probably such abilities Spells like energize that would break the game if two MSCs could energize each other are possible Making such a unit a little stronger per cost and per timing than it should be is possible, because they cannot be massed Hero units grant many interesting possibilities. The problem is simply that the Mothership is not in the right spot, because Vortex is the thing that blizzard did not want to give the mothership | ||
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