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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/7006241439
Our goal with this [Tempest] unit is described well by Phantom. The main purpose for this unit is definitely to deal with mass colossi in PvP as well as to force an engagement vs. Zerg who is sitting back being on the defensive with mass Infestors/Broodlords. We eventually want to phase out Vortex a bit once we are sure Tempests are working well.
The secondary use of Tempest is to pressure the opponent in the mid game, but not kill everything the opponent has.
We just made a couple changes to buff both scenarios, so please give the Tempest another try and let us know how it feels now. Thank you.
Blizzard wants Tempests to fix colossi wars PvP and Broodlord/Infestor in ZvP. Do you think they are succeeding?
What do people with the beta think of PvP and ZvP currently?
Edit: I suppose he could've also meant keep Vortex, but give Protoss users more options so they do not have to rely on it exclusively.
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all i know is they're raping in PvT's i've been watching. in theory it makes sense they would also be able to hold their own against colossi and brood lords but i haven't seen any of it yet.
he may have been saying that they intend to nerf vortex a bit? it kinda makes sense - they were probably hesitant to nerf it before considering it's so important to lategame PvZ, but if the tempest gives lategame P enough breathing room to play it out without using vortex everytime then they're able to tweak the mothership more freely.
personally i think when the mothership hits the board, you should be scared. it's the protoss army's mobile base and it should be powerful (when properly supported). but one or two vortexes to end the game does get old. personally i'd like to see vortex be less pivotal and the mothership itself more pivotal. but i don't think we can expect a drastic redesign of the unit for HotS, unless the beta goes on way longer than WoL beta did.
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If they had any sense they would delete the mothership.
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Vortex needs to go so bad
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I hope what he means is that the Tempest will eventually make Vortex obsolete and it can be removed from the game.
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Either way, I hope vortex just starts getting used a lot less. I would love to see it just be a niche spell you see every once in a while. It seems like common knowledge at this point that having a match-up rest entirely on one spell is poor design, and just boring...
That all being said, I am one of the (apparently very few) people left on TL who has faith in blizz to make an awesome expansion at the end of the day. They know vortex is a problem and they will do something about it properly sooner or later.
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It would be a great first step in making late game zvp a little more exciting if it all didn't go down to vortex, still think other issues need to be resolved though in zvp in general (i'm not even talking about balance, but to somehow make the mu somewhat entertaining would be nice xD)
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Am I the only one less excited by the removal of Vortex and more excited by the prospect of a new spell on the Mothership?
I hope it gets Planet Cracker back.
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how's zerg supposed to win the end game ?
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On October 29 2012 05:06 wcr.4fun wrote: how's zerg supposed to win the end game ?
Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor... Maybe Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor/Viper
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Fix the title please. Not rework. Removal.
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On October 29 2012 05:17 Prodigal wrote: Fix the title please. Not rework. Removal. If you reread what Dayvie said, he wants to phase it out a bit. Removal isn't phasing it out just a bit, it's phasing it out entirely.
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it would also add a dynamic to TvP where the more mobile Stargate play harasses/forces Mech to engage, but that would mean that Mech has to be much stronger (because right now it's fine defensively but its very hard to pressure/punish some things since u have to have perfect engagements)
also i don't understand, why can't they just buff Void rays to do more damage vs Massive units? And then Tempest can still force engagements with its long range and harass, but it would be weaker since it doesn't also counter Colossi/BL.
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Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF...
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On October 29 2012 05:19 Ljas wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:17 Prodigal wrote: Fix the title please. Not rework. Removal. If you reread what Dayvie said, he wants to phase it out a bit. Removal isn't phasing it out just a bit, it's phasing it out entirely. Well vortex is a binary spell. Phasing out a spell like that would imply: -changing duration and cost -changing its effect (removing invulnerability, damage over time... Whatever creative idea you can think of) The former would a buff or nerf, the nerf being only 1 vortex per battle. The latter would change the spell entirely, most likely including a name change.
In any case, the current iteration of vortex is removed. So a title that isint misleading would include removal, or nerf.
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On October 29 2012 05:37 Prodigal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:19 Ljas wrote:On October 29 2012 05:17 Prodigal wrote: Fix the title please. Not rework. Removal. If you reread what Dayvie said, he wants to phase it out a bit. Removal isn't phasing it out just a bit, it's phasing it out entirely. Well vortex is a binary spell. Phasing out a spell like that would imply: -changing duration and cost -changing its effect (removing invulnerability, damage over time... Whatever creative idea you can think of) The former would a buff or nerf, the nerf being only 1 vortex per battle. The latter would change the spell entirely, most likely including a name change. In any case, the current iteration of vortex is removed. So a title that isint misleading would include removal, or nerf.
They already played with that in the alpha. Vortex only hits ground. I believe that is what they will re-implement. Just like they removed all the BC changes (that were already confirmed at the end of the alpha), just like they removed all the Raven changes (that were very logical), they removed the Vortex change, so that people had to test the new units first. (if you watched the first week of the beta... TvZ was just mass Raven+BC; "New units? YAMATOOOOOOOOOOO")
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On October 29 2012 05:41 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:37 Prodigal wrote:On October 29 2012 05:19 Ljas wrote:On October 29 2012 05:17 Prodigal wrote: Fix the title please. Not rework. Removal. If you reread what Dayvie said, he wants to phase it out a bit. Removal isn't phasing it out just a bit, it's phasing it out entirely. Well vortex is a binary spell. Phasing out a spell like that would imply: -changing duration and cost -changing its effect (removing invulnerability, damage over time... Whatever creative idea you can think of) The former would a buff or nerf, the nerf being only 1 vortex per battle. The latter would change the spell entirely, most likely including a name change. In any case, the current iteration of vortex is removed. So a title that isint misleading would include removal, or nerf. They already played with that in the alpha. Vortex only hits ground. I believe that is what they will re-implement. Just like they removed all the BC changes (that were already confirmed at the end of the alpha), just like they removed all the Raven changes (that were very logical), they removed the Vortex change, so that people had to test the new units first. (if you watched the first week of the beta... TvZ was just mass Raven+BC; "New units? YAMATOOOOOOOOOOO")
Question, what were the raven changes? Sounds very interesting, thanks in advance!
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100 energy HSM was one. Didn't see others
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On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF...
haha if they managed to take out FF without fucking up everything I would shed tears of happiness
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On October 29 2012 05:54 Leviance wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... haha if they managed to take out FF without fucking up everything I would shed tears of happiness Rather see it nerfed badly then taken out. Imagine better gateway units, and more expensive, higher tier forcefield.
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What happens if it becomes tempest wars now? lol
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On October 29 2012 05:59 Prodigal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:54 Leviance wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... haha if they managed to take out FF without fucking up everything I would shed tears of happiness Rather see it nerfed badly then taken out. Imagine better gateway units, and more expensive, higher tier forcefield.
Doubt it will happen.
Blizz doesn't think Gateway units are "weak" (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375022) so I doubt they'll make them better.
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On October 29 2012 05:59 Prodigal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:54 Leviance wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... haha if they managed to take out FF without fucking up everything I would shed tears of happiness Rather see it nerfed badly then taken out. Imagine better gateway units, and more expensive, higher tier forcefield.
no more vortex and no more FF would be such awesome changes.
with tempests vortex might not be needed anymore.
with MsC which gives better defense and offensive (recall) FF might not be needed anymore too or at least be nerfed a lot without hurting mid- and lategame P (where FF arent used anyway).
one can dream :D
On October 29 2012 06:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:59 Prodigal wrote:On October 29 2012 05:54 Leviance wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... haha if they managed to take out FF without fucking up everything I would shed tears of happiness Rather see it nerfed badly then taken out. Imagine better gateway units, and more expensive, higher tier forcefield. Doubt it will happen. Blizz doesn't think Gateway units are "weak" (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375022) so I doubt they'll make them better.
and they are right. gateway units without blink and charge are weak on their own. with blink and charge they are really strong which is the reason they cant buff gateway units straight up.
but early recall lets the weaker gateway units pressure without dying which is a very nice fix and might end with a possible FF nerf or even removal which would be awesome.
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Italy12246 Posts
On October 29 2012 05:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: it would also add a dynamic to TvP where the more mobile Stargate play harasses/forces Mech to engage, but that would mean that Mech has to be much stronger (because right now it's fine defensively but its very hard to pressure/punish some things since u have to have perfect engagements)
also i don't understand, why can't they just buff Void rays to do more damage vs Massive units? And then Tempest can still force engagements with its long range and harass, but it would be weaker since it doesn't also counter Colossi/BL.
Void rays already do bonus vs massive. They are still useless in both pvp and pvz.
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On October 29 2012 06:02 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:59 Prodigal wrote:On October 29 2012 05:54 Leviance wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... haha if they managed to take out FF without fucking up everything I would shed tears of happiness Rather see it nerfed badly then taken out. Imagine better gateway units, and more expensive, higher tier forcefield. Doubt it will happen. Blizz doesn't think Gateway units are "weak" (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375022) so I doubt they'll make them better.
I dont think they are weak either (especially zealots), but they look weak when attacked by a small group of bio with stim mainly because of marauders. Actually everything looks weak in that scenario which means something can be done about the OPness.
Assuming the FF is gone, I think they should at the least make immortals with weaker stats/cost and a change to its hardened shield (also an upgrade) as a gateway unit while turning the stalker into a more mobile/less damage/hp unit. The former has bonus to +armoured and the latter with bonus to +light?
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On October 29 2012 06:02 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:59 Prodigal wrote:On October 29 2012 05:54 Leviance wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... haha if they managed to take out FF without fucking up everything I would shed tears of happiness Rather see it nerfed badly then taken out. Imagine better gateway units, and more expensive, higher tier forcefield. no more vortex and no more FF would be such awesome changes. with tempests vortex might not be needed anymore. I agree with that. If Tempests turn out not to resolve the issue, then it's buffing time.
with MsC which gives better defense and offensive (recall) FF might not be needed anymore too or at least be nerfed a lot without hurting mid- and lategame P (where FF arent used anyway).
one can dream :D I believe that Sim-city combined with the Mothership Core can resolve the FF issue. It's a simple matter of Toss adjusting, which Terran has been doing since day 1. Then the Sentry needs a new core ability to make it interesting. Ideas, anyone?
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cloaking of mothership needs to go imo
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its not just that zerg is being defensive, until they have that army they cant attack protoss because bl/infestor is the only viable composition
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Anything that removes the volatility of landing a single vortex/neural and breaks up the turtle BL/Infestor is a good thing. I hope the Tempest can achieve that. To me it seems that the recent changes might actually achieve that, but without beta or any beta-streaming pros it's hard to tell. Let's hope that after all the November tournaments are done, more pros can be bothered to participate in the beta.
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On October 29 2012 06:15 EssenceSC wrote: its not just that zerg is being defensive, until they have that army they cant attack protoss because bl/infestor is the only viable composition
well yeah the other part of the BL infestor problem is that every other zerg composition gets crushed by the deathball. since the new HOTS units get better and better blizzard can start reworking 1-2 WoL units every week in 1-2 weeks. hydra needs lots of buffs and lategame swarmhost upgrades.
i like that they buffed ultrachargespeed to make it more viable ZvP but i think it is still a little too slow. but hey, they recognize a lot of problems and try to fix them which is awesome :-)
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I'd love to see vortex completely gone, it's a cool-looking spell but it's not fun to use and not fun to be the target of. Give mothership a new and interesting ability.
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On October 29 2012 05:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:41 Big J wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Prodigal wrote:On October 29 2012 05:19 Ljas wrote:On October 29 2012 05:17 Prodigal wrote: Fix the title please. Not rework. Removal. If you reread what Dayvie said, he wants to phase it out a bit. Removal isn't phasing it out just a bit, it's phasing it out entirely. Well vortex is a binary spell. Phasing out a spell like that would imply: -changing duration and cost -changing its effect (removing invulnerability, damage over time... Whatever creative idea you can think of) The former would a buff or nerf, the nerf being only 1 vortex per battle. The latter would change the spell entirely, most likely including a name change. In any case, the current iteration of vortex is removed. So a title that isint misleading would include removal, or nerf. They already played with that in the alpha. Vortex only hits ground. I believe that is what they will re-implement. Just like they removed all the BC changes (that were already confirmed at the end of the alpha), just like they removed all the Raven changes (that were very logical), they removed the Vortex change, so that people had to test the new units first. (if you watched the first week of the beta... TvZ was just mass Raven+BC; "New units? YAMATOOOOOOOOOOO") Question, what were the raven changes? Sounds very interesting, thanks in advance!
Raven to 2.5 speed and HSM energy cost to 100. Migth be that stuff like this returns
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On October 29 2012 05:59 Prodigal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:54 Leviance wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... haha if they managed to take out FF without fucking up everything I would shed tears of happiness Rather see it nerfed badly then taken out. Imagine better gateway units, and more expensive, higher tier forcefield.
Not me I would rather FF be removed and protoss gateway units buffed to compensate.
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I don't like tempest at all, lost every time i focused too much on them.
Fine for 1-2 in the main army, but that's about it... they are too low damage in higher number (for their cost/food).
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On October 29 2012 05:59 Prodigal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:54 Leviance wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... haha if they managed to take out FF without fucking up everything I would shed tears of happiness Rather see it nerfed badly then taken out. Imagine better gateway units, and more expensive, higher tier forcefield.
you could probably nerf FF heavy by just changing the maps layout...
I mean, with MsC for early-mid game and Oracle for mid-late game, maybe maps could start being more wide-open, this would nerf FF and other AoEs, while also increasing the power of surrounds and overall positioning.
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I think the Tempest as it is right now does a great job in PvZ against BL/Infestor.
My concern as a Zerg player is what do we go for in the late game now? Roaches late game become cost/supply inefficient. Hydras lose to every gateway unit the Protoss has, and I'm not sold on Ultra's burrow charge changing anything in this matchup as long as Chargelots and Immortals are in the game as is. Is Swarm Host/hydra/Infestor/Corruptor supposed to be Zergs answer to Protoss players with Tempests/Collossi/Stalkers? I'm concerned that Hydras just won't be able to cut it in the DPS department.
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On October 29 2012 04:48 murphs wrote: If they had any sense they would delete the mothership.
This. So bad.
And of course the mothership core with it. I'm in the beta and I hate the msc. It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it.
Plus hero units have no place outside of the campaign.
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On October 29 2012 07:35 sagefreke wrote: I think the Tempest as it is right now does a great job in PvZ against BL/Infestor.
My concern as a Zerg player is what do we go for in the late game now? Roaches late game become cost/supply inefficient. Hydras lose to every gateway unit the Protoss has, and I'm not sold on Ultra's burrow charge changing anything in this matchup as long as Chargelots and Immortals are in the game as is. Is Swarm Host/hydra/Infestor/Corruptor supposed to be Zergs answer to Protoss players with Tempests/Collossi/Stalkers? I'm concerned that Hydras just won't be able to cut it in the DPS department. probably vipers, but I think they need a little buff to their HP.
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On October 29 2012 07:35 sagefreke wrote: I think the Tempest as it is right now does a great job in PvZ against BL/Infestor.
My concern as a Zerg player is what do we go for in the late game now? Roaches late game become cost inefficient. Hydras lose to every gateway unit the Protoss has, and I'm not sold on Ultra's burrow charge changing anything in this matchup as long as Chargelots and Immortals are in the game as is. Is Swarm Host/hydra/Infestor/Corruptor supposed to be Zergs answer to Protoss players with Tempests/Collossi/Stalkers? I'm concerned that Hydras just won't be able to cut it in the DPS department.
Hydras own EVERY gateway unit, the only thing that owns hydras is a collossus. Also do you have ANY IDEA how much free units a zerg has when he has broods, infestor and swarm hosts? Plus the ultralisk burrow charge is pretty amazing. Don't fear for the zerg they have even more new stuff than the protoss. And they are dominating right now anyways.
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On October 29 2012 07:25 Technique wrote: I don't like tempest at all, lost every time i focused too much on them.
Fine for 1-2 in the main army, but that's about it... they are too low damage in higher number (for their cost/food). That is the whole point... to not focus too much on them. Make 2-4 max, they can snipe Brood Lords, Ultras and Infestors pretty easily, and they will force the engagement. They can also work as early harass units, much better than the Void Ray, because of the range. The unit itself is great.
Btw, I think they will make a Vortex close to what Stasis was in the SC BW. Would actually support idea because it would be used as a control spell, not walk-my-army-into-it-and-destroy-everything spell.
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On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 04:48 murphs wrote: If they had any sense they would delete the mothership. This. So bad. And of course the mothership core with it. I'm in the beta and I hate the msc. It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Plus hero units have no place outside of the campaign.
I disagree, the MsC allows for so much new stuff for protoss that makes me cry from joy, also, if there is one unit that can reduce the protoss need of sentries, it's the MsC.
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On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote: It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Really? Really?
What about Mass Recall? That allows Toss to actually have some early game and mid-game presence without their entire army dying to a ling surround.
Photon Overcharge allows Toss not to die if they don't do a Forge FE. And with Forge FE, Toss dies anyways if Zerg 6pools.
Hell, Envision opens up Stargate tech for Toss. Is that limiting gameplay?
I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea from. I mean, maybe somewhat, because every game would start with getting a Mothership Core, but is it really all that different from 1Rax FE or even Zerg's early game, aka cheese or FE? Plus, there's the choice of going Nexus first, or Gateway first, or Gas first, or even Forge first.
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On October 29 2012 04:48 murphs wrote: If they had any sense they would delete the mothership. Yeah, that's not going to happen. Not with their new unit being a baby Mothership.
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On October 29 2012 07:39 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:35 sagefreke wrote: I think the Tempest as it is right now does a great job in PvZ against BL/Infestor.
My concern as a Zerg player is what do we go for in the late game now? Roaches late game become cost inefficient. Hydras lose to every gateway unit the Protoss has, and I'm not sold on Ultra's burrow charge changing anything in this matchup as long as Chargelots and Immortals are in the game as is. Is Swarm Host/hydra/Infestor/Corruptor supposed to be Zergs answer to Protoss players with Tempests/Collossi/Stalkers? I'm concerned that Hydras just won't be able to cut it in the DPS department. Hydras own EVERY gateway unit, the only thing that owns hydras is a collossus. Also do you have ANY IDEA how much free units a zerg has when he has broods, infestor and swarm hosts? Plus the ultralisk burrow charge is pretty amazing. Don't fear for the zerg they have even more new stuff than the protoss. And they are dominating right now anyways.
I don't think Hydras own every gateway unit at all... Chargelots shred them. Blink Stalkers mitigate damage well enough that Hydras end up losing the engagement... There's a good reason why pros don't use Hydras in ZvP anymore. The speed upgrade is not going to change anything in terms of winning straight up engagements against gateway units when it's been concluded that Roach/ling is a much more efficient composition vs. gateway.
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tempest is so boring to watch and boring overall, they should redo that unit T.T
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On October 29 2012 08:04 Killmouse wrote: tempest is so boring to watch and boring overall, they should redo that unit T.T Really? I think it's doing fine.
Just consider that it's not meant for early harass, like many people are using it for. Late game is where it really shines. Picking off BLs and Infestors here and there adds up and it can build suspense pretty quickly.
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On October 29 2012 07:46 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote: It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Really? Really? What about Mass Recall? That allows Toss to actually have some early game and mid-game presence without their entire army dying to a ling surround. Photon Overcharge allows Toss not to die if they don't do a Forge FE. And with Forge FE, Toss dies anyways if Zerg 6pools. Hell, Envision opens up Stargate tech for Toss. Is that limiting gameplay? I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea from. I mean, maybe somewhat, because every game would start with getting a Mothership Core, but is it really all that different from 1Rax FE or even Zerg's early game, aka cheese or FE? Plus, there's the choice of going Nexus first, or Gateway first, Gas first, or even Forge first.
Well don't get me wrong. the abilities are nice, but I just don't like the idea of a unique unit.
The MSC can only be in one place . You either defend one base and protect it from cloaked threats and be ready to cast photon overcharge OR you take it with your army to recall when necessary. but since you can build only one every enemy will focus on killing it instantly which is not that hard.
the photon overcharge is a nice ability - but why does it have to be on the MSC? does not make sense to me. Give it to the nexus for like 75 energy. Envision could be given to another unit like the sentry or to a stargate unit.
Recall is maybe the biggest change and is really the only thing that makes sense on the MSC but I still don't like it. I'd rather have protoss get a building that can recall units. OR heck give the skill to the nexus as well since it can teleport to the nexus only.
Or if it really has to stay, change the name and instead of making it unique give it higher gas costs. The unique unit concept really is not starcraft like and does not offer any advantages.
I'm pretty sure they did not include the mothership because of the innovative usefulness but because of the "AWWWW, a huge fucking mothership!" - effect.
But nobody is impressed anymore. Just let that shit go.
Some more concrete ideas:
-Nexus ability, photon overcharge, 75 energy, can be cast either on itself or any nexus
-new building Wormhole generator (costs 100 -100) requires cybercore and has recall ability for 125 energy(max 200)
-Merge envision again with reveal - any cloaked unit hit will be revealed for 60 seconds (or maybe 30 seconds since they were cloaked)
No stupid unique units!
edit: Energy cost fixed
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On October 29 2012 07:54 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:39 Freeborn wrote:On October 29 2012 07:35 sagefreke wrote: I think the Tempest as it is right now does a great job in PvZ against BL/Infestor.
My concern as a Zerg player is what do we go for in the late game now? Roaches late game become cost inefficient. Hydras lose to every gateway unit the Protoss has, and I'm not sold on Ultra's burrow charge changing anything in this matchup as long as Chargelots and Immortals are in the game as is. Is Swarm Host/hydra/Infestor/Corruptor supposed to be Zergs answer to Protoss players with Tempests/Collossi/Stalkers? I'm concerned that Hydras just won't be able to cut it in the DPS department. Hydras own EVERY gateway unit, the only thing that owns hydras is a collossus. Also do you have ANY IDEA how much free units a zerg has when he has broods, infestor and swarm hosts? Plus the ultralisk burrow charge is pretty amazing. Don't fear for the zerg they have even more new stuff than the protoss. And they are dominating right now anyways. I don't think Hydras own every gateway unit at all... Chargelots shred them. Blink Stalkers mitigate damage well enough that Hydras end up losing the engagement... There's a good reason why pros don't use Hydras in ZvP anymore. The speed upgrade is not going to change anything in terms of winning straight up engagements against gateway units when it's been concluded that Roach/ling is a much more efficient composition vs. gateway.
Just for you I will now go and play some zerg games with speed hydras! LEt's see how they do
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I just can't get behind this philosophy. If the tempest is incrementally fixed until vortex isn't as critical then again we are left with other units' roles diluted. This isn't a straightforward equation were you can isolate one part of the equation and solve for it but a one laden with interconnected variables that need experimenting with simultaneously.
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On October 29 2012 08:09 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:46 Antylamon wrote:On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote: It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Really? Really? What about Mass Recall? That allows Toss to actually have some early game and mid-game presence without their entire army dying to a ling surround. Photon Overcharge allows Toss not to die if they don't do a Forge FE. And with Forge FE, Toss dies anyways if Zerg 6pools. Hell, Envision opens up Stargate tech for Toss. Is that limiting gameplay? I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea from. I mean, maybe somewhat, because every game would start with getting a Mothership Core, but is it really all that different from 1Rax FE or even Zerg's early game, aka cheese or FE? Plus, there's the choice of going Nexus first, or Gateway first, Gas first, or even Forge first. Well don't get me wrong. the abilities are nice, but I just don't like the idea of a unique unit. Some people disagree.
The MSC can only be in one place . You either defend one base and protect it from cloaked threats and be ready to cast photon overcharge OR you take it with your army to recall when necessary. but since you can build only one every enemy will focus on killing it instantly which is not that hard. Well, the focus of Recall is to retreat home when pressuring early game or mid-game. Zerg can't shoot up early game, except with Queens, which are terribly slow off creep. Terran has Marines, but the Marines are a bit busy stutter-stepping away from Zealots. If Toss does reach a situation in which he is likely to lose his Mothership Core, then he Recalls before it can die. It's a matter of knowing when to Recall, which can be very very interesting from a spectator's perspective.
Imagine a Toss (let's say MC) is looking to do some aggression. He moves out, but then he gets surrounded, and the situation looks grim, but he doesn't Recall. With some amazing Zealot/Stalker micro, he pulls through and wins the game. Awesome, right?
the photon overcharge is a nice ability - but why does it have to be on the MSC? does not make sense to me. Give it to the nexus for like 125 energy. Envision could be given to another unit like the sentry or to a stargate unit. Envision could fit well on the Oracle, but Blizz put it on the Mothership Core because it was intended to help defend against cloak-based harass, allowing Toss to postpone the necessity of Observers. If it were on the Oracle, then it could just fly anywhere with detection whenever you want it.
On the Nexus, it only has 100 energy. I know, that can be changed, but I just find that error a bit amusing.
Photon Overcharge is an iffy subject for putting it on the Nexus. I tend to relate Mothership Core FEs to Forge FEs. The prerequisite is a Forge to build the Cannon. Instead, the prerequisite is a unit, which can die at any time. This makes defense against early aggression more exciting. If a Terran decides to do some Marine aggro,
Recall is maybe the biggest change and is really the only thing that makes sense on the MSC but I still don't like it. I'd rather have protoss get a building that can recall units. OR heck give the skill to the nexus as well since it can teleport to the nexus only. Well, that was tried before, and it was a bit boring when you knew you couldn't kill the Toss army no matter what happened. At least now you can try to kill the Mothership Core if Toss slips up, giving you some hope.
Or if it really has to stay, change the name and instead of making it unique give it higher gas costs. The unique unit concept really is not starcraft like and does not offer any advantages. That would pose a problem with Envision. Dayvie said that you are still supposed to require Obs as an adaptation if Terran goes for mass Cloak-shees or Toss goes for mass DTs. If you had, say, 2 Mothership Cores, then you could opt out of getting Obs ever. One Mothership Core for Envision, one for Recall and Photon Overcharge.
Although I admit this is the best idea you have to offer in your post.
I'm pretty sure they did not include the mothership because of the innovative usefulness but because of the "AWWWW, a huge fucking mothership!" - effect.
But nobody is impressed anymore. Just let that shit go. It's not solely a matter of impressing people because it's a big unit. It's an Arbiter, and it's useful.
Plus, Nukes get an effect of awe just like that. Does anyone complain about those?
Some more concrete ideas:
-Nexus ability, photon overcharge, 125 energy, can be cast either on itself or any nexus
-new building Wormhole generator (costs 100 -100) requires cybercore and has recall ability for 125 energy
-Merge envision again with reveal - any cloaked unit hit will be revealed for 60 seconds (or maybe 30 seconds since they were cloaked) Addressed the issues with Photon Overcharge and Wormhole Generators before.
As for the Envision thing, that would help against 1 DT, but not against 2. That's kind of stupid. However, I don't think I fully understand what you mean, so feel free to clarify.
No stupid unique units! ...Now this is just being judgmental.
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On October 29 2012 08:39 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 08:09 Freeborn wrote:On October 29 2012 07:46 Antylamon wrote:On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote: It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Really? Really? What about Mass Recall? That allows Toss to actually have some early game and mid-game presence without their entire army dying to a ling surround. Photon Overcharge allows Toss not to die if they don't do a Forge FE. And with Forge FE, Toss dies anyways if Zerg 6pools. Hell, Envision opens up Stargate tech for Toss. Is that limiting gameplay? I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea from. I mean, maybe somewhat, because every game would start with getting a Mothership Core, but is it really all that different from 1Rax FE or even Zerg's early game, aka cheese or FE? Plus, there's the choice of going Nexus first, or Gateway first, Gas first, or even Forge first. Well don't get me wrong. the abilities are nice, but I just don't like the idea of a unique unit. Some people disagree. Show nested quote +The MSC can only be in one place . You either defend one base and protect it from cloaked threats and be ready to cast photon overcharge OR you take it with your army to recall when necessary. but since you can build only one every enemy will focus on killing it instantly which is not that hard. Well, the focus of Recall is to retreat home when pressuring early game or mid-game. Zerg can't shoot up early game, except with Queens, which are terribly slow off creep. Terran has Marines, but the Marines are a bit busy stutter-stepping away from Zealots. If Toss does reach a situation in which he is likely to lose his Mothership Core, then he Recalls before it can die. It's a matter of knowing when to Recall, which can be very very interesting from a spectator's perspective. Imagine a Toss (let's say MC) is looking to do some aggression. He moves out, but then he gets surrounded, and the situation looks grim, but he doesn't Recall. With some amazing Zealot/Stalker micro, he pulls through and wins the game. Awesome, right? Show nested quote +the photon overcharge is a nice ability - but why does it have to be on the MSC? does not make sense to me. Give it to the nexus for like 125 energy. Envision could be given to another unit like the sentry or to a stargate unit. Envision could fit well on the Oracle, but Blizz put it on the Mothership Core because it was intended to help defend against cloak-based harass, allowing Toss to postpone the necessity of Observers. If it were on the Oracle, then it could just fly anywhere with detection whenever you want it. On the Nexus, it only has 100 energy. I know, that can be changed, but I just find that error a bit amusing. Photon Overcharge is an iffy subject for putting it on the Nexus. I tend to relate Mothership Core FEs to Forge FEs. The prerequisite is a Forge to build the Cannon. Instead, the prerequisite is a unit, which can die at any time. This makes defense against early aggression more exciting. If a Terran decides to do some Marine aggro, Show nested quote +Recall is maybe the biggest change and is really the only thing that makes sense on the MSC but I still don't like it. I'd rather have protoss get a building that can recall units. OR heck give the skill to the nexus as well since it can teleport to the nexus only. Well, that was tried before, and it was a bit boring when you knew you couldn't kill the Toss army no matter what happened. At least now you can try to kill the Mothership Core if Toss slips up, giving you some hope. Show nested quote +Or if it really has to stay, change the name and instead of making it unique give it higher gas costs. The unique unit concept really is not starcraft like and does not offer any advantages. That would pose a problem with Envision. Dayvie said that you are still supposed to require Obs as an adaptation if Terran goes for mass Cloak-shees or Toss goes for mass DTs. If you had, say, 2 Mothership Cores, then you could opt out of getting Obs ever. One Mothership Core for Envision, one for Recall and Photon Overcharge. Although I admit this is the best idea you have to offer in your post. Show nested quote +I'm pretty sure they did not include the mothership because of the innovative usefulness but because of the "AWWWW, a huge fucking mothership!" - effect.
But nobody is impressed anymore. Just let that shit go. It's not solely a matter of impressing people because it's a big unit. It's an Arbiter, and it's useful. Plus, Nukes get an effect of awe just like that. Does anyone complain about those? Show nested quote +Some more concrete ideas:
-Nexus ability, photon overcharge, 125 energy, can be cast either on itself or any nexus
-new building Wormhole generator (costs 100 -100) requires cybercore and has recall ability for 125 energy
-Merge envision again with reveal - any cloaked unit hit will be revealed for 60 seconds (or maybe 30 seconds since they were cloaked) Addressed the issues with Photon Overcharge and Wormhole Generators before. As for the Envision thing, that would help against 1 DT, but not against 2. That's kind of stupid. However, I don't think I fully understand what you mean, so feel free to clarify. ...Now this is just being judgmental.
Alright, let's face it I just don't like the idea of unique units in starcraft, if you like them that's your choice. I really don't see that the mothership did help anything to make this game more interesting, it's really not strong enough to be impressive. Yes it's an arbiter, just slower more expensive and you can only have one. Great. Very original and interesting.
The only good argument you make is about limiting detection. But the reveal mechanic is much more like the fungals reveal mechanic than an observers detection, that means you will have to hit each cloaked unit and you only have a limited number of uses due to energy cost (which can be tweaked).
But in the end, if you like the mothership than that's more a matter of taste. I personally really hate all those pvz ending with broods,infestor corrupter vs collosi, stalker, archon mothership hinging on those vortexes being cast. Recall is a nice mechanic but it does not seem to be working very well on the mothership or we would see it more often and blizzard would not have given it to the MSC as well.
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On October 29 2012 04:24 juicyjames wrote: Blizzard wants Tempests to fix colossi wars PvP and Broodlord/Infestor in ZvP. Do you think they are succeeding?
Do you think they succeeded with Void Rays?
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On October 29 2012 07:43 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote:On October 29 2012 04:48 murphs wrote: If they had any sense they would delete the mothership. This. So bad. And of course the mothership core with it. I'm in the beta and I hate the msc. It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Plus hero units have no place outside of the campaign. I disagree, the MsC allows for so much new stuff for protoss that makes me cry from joy, also, if there is one unit that can reduce the protoss need of sentries, it's the MsC.
but it shouldn't be a unit! Just make it attached to nexus! It's so silly that PvP which should see more expansions now because of the MsC is basically just a blinkstalker fest now because MsC + blink is a super buff to the class blink + obs build. You don't need a robo anymore so you hit faster and still have detection plus you can even escape with recall.
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I think Fungal will also get a major rework sometime in the beta considering how much trouble it is giving the other races in the late-game, and plus Zerg has some more options to compensate in the form of new units and reworks of older units. A rework of fungal could possibly shift the strengths of late-game Zerg away from the Infestor-Broodlord combo and possibly into other more interesting compositions.
If the developers succeed in creating more ways to deal with the Infestor-BL combo either by reworking Fungal or tweaking counters such as Tempests, then I think Vortex can be reworked to at least remove the Archon toilet aspect.
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I think that everything that encourages a dynamic game play is great. The current death march of the zerg is so far away from a dynamic battle. The vortex is either a success or miss.
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On October 29 2012 06:10 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: it would also add a dynamic to TvP where the more mobile Stargate play harasses/forces Mech to engage, but that would mean that Mech has to be much stronger (because right now it's fine defensively but its very hard to pressure/punish some things since u have to have perfect engagements)
also i don't understand, why can't they just buff Void rays to do more damage vs Massive units? And then Tempest can still force engagements with its long range and harass, but it would be weaker since it doesn't also counter Colossi/BL. Void rays already do bonus vs massive. They are still useless in both pvp and pvz.
"why can't they just buff Void rays to do more damage vs Massive units?"
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On October 29 2012 07:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On October 29 2012 05:41 Big J wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Prodigal wrote:On October 29 2012 05:19 Ljas wrote:On October 29 2012 05:17 Prodigal wrote: Fix the title please. Not rework. Removal. If you reread what Dayvie said, he wants to phase it out a bit. Removal isn't phasing it out just a bit, it's phasing it out entirely. Well vortex is a binary spell. Phasing out a spell like that would imply: -changing duration and cost -changing its effect (removing invulnerability, damage over time... Whatever creative idea you can think of) The former would a buff or nerf, the nerf being only 1 vortex per battle. The latter would change the spell entirely, most likely including a name change. In any case, the current iteration of vortex is removed. So a title that isint misleading would include removal, or nerf. They already played with that in the alpha. Vortex only hits ground. I believe that is what they will re-implement. Just like they removed all the BC changes (that were already confirmed at the end of the alpha), just like they removed all the Raven changes (that were very logical), they removed the Vortex change, so that people had to test the new units first. (if you watched the first week of the beta... TvZ was just mass Raven+BC; "New units? YAMATOOOOOOOOOOO") Question, what were the raven changes? Sounds very interesting, thanks in advance! Raven to 2.5 speed and HSM energy cost to 100. Migth be that stuff like this returns
Thanks for answering, couldn't find this info on liquipedia or anything!
Edit: Shit double post sorry ;;
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As a protoss myself, Tempests in theory are good in PvZ if there is only Broodlords and/or Infestors. The problem with this is the Zerg having Corruptors in the army. I've tried building Tempests late game and the Zerg just makes a handful of Corruptors and just crush the Tempests. You can't run away with the Tempests either cause they are just slower.
It is similar in PvP as well. I've been the one building them and go against them. When I see a Protoss build Tempests it is like a free win. I just build a whole bunch of Stalkers and kill them. It is also because they cost so much that the Protoss won't have much of a ground army to support them or your opponents army is just so much bigger that you can flat out ignore them.
I'm not sure what is the right answer for them at this point. It seems like the only situation they are viable in is super late game to snipe BL's. I would like to see them possibly have splash back or some way to effectively deal with Corruptors.
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On October 29 2012 10:36 Masada714 wrote: As a protoss myself, Tempests in theory are good in PvZ if there is only Broodlords and/or Infestors. The problem with this is the Zerg having Corruptors in the army. I've tried building Tempests late game and the Zerg just makes a handful of Corruptors and just crush the Tempests. You can't run away with the Tempests either cause they are just slower.
It is similar in PvP as well. I've been the one building them and go against them. When I see a Protoss build Tempests it is like a free win. I just build a whole bunch of Stalkers and kill them. It is also because they cost so much that the Protoss won't have much of a ground army to support them or your opponents army is just so much bigger that you can flat out ignore them.
I'm not sure what is the right answer for them at this point. It seems like the only situation they are viable in is super late game to snipe BL's. I would like to see them possibly have splash back or some way to effectively deal with Corruptors.
Agreed, but we should support anything that will help Protoss deal with Broodlord/infestor. I am not sure if it is worse the BC/viking battles, but it is close. We should also support any effort to end the War of World end game for PvP. It is such garbage to watch.
I support the plan of making the tempest a better, more viable unit. Right now the unit is useful and because it can shoot ground, it has a place in the late game. I would like to see it used on better maps with features that it could use to zone out BL and colossi armies. The unit has the ability to be solid, but need to be worth the investment.
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Protoss air is getting to a really cool place, design-wise. Some numbers might need tweaking, and the Void Ray's role isn't super clear, but the overall design direction of the Protoss fleet has a lot of very cool uses, and feels so much more powerful and flexible than Stargate in HotS
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On October 29 2012 10:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 10:36 Masada714 wrote: As a protoss myself, Tempests in theory are good in PvZ if there is only Broodlords and/or Infestors. The problem with this is the Zerg having Corruptors in the army. I've tried building Tempests late game and the Zerg just makes a handful of Corruptors and just crush the Tempests. You can't run away with the Tempests either cause they are just slower.
It is similar in PvP as well. I've been the one building them and go against them. When I see a Protoss build Tempests it is like a free win. I just build a whole bunch of Stalkers and kill them. It is also because they cost so much that the Protoss won't have much of a ground army to support them or your opponents army is just so much bigger that you can flat out ignore them.
I'm not sure what is the right answer for them at this point. It seems like the only situation they are viable in is super late game to snipe BL's. I would like to see them possibly have splash back or some way to effectively deal with Corruptors. Agreed, but we should support anything that will help Protoss deal with Broodlord/infestor. I am not sure if it is worse the BC/viking battles, but it is close. We should also support any effort to end the War of World end game for PvP. It is such garbage to watch. I support the plan of making the tempest a better, more viable unit. Right now the unit is useful and because it can shoot ground, it has a place in the late game. I would like to see it used on better maps with features that it could use to zone out BL and colossi armies. The unit has the ability to be solid, but need to be worth the investment.
I definitely agree with you as well. I think it might even be more important to make Tempest viable in PvP so there isn't always War of the Worlds. Imo, air is not even a good option at all right now. When the Dev team starts making changes to WoL units, it will hopefully open up options in PvZ specifically to make Air work and lessen the strength of the Zerg deathball.
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On October 29 2012 10:36 Masada714 wrote: As a protoss myself, Tempests in theory are good in PvZ if there is only Broodlords and/or Infestors. The problem with this is the Zerg having Corruptors in the army. I've tried building Tempests late game and the Zerg just makes a handful of Corruptors and just crush the Tempests. You can't run away with the Tempests either cause they are just slower.
It is similar in PvP as well. I've been the one building them and go against them. When I see a Protoss build Tempests it is like a free win. I just build a whole bunch of Stalkers and kill them. It is also because they cost so much that the Protoss won't have much of a ground army to support them or your opponents army is just so much bigger that you can flat out ignore them.
I'm not sure what is the right answer for them at this point. It seems like the only situation they are viable in is super late game to snipe BL's. I would like to see them possibly have splash back or some way to effectively deal with Corruptors.
What's the range on the Tempest right now? Sure you can't outrun corruptors, but the Tempest should be able to fire on the broodlords from within their supporting army right? Corruptors can come and snipe them, but similarly the corruptors will die to stalker fire.
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On October 29 2012 12:44 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 10:36 Masada714 wrote: As a protoss myself, Tempests in theory are good in PvZ if there is only Broodlords and/or Infestors. The problem with this is the Zerg having Corruptors in the army. I've tried building Tempests late game and the Zerg just makes a handful of Corruptors and just crush the Tempests. You can't run away with the Tempests either cause they are just slower.
It is similar in PvP as well. I've been the one building them and go against them. When I see a Protoss build Tempests it is like a free win. I just build a whole bunch of Stalkers and kill them. It is also because they cost so much that the Protoss won't have much of a ground army to support them or your opponents army is just so much bigger that you can flat out ignore them.
I'm not sure what is the right answer for them at this point. It seems like the only situation they are viable in is super late game to snipe BL's. I would like to see them possibly have splash back or some way to effectively deal with Corruptors. What's the range on the Tempest right now? Sure you can't outrun corruptors, but the Tempest should be able to fire on the broodlords from within their supporting army right? Corruptors can come and snipe them, but similarly the corruptors will die to stalker fire.
The range is 15, however maximizing that range can be an issue as well. Since any decent Zerg will have an Overseer with that army so you can't just have an obs on them to get vision. The only way I see getting good vision is with the Oracle and the Revelation spell. It is a tough situation but by no means unwinnable for Protoss. I would just like to see the Tempest do a little better against the Corruptor since no air does well against them in realistic situations.
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Removing the mothership would be ideal, but 90% of the issues with it revolve around Vortex so, this sounds great :D
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On October 29 2012 08:54 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 08:39 Antylamon wrote:On October 29 2012 08:09 Freeborn wrote:On October 29 2012 07:46 Antylamon wrote:On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote: It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Really? Really? What about Mass Recall? That allows Toss to actually have some early game and mid-game presence without their entire army dying to a ling surround. Photon Overcharge allows Toss not to die if they don't do a Forge FE. And with Forge FE, Toss dies anyways if Zerg 6pools. Hell, Envision opens up Stargate tech for Toss. Is that limiting gameplay? I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea from. I mean, maybe somewhat, because every game would start with getting a Mothership Core, but is it really all that different from 1Rax FE or even Zerg's early game, aka cheese or FE? Plus, there's the choice of going Nexus first, or Gateway first, Gas first, or even Forge first. Well don't get me wrong. the abilities are nice, but I just don't like the idea of a unique unit. Some people disagree. The MSC can only be in one place . You either defend one base and protect it from cloaked threats and be ready to cast photon overcharge OR you take it with your army to recall when necessary. but since you can build only one every enemy will focus on killing it instantly which is not that hard. Well, the focus of Recall is to retreat home when pressuring early game or mid-game. Zerg can't shoot up early game, except with Queens, which are terribly slow off creep. Terran has Marines, but the Marines are a bit busy stutter-stepping away from Zealots. If Toss does reach a situation in which he is likely to lose his Mothership Core, then he Recalls before it can die. It's a matter of knowing when to Recall, which can be very very interesting from a spectator's perspective. Imagine a Toss (let's say MC) is looking to do some aggression. He moves out, but then he gets surrounded, and the situation looks grim, but he doesn't Recall. With some amazing Zealot/Stalker micro, he pulls through and wins the game. Awesome, right? the photon overcharge is a nice ability - but why does it have to be on the MSC? does not make sense to me. Give it to the nexus for like 125 energy. Envision could be given to another unit like the sentry or to a stargate unit. Envision could fit well on the Oracle, but Blizz put it on the Mothership Core because it was intended to help defend against cloak-based harass, allowing Toss to postpone the necessity of Observers. If it were on the Oracle, then it could just fly anywhere with detection whenever you want it. On the Nexus, it only has 100 energy. I know, that can be changed, but I just find that error a bit amusing. Photon Overcharge is an iffy subject for putting it on the Nexus. I tend to relate Mothership Core FEs to Forge FEs. The prerequisite is a Forge to build the Cannon. Instead, the prerequisite is a unit, which can die at any time. This makes defense against early aggression more exciting. If a Terran decides to do some Marine aggro, Recall is maybe the biggest change and is really the only thing that makes sense on the MSC but I still don't like it. I'd rather have protoss get a building that can recall units. OR heck give the skill to the nexus as well since it can teleport to the nexus only. Well, that was tried before, and it was a bit boring when you knew you couldn't kill the Toss army no matter what happened. At least now you can try to kill the Mothership Core if Toss slips up, giving you some hope. Or if it really has to stay, change the name and instead of making it unique give it higher gas costs. The unique unit concept really is not starcraft like and does not offer any advantages. That would pose a problem with Envision. Dayvie said that you are still supposed to require Obs as an adaptation if Terran goes for mass Cloak-shees or Toss goes for mass DTs. If you had, say, 2 Mothership Cores, then you could opt out of getting Obs ever. One Mothership Core for Envision, one for Recall and Photon Overcharge. Although I admit this is the best idea you have to offer in your post. I'm pretty sure they did not include the mothership because of the innovative usefulness but because of the "AWWWW, a huge fucking mothership!" - effect.
But nobody is impressed anymore. Just let that shit go. It's not solely a matter of impressing people because it's a big unit. It's an Arbiter, and it's useful. Plus, Nukes get an effect of awe just like that. Does anyone complain about those? Some more concrete ideas:
-Nexus ability, photon overcharge, 125 energy, can be cast either on itself or any nexus
-new building Wormhole generator (costs 100 -100) requires cybercore and has recall ability for 125 energy
-Merge envision again with reveal - any cloaked unit hit will be revealed for 60 seconds (or maybe 30 seconds since they were cloaked) Addressed the issues with Photon Overcharge and Wormhole Generators before. As for the Envision thing, that would help against 1 DT, but not against 2. That's kind of stupid. However, I don't think I fully understand what you mean, so feel free to clarify. No stupid unique units! ...Now this is just being judgmental. I personally really hate all those pvz ending with broods,infestor corrupter vs collosi, stalker, archon mothership hinging on those vortexes being cast. I do too, but Vortex is being reworked, and Tempests are shifting towards being the answer.
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On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF...
I imagine they'll nerf the unpopular spells a bit, to make them more situational (and to better reward efficiency?). Make FF cost 75 energy, for instance, and make Vortex only work on air (so no archons in there), and smaller stuff like that.
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The problem with the Tempest in PvP is the same problem the Phoenix has in PvZ. Sure the Phoenix is great against Mutalisks, but it has limited roles beyond that. And that is why you see pro players simply not using the Phoenix vs Mutalisks, they use Blink Stalkers, Archons and High Templar, because those three units are useful in many roles beyond killing Mutalisks.
If the Tempest is one dimensional like the Phoenix, then it just won't work. What will happen is both players will build Colossus, realize the other is building Colossus and build Tempests, then realize the other is building Tempests and build more Tempests since they counter themselves (mass Voids could be an option, but Archons and Stalkers are great vs Void Rays). Then someone will realize that if someone invests in Tempests, just make more Colossus and kill off their ground support, then do a mass Warp in of Blink Stalkers and laugh at the Tempests left over. This is exactly what people do in PvZ. Force your opponent to overmake Corrupters, then roll over them with Blink Stalkers.
A good Zerg limits his Corrupters and uses Infestors well, but Corrupters can change into Broodlords and end up in a ground attack role. The Tempest however, like the Phoenix, has no role to transition to.
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On October 29 2012 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote: The problem with the Tempest in PvP is the same problem the Phoenix has in PvZ. Sure the Phoenix is great against Mutalisks, but it has limited roles beyond that. And that is why you see pro players simply not using the Phoenix vs Mutalisks, they use Blink Stalkers, Archons and High Templar, because they are useful in many roles beyond killing Mutalisks.
If the Tempest is one dimensional like the Phoenix, then it just won't work. What will happen is both players will build Colossus, realize the other is building Colossus and build Tempests, then realize the other is building Tempests and build more Tempests since they counter themselves (mass Voids could be an option, but Archons and Stalkers are great vs Void Rays). Then someone will realize that if someone invests in Tempests, just make more Colossus and kill off their ground support, then do a mass Warp in of Blink Stalkers and laugh at the Tempests left over. This is exactly what people do in PvZ. Force your opponent to overmake Corrupters, then roll over them with Blink Stalkers.
A good Zerg limits his Corrupters and use Infestors well, but Corrupters can change into Broodlords and end up in a ground attack role. The Tempest however, like the Phoenix, has no role to transition to.
tempest hits ground, phoenix doesn't... to me this makes them worlds apart
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On October 29 2012 14:15 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote: The problem with the Tempest in PvP is the same problem the Phoenix has in PvZ. Sure the Phoenix is great against Mutalisks, but it has limited roles beyond that. And that is why you see pro players simply not using the Phoenix vs Mutalisks, they use Blink Stalkers, Archons and High Templar, because they are useful in many roles beyond killing Mutalisks.
If the Tempest is one dimensional like the Phoenix, then it just won't work. What will happen is both players will build Colossus, realize the other is building Colossus and build Tempests, then realize the other is building Tempests and build more Tempests since they counter themselves (mass Voids could be an option, but Archons and Stalkers are great vs Void Rays). Then someone will realize that if someone invests in Tempests, just make more Colossus and kill off their ground support, then do a mass Warp in of Blink Stalkers and laugh at the Tempests left over. This is exactly what people do in PvZ. Force your opponent to overmake Corrupters, then roll over them with Blink Stalkers.
A good Zerg limits his Corrupters and use Infestors well, but Corrupters can change into Broodlords and end up in a ground attack role. The Tempest however, like the Phoenix, has no role to transition to. tempest hits ground, phoenix doesn't... to me this makes them worlds apart
Tempests do 9 DPS to non-massive ground units and cost 300/200. Two Marines (no upgrades, no stim) do 14 DPS to all units and cost 100/0. One Stalker does 9.7 DPS to armored units and costs 125/50.
I don't really know what else to say. I mean a Void Ray does 10 DPS to a Zergling uncharged and costs 250/150, and how bad are Void Rays vs Zerglings? Believe it or not, not as bad as Tempests...
Tempests are terrible vs non-massive ground units.
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On October 29 2012 14:15 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote: The problem with the Tempest in PvP is the same problem the Phoenix has in PvZ. Sure the Phoenix is great against Mutalisks, but it has limited roles beyond that. And that is why you see pro players simply not using the Phoenix vs Mutalisks, they use Blink Stalkers, Archons and High Templar, because they are useful in many roles beyond killing Mutalisks.
If the Tempest is one dimensional like the Phoenix, then it just won't work. What will happen is both players will build Colossus, realize the other is building Colossus and build Tempests, then realize the other is building Tempests and build more Tempests since they counter themselves (mass Voids could be an option, but Archons and Stalkers are great vs Void Rays). Then someone will realize that if someone invests in Tempests, just make more Colossus and kill off their ground support, then do a mass Warp in of Blink Stalkers and laugh at the Tempests left over. This is exactly what people do in PvZ. Force your opponent to overmake Corrupters, then roll over them with Blink Stalkers.
A good Zerg limits his Corrupters and use Infestors well, but Corrupters can change into Broodlords and end up in a ground attack role. The Tempest however, like the Phoenix, has no role to transition to. tempest hits ground, phoenix doesn't... to me this makes them worlds apart He is not comparing the units, he is comparing the utility of the units. Both these units become almost useless and actually detriment your army once their hard counter victim is gone. The same can (and is) said of Vikings in TvP. Once the colossus are gone the entire supply of Vikings is a detriment to the rest of your composition because they become useless. It is a problem with their design. This is why soft counters are generally the better choice (eg using Blink Stalkers/High Templar/Archons vs Mutalisk) because they still retain usefulness once the threat is dealt with.
Choosing a soft counter over a hard counter is not always so easy tho, as in the case of Vikings. Because if you don't use Vikings what else can you use? For the Vikings vs Colossus case solutions could include either altering another units role to alllow it to be an additional option to use against Colossus, Design a new unit which could help against Colossus or to Modify the Viking itself to give it utility once the colossus is gone (Eg make its ground form more useful).
The Tempest has been slowly tuned in role to become a hard counter to massive units, but in more recent patches they have begun trying to broaden its uses more (eg more base damage, less +massive damage so it does the same vs massive but a bit more than it did vs non massive) to elevate some of the issues hard counter units have and to open up more uses to the unit. This is exactly what needs to be done. Not only to this unit, but to many of the hard counter units in the game which fall too deeply into niche uses.
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On October 29 2012 14:39 DeCoup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 14:15 mishimaBeef wrote:On October 29 2012 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote: The problem with the Tempest in PvP is the same problem the Phoenix has in PvZ. Sure the Phoenix is great against Mutalisks, but it has limited roles beyond that. And that is why you see pro players simply not using the Phoenix vs Mutalisks, they use Blink Stalkers, Archons and High Templar, because they are useful in many roles beyond killing Mutalisks.
If the Tempest is one dimensional like the Phoenix, then it just won't work. What will happen is both players will build Colossus, realize the other is building Colossus and build Tempests, then realize the other is building Tempests and build more Tempests since they counter themselves (mass Voids could be an option, but Archons and Stalkers are great vs Void Rays). Then someone will realize that if someone invests in Tempests, just make more Colossus and kill off their ground support, then do a mass Warp in of Blink Stalkers and laugh at the Tempests left over. This is exactly what people do in PvZ. Force your opponent to overmake Corrupters, then roll over them with Blink Stalkers.
A good Zerg limits his Corrupters and use Infestors well, but Corrupters can change into Broodlords and end up in a ground attack role. The Tempest however, like the Phoenix, has no role to transition to. tempest hits ground, phoenix doesn't... to me this makes them worlds apart He is not comparing the units, he is comparing the utility of the units. Both these units become almost useless and actually detriment your army once their hard counter victim is gone. The same can (and is) said of Vikings in TvP. Once the colossus are gone the entire supply of Vikings is a detriment to the rest of your composition because they become useless. It is a problem with their design. This is why soft counters are generally the better choice (eg using Blink Stalkers/High Templar/Archons vs Mutalisk) because they still retain usefulness once the threat is dealt with. Choosing a soft counter over a hard counter is not always so easy tho, as in the case of Vikings. Because if you don't use Vikings what else can you use? For the Vikings vs Colossus case solutions could include either altering another units role to alllow it to be an additional option to use against Colossus, Design a new unit which could help against Colossus or to Modify the Viking itself to give it utility once the colossus is gone (Eg make its ground form more useful). The Tempest has been slowly tuned in role to become a hard counter to massive units, but in more recent patches they have begun trying to broaden its uses more (eg more base damage, less +massive damage so it does the same vs massive but a bit more than it did vs non massive) to elevate some of the issues hard counter units have and to open up more uses to the unit. This is exactly what needs to be done. Not only to this unit, but to many of the hard counter units in the game which fall too deeply into niche uses.
I wish I could have stated it so eloquently. And it is what I try to do here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378373 regarding units like the Immortal and Tempest. I feel like I need to rewrite sections and plagiarize what you wrote... I won't do it though.
However, the Viking is better vs ground units than Tempest is. A single Viking at less than half the cost of a Tempest does 12 DPS to ground units.
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On October 29 2012 06:01 YyapSsap wrote: What happens if it becomes tempest wars now? lol Won't happen, since stalkers are really good vs only tempests. Before it was: who ever has most colossi wins. But now it should be: Tempest > Colossus Colossus > Only gateway units Only gateway units > Tempests
This is the dynamic that tempests will probably pull off, and that is great. We don't want stale match-ups. At first I was unsure of the tempest, but it is starting to find its role. GJ to blizzard!
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Tempests needs more micro potential. It's turning out to be a Protoss Broodlord.
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On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 04:48 murphs wrote: If they had any sense they would delete the mothership. This. So bad. And of course the mothership core with it. I'm in the beta and I hate the msc. It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Plus hero units have no place outside of the campaign. Msc is really nice actually, especially in p mirror, cuts down on the 2 proxy gate cheese even if u seen it coming a bit late.
And it gives protoss the chance to roam the map a bit more freely.
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I don't really want to see Vortex go away, the initial idea behind it is still good imo, the problem for me here is the archon toilet, not the vortex itself. If you do such as units that cames out of a vortex cannot be attacked right away, and that infestor cannot neural a mothership, you'll give to the mothership its initial role, which allow to cut army in two and gives you positional advantages.
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On October 29 2012 19:59 Vanadiel wrote: I don't really want to see Vortex go away, the initial idea behind it is still good imo, the problem for me here is the archon toilet, not the vortex itself. If you do such as units that cames out of a vortex cannot be attacked right away, and that infestor cannot neural a mothership, you'll give to the mothership its initial role, which allow to cut army in two and gives you positional advantages.
Yes and no. Generally I agree, but I think that it's generally bad, because the units come out clumped heavily and no matter what you Vortex, as long as you close in with splash it's a deadly move - not just an "I win" like with the Archon toilet vs slow declumping Air-Units, but it's still extremly deadly.
Imo they should keep the Vortex, but make it impossible that your own units enter it or maybe generally that other units than the ones that were caught initially enter it. Having two enemy armies coming out in one big clump makes it quite bad, because it just destroys every form of micro or positioning.
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On October 29 2012 20:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 19:59 Vanadiel wrote: I don't really want to see Vortex go away, the initial idea behind it is still good imo, the problem for me here is the archon toilet, not the vortex itself. If you do such as units that cames out of a vortex cannot be attacked right away, and that infestor cannot neural a mothership, you'll give to the mothership its initial role, which allow to cut army in two and gives you positional advantages. Yes and no. Generally I agree, but I think that it's generally bad, because the units come out clumped heavily and no matter what you Vortex, as long as you close in with splash it's a deadly move - not just an "I win" like with the Archon toilet vs slow declumping Air-Units, but it's still extremly deadly. Imo they should keep the Vortex, but make it impossible that your own units enter it or maybe generally that other units than the ones that were caught initially enter it. Having two enemy armies coming out in one big clump makes it quite bad, because it just destroys every form of micro or positioning.
just giving the MS stasis field instead of vortex would do that.
still dont like the micropreventing spells and vortex is a really hard one. best thing would be to remove it completely and give MS another spell...or just remove the stupid hero unit completely.
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On October 29 2012 10:56 awesomoecalypse wrote: Protoss air is getting to a really cool place, design-wise. Some numbers might need tweaking, and the Void Ray's role isn't super clear, but the overall design direction of the Protoss fleet has a lot of very cool uses, and feels so much more powerful and flexible than Stargate in HotS
Funny thing is, right now the only real use for void rays i can think of is to take out tempests in PvP :p
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On October 29 2012 20:10 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 20:06 Big J wrote:On October 29 2012 19:59 Vanadiel wrote: I don't really want to see Vortex go away, the initial idea behind it is still good imo, the problem for me here is the archon toilet, not the vortex itself. If you do such as units that cames out of a vortex cannot be attacked right away, and that infestor cannot neural a mothership, you'll give to the mothership its initial role, which allow to cut army in two and gives you positional advantages. Yes and no. Generally I agree, but I think that it's generally bad, because the units come out clumped heavily and no matter what you Vortex, as long as you close in with splash it's a deadly move - not just an "I win" like with the Archon toilet vs slow declumping Air-Units, but it's still extremly deadly. Imo they should keep the Vortex, but make it impossible that your own units enter it or maybe generally that other units than the ones that were caught initially enter it. Having two enemy armies coming out in one big clump makes it quite bad, because it just destroys every form of micro or positioning. just giving the MS stasis field instead of vortex would do that. still dont like the micropreventing spells and vortex is a really hard one. best thing would be to remove it completely and give MS another spell...or just remove the stupid hero unit completely.
I think the Mothership is a great opportunity. I mean there are abilities that are probably too hard to balance in a good way (for example recall - didn't make it in WoL on the Arbiter, didn't make it in HotS on the Nexus) but are really exciting. Having a unit that is limited to 1, makes it so that such spells can be implemented. Vortex is not such an ability. It looks like one, but the splash+vortex combo turns it from a strong positional spell into a wincondition. But: Recall is probably such an ability (the alternative would be to severly limit the amount of units that can be recalled - which is basically a different spell) Mass cloak is maybe such an ability Macroboosting spells are probably such abilities Spells like energize that would break the game if two MSCs could energize each other are possible Making such a unit a little stronger per cost and per timing than it should be is possible, because they cannot be massed
Hero units grant many interesting possibilities. The problem is simply that the Mothership is not in the right spot, because Vortex is the thing that blizzard did not want to give the mothership
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On October 29 2012 14:41 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 14:39 DeCoup wrote:On October 29 2012 14:15 mishimaBeef wrote:On October 29 2012 14:00 BronzeKnee wrote: The problem with the Tempest in PvP is the same problem the Phoenix has in PvZ. Sure the Phoenix is great against Mutalisks, but it has limited roles beyond that. And that is why you see pro players simply not using the Phoenix vs Mutalisks, they use Blink Stalkers, Archons and High Templar, because they are useful in many roles beyond killing Mutalisks.
If the Tempest is one dimensional like the Phoenix, then it just won't work. What will happen is both players will build Colossus, realize the other is building Colossus and build Tempests, then realize the other is building Tempests and build more Tempests since they counter themselves (mass Voids could be an option, but Archons and Stalkers are great vs Void Rays). Then someone will realize that if someone invests in Tempests, just make more Colossus and kill off their ground support, then do a mass Warp in of Blink Stalkers and laugh at the Tempests left over. This is exactly what people do in PvZ. Force your opponent to overmake Corrupters, then roll over them with Blink Stalkers.
A good Zerg limits his Corrupters and use Infestors well, but Corrupters can change into Broodlords and end up in a ground attack role. The Tempest however, like the Phoenix, has no role to transition to. tempest hits ground, phoenix doesn't... to me this makes them worlds apart He is not comparing the units, he is comparing the utility of the units. Both these units become almost useless and actually detriment your army once their hard counter victim is gone. The same can (and is) said of Vikings in TvP. Once the colossus are gone the entire supply of Vikings is a detriment to the rest of your composition because they become useless. It is a problem with their design. This is why soft counters are generally the better choice (eg using Blink Stalkers/High Templar/Archons vs Mutalisk) because they still retain usefulness once the threat is dealt with. Choosing a soft counter over a hard counter is not always so easy tho, as in the case of Vikings. Because if you don't use Vikings what else can you use? For the Vikings vs Colossus case solutions could include either altering another units role to alllow it to be an additional option to use against Colossus, Design a new unit which could help against Colossus or to Modify the Viking itself to give it utility once the colossus is gone (Eg make its ground form more useful). The Tempest has been slowly tuned in role to become a hard counter to massive units, but in more recent patches they have begun trying to broaden its uses more (eg more base damage, less +massive damage so it does the same vs massive but a bit more than it did vs non massive) to elevate some of the issues hard counter units have and to open up more uses to the unit. This is exactly what needs to be done. Not only to this unit, but to many of the hard counter units in the game which fall too deeply into niche uses. I wish I could have stated it so eloquently. And it is what I try to do here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378373 regarding units like the Immortal and Tempest. I feel like I need to rewrite sections and plagiarize what you wrote... I won't do it though. However, the Viking is better vs ground units than Tempest is. A single Viking at less than half the cost of a Tempest does 12 DPS to ground units. Copy away
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On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF...
Yeah well, as hard as you pray, not gonna happen.
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On October 29 2012 22:07 iNbluE wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... Yeah well, as hard as you pray, not gonna happen. People said the same thing about Vortex. ^.^
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On October 29 2012 06:10 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: it would also add a dynamic to TvP where the more mobile Stargate play harasses/forces Mech to engage, but that would mean that Mech has to be much stronger (because right now it's fine defensively but its very hard to pressure/punish some things since u have to have perfect engagements)
also i don't understand, why can't they just buff Void rays to do more damage vs Massive units? And then Tempest can still force engagements with its long range and harass, but it would be weaker since it doesn't also counter Colossi/BL. Void rays already do bonus vs massive. They are still useless in both pvp and pvz. I can see people harassing with void rays and oracle. Time Warp would do well combined with void rays.
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So far I have better luck with Tempest vs Terran than I do vs zerg.... No one will upgrade MsC to MS if they get rid of vortex. Fungal is the biggest reason that Toss has a hard time vs late game zerg, not broodlords in and of themselves. Unless fungal gets changed, Protoss needs vortex to stand a chance. Lets be honest the game hinges on whether or not the Protoss gets off a good vortex. Its imbalanced either way you look at it.
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United Kingdom12011 Posts
On October 30 2012 00:19 StreetWise wrote: So far I have better luck with Tempest vs Terran than I do vs zerg.... No one will upgrade MsC to MS if they get rid of vortex. Fungal is the biggest reason that Toss has a hard time vs late game zerg, not broodlords in and of themselves. Unless fungal gets changed, Protoss needs vortex to stand a chance. Lets be honest the game hinges on whether or not the Protoss gets off a good vortex. Its imbalanced either way you look at it.
Actually, I think the main issue isn't fungal, it's infested terrans.
It's free damage on top of the already powerful broodlings and it means toss gets slowed down too much killing the infested terrans meaning it's harder to even go to blink onto the broodlords (it's like a massive wall of stimmed marines for free in the way of you and killing anything). They basically stop you from being able to engage properly and although fungal is good (needs changing, to a slow maybe?), it's the infested terrans that really keep the broodlords alive.
Against Terran it's fungal though, since marines can't run past or jump past the fungals.
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On October 30 2012 01:25 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2012 00:19 StreetWise wrote: So far I have better luck with Tempest vs Terran than I do vs zerg.... No one will upgrade MsC to MS if they get rid of vortex. Fungal is the biggest reason that Toss has a hard time vs late game zerg, not broodlords in and of themselves. Unless fungal gets changed, Protoss needs vortex to stand a chance. Lets be honest the game hinges on whether or not the Protoss gets off a good vortex. Its imbalanced either way you look at it. Actually, I think the main issue isn't fungal, it's infested terrans. It's free damage on top of the already powerful broodlings and it means toss gets slowed down too much killing the infested terrans meaning it's harder to even go to blink onto the broodlords (it's like a massive wall of stimmed marines for free in the way of you and killing anything). They basically stop you from being able to engage properly and although fungal is good (needs changing, to a slow maybe?), it's the infested terrans that really keep the broodlords alive. Against Terran it's fungal though, since marines can't run past or jump past the fungals.
yes, I definatly agree that ITs are a huge problem. As I put it: BL+Infestor makes a Protoss commit heavily to antiair. Then a 200/200 stimmed marine army apears out of the Infestors body and kills everything.
Protoss can deal with Broodlord/Corruptor even without the mothership (Void Rays, Phoenix, Stalkers). Protoss can deal with stimmed Marines even without the mothership. (Colossus, HT, Archons) Protoss cannot do both at once.
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I think think they are going to slowly realize that vortex is a bad spell and having hero units is an unecessary limiting factor that can be just as well realized with super high supply and gas costs, while still giving the option to build 2-3 of those units if your strategy revolves around them.
Nobody ever used the mothership before protoss started losing to the zerg endgame combo. Only then they turned to their last hopes - Carriers and voids didn't work due to fungal and infested terrans and the mothership provided a final option in the form of vortex.
If vortex is removed or even if any other counter to brood/infestor/corruptor exists I am absolutely sure the mothership will be disused again.
Please David Kim, just let it die honorably, don't give it the slow painful death of negligence and disregard that the carrier is suffering since WoL!
And the voidray definitely needs a role change - maybe gibe it an ability, make it more of a capital ship or make it the new protoss antiair - since protoss is still lacking a good all purpose anti air unit ( currently that's the stalker ).
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Well...I'm hoping it will fix the broodlord corruptor infestor mix and mass Colossi...those are the most typical and feel so easy to just 1A...I like their ideas with the tempest and I'll definitely be trying it out, but for the most part, it might just do the same thing vortex would (starting a full on engagement).
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The issue with the Mothership, and also with the MsC, is that balancing with respect to "you can only have one" does not work. The unit needs to be balanced based on its cost and effect, and if it is balanced as such then you can get multiple of them and it remains fair. Limiting the player to only building one "so they can put stronger abilities on it" is stupid. What you're saying is that you can put an imbalanced ability into the game, just as long as the imbalance is limited in scope.
This is rather like saying "oh, you can have a Marauder that has 500 HP and deals 50 damage, but you can only have one." It's an imbalanced unit. But it won't have a tremendous effect on the game due to the limit. If you could build as many of that unit as you like, it becomes obviously imbalanced. And if a limit 1 unit is very expensive, and not strong enough to justify its cost, then it will never be built- much like a unit of which you may make many copies.
The fundamental idea of a unique unit is broken. It needs to be retired. Smaller units create more choices regarding how many you make, when you use their abilities, and have a higher skill requirement for using those abilities. If you are limited to having only one Mothership, then obviously it all comes down to one cast of one Vortex. It doesn't even have to be Vortex- ANY ability you put on that unique unit is going to be dispositive to the game, with very little choice ("to get or not to get") and with very little skill required (only controlling one unit, as opposed to many). The Mothership is fundamentally broken as a concept.
The Arbiter is an obviously superior unit to the Mothership in every imaginable way. You can have multiple of them, meaning you choose how many to build. They have separate abilities and energy counts, meaning more casts of smaller abilities, potentially in multiple locations. If you lose one, it's not such a big deal. If one gets neuraled, it's not such a big deal. Multiple Arbiters uses a great deal of skill to use well. One Mothership clicking a Vortex does not.
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Can it be that they only care of PvZ and forget about terran? I mean were they any changes, how Terran deals vs Zerg Hive with constant tech switch, or breaking a defens protoss, cause the hellbats and widowmines help in no case. So how about nerf Colossi and Infestors.
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On October 31 2012 06:39 WeRRa wrote: Can it be that they only care of PvZ and forget about terran? I mean were they any changes, how Terran deals vs Zerg Hive with constant tech switch, or breaking a defens protoss, cause the hellbats and widowmines help in no case. So how about nerf Colossi and Infestors. Changes to WoL units are coming, you just gotta wait a little longer.
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if they want to fix "colossi wars" then remove colossi or rework then to where they actually require micro instead of A-moving them which any one can do... srsly a horrible unit that shouldnt have made it past alpha.
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On October 31 2012 11:17 Ballistixz wrote: if they want to fix "colossi wars" then remove colossi or rework then to where they actually require micro instead of A-moving them which any one can do... srsly a horrible unit that shouldnt have made it past alpha. A rework is more realistic. Protoss needs a splash-damage unit from the Robo, so they'd need another unit lined up to replace it, complete with new design and art. And no, Reavers aren't the answer no matter how beloved they are.
Simply changing the attack could do so much to make the Colossus more interesting.
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On October 29 2012 08:58 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:43 rpgalon wrote:On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote:On October 29 2012 04:48 murphs wrote: If they had any sense they would delete the mothership. This. So bad. And of course the mothership core with it. I'm in the beta and I hate the msc. It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Plus hero units have no place outside of the campaign. I disagree, the MsC allows for so much new stuff for protoss that makes me cry from joy, also, if there is one unit that can reduce the protoss need of sentries, it's the MsC. but it shouldn't be a unit! Just make it attached to nexus! It's so silly that PvP which should see more expansions now because of the MsC is basically just a blinkstalker fest now because MsC + blink is a super buff to the class blink + obs build. You don't need a robo anymore so you hit faster and still have detection plus you can even escape with recall.
The MsC fixes so many things in PvX, I think it should stay exactly as it is. PvP will just have to slowly evolve to find ways to deal with blink stalkers. It may take a year, but it'll be worth it in the long run.
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On October 29 2012 09:23 archonOOid wrote: I think that everything that encourages a dynamic game play is great. The current death march of the zerg is so far away from a dynamic battle. The vortex is either a success or miss.
The thing that makes Vortex boring and annoying for both sides is that the mothership is so slow moving. If it was fast moving, it'd be scary and all Zergs would go out of their way to split vs. it because it'd always be worth it to split. Instead, the mothership is just barely mobile enough to get a clutch Vortex off sometimes. Just enough for most Zergs to not bother splitting because it's time consuming and there is fear you'll lose the broodlords on the edges to stalkers, which leads to annoying losses.
And from the Protoss side, the mothership moves just slow enough to make one want to put hot pokers in his eyes. You have to be within a few millimeters of where you want to cast it Before you want to cast vortex, otherwise you have to wait too long for the acceleration/deceleration cycle. It's just not putting the RT in RTS.
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On October 29 2012 10:36 Masada714 wrote: As a protoss myself, Tempests in theory are good in PvZ if there is only Broodlords and/or Infestors. The problem with this is the Zerg having Corruptors in the army. I've tried building Tempests late game and the Zerg just makes a handful of Corruptors and just crush the Tempests. You can't run away with the Tempests either cause they are just slower.
It is similar in PvP as well. I've been the one building them and go against them. When I see a Protoss build Tempests it is like a free win. I just build a whole bunch of Stalkers and kill them. It is also because they cost so much that the Protoss won't have much of a ground army to support them or your opponents army is just so much bigger that you can flat out ignore them.
I'm not sure what is the right answer for them at this point. It seems like the only situation they are viable in is super late game to snipe BL's. I would like to see them possibly have splash back or some way to effectively deal with Corruptors.
This has been my experience as well. I'm not positive, but tempests strangely seem better vs terran bio because of the defensive threat of storm preventing marines from running in to kill them. But Zerg can just always pop more corruptors than you can deal with if you went tempests, and Protoss will never have enough high templar presence [to deter corruptors near tempests] unless Z went mutas first (not making sense already).
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MS is a kick in the balls to e-sports. SC doesn't need hero units outside the campaign (where they are awesome ).
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On October 29 2012 23:36 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 22:07 iNbluE wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... Yeah well, as hard as you pray, not gonna happen. People said the same thing about Vortex. ^.^
I also do think that they may are not only working on Vortex, but also on Fungal and FF. At least i see a few indicators with the burrowcharge for ultras (theyre strong enough in WOL combined with infestors, no need for that otherise) and with the new supporter role of the oracle. I don't know but the fact that they rework vortex gives me some hope back :-)
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On November 01 2012 03:14 doggy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 23:36 Antylamon wrote:On October 29 2012 22:07 iNbluE wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Antylamon wrote: Called it! :D
And now we wait for word about FF... Yeah well, as hard as you pray, not gonna happen. People said the same thing about Vortex. ^.^ I also do think that they may are not only working on Vortex, but also on Fungal and FF. At least i see a few indicators with the burrowcharge for ultras (theyre strong enough in WOL combined with infestors, no need for that otherise) and with the new supporter role of the oracle. I don't know but the fact that they rework vortex gives me some hope back :-)
i really hope so. making fungal a slow and nerfing or removing FF while giving P and Z buffs on other units to compensate would be awesome. btw. ultras werent viable at all in ZvP so i think blizzard not only wants ultras be better with fungal nerfed but also be viable in ZvP.
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I dont feel like ultras will be much more viable in zvp with the upgrade change. Theyre still killed ultrafast and efficient by a standard protoss army composition with lots of stalkers and some immortals in it. But yes, it would be more than awesome. The balance and furthermore the deep and diversity of the game would be improved by a lot.
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well if they dont give zerg like 3-4 viable lategame compositions i will switch races. another 3 years of BL infestor?? srsly no. so boring, slow and only strong above spines and in HOTS not even very strong because of BH, tempest and time warp field (which is nice that it isnt as strong as in WoL).
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On November 01 2012 03:00 Blacklizard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 09:23 archonOOid wrote: I think that everything that encourages a dynamic game play is great. The current death march of the zerg is so far away from a dynamic battle. The vortex is either a success or miss. The thing that makes Vortex boring and annoying for both sides is that the mothership is so slow moving. If it was fast moving, it'd be scary and all Zergs would go out of their way to split vs. it because it'd always be worth it to split. Instead, the mothership is just barely mobile enough to get a clutch Vortex off sometimes. Just enough for most Zergs to not bother splitting because it's time consuming and there is fear you'll lose the broodlords on the edges to stalkers, which leads to annoying losses. And from the Protoss side, the mothership moves just slow enough to make one want to put hot pokers in his eyes. You have to be within a few millimeters of where you want to cast it Before you want to cast vortex, otherwise you have to wait too long for the acceleration/deceleration cycle. It's just not putting the RT in RTS.
I don't think it'll take a year (at least it shouldn't). People will figure out how to get Immortals really early and rely on Purify to fend off things like 4-gate (after all, one chrono on MsC building gets you a Purify 110 seconds after your core is complete - so if your core timings are equal, a 4-gate can't possibly come earlier).
Also, the earliest a play can get blink is 160-ish seconds after core (if they spend 50 on gas, 50 on a stalker, and assuming they open standard). By this point, you can have two and a half immortals with CB (and probably enough MsC energy to chain two purifies). Likely, you'll have 3 (or you can build an obs first). 3 Immortals + MSC can effectively one-shot a stalker (takes two MsC shots - but they come quickly anyway).
I don't think I have *the* build to get all this figured out yet (without being horrid against pheonixes), but there are smarter people than me out there who will given a short amount of time.
On November 01 2012 03:03 Blacklizard wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 10:36 Masada714 wrote: As a protoss myself, Tempests in theory are good in PvZ if there is only Broodlords and/or Infestors. The problem with this is the Zerg having Corruptors in the army. I've tried building Tempests late game and the Zerg just makes a handful of Corruptors and just crush the Tempests. You can't run away with the Tempests either cause they are just slower.
It is similar in PvP as well. I've been the one building them and go against them. When I see a Protoss build Tempests it is like a free win. I just build a whole bunch of Stalkers and kill them. It is also because they cost so much that the Protoss won't have much of a ground army to support them or your opponents army is just so much bigger that you can flat out ignore them.
I'm not sure what is the right answer for them at this point. It seems like the only situation they are viable in is super late game to snipe BL's. I would like to see them possibly have splash back or some way to effectively deal with Corruptors. This has been my experience as well. I'm not positive, but tempests strangely seem better vs terran bio because of the defensive threat of storm preventing marines from running in to kill them. But Zerg can just always pop more corruptors than you can deal with if you went tempests, and Protoss will never have enough high templar presence [to deter corruptors near tempests] unless Z went mutas first (not making sense already).
Yeah, Corruptors against Tempests are a huge problem (you might even say a ... massive ... problem?). Whereas you can slow and FF hydras (and also have Colossi), storm seems out of reach (safely) and stalkers don't seem to kill corruptors fast enough to be cost effective. And this is completely theorycrafting (because while I've lost to corruptors with Tempests, I haven't seen many using Vipers), but the notion of zergs getting experienced with using Abduct on Tempests makes my head hurt. Maybe I need more cannons?
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@Treehead I like your numbers on immortals with the mothershipcore protection allowing you to tech faster... I can believe something solid will come about. Also, the MSC protects from phoenix to a degree. You can scout phoenix earlier if you sacrifice a MSC over his base (or maybe recall out just in time), or if you keep it next to your nexus you can get out purify and focus on a single phoenix.
Good call on Abduct.
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