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On October 29 2012 07:25 Technique wrote:
I don't like tempest at all, lost every time i focused too much on them.
Fine for 1-2 in the main army, but that's about it... they are too low damage in higher number (for their cost/food).
That is the whole point... to not focus too much on them. Make 2-4 max, they can snipe Brood Lords, Ultras and Infestors pretty easily, and they will force the engagement. They can also work as early harass units, much better than the Void Ray, because of the range. The unit itself is great.
Btw, I think they will make a Vortex close to what Stasis was in the SC BW. Would actually support idea because it would be used as a control spell, not walk-my-army-into-it-and-destroy-everything spell.
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On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 04:48 murphs wrote:
If they had any sense they would delete the mothership. This. So bad. And of course the mothership core with it. I'm in the beta and I hate the msc. It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Plus hero units have no place outside of the campaign.
I disagree, the MsC allows for so much new stuff for protoss that makes me cry from joy, also, if there is one unit that can reduce the protoss need of sentries, it's the MsC.
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On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote:
It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it.
Really? Really?
What about Mass Recall? That allows Toss to actually have some early game and mid-game presence without their entire army dying to a ling surround.
Photon Overcharge allows Toss not to die if they don't do a Forge FE. And with Forge FE, Toss dies anyways if Zerg 6pools.
Hell, Envision opens up Stargate tech for Toss. Is that limiting gameplay?
I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea from. I mean, maybe somewhat, because every game would start with getting a Mothership Core, but is it really all that different from 1Rax FE or even Zerg's early game, aka cheese or FE?
Plus, there's the choice of going Nexus first, or Gateway first, or Gas first, or even Forge first.
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On October 29 2012 04:48 murphs wrote:
If they had any sense they would delete the mothership.
Yeah, that's not going to happen. Not with their new unit being a baby Mothership.
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On October 29 2012 07:39 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:35 sagefreke wrote:
I think the Tempest as it is right now does a great job in PvZ against BL/Infestor.
My concern as a Zerg player is what do we go for in the late game now? Roaches late game become cost inefficient. Hydras lose to every gateway unit the Protoss has, and I'm not sold on Ultra's burrow charge changing anything in this matchup as long as Chargelots and Immortals are in the game as is. Is Swarm Host/hydra/Infestor/Corruptor supposed to be Zergs answer to Protoss players with Tempests/Collossi/Stalkers? I'm concerned that Hydras just won't be able to cut it in the DPS department. Hydras own EVERY gateway unit, the only thing that owns hydras is a collossus. Also do you have ANY IDEA how much free units a zerg has when he has broods, infestor and swarm hosts? Plus the ultralisk burrow charge is pretty amazing. Don't fear for the zerg they have even more new stuff than the protoss. And they are dominating right now anyways.
I don't think Hydras own every gateway unit at all... Chargelots shred them. Blink Stalkers mitigate damage well enough that Hydras end up losing the engagement... There's a good reason why pros don't use Hydras in ZvP anymore. The speed upgrade is not going to change anything in terms of winning straight up engagements against gateway units when it's been concluded that Roach/ling is a much more efficient composition vs. gateway.
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tempest is so boring to watch and boring overall, they should redo that unit T.T
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On October 29 2012 08:04 Killmouse wrote:
tempest is so boring to watch and boring overall, they should redo that unit T.T
Really? I think it's doing fine.
Just consider that it's not meant for early harass, like many people are using it for. Late game is where it really shines. Picking off BLs and Infestors here and there adds up and it can build suspense pretty quickly.
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On October 29 2012 07:46 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote:
It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Really? Really? What about Mass Recall? That allows Toss to actually have some early game and mid-game presence without their entire army dying to a ling surround. Photon Overcharge allows Toss not to die if they don't do a Forge FE. And with Forge FE, Toss dies anyways if Zerg 6pools. Hell, Envision opens up Stargate tech for Toss. Is that limiting gameplay? I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea from. I mean, maybe somewhat, because every game would start with getting a Mothership Core, but is it really all that different from 1Rax FE or even Zerg's early game, aka cheese or FE? Plus, there's the choice of going Nexus first, or Gateway first, Gas first, or even Forge first.
Well don't get me wrong. the abilities are nice, but I just don't like the idea of a unique unit.
The MSC can only be in one place . You either defend one base and protect it from cloaked threats and be ready to cast photon overcharge OR you take it with your army to recall when necessary. but since you can build only one every enemy will focus on killing it instantly which is not that hard.
the photon overcharge is a nice ability - but why does it have to be on the MSC? does not make sense to me. Give it to the nexus for like 75 energy. Envision could be given to another unit like the sentry or to a stargate unit.
Recall is maybe the biggest change and is really the only thing that makes sense on the MSC but I still don't like it. I'd rather have protoss get a building that can recall units. OR heck give the skill to the nexus as well since it can teleport to the nexus only.
Or if it really has to stay, change the name and instead of making it unique give it higher gas costs.
The unique unit concept really is not starcraft like and does not offer any advantages.
I'm pretty sure they did not include the mothership because of the innovative usefulness but because of the "AWWWW, a huge fucking mothership!" - effect.
But nobody is impressed anymore. Just let that shit go.
Some more concrete ideas:
-Nexus ability, photon overcharge, 75 energy, can be cast either on itself or any nexus
-new building Wormhole generator (costs 100 -100) requires cybercore and has recall ability for 125 energy(max 200)
-Merge envision again with reveal - any cloaked unit hit will be revealed for 60 seconds (or maybe 30 seconds since they were cloaked)
No stupid unique units!
edit: Energy cost fixed
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On October 29 2012 07:54 sagefreke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:39 Freeborn wrote:On October 29 2012 07:35 sagefreke wrote:
I think the Tempest as it is right now does a great job in PvZ against BL/Infestor.
My concern as a Zerg player is what do we go for in the late game now? Roaches late game become cost inefficient. Hydras lose to every gateway unit the Protoss has, and I'm not sold on Ultra's burrow charge changing anything in this matchup as long as Chargelots and Immortals are in the game as is. Is Swarm Host/hydra/Infestor/Corruptor supposed to be Zergs answer to Protoss players with Tempests/Collossi/Stalkers? I'm concerned that Hydras just won't be able to cut it in the DPS department. Hydras own EVERY gateway unit, the only thing that owns hydras is a collossus. Also do you have ANY IDEA how much free units a zerg has when he has broods, infestor and swarm hosts? Plus the ultralisk burrow charge is pretty amazing. Don't fear for the zerg they have even more new stuff than the protoss. And they are dominating right now anyways. I don't think Hydras own every gateway unit at all... Chargelots shred them. Blink Stalkers mitigate damage well enough that Hydras end up losing the engagement... There's a good reason why pros don't use Hydras in ZvP anymore. The speed upgrade is not going to change anything in terms of winning straight up engagements against gateway units when it's been concluded that Roach/ling is a much more efficient composition vs. gateway.
Just for you I will now go and play some zerg games with speed hydras! LEt's see how they do 
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I just can't get behind this philosophy. If the tempest is incrementally fixed until vortex isn't as critical then again we are left with other units' roles diluted. This isn't a straightforward equation were you can isolate one part of the equation and solve for it but a one laden with interconnected variables that need experimenting with simultaneously.
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On October 29 2012 08:09 Freeborn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:46 Antylamon wrote:On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote:
It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Really? Really? What about Mass Recall? That allows Toss to actually have some early game and mid-game presence without their entire army dying to a ling surround. Photon Overcharge allows Toss not to die if they don't do a Forge FE. And with Forge FE, Toss dies anyways if Zerg 6pools. Hell, Envision opens up Stargate tech for Toss. Is that limiting gameplay? I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea from. I mean, maybe somewhat, because every game would start with getting a Mothership Core, but is it really all that different from 1Rax FE or even Zerg's early game, aka cheese or FE? Plus, there's the choice of going Nexus first, or Gateway first, Gas first, or even Forge first. Well don't get me wrong. the abilities are nice, but I just don't like the idea of a unique unit.
Some people disagree.
The MSC can only be in one place . You either defend one base and protect it from cloaked threats and be ready to cast photon overcharge OR you take it with your army to recall when necessary. but since you can build only one every enemy will focus on killing it instantly which is not that hard.
Well, the focus of Recall is to retreat home when pressuring early game or mid-game. Zerg can't shoot up early game, except with Queens, which are terribly slow off creep. Terran has Marines, but the Marines are a bit busy stutter-stepping away from Zealots. If Toss does reach a situation in which he is likely to lose his Mothership Core, then he Recalls before it can die. It's a matter of knowing when to Recall, which can be very very interesting from a spectator's perspective.
Imagine a Toss (let's say MC) is looking to do some aggression. He moves out, but then he gets surrounded, and the situation looks grim, but he doesn't Recall. With some amazing Zealot/Stalker micro, he pulls through and wins the game. Awesome, right?
the photon overcharge is a nice ability - but why does it have to be on the MSC? does not make sense to me. Give it to the nexus for like 125 energy. Envision could be given to another unit like the sentry or to a stargate unit.
Envision could fit well on the Oracle, but Blizz put it on the Mothership Core because it was intended to help defend against cloak-based harass, allowing Toss to postpone the necessity of Observers. If it were on the Oracle, then it could just fly anywhere with detection whenever you want it.
On the Nexus, it only has 100 energy.
I know, that can be changed, but I just find that error a bit amusing.
Photon Overcharge is an iffy subject for putting it on the Nexus. I tend to relate Mothership Core FEs to Forge FEs. The prerequisite is a Forge to build the Cannon. Instead, the prerequisite is a unit, which can die at any time. This makes defense against early aggression more exciting. If a Terran decides to do some Marine aggro,
Recall is maybe the biggest change and is really the only thing that makes sense on the MSC but I still don't like it. I'd rather have protoss get a building that can recall units. OR heck give the skill to the nexus as well since it can teleport to the nexus only.
Well, that was tried before, and it was a bit boring when you knew you couldn't kill the Toss army no matter what happened. At least now you can try to kill the Mothership Core if Toss slips up, giving you some hope.
Or if it really has to stay, change the name and instead of making it unique give it higher gas costs.
The unique unit concept really is not starcraft like and does not offer any advantages.
That would pose a problem with Envision. Dayvie said that you are still supposed to require Obs as an adaptation if Terran goes for mass Cloak-shees or Toss goes for mass DTs. If you had, say, 2 Mothership Cores, then you could opt out of getting Obs ever. One Mothership Core for Envision, one for Recall and Photon Overcharge.
Although I admit this is the best idea you have to offer in your post.
I'm pretty sure they did not include the mothership because of the innovative usefulness but because of the "AWWWW, a huge fucking mothership!" - effect.
But nobody is impressed anymore. Just let that shit go.
It's not solely a matter of impressing people because it's a big unit. It's an Arbiter, and it's useful.
Plus, Nukes get an effect of awe just like that. Does anyone complain about those?
Some more concrete ideas:
-Nexus ability, photon overcharge, 125 energy, can be cast either on itself or any nexus
-new building Wormhole generator (costs 100 -100) requires cybercore and has recall ability for 125 energy
-Merge envision again with reveal - any cloaked unit hit will be revealed for 60 seconds (or maybe 30 seconds since they were cloaked)
Addressed the issues with Photon Overcharge and Wormhole Generators before.
As for the Envision thing, that would help against 1 DT, but not against 2. That's kind of stupid.
However, I don't think I fully understand what you mean, so feel free to clarify.
No stupid unique units!
...Now this is just being judgmental.
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On October 29 2012 08:39 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 08:09 Freeborn wrote:On October 29 2012 07:46 Antylamon wrote:On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote:
It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Really? Really? What about Mass Recall? That allows Toss to actually have some early game and mid-game presence without their entire army dying to a ling surround. Photon Overcharge allows Toss not to die if they don't do a Forge FE. And with Forge FE, Toss dies anyways if Zerg 6pools. Hell, Envision opens up Stargate tech for Toss. Is that limiting gameplay? I honestly have no idea where you're getting this idea from. I mean, maybe somewhat, because every game would start with getting a Mothership Core, but is it really all that different from 1Rax FE or even Zerg's early game, aka cheese or FE? Plus, there's the choice of going Nexus first, or Gateway first, Gas first, or even Forge first. Well don't get me wrong. the abilities are nice, but I just don't like the idea of a unique unit. Some people disagree. Show nested quote +The MSC can only be in one place . You either defend one base and protect it from cloaked threats and be ready to cast photon overcharge OR you take it with your army to recall when necessary. but since you can build only one every enemy will focus on killing it instantly which is not that hard. Well, the focus of Recall is to retreat home when pressuring early game or mid-game. Zerg can't shoot up early game, except with Queens, which are terribly slow off creep. Terran has Marines, but the Marines are a bit busy stutter-stepping away from Zealots. If Toss does reach a situation in which he is likely to lose his Mothership Core, then he Recalls before it can die. It's a matter of knowing when to Recall, which can be very very interesting from a spectator's perspective. Imagine a Toss (let's say MC) is looking to do some aggression. He moves out, but then he gets surrounded, and the situation looks grim, but he doesn't Recall. With some amazing Zealot/Stalker micro, he pulls through and wins the game. Awesome, right? Show nested quote +the photon overcharge is a nice ability - but why does it have to be on the MSC? does not make sense to me. Give it to the nexus for like 125 energy. Envision could be given to another unit like the sentry or to a stargate unit. Envision could fit well on the Oracle, but Blizz put it on the Mothership Core because it was intended to help defend against cloak-based harass, allowing Toss to postpone the necessity of Observers. If it were on the Oracle, then it could just fly anywhere with detection whenever you want it. On the Nexus, it only has 100 energy. I know, that can be changed, but I just find that error a bit amusing. Photon Overcharge is an iffy subject for putting it on the Nexus. I tend to relate Mothership Core FEs to Forge FEs. The prerequisite is a Forge to build the Cannon. Instead, the prerequisite is a unit, which can die at any time. This makes defense against early aggression more exciting. If a Terran decides to do some Marine aggro, Show nested quote +Recall is maybe the biggest change and is really the only thing that makes sense on the MSC but I still don't like it. I'd rather have protoss get a building that can recall units. OR heck give the skill to the nexus as well since it can teleport to the nexus only. Well, that was tried before, and it was a bit boring when you knew you couldn't kill the Toss army no matter what happened. At least now you can try to kill the Mothership Core if Toss slips up, giving you some hope. Show nested quote +Or if it really has to stay, change the name and instead of making it unique give it higher gas costs.
The unique unit concept really is not starcraft like and does not offer any advantages. That would pose a problem with Envision. Dayvie said that you are still supposed to require Obs as an adaptation if Terran goes for mass Cloak-shees or Toss goes for mass DTs. If you had, say, 2 Mothership Cores, then you could opt out of getting Obs ever. One Mothership Core for Envision, one for Recall and Photon Overcharge. Although I admit this is the best idea you have to offer in your post. Show nested quote +I'm pretty sure they did not include the mothership because of the innovative usefulness but because of the "AWWWW, a huge fucking mothership!" - effect.
But nobody is impressed anymore. Just let that shit go. It's not solely a matter of impressing people because it's a big unit. It's an Arbiter, and it's useful. Plus, Nukes get an effect of awe just like that. Does anyone complain about those? Show nested quote +Some more concrete ideas:
-Nexus ability, photon overcharge, 125 energy, can be cast either on itself or any nexus
-new building Wormhole generator (costs 100 -100) requires cybercore and has recall ability for 125 energy
-Merge envision again with reveal - any cloaked unit hit will be revealed for 60 seconds (or maybe 30 seconds since they were cloaked) Addressed the issues with Photon Overcharge and Wormhole Generators before. As for the Envision thing, that would help against 1 DT, but not against 2. That's kind of stupid. However, I don't think I fully understand what you mean, so feel free to clarify. ...Now this is just being judgmental.
Alright, let's face it I just don't like the idea of unique units in starcraft, if you like them that's your choice.
I really don't see that the mothership did help anything to make this game more interesting, it's really not strong enough to be impressive.
Yes it's an arbiter, just slower more expensive and you can only have one. Great. Very original and interesting.
The only good argument you make is about limiting detection. But the reveal mechanic is much more like the fungals reveal mechanic than an observers detection, that means you will have to hit each cloaked unit and you only have a limited number of uses due to energy cost (which can be tweaked).
But in the end, if you like the mothership than that's more a matter of taste.
I personally really hate all those pvz ending with broods,infestor corrupter vs collosi, stalker, archon mothership hinging on those vortexes being cast.
Recall is a nice mechanic but it does not seem to be working very well on the mothership or we would see it more often and blizzard would not have given it to the MSC as well.
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On October 29 2012 04:24 juicyjames wrote:
Blizzard wants Tempests to fix colossi wars PvP and Broodlord/Infestor in ZvP. Do you think they are succeeding?
Do you think they succeeded with Void Rays?
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On October 29 2012 07:43 rpgalon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 07:35 Freeborn wrote:On October 29 2012 04:48 murphs wrote:
If they had any sense they would delete the mothership. This. So bad. And of course the mothership core with it. I'm in the beta and I hate the msc. It's slow and you can only have one, I feel that it limits the gameplay more than it adds to it. Plus hero units have no place outside of the campaign. I disagree, the MsC allows for so much new stuff for protoss that makes me cry from joy, also, if there is one unit that can reduce the protoss need of sentries, it's the MsC.
but it shouldn't be a unit! Just make it attached to nexus!
It's so silly that PvP which should see more expansions now because of the MsC is basically just a blinkstalker fest now because MsC + blink is a super buff to the class blink + obs build. You don't need a robo anymore so you hit faster and still have detection plus you can even escape with recall.
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I think Fungal will also get a major rework sometime in the beta considering how much trouble it is giving the other races in the late-game, and plus Zerg has some more options to compensate in the form of new units and reworks of older units. A rework of fungal could possibly shift the strengths of late-game Zerg away from the Infestor-Broodlord combo and possibly into other more interesting compositions.
If the developers succeed in creating more ways to deal with the Infestor-BL combo either by reworking Fungal or tweaking counters such as Tempests, then I think Vortex can be reworked to at least remove the Archon toilet aspect.
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I think that everything that encourages a dynamic game play is great. The current death march of the zerg is so far away from a dynamic battle. The vortex is either a success or miss.
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On October 29 2012 06:10 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:33 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
it would also add a dynamic to TvP where the more mobile Stargate play harasses/forces Mech to engage, but that would mean that Mech has to be much stronger (because right now it's fine defensively but its very hard to pressure/punish some things since u have to have perfect engagements)
also i don't understand, why can't they just buff Void rays to do more damage vs Massive units? And then Tempest can still force engagements with its long range and harass, but it would be weaker since it doesn't also counter Colossi/BL. Void rays already do bonus vs massive. They are still useless in both pvp and pvz.
"why can't they just buff Void rays to do more damage vs Massive units?"
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On October 29 2012 07:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 05:45 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On October 29 2012 05:41 Big J wrote:On October 29 2012 05:37 Prodigal wrote:On October 29 2012 05:19 Ljas wrote:On October 29 2012 05:17 Prodigal wrote:
Fix the title please. Not rework. Removal. If you reread what Dayvie said, he wants to phase it out a bit. Removal isn't phasing it out just a bit, it's phasing it out entirely. Well vortex is a binary spell. Phasing out a spell like that would imply: -changing duration and cost -changing its effect (removing invulnerability, damage over time... Whatever creative idea you can think of) The former would a buff or nerf, the nerf being only 1 vortex per battle. The latter would change the spell entirely, most likely including a name change. In any case, the current iteration of vortex is removed. So a title that isint misleading would include removal, or nerf. They already played with that in the alpha. Vortex only hits ground. I believe that is what they will re-implement. Just like they removed all the BC changes (that were already confirmed at the end of the alpha), just like they removed all the Raven changes (that were very logical), they removed the Vortex change, so that people had to test the new units first. (if you watched the first week of the beta... TvZ was just mass Raven+BC; "New units? YAMATOOOOOOOOOOO") Question, what were the raven changes? Sounds very interesting, thanks in advance! Raven to 2.5 speed and HSM energy cost to 100. Migth be that stuff like this returns 
Thanks for answering, couldn't find this info on liquipedia or anything!
Edit: Shit double post sorry ;;
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As a protoss myself, Tempests in theory are good in PvZ if there is only Broodlords and/or Infestors. The problem with this is the Zerg having Corruptors in the army. I've tried building Tempests late game and the Zerg just makes a handful of Corruptors and just crush the Tempests. You can't run away with the Tempests either cause they are just slower.
It is similar in PvP as well. I've been the one building them and go against them. When I see a Protoss build Tempests it is like a free win. I just build a whole bunch of Stalkers and kill them. It is also because they cost so much that the Protoss won't have much of a ground army to support them or your opponents army is just so much bigger that you can flat out ignore them.
I'm not sure what is the right answer for them at this point. It seems like the only situation they are viable in is super late game to snipe BL's. I would like to see them possibly have splash back or some way to effectively deal with Corruptors.
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On October 29 2012 10:36 Masada714 wrote:
As a protoss myself, Tempests in theory are good in PvZ if there is only Broodlords and/or Infestors. The problem with this is the Zerg having Corruptors in the army. I've tried building Tempests late game and the Zerg just makes a handful of Corruptors and just crush the Tempests. You can't run away with the Tempests either cause they are just slower.
It is similar in PvP as well. I've been the one building them and go against them. When I see a Protoss build Tempests it is like a free win. I just build a whole bunch of Stalkers and kill them. It is also because they cost so much that the Protoss won't have much of a ground army to support them or your opponents army is just so much bigger that you can flat out ignore them.
I'm not sure what is the right answer for them at this point. It seems like the only situation they are viable in is super late game to snipe BL's. I would like to see them possibly have splash back or some way to effectively deal with Corruptors.
Agreed, but we should support anything that will help Protoss deal with Broodlord/infestor. I am not sure if it is worse the BC/viking battles, but it is close. We should also support any effort to end the War of World end game for PvP. It is such garbage to watch.
I support the plan of making the tempest a better, more viable unit. Right now the unit is useful and because it can shoot ground, it has a place in the late game. I would like to see it used on better maps with features that it could use to zone out BL and colossi armies. The unit has the ability to be solid, but need to be worth the investment.
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EPT
