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On October 06 2012 09:29 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote:
Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game . Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection.
And how does that change anything it's not like detection wasn't used .... There's allways a Overseers or Observers floating around. Not to mention the 40 second delay is so incredibly long that you can still use 1 unit to move in front to check out where mines are and then walk over and or clean it up.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 06 2012 09:31 wcr.4fun wrote:the mine is okay, I like the mothership core change but the void siphon, dear god oO... Who's ever going to use that ability? lol. The oracle is really vulnerable, costs a lot of gas and it's a pathetic 3 minerals/second lol. Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:29 Defrag wrote:On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote:
Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game . Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection. Was never the case. You could turn off autofire ....
Hey man, if you build 5 oracles and void siphon a completely undefended building and your opponent manages to completely not see it at all, you could build an extra zealot every 7 seconds! That's a big deal in the late game.... Oh wait, no it isn't, and if you build 5 oracles you die.
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The Widow Mine changes sound interesting for TvZ, but I don't think it will have much of an impact in TvP or TvT.
Stalker+Obs will slay an infinite number of Widow Mines at 6 range vs immobile 5 range. Or any Stargate unit. What happens when a Phoenix lifts a Widow Mine now?
I guess this change will force more scans in TvT, but honestly, we already scan a lot in TvT so it won't be much of a change.
I don't understand why they're bring back the Corruptor's mineral suck and giving it to the Oracle. That idea is kinda the Viper's now, its less cool if Protoss have something similar.
I don't see it working for Protoss anyway; when was the last time you saw a Protoss really need some minerals? All they can spend it on is Gateways, Zealots, and Interceptors(lol). Do we really want to encourage lategame mass warpin even more? 3 minerals/sec is equal to about 4.5 workers mining close patches. Not bad for a 3 supply unit but I'm not sure if its worth the hassle of bouncing it between shielded buildings when Protoss don't do the same thing for Void Rays.
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United Kingdom12042 Posts
Mech can beat siege lines... You just need the vision advantage, some thors mixed in and slow tank pushing.
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I like the Oracle change.
Void Siphon might be a dumb spell, but it will put some light pressure on anyone who is careless with building undefended buildings. If one or more oracles kill off a Pylon using Void Syphon, then the owner loses 400 minerals extra for a total of 500m, that´s a LOT for a forward pylon.
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On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote:
So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work?
congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol
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United States7483 Posts
On October 06 2012 09:33 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:29 Defrag wrote:On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote:
Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game . Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection. And how does that change anything it's not like detection wasn't used .... There's allways a Overseers or Observers floating around. Not to mention the 40 second delay is so incredibly long that you can still use 1 unit to move in front to check out where mines are and then walk over and or clean it up.
It makes the unit potentially a lot more cost efficient. Now if you put 3-4 of them in one location to lock it down (stagger them a little), your enemy needs a pretty serious effort to get past, and they can hold off multiple waves, rather than going off to single zerglings then doing nothing.
A mine that sits in your base, then kills a drop will still be guarding that location. They can actually be used as mobile turrets or missile platforms if you really want to use them that way.
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On October 06 2012 09:35 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:33 s3rp wrote:On October 06 2012 09:29 Defrag wrote:On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote:
Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game . Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection. And how does that change anything it's not like detection wasn't used .... There's allways a Overseers or Observers floating around. Not to mention the 40 second delay is so incredibly long that you can still use 1 unit to move in front to check out where mines are and then walk over and or clean it up. It makes the unit potentially a lot more cost efficient. Now if you put 3-4 of them in one location to lock it down (stagger them a little), your enemy needs a pretty serious effort to get past, and they can hold off multiple waves, rather than going off to single zerglings then doing nothing. A mine that sits in your base, then kills a drop will still be guarding that location. They can actually be used as mobile turrets or missile platforms if you really want to use them that way.
The reduced the splash so much that the only thing is kills are Lings and the splash radius is NOT very big. Like i said its nice early game ( which it was before ) but still useless later . As base defense you will have a turret ring anyway ( at least you should ) . And with the 40 second delay it doesn't help to secure from flanks any better than it did before.
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On October 06 2012 09:35 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote:
So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work? congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol
Except you do it indefinitely all game.....?
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United States7483 Posts
On October 06 2012 09:33 RoboBob wrote:
The Widow Mine changes sound interesting for TvZ, but I don't think it will have much of an impact in TvP or TvT.
Stalker+Obs will slay an infinite number of Widow Mines at 6 range vs immobile 5 range. Or any Stargate unit. What happens when a Phoenix lifts a Widow Mine now?
I guess this change will force more scans in TvT, but honestly, we already scan a lot in TvT so it won't be much of a change.
I don't understand why they're bring back the Corruptor's mineral suck and giving it to the Oracle. That idea is kinda the Viper's now, its less cool if Protoss have something similar.
I don't see it working for Protoss anyway; when was the last time you saw a Protoss really need some minerals? All they can spend it on is Gateways, Zealots, and Interceptors(lol). Do we really want to encourage lategame mass warpin even more? 3 minerals/sec is equal to about 4.5 workers mining close patches. Not bad for a 3 supply unit but I'm not sure if its worth the hassle of bouncing it between shielded buildings when Protoss don't do the same thing for Void Rays.
Phoenix grav lift range is less than the 5 launch range, so that's kind of a non-issue.
Yeah, stalker + obs with careful control and attention can break the field, but that's not different from before, but now the mines can more easily handle zealot waves and warp prism harass. Plus, you know, if you fly a viking or two over and snipe the obs, he won't just suicide a zealot in to kill the mines he's found and then move past.
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On October 06 2012 09:37 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:35 Whitewing wrote:On October 06 2012 09:33 s3rp wrote:On October 06 2012 09:29 Defrag wrote:On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote:
Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game . Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection. And how does that change anything it's not like detection wasn't used .... There's allways a Overseers or Observers floating around. Not to mention the 40 second delay is so incredibly long that you can still use 1 unit to move in front to check out where mines are and then walk over and or clean it up. It makes the unit potentially a lot more cost efficient. Now if you put 3-4 of them in one location to lock it down (stagger them a little), your enemy needs a pretty serious effort to get past, and they can hold off multiple waves, rather than going off to single zerglings then doing nothing. A mine that sits in your base, then kills a drop will still be guarding that location. They can actually be used as mobile turrets or missile platforms if you really want to use them that way. The reduced the splash so much that the only thing is kills are Lings and the splash radius is NOT very big.
Pride is making the unit look overpowered in practice...
Of course it's still too early to say if it needs a nerf or not.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 06 2012 09:37 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:35 Whitewing wrote:On October 06 2012 09:33 s3rp wrote:On October 06 2012 09:29 Defrag wrote:On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote:
Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game . Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection. And how does that change anything it's not like detection wasn't used .... There's allways a Overseers or Observers floating around. Not to mention the 40 second delay is so incredibly long that you can still use 1 unit to move in front to check out where mines are and then walk over and or clean it up. It makes the unit potentially a lot more cost efficient. Now if you put 3-4 of them in one location to lock it down (stagger them a little), your enemy needs a pretty serious effort to get past, and they can hold off multiple waves, rather than going off to single zerglings then doing nothing. A mine that sits in your base, then kills a drop will still be guarding that location. They can actually be used as mobile turrets or missile platforms if you really want to use them that way. The reduced the splash so much that the only thing is kills are Lings and the splash radius is NOT very big.
I'm aware of that, but do you think it's fair for 8 supply to hold off 40-50? The initial missile hit deals 160 damage, that's a shit ton of damage.
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On October 06 2012 09:35 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote:
So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work? congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol Killing a Pylon with an Oracle will take a little while, but the opponent will lose a pylon for 100m, lose 400m stolen, and you will gain 400m of his. In total you deal/gain 900m of damage for a single proxy pylon. I think it´s worth building a few Oracles for that. With Entomb and Void Siphon, you can deal quite a bit of economic damage.
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On October 06 2012 09:34 Qikz wrote:
Mech can beat siege lines... You just need the vision advantage, some thors mixed in and slow tank pushing.
Really? I need a replay to believe this. So,you are saying that Tanks+Thors+maybe Hellions,can beat Tank+Marine? Then why no Progamers go for this Mech play? They all end going for Tank+Marines because is the best.No option fot TvT for now.Maybe its the best MU or maybe not,but in terms of choices is sucks
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On October 06 2012 09:37 beefhamburger wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:35 wcr.4fun wrote:On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote:
So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work? congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol Except you do it indefinitely all game.....?
who's going to let you...?
On October 06 2012 09:40 Forumite wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:35 wcr.4fun wrote:On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote:
So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work? congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol Killing a Pylon with an Oracle will take a little while, but the opponent will lose a pylon for 100m, lose 400m stolen, and you will gain 400m of his. In total you deal/gain 900m of damage for a single proxy pylon. I think it´s worth building a few Oracles for that. With Entomb and Void Siphon, you can deal quite a bit of economic damage.
it doesn't steal minerals. (nothing in the patch notes indicates it does)
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United States7483 Posts
Question for clarification: When you use void siphon, does the opponent lose the minerals? Do you gain minerals if you target your own buildings, or is it net even?
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United States7483 Posts
On October 06 2012 09:41 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:34 Qikz wrote:
Mech can beat siege lines... You just need the vision advantage, some thors mixed in and slow tank pushing. Really? I need a replay to believe this. So,you are saying that Tanks+Thors+maybe Hellions,can beat Tank+Marine? Then why no Progamers go for this Mech play? They all end going for Tank+Marines because is the best.No option fot TvT for now.Maybe its the best MU or maybe not,but in terms of choices is sucks
Um, they do, you need to watch the GSL occasionally. Pure mech play has become fairly common at the highest levels. It doesn't usually wind up being bio/tank vs. mech because you only add tanks as the bio player if your opponent is also going for bio. Pure bio vs. mech is better than bio/tank vs. mech.
Tank marine is what you build when you started with bio, but your opponent also went bio. You add tanks because it adds a lot of muscle to your composition, pure bio vs. bio is awful. If your opponent is pure mech, you stay pure bio. Tank marine vs. mech is just idiotic, you give up your biggest advantage (mobility) to try to outmuscle a composition that quite simply has a lot more muscle. Pure mech has no problem breaking a marine/tank composition. Upgraded blue flame hellions with tanks behind absolutely smash marine/tank.
Just as an example game that's quite recent would be game 1 of Bomber vs. Baby in code A round 1 day3. Bomber builds up a pure mech composition and his opponent goes bio, Bomber winds up winning the game.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 06 2012 06:54 juicyjames wrote:TERRAN Widow Mines - This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload.
- Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed.
- This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile.
- Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage.
- The missile auto-acquires cloaked units.
- The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts.
- It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now.
- The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
PROTOSS Oracle- The Phase Shield ability has been removed
- This unit has a new ability called Void Siphon.
- The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and drains 3 minerals every second until canceled.
- The range is 7.
- The damage/drain effect ticks when you cast the ability and every sequential second following.
- Void Siphon costs 50 energy to cast.
Mothership Core- This unit’s Purify ability has changed.
- When a player casts Purify on their Nexus, it grants the Nexus the ability to attack, no longer requiring the Core to attach itself.
- The Nexus weapon has a range of 13 and a damage of 20.
- Purify now lasts for 60 seconds and still costs 100 energy.
- The scale of this unit has been lowered to 0.8.
- This unit has had its shield/health lowered to 60/130.
- This unit now costs 2 supply.
As we mentioned last week, our main focus this week was redesigning the Widow Mine and replacing the Oracle’s Phase Shield ability. We made quite a few changes to these units that we’ll get to in the paragraphs below, but first we wanted to talk about a few Mothership Core changes. We heard your concerns regarding last week’s changes and have made a few additional Mothership Core tuning passes to help make it a stronger defensive option while using Purify but slightly weaker offensively. Thanks again for all the feedback on the Mothership Core; now let’s dig into the Phase Shield and Widow Mine changes. The Phase Shield ability is great against Fungal Growth, but because it’s used in such limited circumstances, it’s not all that appealing in most games. As it stands, the Oracle is a harassment caster that only goes for the enemy mineral line, but we thought it would be fun to add a secondary harassment ability that’s not aimed at the mineral line which harasses opponents in a brand new way. The Oracle’s new ability, Void Siphon, allows it to harvest minerals by attacking enemy structures. We’re hoping that this change will open the door for some new harassment options to complement those already in Starcraft II. For the Widow Mine, we wanted to make a few updates to achieve the following goals: - Make the Widow Mine into an actual cloaked threat.
- Make the Widow Mine into a powerful piece that players can revolve strategies around.
- Make the Widow Mine into a unit opponents fear, forcing them to react accordingly when Terran players bring them out.
In order to go further in this direction, we’re trying a version of the Widow Mine that doesn’t self-destruct to attack. The updated Widow Mine will be used much in the same way as it is now, but the main difference is that instead of blowing up it shoots a missile, remains cloaked, and rebuilds another missile for later use. Because Widow Mines no longer self-destruct, opponents will have to react accordingly when they’re in play. After the changes, this unit is very different from any unit we’ve had in the past, so we fully anticipate that it will need a lot of testing. Please remember that the numbers are not final and may require multiple tuning passes. While we want to try to push these new designs as much as we can, the new roles are not set in stone, so we encourage you to spend as much time as you can testing out the new changes and give us your feedback. We hope to work towards creating exciting new units and abilities for every race in Heart of the Swarm! Poll: First impressions of the Widow mine changesThumbs up (754) 53% Thumbs down (517) 36% No thumbs (165) 11% 1436 total votes Your vote: First impressions of the Widow mine changes (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs
Poll: First impressions of the Oracle changesThumbs down (844) 65% Thumbs up (292) 23% No thumbs (157) 12% 1293 total votes Your vote: First impressions of the Oracle changes (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs
Poll: First impressions of the M-core changesNo thumbs (460) 42% Thumbs up (374) 34% Thumbs down (266) 24% 1100 total votes Your vote: First impressions of the M-core changes (Vote): Thumbs up
(Vote): Thumbs down
(Vote): No thumbs
Here are my thoughts. Because I know someone asked.
1) How is the widow mine still defined as a mine? It doesn't act in a way that I've ever associated with a mine. Also 40 splash seems like a lot..
2)Void Siphon, basically just lol, can it target floating CC's? Why would I want 3/ min a second and possibly use a gas unit instead of making 1 more probe..I like the idea of $ for damage..but i think this is going to be a gimmick unit unless we get more $$, also, why not gas? PS, does this take from their mineral patches or does it actually increase the total minerals that can be 'mined' from the map?
3) I'm not feeling like HotS is feeling like an actual new expansion (is it gonna be $60?) it feels like a UMS with some quirky units. Am I the only one who feels like this?
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On October 06 2012 09:42 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:37 beefhamburger wrote:On October 06 2012 09:35 wcr.4fun wrote:On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote:
So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work? congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol Except you do it indefinitely all game.....? who's going to let you...?
I think you missed the part where the pylon is in your base. Just guard your ramp.
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Widow mine seems a bit op now :/
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EPT
