1. We want Widow Mine to be an awesome new unit for Terran that's difficult for other races to deal with.
2. If Protoss needs more options - mothership core gets some sort of soft detection instead of oracle.
3. If Zerg needs more detection early - remove the evo requirement for spore crawlers
All this is still under discussion so feedback is more than welcome. But please remember we do want the Widow Mine to be a powerful new threat that players have to prep against." - Dustin Browder, 10/9
"Protoss are going to get some buffs this week. Hopefully they will make a difference for you. But we are still in beta, so I can't promise they will be enough." - Dustin Browder, 10/9
"Widow Mine - We'd like to try this unit as powerful as possible for the first pass. We felt that Terran didn't get as much cool/powerful options as the other two races in HotS, and are exploring to see if this unit can be that.
Entomb - We definitely agree that this is really strong. However, what we are currently unsure on is how much of the strength of Entomb is on the Energize and the ability to cast 2 Entombs right when the first Oracle comes into play. Either way, this is one of the things we're trying to address this week. Feedback on this area would help us greatly." - David Kim, 10/9
When a player casts Purify on their Nexus, it grants the Nexus the ability to attack, no longer requiring the Core to attach itself.
The Nexus weapon has a range of 13 and a damage of 20.
Purify now lasts for 60 seconds and still costs 100 energy.
The scale of this unit has been lowered to 0.8.
This unit has had its shield/health lowered to 60/130.
This unit now costs 2 supply.
Oracle
The Phase Shield ability has been removed
This unit has a new ability called Void Siphon.
The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and harvests 3 minerals every second until canceled. (Note: This ability will not cause the opposing player to lose minerals.)
The range is 7.
The damage/drain effect ticks when you cast the ability and every sequential second following.
Void Siphon costs 50 energy to cast.
TERRAN
Widow Mine
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload.
Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed.
This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile.
Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage.
The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.)
The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts.
It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now.
The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
As we mentioned last week, our main focus this week was redesigning the Widow Mine and replacing the Oracle’s Phase Shield ability. We made quite a few changes to these units that we’ll get to in the paragraphs below, but first we wanted to talk about a few Mothership Core changes. We heard your concerns regarding last week’s changes and have made a few additional Mothership Core tuning passes to help make it a stronger defensive option while using Purify but slightly weaker offensively. Thanks again for all the feedback on the Mothership Core; now let’s dig into the Phase Shield and Widow Mine changes.
The Phase Shield ability is great against Fungal Growth, but because it’s used in such limited circumstances, it’s not all that appealing in most games. As it stands, the Oracle is a harassment caster that only goes for the enemy mineral line, but we thought it would be fun to add a secondary harassment ability that’s not aimed at the mineral line which harasses opponents in a brand new way. The Oracle’s new ability, Void Siphon, allows it to harvest minerals by attacking enemy structures. We’re hoping that this change will open the door for some new harassment options to complement those already in Starcraft II.
For the Widow Mine, we wanted to make a few updates to achieve the following goals:
Make the Widow Mine into an actual cloaked threat.
Make the Widow Mine into a powerful piece that players can revolve strategies around.
Make the Widow Mine into a unit opponents fear, forcing them to react accordingly when Terran players bring them out.
In order to go further in this direction, we’re trying a version of the Widow Mine that doesn’t self-destruct to attack. The updated Widow Mine will be used much in the same way as it is now, but the main difference is that instead of blowing up it shoots a missile, remains cloaked, and rebuilds another missile for later use. Because Widow Mines no longer self-destruct, opponents will have to react accordingly when they’re in play. After the changes, this unit is very different from any unit we’ve had in the past, so we fully anticipate that it will need a lot of testing.
Please remember that the numbers are not final and may require multiple tuning passes. While we want to try to push these new designs as much as we can, the new roles are not set in stone, so we encourage you to spend as much time as you can testing out the new changes and give us your feedback. We hope to work towards creating exciting new units and abilities for every race in Heart of the Swarm!
I like that they feel free to make drastic changes like these, while at the same time I scratch my head. That's what testing is for I guess. Not sure if I like the window mine changes, I'd have to see it in game.
New widow mine seems interesting, though it seems like the actual role of the unit has been altered from what was originally intended. Still too early to see if that is a good thing or bad thing.
The Corruptor had the Void Syphon ability back in the Blizzcon build of the HotS alpha. Strange to see it back for Protoss. I kinda liked the Phase Shield.
I really don't like any of these changes at all. The Widow Mine is just going to compliment bio even more, it's not going to make players want to go mech. Way too strong with this change.
I don't get the point of the mineral siphon ability. 3minerals/s is pretty slow. It just means that I can't build buildings near the edges of my base anymore cuz my marines would be out of range of the Oracle.
void siphon sounds really dumb. Even if phase shield wasn't used in that many games, it really had potential to be useful at the highest level of play. Of course when most people are 1-Aing and exploring the other new units a very special spell is not going to get major use. I honestly can't imagine getting excited over a void siphon in a pro game as much as I would over a really clever phase shift that protects the interceptors long enough to focus down the brood lords, or something like that.
The widow mine is like a missile battery now. The siphon ability seems....arbitrary for the oracle. Maybe good players can make it work well, but it seems out of place.
Im concerned about the Oracle's ability having 3dps.
You can steal 180 minerals per minute from your opponent to you if i understand it correctly? (This really needs to be explained more, that seems like the simple analysis) but 3dps?
A zergling has 7.2dps, Oracle has 3dps with this ability and needs to "Channel". Its 50 energy, so it takes 88.8 seconds of energy regeneration to cast it once, you cant run out then run back in and hit him again. Can you move while casting? Is there anything at all stopping a single marine from cancelling the channel on your expensive gas unit before it does anything of note whatsoever after blowing all of its energy?
Widow Mine change seems very powerful - reactored 40s build time from the factory, very reasonable in my opinion, and costing 75/25 - Previously if you hit even a zealot or a roach, your unit had been cost effective, but now it is an effective killing machine that must be feared, and should be very easily be able to reach cost efficiencies into the hundreds of percentages. Basically the only way you can fuck this up is if you lose your mine without it getting an attack off, but that is a good thing in my eyes. It makes factory plays so much stronger, its not just a balanced and cost effective unit, but a really damn scary one that has the potential to play a very massive part in the matchups without making the other player unable to win.
My only problem with the widow mine.. What if he just builds one at the 4 minute mark and somehow gets it burrowed near a ramp or mineral line? It has only a 2 second burrow (1.44 seconds of real time) and that makes 1gate robo pretty much mandatory unless you can get some kind of consistent detection by the 4-5 minute mark. 40 damage splash with the time to regenerate and hit a worker line 3-5 times? If a single mine gets burrowed in a particularly good place it will be game endingly powerful
Don't like that Phase Shield was removed. IMO they should have made it more useful rather than removing it, eg giving Terran more powerful abilities aka buffing 250mm strike cannon. The new ability doesn't really seem very interesting when you compare it to in battle micro.
I don't think they know what they want to do with the Oracle. I hope they drop it for a new unit or radically alter its current abilities (more combat-centric raiding?)..
I feel like widow mine came "place&forget" unit. Seriously, it doesn't need any babysitting or micro to use. Just place it somewhere and let it do its thing <_<.
Oracle * The Phase Shield ability has been removed * This unit has a new ability called Void Siphon. * The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and drains 3 minerals every second until canceled. * The range is 7. * The damage/drain effect ticks when you cast the ability and every sequential second following. * Void Siphon costs 50 energy to cast.
Does the enemy lose the 3 min/s, the protoss gain 3 min/s, or both?
Void Siphon doesn't sound very exciting, it's hard to really "notice" it from a spectator standpoint. I think the widow mine change is interesting though.
Oracle * The Phase Shield ability has been removed * This unit has a new ability called Void Siphon. * The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and drains 3 minerals every second until canceled. * The range is 7. * The damage/drain effect ticks when you cast the ability and every sequential second following. * Void Siphon costs 50 energy to cast.
I have not idea if these changes will work or not. But I will say I absolutely love that Blizzard is taking big chances in testing the units in beta. If they continue to do this to old units as well, after they are feeling more comfortable with the new units, HotS could be pretty sweet. Fingers crossed.
Glad they got rid of phase shield. Not a big fan of one ability that directly nullifies another ability. I prefer things like dark swarm/storm in BW, where storming over a dark swarm was really effective usually, but it's not like the purpose of storm was to just remove dark swarm.
On October 06 2012 07:16 tianGO wrote: lol so now terran has a mech swarm host? Blizzard is runnign out of ideas.
To be honest, its more comparable to the Reaver than the Swarm host. (I don't see how you jumped from Widow mines to Swarm host...)
You're both kinda right-- it seems like a mix between the reaver and swarm host in a lot of ways. It builds a projectile to fire like the reaver, but it it has to burrow and attack periodically on a timer like the swarm host.
On October 06 2012 07:20 Andr3 wrote: I feel like widow mine came "place&forget" unit. Seriously, it doesn't need any babysitting or micro to use. Just place it somewhere and let it do its thing <_<.
Want more micro oriented units..
This makes no sense. You want widow mine to be "set it and forget" but you want more micro units?
I like the Widow Mine change. It should be worth the supply it costs, not just a disposable explosive. Still hoping the Warhound will come back as an AA type mech.
Widow mine change might be interesting. I really dislike the void siphon though... It seems extremly gimmicky, what's the point? The harassment is actually pretty much none at all, besides doing damage to a building (something other units do alot better) and harassing to gain a bigger income would require alot bigger type of draine to be useful. A whole minute of draining (not doing tombs) would net 180 minerals, and that's very unlikely to happen. :s
LoL @ New oracle spell, the dps of a worker and the income of a worker.. a worker who cost gas, tech, and apms... I really dunno how they can even hope will be usefull \ fun in this way...
On October 06 2012 07:31 InVerno wrote: LoL @ New oracle spell, the dps of a worker and the income of a worker.. a worker who cost gas, tech, and apms... I really dunno how they can even hope will be usefull \ fun in this way...
about the only thing I can think of is, is that they intend it to be a micro non combat unit, so when a game essentially becomes scrappy or a stalemate that ability can come into play to help get things moving again... About the only idea I have.
On October 06 2012 07:15 Teoita wrote: I like how they have no fucking idea of what to do with the Oracle.
This, so much.
MC idea are ok although I am not sold on having it even weaker with that speed.
Oracle's new ability is a joke... 3 dps and 3 minerals? Maybe if it were for free then it could be used for some harass. I don't see how exactly it might be worth spending energy on.
I like the Widow change a lot though. And I play toss.
On October 06 2012 07:20 Andr3 wrote: I feel like widow mine came "place&forget" unit. Seriously, it doesn't need any babysitting or micro to use. Just place it somewhere and let it do its thing <_<.
Want more micro oriented units..
This makes no sense. You want widow mine to be "set it and forget" but you want more micro units?
I think he's saying that the feels the widow mine has become this "place and forget" and is criticizing that aspect of it and that he would rather have a unit that requires more micro to be effective. He said nothing about wanting it to be "place and forget."
On October 06 2012 07:20 Andr3 wrote: I feel like widow mine came "place&forget" unit. Seriously, it doesn't need any babysitting or micro to use. Just place it somewhere and let it do its thing <_<.
Want more micro oriented units..
This makes no sense. You want widow mine to be "set it and forget" but you want more micro units?
It makes sense, he's blaming blizzard for making the mine a "set it and forget unit". Imo this patch is extremely bad, the Phase Shield was a good solution to endgame PvZ, now it's the same thing again, this is stupid.
Widow mine change sounds great. Oracle change sounds...like they don't know what to do with the unit and hope this sticks.
Actually I think I do like the purify change - 60 seconds is a ton of time in PvP, it could be the difference between holding and not holding. Was the nexus version too OP? I thought the main complaints were it was coming out too early in PvT...then they didn't increase build time.
Also the "set it and forget it" quote isn't accurate at all - it's a space control unit, the space that you want to control will change over the course of the game and changing where your widow mines are will be an effective tool for controlling space, like siege tanks/swarm hosts
so they just took the ability that they were going to put on the corrupter and give it to the oracle? don't really see applications for it and even if it was good, don't like the ability
I think Blizz is being tooooooooo conservative with the Siphon. Make it do something crazy like 25mins/25dmg per second for 15 seconds and then tone it down in later patches.
So widow mine is now a cloaked, mobile missile turret with splash. Makes the missile turret kind of a variation of it. Turret just gives full detection and fires faster. Only way better than the widow mine.
On October 06 2012 06:54 juicyjames wrote: PROTOSS
Mothership Core * This unit’s Purify ability has changed. * When a player casts Purify on their Nexus, it grants the Nexus the ability to attack, no longer requiring the Core to attach itself. * The Nexus weapon has a range of 13 and a damage of 20. * Purify now lasts for 60 seconds and still costs 100 energy.
On October 06 2012 07:40 Tomasy wrote: So now you can't select which unit you want to attack with widow mine? Seems like they really want to make easier to use units for terran.
Don't think less MSC HP changes anything about the stupid Blink-All ins because it still grants vision very early but least its harass potential is dead.
On October 06 2012 07:40 Tomasy wrote: So now you can't select which unit you want to attack with widow mine? Seems like they really want to make easier to use units for terran.
I'm sure you can turn off auto casting...
* This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. * Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed.
On October 06 2012 07:40 Tomasy wrote: So now you can't select which unit you want to attack with widow mine? Seems like they really want to make easier to use units for terran.
I'm sure you can turn off auto casting...
* This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. * Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed.
On October 06 2012 07:39 Corrik wrote: So widow mine is now a cloaked, mobile missile turret with splash. Makes the missile turret kind of a variation of it. Turret just gives full detection and fires faster. Only way better than the widow mine.
I like how they're trying to make the oracle a purely harrassment unit, but this drain just seems weak and not really exciting or even affecting your opponent or his gameplay all that much.
If they have to steal a zerg ability, better to steal contaminate. Call it reverse chronoboost or summat. Then it would actually have an effect on the course of a game.
IF you can't turn off Widow mine autocast this is not really useful to be perfectly honest . Especially if it auto targets summons and halluzination . Especially with the reduced splash again.
I mean it basically kills 1 unit every 40 second and then is useless for 40 seconds. It keeps you safe from Banshees in TvT without needing an ebay but other than that ? I don't see any real potential here to be frank.
Blizz is doing complete overhaul of one unit per week Hopefully they'll visit the Oracle next week and radically change it and push it in the right direction.
The widow mine is more like a fragile, cloaked, cheap, SLOW firing siege tank now (that can hit air)... which I'm fine with!
@the guy on page 1 who said it doesn't fit the original role any more... not sure how you came to that conclusion. Its still just as much of a space controller unit, its just sustainable now. Perhaps it should no longer be called a "Mine" but that's fine, they can change that if/when they decide to keep the change for sure.
Not crazy excited about the oracle ability, but glad phase shield is gone. I wish they would try something like a fleet beacon upgraded anti-air CC spell so they can nerf vortex to ground only though, like a single target air only vortex or stasis
@ClysmiC
It doesn't target the minerals, it targets buildings, so as someone said earlier its a lot like pillage from WC3.
On October 06 2012 07:40 Tomasy wrote: So now you can't select which unit you want to attack with widow mine? Seems like they really want to make easier to use units for terran.
I'm sure you can turn off auto casting...
* This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. * Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed.
oh wow, that is really stupid then -_-
I really think they want the unit to be limited and not let terran trick people into walking into a huge field of these. Right now, they sound pretty amazing.
Widow mines are finally good. I just watched Morrow's stream some time back and his mines died every time before doing any damage even when enemy units walked right on top, so this will make them do guaranteed damage and maybe even hold an area of a map continuously. Oracle change is "I have no idea what I'm doing".
On October 06 2012 07:44 s3rp wrote: IF you can't turn off Widow mine autocast this is not really useful to be perfectly honest . Especially if it auto targets summons and halluzination . Especially with the reduced splash again.
When I read it I took it to mean you can't turn off the auto cast of the "build new missle" not the auto fire, but I'm not sure
I don't like the 'auto-acquires cloaked units' on the widow mine... unless the splash damage affects own units as well, like the siege tank does. Otherwise you can just put one Widow mine in your mineral line and be impervious to DTs forever.
On October 06 2012 07:44 s3rp wrote: IF you can't turn off Widow mine autocast this is not really useful to be perfectly honest . Especially if it auto targets summons and halluzination . Especially with the reduced splash again.
I mean it basically kills 1 unit every 40 second and then is useless for 40 seconds. It keeps you safe from Banshees in TvT without needing an ebay but other than that ? I don't see any real potential here to be frank.
Heaven forbid the cloaked, autocasting, auto detecting, range 5 aoe unit that does an AOE that would auto kill a zergling has a flaw. Also teir 2 unit.
If autocast was turned off and it allowed Terran to always get the most splash they'd probably have to nerf damage which I don't think they want to do.
Let's not crucify the unit less than an hour after these changes have come to light.
Widow mine changes make it seem actually worthwhile to get, now. We'll see if that is true in practice, I guess.
Oracle changes...wtf? When did Oracle become a freaking zerg unit? Also, even if you somehow manage to use Void Siphon for 30 seconds straight, that's 90 minerals/90 damage for 50 energy...off a unit that costs 150 gas, and comes from a 150 gas building. Like...wtf. And since it's only damaging to buildings, an SCV can literally build a turret right in front of the oracle and you can't do shit about it.
The Purify changes...just don't make a lot of sense. For one, 13 range? Really? That's way too much. Also, what was wrong with having the core have to attach to the Nexus? That was an interesting tactical choice that had to be made, but now you can cast Purify to cover your tracks as you move out with your core and still warp home if you get into trouble. I just feel like we're back to removing any risk for Protoss to move out, again. The lowered HP/Shields was definitely needed to make it more fragile on offense, but the damage of the Repulser Cannon or whatever still should be lowered, IMO.
Anyway, I guess I'm half and half on these changes, but a lot of them just seem so weird.
Hmm new widow mine seems odd but could be better for gameplay. It might need a name change though as it more seems like a turret or sentry now (both names taken already ..) Removing phase shield is good, it was a dumb ability that only promoted deathball play more. The siphon thing is not really fun though, it seems good to leach off proxy buildings though. In PvP you could theoretically harvest a proxy building indefinately if you just cast -> let shields regen -> cast i guess. I'm not sure if the ability will do much though as it basically seems like a mule in gathering speed and i don't know how long you can reliably cast it. I doubt it will survive though as it;s just too bland of an ability,
So not only will Widow mines negate harass, they ll also shoot at cloaked units without detection?
Can terran get any more convenient? Money button, flying buildings, builds that involve all buildings so you have all these options, denial of scouting, best scouting and the list goes on and on...
On October 06 2012 07:44 s3rp wrote: IF you can't turn off Widow mine autocast this is not really useful to be perfectly honest . Especially if it auto targets summons and halluzination . Especially with the reduced splash again.
When I read it I took it to mean you can't turn off the auto cast of the "build new missle" not the auto fire, but I'm not sure
* Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. * This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. * Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage.
On October 06 2012 07:44 s3rp wrote: IF you can't turn off Widow mine autocast this is not really useful to be perfectly honest . Especially if it auto targets summons and halluzination . Especially with the reduced splash again.
I mean it basically kills 1 unit every 40 second and then is useless for 40 seconds. It keeps you safe from Banshees in TvT without needing an ebay but other than that ? I don't see any real potential here to be frank.
Heaven forbid the cloaked, autocasting, auto detecting, range 5 aoe unit that does more damage than any other AOE in the game have a flaw.
No matter what thread I'm in, it's always s3rp vs Plansix.
On October 06 2012 07:47 TheBorg wrote: I don't like the 'auto-acquires cloaked units' on the widow mine... unless the splash damage affects own units as well, like the siege tank does. Otherwise you can just put one Widow mine in your mineral line and be impervious to DTs forever.
Widow mine sounds interesting, might work out... Both, oracle and mothercore changes just seem bad, the siphon especially. I think it's going to be pretty much next to useless, 50energy for a spell you can cast maybe for 10seconds to steal 30minerals during the mid-game honestly sounds like a joke. And I don't like the 13range on purify on Nexus, I'm a zerg player and perhaps my thinking is flawed, but I feel like it makes some tank - bio early pushes vs toss even less viable now (which I think is bad, cause variety of builds is always cool).
On October 06 2012 07:44 s3rp wrote: IF you can't turn off Widow mine autocast this is not really useful to be perfectly honest . Especially if it auto targets summons and halluzination . Especially with the reduced splash again.
I mean it basically kills 1 unit every 40 second and then is useless for 40 seconds. It keeps you safe from Banshees in TvT without needing an ebay but other than that ? I don't see any real potential here to be frank.
Heaven forbid the cloaked, autocasting, auto detecting, range 5 aoe unit that does an AOE that would auto kill a zergling has a flaw. Also teir 2 unit.
It's basically the first version of the Mine now without it dieng after 1 Hit but rearming for whopping 40 seconds. The first version was totally useless i don't see how it shooting every 40 seconds makes it any better ...
On October 06 2012 07:48 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Also, what was wrong with having the core have to attach to the Nexus? That was an interesting tactical choice that had to be made, but now you can cast Purify to cover your tracks as you move out with your core and still warp home if you get into trouble.
You could just focus fire the MS Core and kill it easily. Now you have to kill the Nexus.
Something about the widow mine changes i don't like is that there isn't a pause between missile launch that allows you to try to micro to mitigate damage. With the old widow mine you could try and separate the units with the widow mine on them. Also, Why can it attack cloak units if it can't see them...doesn't make much sense. And if it can see them why doesn't it reveal the cloaked unit? One of the two have to happen and I'd prefer it to be the former.
Plus the new Oracle ability is just USELESS in the whole PvZ match-up because of the queen. Blizzard did a great job at returning the ZvP to his previous state while making a useless spell that won't get casted for more than 2s.
To everyone talking about the lack of micro associated with the widow mine you are still going to want to manually target with it because they now will auto attack free units like locusts and infested terran. Plus if you are wanting to use them the most effectivley you will still want to manually target them because 5 lings reveal your whole flank defense they are totally defenseless for 40 seconds. It sounds like it will make for some interesting decisions. Do I take out that pack of Lings/chargelot with my mine or do I wait for some thing more expensive and send part of my army home?
Edit: ok I just re read the notes that is kinda dumb. What does it mean you can turn it off while unburrowed? If I turn off auto cast and burrow it does it stay off?
On October 06 2012 07:54 RoyMadman wrote: To everyone talking about the lack of micro associated with the widow mine you are still going to want to manually target with it because they now will auto attack free units like locusts and infested terran. Plus if you are wanting to use them the most effectivley you will still want to manually target them because 5 lings reveal your whole flank defense they are totally defenseless for 40 seconds. It sounds like it will make for some interesting decisions. Do I take out that pack of Lings/chargelot with my mine or do I wait for some thing more expensive and send part of my army home?
You cannot manually target if its autocast it will shoot as soon as something is in range no matter what it is.
On October 06 2012 07:44 s3rp wrote: IF you can't turn off Widow mine autocast this is not really useful to be perfectly honest . Especially if it auto targets summons and halluzination . Especially with the reduced splash again.
When I read it I took it to mean you can't turn off the auto cast of the "build new missle" not the auto fire, but I'm not sure
* Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. * This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. * Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage.
I'm pretty sure this is the attack.
Yep, you are correct. It's pretty clear now that I re-read it. Hopefully they will hear feed back from top players and change that. Once that happens I think they might have a winner for this unit from the design side... then its just down to balance tweaks on damage/cost/timing etc.
Edit: also, assuming they give players the control option of when/what it attacks, it should probably do friendly fire as well.
The only thing i'm not sure about is you might be able to turn autocast off before burrowing ( unless it reactivates automatically when burrowed ) I hope this is possible although i doubt it. Gotta see it first hand when they patch.
40 seconds sounds way too long for a reload. I personally think it'll go down to ~20 seconds with nerfed damage.
Widow mine seems overpowered- just need a factory for detection? Especially against banshee or DTs. It'll shut down pretty much any cloaked harass and a lot of zergling backstabs with the 40 dmg splash.. Oracle seems kind of odd. the siphon seems kind of stupid since I don't think it'll do much of an impact due to the oracle's fragility.. although in a PvP it could be useful as you could siphon on a forward pylon and punish them that way. And the mothership core nerf stops it harassing zerg bases early, since a queen can out dps it now. (I think). Course, I play zerg so this is all from an outside viewpoint..
On October 06 2012 08:02 s3rp wrote: Patch btw isn't on beta yet. Probably will be tomorow.
"We will be making the following updates to the beta around 3:30 PM PDT. There should be no impact on downtime, and the new balance should be in effect by your next game after 3:45 PM PDT."
Love the widow mine changes, seems to actually compliment the immobility of tanks, providing AA. Would be interesting to see whether they splash on terran units or not.
On October 06 2012 08:01 DMZ wrote: Widow mine seems overpowered- just need a factory for detection? Especially against banshee or DTs. It'll shut down pretty much any cloaked harass and a lot of zergling backstabs with the 40 dmg splash.. Oracle seems kind of odd. the siphon seems kind of stupid since I don't think it'll do much of an impact due to the oracle's fragility.. although in a PvP it could be useful as you could siphon on a forward pylon and punish them that way. And the mothership core nerf stops it harassing zerg bases early, since a queen can out dps it now. (I think). Course, I play zerg so this is all from an outside viewpoint..
I have no problem with this. Works just like the spidermine (minus it hitting air, I don't agree with that).
If you want to use DTs, get a halucination to go eat the widowmine then run your dts in, it's not difficult.
Also the zergling backstab thing is what the mine is designed to do. Without it, mech is awful at dealing with any kind of base race as you just can't get back before you lose all your bases due to the god awful map design. If tanks were stronger and you could actually defend areas with small amounts of tanks, it wouldn't be an issue.
I think the widow mines are really interesting now...I think they're moving in the right direction. I think they need to do friendly damage (if they don't already) so you can't actually defend your mineral line with one of these; this would make players have to think about positioning as well as allow units like zerglings or DTs to drag missiles into workers.
The one thing I'm worried about with the widow mine is the fact that it kind of doesn't control space outside of the early/mid-game. Right now, stalkers, colossus, immortals, marauders, tanks, thors, hydras, and blords all outrange the mines, making cleanup of them fairly easy, especially by a protoss deathball. I feel like, if indeed, we want to give terran the ability to control space, we're going to have to upgrade seige tank damage or at least let the damage upgrades scale up better. The only difficulty with this is that tanks may end up just being better than mines. We'll have to see.....
EDIT: The oracle just keeps getting odd and non-useful abilities. Just put in Phase Shift on static defenses, Blizzard! Everyone has already agreed that it's a good idea!
On October 06 2012 07:07 SarcasmMonster wrote: Rearming should cost resources but rearm much faster
That's my main criticism.
Rearm is just a bad mechanic for a mine. Also, I will now no longer be able to flood Terrans that turtle behind Widow Mines+Viking+Scan with single Zealots in order to deal with the mines..
Blegh this mineral siphon ability is silly. I know numbers can be tweaked but it is just such a silly and arbitrary ability. Requiring channeling doesn't make much sense. They really don't know what to do with this unit and at this point, I don't really have good suggestions either :/
On October 06 2012 08:06 SC2John wrote: I think the widow mines are really interesting now...I think they're moving in the right direction. I think they need to do friendly damage (if they don't already) so you can't actually defend your mineral line with one of these; this would make players have to think about positioning as well as allow units like zerglings or DTs to drag missiles into workers.
The one thing I'm worried about with the widow mine is the fact that it kind of doesn't control space outside of the early/mid-game. Right now, stalkers, colossus, immortals, marauders, tanks, thors, hydras, and blords all outrange the mines, making cleanup of them fairly easy, especially by a protoss deathball. I feel like, if indeed, we want to give terran the ability to control space, we're going to have to upgrade seige tank damage or at least let the damage upgrades scale up better. The only difficulty with this is that tanks may end up just being better than mines. We'll have to see.....
EDIT: The oracle just keeps getting odd and non-useful abilities. Just put in Phase Shift on static defenses, Blizzard! Everyone has already agreed that it's a good idea!
Widow mines SHOULDN'T be space controllers late game, but they will still slow your opponent down as they have to stop and take them out. This is basically the same late game role spider mines played in BW.
Widow mine is finally pretty sweet but please change the name of the unit it should be called something different if it doesn't blow up itself. But wtf is up with that oracle spell. seems kind of stupid like really stupid. Bring Cloaking field back plz.
Also, it kind of feels like they are going backwards with the mothership core. A 60 second timer on the nexus is definitely a long time but it's still going to encourage players to pop up with an army just to see the ability popped and then retreat to burn the core's energy.
The widow mine sounds interesting and looks nice. I like the range being ONLY 5, any more and we're having problems. Also, The oracle now goes back to being useless because the siphoning is really... wasnt that a zerg spell? becaues it seems zergy..
Hopefully they'll do something with the Viper next patch.
Good changes for Terran. Not so sure what's going on with the Oracle though. The new spell sounds like total garbage and a waste of energy. 3 damage/1 gas per second would actually be better IMO.
The new widow mine seems pretty cool. The burrow and shoot stuff mechanic seems a little to similar to the swarm host but I imagine there are enough differences between the units so they don't feel the same. Void Siphon sounds incredibly stupid and useless though. Draining minerals from a building sounds like a rejected WC3 ability.
Please someone tell me that it doesn't just target cloaked units without detection and only prioritizes cloaked units over non-cloaked ones when you have detection.
I think the widow mine should be a much faster unit, it would be fun gameplay to be able to manoeuvre and re-position them very quickly on the map rather then burrow and forget about them. A real rush defence unit would be exciting to watch too, for those "can he burrow them in time?" moments when the opponent is heading for your undefended expo or whatever.
The new widow mine actually terrifies me. It's gonna be really strong drop defense and anti-harass, and it's probably very good vs. cloak banshee or Dark templar too.
Widow mine suddenly leveled up to a warhound class unit.
Oracle basically can probe-attack buildings for spare change (33 seconds for enough minerals for a zealot)..? I really was hoping for Oracle to gain some army-combat useful spell
Mothership core change was expected and fair. It looks more like a tactical spellcaster than an early anti-ground assault blimp.
The Widow Mine needs a good 3 second burrow/unburrow time at least, now.
I see Hallucination becoming a popular spell in the near future, on the other hand. Hallucinated Probes to scout for Widow Mines! :D
I'm not sure about Void Siphon. On one hand, it steals your opponents Minerals, which is very valuable against Terran. On another hand, it takes a very long time to get a lot of Minerals, and any amount of air will shut this down, especially if said air is faster than the Oracle.
Edit: I do think that it needs a change to be more like Entomb in terms of time and strength.
I don't know I still feel like widow mines come too early.... I hope they add some sort of requirement for it, or zergs will be forced to rush to lair each game...
On October 06 2012 08:35 ferralis wrote: I don't know I still feel like widow mines come too early.... I hope they add some sort of requirement for it, or zergs will be forced to rush to lair each game...
You don't need lair, just a spore at the front of your base or some lings to kill them before they burrow.
Widow Mine sounds like it's getting to the right place, pretty cool change.
The Oracle changes keep making me rofl, I really think Blizzard has no clue what to do with the unit at all, every patch it's "Welp, that idea sucked.... lets throw a dart at the board again and try out whatever it lands on."
On October 06 2012 08:37 BeeNu wrote: Widow Mine sounds like it's getting to the right place, pretty cool change.
The Oracle changes keep making me rofl, I really think Blizzard has no clue what to do with the unit at all, every patch it's "Welp, that idea sucked.... lets throw a dart at the board again and try out whatever it lands on."
I think they were more focused on the Widow mine and the MsC. Hopefully, they buckle down and give it a useful skill next patch.
I am following many T streamers and just dont get it! Blizzard was trying to change TvT and TvP and make mech viable,but with this NEW Widow-Mine-Missile-Launcher nothing changes! How can you break siege lines with this? I see how Colossi just smash a Widow-Mine line and this 2 supply unit did nothing.Colossi are 9 range quick unit that kills all and remain safe behind support units.The Warhound was good,ofcourse it was a Mechanichal Marauder,but this is what T Mech need.The Blink and charge ability + Colossi range just smash any tank combo.Just dont work.Morrow need 50 mins to win his TvP and its so difficult...The Marauder is the Bio unit that needs the T army to counter the P army,and got no equivalent in mech.Why dont allow tanks to shoot at 9 range whithout siege mode,but doing damage only vs Armored as in siege mode?If you want the 13 Range damage,then go and research Siege mode and keep damage.Mobility is the death of mech in SC2 Detecting cloaked units its ok,but only a defense.Sitll dont break siege lines and no mech viable in TvP.
On October 06 2012 08:27 Crawdad wrote: Void Siphon doesn't outrange defensive structures, WTF? It'll be gone in a week.
But it would force defensive structures or units to be in position to defend it.
I wonder what happens in PvP when you cast it on a proxy pylon. The other player can't do a whole lot to stop it. May be the point is to reduce the number of proxy buildings.
Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored?
ok, say a widow mine fires at a unit, and the unit it is targeting gets picked up by a transport, will the missile acquire a new target or do you bypass the dmg as you can with roaches and other animated attacks?
This thing is really not very useful with 40 seconds cooldown the splash radius isn't even that big. I actually think after toying around with them they got worse now. Yeah they don't die after 1 use but the splash damage is really bad again.
U could nullify 5 widow mines with 5 lings if you know the mines are there and if u take time to do it, which is exactly how it should work :
- You have 40 lings and there is 5 mines, u know it. U start sending ling one by one
- the mines will fire their missiles unless they unburrow (since their missile is auto-cast when burrowed)
-the terran still has two options. If the Z has no detection, he can let the mines fire and hope he'll kill something later on if Z is being sloppy Or he can unburrow his mines and run to his army with them. The z cant send every ling at once to kill them or he will eat missiles at their highest damage potential. He has to send one ling on each mine
-finally for ZvT in the case of lings, it's working like a baneling
I don't know about the new widow mine. On one hand it seems to be a cool idea for a unit that I would like to see in mid- or lategame, but on the other I don't like the idea of giving terrans a cloakable unit that early on their standard tech path. That will force early detection of their opponents, even more than the possibility of banshees does now (and therefore limit opening variety). It could also possibly deny a lot of early pressure by the mere possibility that some of these mines are burrowed somewhere.
On October 06 2012 08:06 SC2John wrote: The oracle just keeps getting odd and non-useful abilities. Just put in Phase Shift on static defenses, Blizzard! Everyone has already agreed that it's a good idea!
I just fixed the Oracle - in my mind - Remember in the early alphas of WoL that the Mothership had Timebomb, which slowed time (just like the Wizard's aptly named 'Slow Time' in D3?). Oracles should be able to cast slow time bubbles that ONLY AFFECT WORKERS! Halve the move-speed of affected units, which would halve the mineral AND gas income for the duration of the bubble. And, when Terran do their infamous "bringyourSCVsfortheallin" you could even use it then.
On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote: Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored?
How are siege lines a problem? Are we even playing the same game?
So the widow mine is basically a burrowed siege tank now with a shorter range and more damage?
Not liking it at all. Why are they overlapping roles with the siege tank with this thing now. It's like they are trying everything in their power to address the problems with the siege tank without actually buffing the siege tank. It's so puzzling.
On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote: Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored?
How are siege lines a problem? Are we even playing the same game?
David Kim and DB said in actual metagame there is no way mech can break siege lines.Same amount of tanks and Marines just crush hellions/Battlehellions do to stim and higher DPS.Widow mine does not solve this issue.Just win the guy to got more marines/medivacs/tanks or caught enemy unsieged.Pure BIO with marauders still cant break sige lines because of tanks so hard counter Marauders and if enemy got double marines than you,just kill your army before touch siege tanks.Warhound was tough and got extra damage to armored.The perfect counter.Now its gone.Mines with 5 range and recharging suck vs stimmed marines+scan.
On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote: Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored?
If you are using a mine defensively, you are not going to burrow it in front of the enemy. TvT is a jawdropping MU at this point. I WISH the other MUs were as good as this.
About the only thing I don't like about the widow mine's new design is that it removes the choice of whether or not it fires/detonates. I can't speak for balance issues, but it seems to be built more as a burrow-and-forget unit, as opposed to one you can choose to unleash at any given time. I suppose that that does make it more different from a burrowed baneling, though.
It seems as though the Widow Mine is meant as a way to prevent attacks on distant bases approaching choke positions such as 'ling runbys, hidden pylons in fourth/fifth bases (DTs especially) and MMM strike forces. I just worry that this does more to hurt Zerg and Protoss versions of this tactic because their detection is not fire and forget like scans, thus requiring more resources to ultimately perform these actions. But, only time will tell if this is a short-term or a long-term change.
On October 06 2012 08:47 unteqair wrote: It's a cool change to the mine, but is there any need to build the AA turrets?
There is, one uber shot every 40 seconds probably isn't good enough AA. Lead with one muta and you're golden for harass. If there's a travel time (there should be), leading with one unit will cause all the mines in range to launch at it.
I still rather wish they had kept phase shift, even though you can block mining with entomb and then drain their minerals now. I can kinda understand taking away widow mine autocast turn off for no more focus fire since it's kinda like hold lurkers or allied mines.
Oracle changes are laughable. Why is an ability that was deemed useless for zerg suddenly worthwhile for protoss? Give the oracle something cool. Not a tickle beam that costs energy.
On October 06 2012 08:57 SnipedSoul wrote: Widow mine is cool. Void siphon only looks useful for base trades.
You floating command centers? I'm gonna siphon you to death and get my production up and going xD
On October 06 2012 08:59 Vindicare605 wrote: So the widow mine is basically a burrowed siege tank now with a shorter range and more damage?
Not liking it at all. Why are they overlapping roles with the siege tank with this thing now. It's like they are trying everything in their power to address the problems with the siege tank without actually buffing the siege tank. It's so puzzling.
Basically, the marauder is a marine with more HP, but with less dps.. I don't get why we do these kind of comparisons, it's pointless.
Why they are overlapping roles? Yes, they control space, but they do that completely different ways. With the siege tanks, you can siege opponents from afar and force them to either engage you/re-position their armies, because they will get smashed if they don't. The widow mine doesn't do that. I think blizzard wants them to kinda fulfill the role of a spider mine, but in a different way, because they seem to be reluctant to re-introduce copy-pasted old units.
I agree that the siege tank could get some love though XD
I thought they would make the window mine like a minefield layer But, watching Pride's stream now, it seems interesting !
I agree with other posters that the widow mine now seems pretty much like a portable missle turret. It also seems like it will be a lot more useful against zerg than it would be against toss. zerglings and IT's will be massacred just by the splash damage, whereas a group of zealots can run by and still be effective. My other concern is, what will be the counter to this other than sacrificing a unit to gain a window of time to run by and/or kill it.
On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote: Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored?
If you are using a mine defensively, you are not going to burrow it in front of the enemy. TvT is a jawdropping MU at this point. I WISH the other MUs were as good as this.
TvT good? If you dont go for Marine/Tank its almost impossible to win.THIS call you GOOD?I wish pure BIO and MECH could beat this,but for now BIO its pretty difficult when turret rings are made,preventing drops,and mech with those funsuicidehellions just suck.So we got every TvT minimum 30 mins looking for a hole in your enemys siege line or catch him moving.Come on,really?This is good?
Protoss can go Colossi or HT or both of them+Archons.Ton of Splash late game.Only their Air doesn work,but maybe and Blizzard tries to make it good with Carrier back,Oracle and ofc Tempest.If they succes maybe in future Protoss can go pure StarGate and win every MU.
Zerg is the best.Ling+Infestor into Ultras kills all.Ling+bane+Muta kills T.Ling+Infestor+BL kill Protoss.Roach+Ling kill Protoss.Roach+Hydra+Corruptor good vs P.Now they got Ultra Burrow Charge making Ultras even better.Swarm Host is their new siege unit,and guess what?Viper just make tanks useless.Zerg got EVERYTHING.They can choose how to play in every MU.Other raices dont.
I want to play T and be able to choose Strategies before MU and just dont die because tank suck vs P
On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote: Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored?
How are siege lines a problem? Are we even playing the same game?
David Kim and DB said in actual metagame there is no way mech can break siege lines.Same amount of tanks and Marines just crush hellions/Battlehellions do to stim and higher DPS.Widow mine does not solve this issue.Just win the guy to got more marines/medivacs/tanks or caught enemy unsieged.Pure BIO with marauders still cant break sige lines because of tanks so hard counter Marauders and if enemy got double marines than you,just kill your army before touch siege tanks.Warhound was tough and got extra damage to armored.The perfect counter.Now its gone.Mines with 5 range and recharging suck vs stimmed marines+scan.
Dont you think its the same game?
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
In all seriousness, I read what you wrote, and I have no idea at all what you are trying to say, it's completely illegible. This isn't right, this isn't even wrong. Could you try to edit that so that it's actually legible? Because honestly, I really did want to read what you had to say.
On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote: Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored?
If you are using a mine defensively, you are not going to burrow it in front of the enemy. TvT is a jawdropping MU at this point. I WISH the other MUs were as good as this.
TvT good? If you dont go for Marine/Tank its almost impossible to win.THIS call you GOOD?I wish pure BIO and MECH could beat this,but for now BIO its pretty difficult when turret rings are made,preventing drops,and mech with those funsuicidehellions just suck.So we got every TvT minimum 30 mins looking for a hole in your enemys siege line or catch him moving.Come on,really?This is good?
Protoss can go Colossi or HT or both of them+Archons.Ton of Splash late game.Only their Air doesn work,but maybe and Blizzard tries to make it good with Carrier back,Oracle and ofc Tempest.If they succes maybe in future Protoss can go pure StarGate and win every MU.
Zerg is the best.Ling+Infestor into Ultras kills all.Ling+bane+Muta kills T.Ling+Infestor+BL kill Protoss.Roach+Ling kill Protoss.Roach+Hydra+Corruptor good vs P.Now they got Ultra Burrow Charge making Ultras even better.Swarm Host is their new siege unit,and guess what?Viper just make tanks useless.Zerg got EVERYTHING.They can choose how to play in every MU.Other raices dont.
I want to play T and be able to choose Strategies before MU and just dont die because tank suck vs P
Bio tank is the direct response to bio. You play bio mech when you were playing bio but your opponent also went bio, because mixing tanks in makes your army much more powerful in an engagement. At the high level, we see mech play vs. bio all the time and it's amazing to watch. Bio vs. Bio invariably turns into bio/mech vs. bio/mech because pure bio vs pure bio is stupid. We do see occasionally mech vs. mech, but it's rare. But pure bio vs. pure mech games do show up at the high level.
TvT is without a doubt the most interesting mirror matchup in terms of strategy, tactics, and play. It is the most forgiving and least likely to end with a single easy mistake, and features the most variance in strategies and tactics, along with the most interesting positioning play. TvT right now is AWESOME.
I just tested all the changes in game, first impressions: 1) protoss - new mothership core is better then previous one, but those changes doesn't fix anything at all. Nerfing from 100hp/100shield to 60/130 made it even better for early game harras because you can pull out and regen more shield. New purify is nice, but it doesnt change anything about 2 zaelot + msc push. - new oracle ability is COMPLETE and useless crap. Yes, it does give you +3 minerals each time it ticks, but it's meanginless. The dmg the skill does it just lol, and the range is short.Terrible, terrible ability.
2) terran - new widow mine is really really strong, at the current state I think they should reinstate armory requirement back into the game. I dont think the re-arming will stick into retail though, unless they adjust few other things (cost, tech path).
Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote: Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection.
On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote: Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection.
Was never the case. You could turn off autofire ....
On October 06 2012 09:24 Cracy wrote: You've got to be kidding me...
I can't use my custom hotkey's anymore...
I had build probe on A. And attack on A. Now the Nexus has attack ability so i can't use it for both.
For f*** sake. How stupid is that.
Sup bw protoss had pylon and probe on 'P'.
On October 06 2012 09:25 Cloak wrote: The Siphon spell makes Entomb look good.
On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote: Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored?
How are siege lines a problem? Are we even playing the same game?
David Kim and DB said in actual metagame there is no way mech can break siege lines.Same amount of tanks and Marines just crush hellions/Battlehellions do to stim and higher DPS.Widow mine does not solve this issue.Just win the guy to got more marines/medivacs/tanks or caught enemy unsieged.Pure BIO with marauders still cant break sige lines because of tanks so hard counter Marauders and if enemy got double marines than you,just kill your army before touch siege tanks.Warhound was tough and got extra damage to armored.The perfect counter.Now its gone.Mines with 5 range and recharging suck vs stimmed marines+scan.
Dont you think its the same game?
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
In all seriousness, I read what you wrote, and I have no idea at all what you are trying to say, it's completely illegible. This isn't right, this isn't even wrong. Could you try to edit that so that it's actually legible? Because honestly, I really did want to read what you had to say.
I am trying to say that removing Warhounds and changing Widow Mine to its actual state its not what Blizzard was trying to do. Mech need a Marauder from Factory to be able to break siege lines OR Widow mine with 14 range to counter mass marine+siege tanks. As you said players are forced to go for siege tanks to get advantege in terms of DPS,but it forces them to stop making marauders and we reach again the Marine+Tank. I dont find Bio vs Bio stupid. Are baneling wars stupid? PvP 4gate stupid? What i find stupid is 14 tanks and 70 marines not moving because in front are 12 tanks and 90 marines waiting.So we got 50 mins long game scanning,stimming and unsieging till Death because of Boring...
So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work?
On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote: Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection.
And how does that change anything it's not like detection wasn't used .... There's allways a Overseers or Observers floating around. Not to mention the 40 second delay is so incredibly long that you can still use 1 unit to move in front to check out where mines are and then walk over and or clean it up.
On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote: Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection.
Was never the case. You could turn off autofire ....
Hey man, if you build 5 oracles and void siphon a completely undefended building and your opponent manages to completely not see it at all, you could build an extra zealot every 7 seconds! That's a big deal in the late game.... Oh wait, no it isn't, and if you build 5 oracles you die.
The Widow Mine changes sound interesting for TvZ, but I don't think it will have much of an impact in TvP or TvT.
Stalker+Obs will slay an infinite number of Widow Mines at 6 range vs immobile 5 range. Or any Stargate unit. What happens when a Phoenix lifts a Widow Mine now?
I guess this change will force more scans in TvT, but honestly, we already scan a lot in TvT so it won't be much of a change.
I don't understand why they're bring back the Corruptor's mineral suck and giving it to the Oracle. That idea is kinda the Viper's now, its less cool if Protoss have something similar.
I don't see it working for Protoss anyway; when was the last time you saw a Protoss really need some minerals? All they can spend it on is Gateways, Zealots, and Interceptors(lol). Do we really want to encourage lategame mass warpin even more? 3 minerals/sec is equal to about 4.5 workers mining close patches. Not bad for a 3 supply unit but I'm not sure if its worth the hassle of bouncing it between shielded buildings when Protoss don't do the same thing for Void Rays.
Void Siphon might be a dumb spell, but it will put some light pressure on anyone who is careless with building undefended buildings. If one or more oracles kill off a Pylon using Void Syphon, then the owner loses 400 minerals extra for a total of 500m, that´s a LOT for a forward pylon.
On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote: So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work?
congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol
On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote: Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection.
And how does that change anything it's not like detection wasn't used .... There's allways a Overseers or Observers floating around. Not to mention the 40 second delay is so incredibly long that you can still use 1 unit to move in front to check out where mines are and then walk over and or clean it up.
It makes the unit potentially a lot more cost efficient. Now if you put 3-4 of them in one location to lock it down (stagger them a little), your enemy needs a pretty serious effort to get past, and they can hold off multiple waves, rather than going off to single zerglings then doing nothing.
A mine that sits in your base, then kills a drop will still be guarding that location. They can actually be used as mobile turrets or missile platforms if you really want to use them that way.
On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote: Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection.
And how does that change anything it's not like detection wasn't used .... There's allways a Overseers or Observers floating around. Not to mention the 40 second delay is so incredibly long that you can still use 1 unit to move in front to check out where mines are and then walk over and or clean it up.
It makes the unit potentially a lot more cost efficient. Now if you put 3-4 of them in one location to lock it down (stagger them a little), your enemy needs a pretty serious effort to get past, and they can hold off multiple waves, rather than going off to single zerglings then doing nothing.
A mine that sits in your base, then kills a drop will still be guarding that location. They can actually be used as mobile turrets or missile platforms if you really want to use them that way.
The reduced the splash so much that the only thing is kills are Lings and the splash radius is NOT very big. Like i said its nice early game ( which it was before ) but still useless later . As base defense you will have a turret ring anyway ( at least you should ) . And with the 40 second delay it doesn't help to secure from flanks any better than it did before.
On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote: So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work?
congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol
On October 06 2012 09:33 RoboBob wrote: The Widow Mine changes sound interesting for TvZ, but I don't think it will have much of an impact in TvP or TvT.
Stalker+Obs will slay an infinite number of Widow Mines at 6 range vs immobile 5 range. Or any Stargate unit. What happens when a Phoenix lifts a Widow Mine now?
I guess this change will force more scans in TvT, but honestly, we already scan a lot in TvT so it won't be much of a change.
I don't understand why they're bring back the Corruptor's mineral suck and giving it to the Oracle. That idea is kinda the Viper's now, its less cool if Protoss have something similar.
I don't see it working for Protoss anyway; when was the last time you saw a Protoss really need some minerals? All they can spend it on is Gateways, Zealots, and Interceptors(lol). Do we really want to encourage lategame mass warpin even more? 3 minerals/sec is equal to about 4.5 workers mining close patches. Not bad for a 3 supply unit but I'm not sure if its worth the hassle of bouncing it between shielded buildings when Protoss don't do the same thing for Void Rays.
Phoenix grav lift range is less than the 5 launch range, so that's kind of a non-issue.
Yeah, stalker + obs with careful control and attention can break the field, but that's not different from before, but now the mines can more easily handle zealot waves and warp prism harass. Plus, you know, if you fly a viking or two over and snipe the obs, he won't just suicide a zealot in to kill the mines he's found and then move past.
On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote: Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection.
And how does that change anything it's not like detection wasn't used .... There's allways a Overseers or Observers floating around. Not to mention the 40 second delay is so incredibly long that you can still use 1 unit to move in front to check out where mines are and then walk over and or clean it up.
It makes the unit potentially a lot more cost efficient. Now if you put 3-4 of them in one location to lock it down (stagger them a little), your enemy needs a pretty serious effort to get past, and they can hold off multiple waves, rather than going off to single zerglings then doing nothing.
A mine that sits in your base, then kills a drop will still be guarding that location. They can actually be used as mobile turrets or missile platforms if you really want to use them that way.
The reduced the splash so much that the only thing is kills are Lings and the splash radius is NOT very big.
Pride is making the unit look overpowered in practice...
Of course it's still too early to say if it needs a nerf or not.
On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote: Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection.
And how does that change anything it's not like detection wasn't used .... There's allways a Overseers or Observers floating around. Not to mention the 40 second delay is so incredibly long that you can still use 1 unit to move in front to check out where mines are and then walk over and or clean it up.
It makes the unit potentially a lot more cost efficient. Now if you put 3-4 of them in one location to lock it down (stagger them a little), your enemy needs a pretty serious effort to get past, and they can hold off multiple waves, rather than going off to single zerglings then doing nothing.
A mine that sits in your base, then kills a drop will still be guarding that location. They can actually be used as mobile turrets or missile platforms if you really want to use them that way.
The reduced the splash so much that the only thing is kills are Lings and the splash radius is NOT very big.
I'm aware of that, but do you think it's fair for 8 supply to hold off 40-50? The initial missile hit deals 160 damage, that's a shit ton of damage.
On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote: So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work?
congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol
Killing a Pylon with an Oracle will take a little while, but the opponent will lose a pylon for 100m, lose 400m stolen, and you will gain 400m of his. In total you deal/gain 900m of damage for a single proxy pylon. I think it´s worth building a few Oracles for that. With Entomb and Void Siphon, you can deal quite a bit of economic damage.
On October 06 2012 09:34 Qikz wrote: Mech can beat siege lines... You just need the vision advantage, some thors mixed in and slow tank pushing.
Really? I need a replay to believe this. So,you are saying that Tanks+Thors+maybe Hellions,can beat Tank+Marine? Then why no Progamers go for this Mech play? They all end going for Tank+Marines because is the best.No option fot TvT for now.Maybe its the best MU or maybe not,but in terms of choices is sucks
On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote: So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work?
congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol
On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote: So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work?
congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol
Killing a Pylon with an Oracle will take a little while, but the opponent will lose a pylon for 100m, lose 400m stolen, and you will gain 400m of his. In total you deal/gain 900m of damage for a single proxy pylon. I think it´s worth building a few Oracles for that. With Entomb and Void Siphon, you can deal quite a bit of economic damage.
it doesn't steal minerals. (nothing in the patch notes indicates it does)
Question for clarification: When you use void siphon, does the opponent lose the minerals? Do you gain minerals if you target your own buildings, or is it net even?
On October 06 2012 09:34 Qikz wrote: Mech can beat siege lines... You just need the vision advantage, some thors mixed in and slow tank pushing.
Really? I need a replay to believe this. So,you are saying that Tanks+Thors+maybe Hellions,can beat Tank+Marine? Then why no Progamers go for this Mech play? They all end going for Tank+Marines because is the best.No option fot TvT for now.Maybe its the best MU or maybe not,but in terms of choices is sucks
Um, they do, you need to watch the GSL occasionally. Pure mech play has become fairly common at the highest levels. It doesn't usually wind up being bio/tank vs. mech because you only add tanks as the bio player if your opponent is also going for bio. Pure bio vs. mech is better than bio/tank vs. mech.
Tank marine is what you build when you started with bio, but your opponent also went bio. You add tanks because it adds a lot of muscle to your composition, pure bio vs. bio is awful. If your opponent is pure mech, you stay pure bio. Tank marine vs. mech is just idiotic, you give up your biggest advantage (mobility) to try to outmuscle a composition that quite simply has a lot more muscle. Pure mech has no problem breaking a marine/tank composition. Upgraded blue flame hellions with tanks behind absolutely smash marine/tank.
Just as an example game that's quite recent would be game 1 of Bomber vs. Baby in code A round 1 day3. Bomber builds up a pure mech composition and his opponent goes bio, Bomber winds up winning the game.
As we mentioned last week, our main focus this week was redesigning the Widow Mine and replacing the Oracle’s Phase Shield ability. We made quite a few changes to these units that we’ll get to in the paragraphs below, but first we wanted to talk about a few Mothership Core changes. We heard your concerns regarding last week’s changes and have made a few additional Mothership Core tuning passes to help make it a stronger defensive option while using Purify but slightly weaker offensively. Thanks again for all the feedback on the Mothership Core; now let’s dig into the Phase Shield and Widow Mine changes.
The Phase Shield ability is great against Fungal Growth, but because it’s used in such limited circumstances, it’s not all that appealing in most games. As it stands, the Oracle is a harassment caster that only goes for the enemy mineral line, but we thought it would be fun to add a secondary harassment ability that’s not aimed at the mineral line which harasses opponents in a brand new way. The Oracle’s new ability, Void Siphon, allows it to harvest minerals by attacking enemy structures. We’re hoping that this change will open the door for some new harassment options to complement those already in Starcraft II.
For the Widow Mine, we wanted to make a few updates to achieve the following goals:
Make the Widow Mine into an actual cloaked threat.
Make the Widow Mine into a powerful piece that players can revolve strategies around.
Make the Widow Mine into a unit opponents fear, forcing them to react accordingly when Terran players bring them out.
In order to go further in this direction, we’re trying a version of the Widow Mine that doesn’t self-destruct to attack. The updated Widow Mine will be used much in the same way as it is now, but the main difference is that instead of blowing up it shoots a missile, remains cloaked, and rebuilds another missile for later use. Because Widow Mines no longer self-destruct, opponents will have to react accordingly when they’re in play. After the changes, this unit is very different from any unit we’ve had in the past, so we fully anticipate that it will need a lot of testing.
Please remember that the numbers are not final and may require multiple tuning passes. While we want to try to push these new designs as much as we can, the new roles are not set in stone, so we encourage you to spend as much time as you can testing out the new changes and give us your feedback. We hope to work towards creating exciting new units and abilities for every race in Heart of the Swarm!
Here are my thoughts. Because I know someone asked.
1) How is the widow mine still defined as a mine? It doesn't act in a way that I've ever associated with a mine. Also 40 splash seems like a lot..
2)Void Siphon, basically just lol, can it target floating CC's? Why would I want 3/ min a second and possibly use a gas unit instead of making 1 more probe..I like the idea of $ for damage..but i think this is going to be a gimmick unit unless we get more $$, also, why not gas? PS, does this take from their mineral patches or does it actually increase the total minerals that can be 'mined' from the map?
3) I'm not feeling like HotS is feeling like an actual new expansion (is it gonna be $60?) it feels like a UMS with some quirky units. Am I the only one who feels like this?
On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote: So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work?
congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol
Except you do it indefinitely all game.....?
who's going to let you...?
I think you missed the part where the pylon is in your base. Just guard your ramp.
On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote: So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work?
congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol
Except you do it indefinitely all game.....?
In which case, congrats you've spent 150/150 plus whatever's guarding it to "mine" at the rate of less than 2 workers.
So with the newly designed mine. Can anyone with beta tell me if
-Splash hits friendly units -Able to hit enemy workers -Supply cost ( I've read somewhere they changed it? ) -Speed of missle. Are they like Seeker Missle where you may outrun it or do they kill units immediately?
So the widow mine is like a tank in siege mode... Except its cloaked and hits ground air and cloaked units with its slow attackspeed.... It doesnt even require micro to maximize its usefulness! Just sit there and itl take care of ground air cloaked any unit nearby...
Also, does anyone else think terrans have enough splash damage? Hellions thors tanks seekermissile nukes planetaries... Versus fungals banes and ultras or collo storm and archons.
On October 06 2012 09:33 beefhamburger wrote: So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work?
congratulations, you just wasted 150 gas for perhaps the same amount of minerals. lol
Killing a Pylon with an Oracle will take a little while, but the opponent will lose a pylon for 100m, lose 400m stolen, and you will gain 400m of his. In total you deal/gain 900m of damage for a single proxy pylon. I think it´s worth building a few Oracles for that. With Entomb and Void Siphon, you can deal quite a bit of economic damage.
it doesn't steal minerals. (nothing in the patch notes indicates it does)
On October 06 2012 06:54 juicyjames wrote:
The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and drains 3 minerals every second until canceled.
Drains, sounds like it either you gain minerals, or the opponent loses minerals, or both.
The Mine change seems like a unit replacement instead. (more like it Mobile Missile Turret) I am fine with that, but yes, will need more rebalancing for sure.
so it basically only auto-acquire cloaked / hallunicated units?
wouldn't that just make the DT useless against Terrans instead?
So far, I think it is a poor choice. But I think the community will find that out soon as well. dont see this unit last more than 2 weeks
Just saw AVILO did mortal 10 min push with Mines+hellions+Tanks vs Protoss.Mines are now little Siege tanks.If u supporte them with tanks and some hellions they work well in early-mid game.Havent seen them in late game,but think they still suck because of observers and Colossi clearing the field allowing Chargelots to kill your tanks as well as blink Stalkers
On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote: Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection.
And how does that change anything it's not like detection wasn't used .... There's allways a Overseers or Observers floating around. Not to mention the 40 second delay is so incredibly long that you can still use 1 unit to move in front to check out where mines are and then walk over and or clean it up.
It makes the unit potentially a lot more cost efficient. Now if you put 3-4 of them in one location to lock it down (stagger them a little), your enemy needs a pretty serious effort to get past, and they can hold off multiple waves, rather than going off to single zerglings then doing nothing.
A mine that sits in your base, then kills a drop will still be guarding that location. They can actually be used as mobile turrets or missile platforms if you really want to use them that way.
The reduced the splash so much that the only thing is kills are Lings and the splash radius is NOT very big.
I'm aware of that, but do you think it's fair for 8 supply to hold off 40-50? The initial missile hit deals 160 damage, that's a shit ton of damage.
I think the initial damage is way too much is should live of it's splash. Terran doesn't need anything with high damage .
On October 06 2012 09:45 jidolboy wrote: So with the newly designed mine. Can anyone with beta tell me if
-Splash hits friendly units -Able to hit enemy workers -Supply cost ( I've read somewhere they changed it? ) -Speed of missle. Are they like Seeker Missle where you may outrun it or do they kill units immediately?
Yes , Yes , still 2 , no once it's launched it will hit the target.
What if we gave it all splash damage but instead of building them out of the factory, hellions came with a few of them? And they had really twitchy AI that lead to really exciting moments.
On October 06 2012 09:46 cywinr wrote: So the widow mine is like a tank in siege mode... Except its cloaked and hits ground air and cloaked units with its slow attackspeed.... It doesnt even require micro to maximize its usefulness! Just sit there and itl take care of ground air cloaked any unit nearby...
Also, does anyone else think terrans have enough splash damage? Hellions thors tanks seekermissile nukes planetaries... Versus fungals banes and ultras or collo storm and archons.
Collosi,storms and Archons move pretty quick on Battlefield.Hellions dies too quick to all this stuff.Tanks dont move.Seekermissile is almost useless and far too expensive even for late game.Nukes...Have you seen Nukes since the ultimate ghost nerf with this cloak for 30s???And ofcourse PF are flying unit doing splash damage hehe...
Banelings are faster than every T unit if not stimmed Marine ir Marauder.Fungal makes units dont move so,banelings get their goal.Ultras got Burrow Charge and avoid totaly tank splash. Just go for Thors vs P or Z and you will see how BL,Ultras eat them and HTs "suicide" them hehe
The Widow Mine change is good and the MSC change is okay. Void Siphon sounds lame, although I have to wonder if it's a matter of tuning rather than design. At 3 minerals per second it takes 50 seconds just to recover 150 minerals. Even against a completely naked expansion, you could build a turret in 25 sec, a spore in 30 sec, or a photon in 40 sec, so the Oracle will never turn a profit. Siphoning a proxy Pylon doesn't work either, by the time Oracles are out the other guy has Warpgates and will just warp in stalkers.
I think Siphon might be a useful ability if it was tuned differently. It fits with the Oracle's design (economic harassment unit that doesn't belong in deathballs) much better than Phase Shield, which encouraged oracles to join the deathball. Siphon needs to actually steal minerals, not just generate minerals out of nowhere. If it remains a slow-acting ability then it shouldn't cost energy, it could even be the Oracle's a-move. If it remains an energy-dependent spell then it needs to act very rapidly, forcing opponents to get enough antiair to rapidly kill the Oracle instead of just guarding a CC with one marine. (1 stimmarine will kill an Oracle in 15 seconds, far less than its break-even time)
In which case, congrats you've spent 150/150 plus whatever's guarding it to "mine" at the rate of less than 2 workers.
Last time I checked, a probe on a close mineral patch harvests 45 minerals/minute which is 0.75 m/s. So at 3 m/s the Oracle "harvests" at the same rate as 4 probes, slightly better than 1 MULE.
4 probes cost 200/0/4 and can keep mining all day, so long as you have bases with minerals in them. 1 Oracle costs 150/150/3, is almost as fragile as 4 probes but has to harvest from ENEMY bases. Oh yeah, and it has to spend 50 energy every time it Siphons.
Not a very useful ability right now, but it's a matter of tuning and not design.
On October 06 2012 09:46 cywinr wrote: So the widow mine is like a tank in siege mode... Except its cloaked and hits ground air and cloaked units with its slow attackspeed.... It doesnt even require micro to maximize its usefulness! Just sit there and itl take care of ground air cloaked any unit nearby...
Also, does anyone else think terrans have enough splash damage? Hellions thors tanks seekermissile nukes planetaries... Versus fungals banes and ultras or collo storm and archons.
Collosi,storms and Archons move pretty quick on Battlefield.Hellions dies too quick to all this stuff.Tanks dont move.Seekermissile is almost useless and far too expensive even for late game.Nukes...Have you seen Nukes since the ultimate ghost nerf with this cloak for 30s???And ofcourse PF are flying unit doing splash damage hehe...
Banelings are faster than every T unit if not stimmed Marine ir Marauder.Fungal makes units dont move so,banelings get their goal.Ultras got Burrow Charge and avoid totaly tank splash. Just go for Thors vs P or Z and you will see how BL,Ultras eat them and HTs "suicide" them hehe
I might be able to take you more seriously if your name weren't an anagram for drivel and if you took the time to actually make it possible to understand what you're trying to say.
On October 06 2012 09:46 cywinr wrote: So the widow mine is like a tank in siege mode... Except its cloaked and hits ground air and cloaked units with its slow attackspeed.... It doesnt even require micro to maximize its usefulness! Just sit there and itl take care of ground air cloaked any unit nearby...
Also, does anyone else think terrans have enough splash damage? Hellions thors tanks seekermissile nukes planetaries... Versus fungals banes and ultras or collo storm and archons.
Collosi,storms and Archons move pretty quick on Battlefield.Hellions dies too quick to all this stuff.Tanks dont move.Seekermissile is almost useless and far too expensive even for late game.Nukes...Have you seen Nukes since the ultimate ghost nerf with this cloak for 30s???And ofcourse PF are flying unit doing splash damage hehe...
Banelings are faster than every T unit if not stimmed Marine ir Marauder.Fungal makes units dont move so,banelings get their goal.Ultras got Burrow Charge and avoid totaly tank splash. Just go for Thors vs P or Z and you will see how BL,Ultras eat them and HTs "suicide" them hehe
I might be able to take you more seriously if your name weren't an anagram for drivel and if you took the time to actually make it possible to understand what you're trying to say.
My English is not so good obviously,and I really try to make it possible to understand.I was trying to say that even if Terran got more Splash Options,it does not mean they all are viable or good to use in the game.
My name is "Duriel" but written as in old Rome where the "U" was same as "V",ok? Duriel is a Demon from Diablo II...
Not sure about the widow mine but glad phase shield was removed. I liked the idea of a defensive ability but I think they put it on the wrong unit and shouldn't be a cast-before-they-cast. I'd rather it be a reactionary spell; something similar to restoration on medics in Broodwar.
Also seemed really weird being on the Oracle when the Oracle is a fast moving 'harass' unit, not really sitting in your army. So I'd rather phase shield have been on the sentry and given the Oracle hallucination or some form of halluction (like clone itself or something). Void siphon.. doesn't fit much either as you have to sit there to do anything and the Oracle is meant to dart around not sit there being immobile.
If they keep the "mine" like this, they should at least rename it....a mine is something else then a rocket turret. In a way it get's to be a moveable turret with extrem high damage, that's got it's cost amortised once one (!!) shot has been fired...
On October 06 2012 10:10 testthewest wrote: If they keep the "mine" like this, they should at least rename it....a mine is something else then a rocket turret. In a way it get's to be a moveable turret with extrem high damage, that's got it's cost amortised once one (!!) shot has been fired...
I would call it "Ant lion" because it plays along the theme of Spiders and only attacks when burrowed.
Oracle can have some pretty neat application. Gives the protoss a spell that can get them some minerals in low worker counts, or what im more worried about, using a couple early on to supress a zergs minerals for remaxing. But after considering that zergs usually have a mineral bank and queens, its probably not a huge deal at all.
And i love the mine It may be a bit strong but it seems like a unit that can really hold space well, which is what the intent was in the first place.
I want to confirm that Void Siphon does not remove minerals from an opponent's bank; it harvests minerals from an enemy structure while damaging it. We've updated the text to make this clear.
like all changes. esp. protoss. Oracle seems much more interesting harrasment wise because you can decide if you want to do the risky/microintensive harras or the entomb shift click harras. I hope the first one will be more rewarding. Maybe its a bit too much energy as you cant cast it very frequently while moving around. I would not mind a price increase of the oracle if that would make that possible. I dont like the grafic animation though.
Nexus shooting animation also does not look nice imo.
Wait what?! The Widow Mine gets a mini-nuke? Also swarm hosts vs Widow Mines is going to be bonkers now. Going to be a wave of 'zombies' getting nuked and then again, over and over. Appealing eye candy but free vs free just sounds boring strategically.
In which case, congrats you've spent 150/150 plus whatever's guarding it to "mine" at the rate of less than 2 workers.
Last time I checked, a probe on a close mineral patch harvests 45 minerals/minute which is 0.75 m/s. So at 3 m/s the Oracle "harvests" at the same rate as 4 probes, slightly better than 1 MULE.
You have to let the pylon recharge its shields, though, which is what reduces the income over a long time.
On October 06 2012 07:44 s3rp wrote: IF you can't turn off Widow mine autocast this is not really useful to be perfectly honest . Especially if it auto targets summons and halluzination . Especially with the reduced splash again.
I mean it basically kills 1 unit every 40 second and then is useless for 40 seconds. It keeps you safe from Banshees in TvT without needing an ebay but other than that ? I don't see any real potential here to be frank.
Heaven forbid the cloaked, autocasting, auto detecting, range 5 aoe unit that does more damage than any other AOE in the game have a flaw.
No matter what thread I'm in, it's always s3rp vs Plansix.
I'll start keeping score.
I like to feel our arguments are at least based in reality. Even though we disagree, S3rp is rational and does not make insane arguments.
On a side note does 3 minerals a second sound like a lot to some people. I mean, its only 5 per work, per trip. What is the math on two of those digging into a building?
On October 06 2012 07:44 s3rp wrote: IF you can't turn off Widow mine autocast this is not really useful to be perfectly honest . Especially if it auto targets summons and halluzination . Especially with the reduced splash again.
I mean it basically kills 1 unit every 40 second and then is useless for 40 seconds. It keeps you safe from Banshees in TvT without needing an ebay but other than that ? I don't see any real potential here to be frank.
Heaven forbid the cloaked, autocasting, auto detecting, range 5 aoe unit that does more damage than any other AOE in the game have a flaw.
No matter what thread I'm in, it's always s3rp vs Plansix.
I'll start keeping score.
I like to feel our arguments are at least based in reality. Even though we disagree, S3rp is rational and does not make insane arguments.
On a side note does 3 minerals a second sound like a lot to some people. I mean, its only 5 per work, per trip. What is the math on two of those digging into a building?
If you had 2 it'd be 360 mins a minute, roughly the same rate of return as 9 workers?
On October 06 2012 09:46 cywinr wrote: So the widow mine is like a tank in siege mode... Except its cloaked and hits ground air and cloaked units with its slow attackspeed.... It doesnt even require micro to maximize its usefulness! Just sit there and itl take care of ground air cloaked any unit nearby...
Also, does anyone else think terrans have enough splash damage? Hellions thors tanks seekermissile nukes planetaries... Versus fungals banes and ultras or collo storm and archons.
Terran can't micro it. That sounds like it doesn't have maximized damage and you can lure shots with a little micro and go kill it afterwards. Way better than if Terran could wait until he hits all your lingies.
On October 06 2012 09:46 cywinr wrote: So the widow mine is like a tank in siege mode... Except its cloaked and hits ground air and cloaked units with its slow attackspeed.... It doesnt even require micro to maximize its usefulness! Just sit there and itl take care of ground air cloaked any unit nearby...
Also, does anyone else think terrans have enough splash damage? Hellions thors tanks seekermissile nukes planetaries... Versus fungals banes and ultras or collo storm and archons.
Terran can't micro it. That sounds like it doesn't have maximized damage and you can lure shots with a little micro and go kill it afterwards. Way better than if Terran could wait until he hits all your lingies.
yes you can, you can disable the autocast before you burrow it
On October 06 2012 10:14 Burns wrote: Im wtfing at the screen, i have no clue whats going on
is the widow mine a mobile turret now?
Not really. I saw a stream of it just now. It´s very slow to rearm, so not really a tower, but very good for base defence and holding a contain. They have terrible, terrible burst damage, then a 40s rearm, so widow mines fit any battle where you have something alive afterwards, or where the enemy doesn´t have detection.
So if the Terran puts 1 mine in front of his base I can't ever sneak in with dts? Like ever? Even observers can retreat from turret fire if they have been hit once. A turret is one thing but an automated mine that sees and targets cloaked...
On October 06 2012 10:44 CikaZombi wrote: So if the Terran puts 1 mine in front of his base I can't ever sneak in with dts? Like ever? Even observers can retreat from turret fire if they have been hit once. A turret is one thing but an automated mine that sees and targets cloaked...
widow mines cost 2 supply, there was no way they could have remained a suicide unit. I think with the way they are now, it's a lot easier to balance, they could bump them up to 3 supply now since they are basically terran locusts.
MsC change is good, oracle? I'm not so certain, I felt like the oracle had more use as an anti-fungal machine but we shall see where they take it.
On October 06 2012 10:26 Plansix wrote: On a side note does 3 minerals a second sound like a lot to some people. I mean, its only 5 per work, per trip. What is the math on two of those digging into a building?
Not bothering with the math - it's an ability that costs 50 energy, and I'm not sure that even if it was passive that it would accomplish anything, given even token defense.
On October 06 2012 10:44 CikaZombi wrote: So if the Terran puts 1 mine in front of his base I can't ever sneak in with dts? Like ever? Even observers can retreat from turret fire if they have been hit once. A turret is one thing but an automated mine that sees and targets cloaked...
isnt mine unable to see cloack unit anymore?
mine can't see cloaked units, but it can attack them. And there is a cool down, if you send in one DT then the mine will go off, then just send in a 2nd one and profit while it's on cool down.
On October 06 2012 10:44 CikaZombi wrote: So if the Terran puts 1 mine in front of his base I can't ever sneak in with dts? Like ever? Even observers can retreat from turret fire if they have been hit once. A turret is one thing but an automated mine that sees and targets cloaked...
isnt mine unable to see cloack unit anymore?
Nah, they can now target cloaked and burrowed units. Which is hilarious in TvT, or should I say, mines versus mines.
On October 06 2012 10:44 CikaZombi wrote: So if the Terran puts 1 mine in front of his base I can't ever sneak in with dts? Like ever? Even observers can retreat from turret fire if they have been hit once. A turret is one thing but an automated mine that sees and targets cloaked...
isnt mine unable to see cloack unit anymore?
Nah, they can now target cloaked and burrowed units. Which is hilarious in TvT, or should I say, mines versus mines.
lol so dumb.
seriously mines should not work on workers and other mines, because one is OP the other is stupid.
On October 06 2012 10:29 CruelZeratul wrote: Phase Shield seemed like a much better ability. This new one is pretty boring.
I don't know, 3 minerals a second sounds pretty great. Bring me your supply depots!
I don't deny that it may be pretty effective, but it's just boring. Phase Shiled/Fungal/Blinding Cloud/what-have-you battles could have been sick, instead we get a lame, Mule like ability which does not add any excitement.
On October 06 2012 10:18 iTzSnypah wrote: Wait what?! The Widow Mine gets a mini-nuke? Also swarm hosts vs Widow Mines is going to be bonkers now. Going to be a wave of 'zombies' getting nuked and then again, over and over. Appealing eye candy but free vs free just sounds boring strategically.
Swarm hosts can probably beat widow mines since not only can locusts actually survive the splash from a mine hit, but they spawn every 25 seconds while mines "recharge" every 40, giving a window where the mines are vulnerable.
notice the new oracle ability called "void syphon." now look at my post on tl a few weeks ago, describing a new ability which should be added called "resource syphon."
the name of the ability is almost exactly the same (void syphon vs. resource syphon). the ability is almost exactly the same except they target it to a building instead of a mineral patch. i like my idea of targeting a mineral patch better because it harasses economy, but i'm not against their modification.
blizz implemented some of my suggestions here too, such as giving the thing a natural attack. however, it isn't as obvious to me in this case that they read my thread (perhaps ideas like giving it a natural attack were somewhat obvious?). however, it *IS* rather obvious in the first case above, don't you think?
note that i was banned after making these posts, btw. reasons cited by the mods included, of all things, "lack of constructive suggestions/ideas." the bans don't matter at all - i just make new accounts, make new posts, get banned again, rinse and repeat - i just wanted to make the point about how bad tl mods suck.
These mines aren't really OP. There is a huge window of opportunity when they're on cooldown, and you can force a cooldown cost-effectively, now that the mine is stupid. It's still pretty damn strong, but not OP in my opinion.
Ohh man I love the widow mine change!! They don't seem op as long as you have detection and send units one by one to absorb mine shots but they are still very good. Mech now seems possible once again!
On October 06 2012 10:53 Crawdad wrote: These mines aren't really OP. There is a huge window of opportunity when they're on cooldown, and you can force a cooldown cost-effectively, now that the mine is stupid. It's still pretty damn strong, but not OP in my opinion.
Agreed. That said, I think there's room to make them more interesting to use/watch. As they are now there's essentially 0 micro. Like... I'm pretty sure literally every unit in the game uses more micro.
For the void siphon ability... the 3 min/s would be great if that was actually a way to MINE... but as it stands I can't really see anyone being able to get more than... 20 or 30 minerals before the oracle gets killed or chased away. And it's not like you're going to make 40 oracles and mine your opponent to death.......
notice the new oracle ability called "void syphon." now look at my post on tl a few weeks ago, describing a new ability which should be added called "resource syphon."
the name of the ability is almost exactly the same (void syphon vs. resource syphon). the ability is almost exactly the same except they target it to a building instead of a mineral patch. i like my idea of targeting a mineral patch better because it harasses economy, but i'm not against their modification.
Wrong, there was already an ability on the Corruptor called Siphon in the battle reports, which did the exact same thing as the new Void Siphon. And its name was probably taken from the old Siphon Life on the Infestor. Blizzard reuses its own ideas, not yours. Even the "repurposed Shredder" idea is similar to the mine drone from WoL alpha.
Ok, I'm seeing a lot of dislike for Void Siphon and, unless I'm mistaken, not much love for the Oracle in general. Presumably due to it's underwhelming nature with Entomb lacking any and all micro and the new Void Siphon would only be good if you could just sit there with it for a long, long time. Again, an ability that lacks a dynamic element.
I think this is the right direction, but the wrong implementation for the Oracle.
Void Siphon is the right idea, but it shouldn't be a spell. If you take away the energy cost of it, the oracle becomes a potentially game winning, dynamic, harassment unit. People have argued about how Entomb is effectively shut down with some automated defenses, so the shields have been buffed to last longer. This doesn't have to be the case if Void Siphon becomes an actual attack that only damages buildings and steals minerals.
Entomb the line to stop mineral income, harass buildings to take what minerals your opponent has while occupying your opponent's army between simultaneously taking down the shields and stopping the Oracle itself.
It's like a banshee harass directly to the economy. With the current numbers this might be overpowered, but with a little balancing, I think it could be just what Blizz has been aiming at.
Could someone more experienced way in? I'm admittedly far from an experienced player, but I think this could work very well.
Imo they need to make the widow mine attackable when it is in the process of attacking. It assures too much damage automatically without any concern of the player. Basically, it just allows you to place it and never look at it again because unless it's killed preemptively it does its damage 100% of the time. That needs to be fixed for the amount of damage it does and how many can be made.
New widow mine is pretty cool, siphon seems horrible. Easy to shut down, not exciting. And what the hell why does that mean phase shield has to go?! What are we gonna do to protect from abducting mamaships and fungal growthing everything. That was an awesome ability with tons of potential, no clue why it was scrapped.
On the subject of Widow Mine vs Stalker/Observer... Keep in mind that the mine auto targets cloaked units, including air. So the protoss player will have to be very careful with their observer, setting it to follow on the stalkers, which then means the stalkers will probably walk into range of the mines and get hit at least once before killing it.
Its still just a 25 gas unit at this point, and if it 1 shots a stalker plus does the same AoE damage as a single baneling that's not too bad for the resource cost.
On October 06 2012 10:26 Plansix wrote: On a side note does 3 minerals a second sound like a lot to some people. I mean, its only 5 per work, per trip. What is the math on two of those digging into a building?
Not bothering with the math - it's an ability that costs 50 energy, and I'm not sure that even if it was passive that it would accomplish anything, given even token defense.
well 1 worker collect roughly 40 minerals per blizminutes from close mineral patch. an oracle will siphon 180 minerals per blizminute, so its 4.5 workers worth of mineral income, regardless of saturation.
surely no oracle will leech of an enemybase for a whole minute, but it aint hald bad.
it would surely stop terrans sending of factories to scout.
Once again I don't like the way the oracle works. They need to rework the way it works or implement a spell that would make it more useful in more situations. As of right now I rarely make it and rarely see it.
On October 06 2012 10:26 Plansix wrote: On a side note does 3 minerals a second sound like a lot to some people. I mean, its only 5 per work, per trip. What is the math on two of those digging into a building?
Not bothering with the math - it's an ability that costs 50 energy, and I'm not sure that even if it was passive that it would accomplish anything, given even token defense.
well 1 worker collect roughly 40 minerals per blizminutes from close mineral patch. an oracle will siphon 180 minerals per blizminute, so its 4.5 workers worth of mineral income, regardless of saturation.
surely no oracle will leech of an enemybase for a whole minute, but it aint hald bad.
it would surely stop terrans sending of factories to scout.
No it'll not....how many hours takes to this hability kill an single factory? Mines have to be balanced but it's a cool design*, but i have no hope for protoss players.
*By cool design i mean it sucks because it's auto cast...every unit in this game is going auto cast mode...and this sucks so bad....
On October 06 2012 09:46 cywinr wrote: So the widow mine is like a tank in siege mode... Except its cloaked and hits ground air and cloaked units with its slow attackspeed.... It doesnt even require micro to maximize its usefulness! Just sit there and itl take care of ground air cloaked any unit nearby...
Also, does anyone else think terrans have enough splash damage? Hellions thors tanks seekermissile nukes planetaries... Versus fungals banes and ultras or collo storm and archons.
Collosi,storms and Archons move pretty quick on Battlefield.Hellions dies too quick to all this stuff.Tanks dont move.Seekermissile is almost useless and far too expensive even for late game.Nukes...Have you seen Nukes since the ultimate ghost nerf with this cloak for 30s???And ofcourse PF are flying unit doing splash damage hehe...
Banelings are faster than every T unit if not stimmed Marine ir Marauder.Fungal makes units dont move so,banelings get their goal.Ultras got Burrow Charge and avoid totaly tank splash. Just go for Thors vs P or Z and you will see how BL,Ultras eat them and HTs "suicide" them hehe
I might be able to take you more seriously if your name weren't an anagram for drivel and if you took the time to actually make it possible to understand what you're trying to say.
My English is not so good obviously,and I really try to make it possible to understand.I was trying to say that even if Terran got more Splash Options,it does not mean they all are viable or good to use in the game.
My name is "Duriel" but written as in old Rome where the "U" was same as "V",ok? Duriel is a Demon from Diablo II...
If you know your English is not fluent, please take the time to try to correct your typos and punctuation before you post. Much of what you've been saying is essentially gibberish as written, so please proofread. I'd love to have a conversation with you, as I'm sure a lot of other people would, but it's very hard when we can't understand you.
On October 06 2012 10:18 iTzSnypah wrote: Wait what?! The Widow Mine gets a mini-nuke? Also swarm hosts vs Widow Mines is going to be bonkers now. Going to be a wave of 'zombies' getting nuked and then again, over and over. Appealing eye candy but free vs free just sounds boring strategically.
Swarm hosts can probably beat widow mines since not only can locusts actually survive the splash from a mine hit, but they spawn every 25 seconds while mines "recharge" every 40, giving a window where the mines are vulnerable.
He should try to watch brood lords vs. brood lords.
On October 06 2012 10:26 Plansix wrote: On a side note does 3 minerals a second sound like a lot to some people. I mean, its only 5 per work, per trip. What is the math on two of those digging into a building?
Not bothering with the math - it's an ability that costs 50 energy, and I'm not sure that even if it was passive that it would accomplish anything, given even token defense.
well 1 worker collect roughly 40 minerals per blizminutes from close mineral patch. an oracle will siphon 180 minerals per blizminute, so its 4.5 workers worth of mineral income, regardless of saturation.
surely no oracle will leech of an enemybase for a whole minute, but it aint hald bad.
it would surely stop terrans sending of factories to scout.
Actually, that's an amazing idea, holy shit I'm all for it now. If I can get terrans to stop with that ridiculous factory free scout that also screws with my stalker AI and blocks my zealots, I will dance for joy.
LOL Blizzard, how is a staggering 3 DPS plus "harass" that only benefits yourself a new and improved form of harassment? Might as well not build that flying sphere of shit this week since that's obviously going to get changed in the next balance update.
Like the concept of the void siphon, but it's really in a crippled form and will need future buffs. The combination of (poor DPS/poor range/mana requirements/slow rate of minerals being generated) mean this won't be used much and most if not all of the aforementioned variables will need to be tweaked. I mean it does half the damage of 25 mineral zergling?! Definitely needs tweaks.
I love the idea that void siphon not require mana...it would make the oracle so much more practical and popular. I like the idea that void siphon would work on overlords...that would be a lot of fun flying around the map trying to find overlords to harvest...
Anybody know if void siphon is stackable? Because attack windows will be so small...this unit would benefit from flying in flocks and attacking at once.
The widow mine really overlaps with the siege tank now. I'd prefer they just kept the mines as they were, lowered their cost / food, and then brought in a new unit which didn't overlap. The old mine mechanic was cooler than a missile imo and woulda been fine if the mines themselves were way cheaper. Hell make the mines 25/25.
I would really like the mine/rocket whatever to be less of a gimmick with less but more reliable and faster damage. I really don't get why this has to do 160 damage . With 2 supply the damage has to be substantional but still it it feel wierd to use. Especially with 40 second delay between attacks.
widow mine/BH/tank is unbelieveably cool. It's immobile, as mech should be. It requires positional play, and best part? mines act as anti-air+vision for tanks! BH complements everything perfectly.
On October 06 2012 12:19 Wombat_NI wrote: Apparently phase shield was massively underused? It sounded a potentially potent ability, especially vs lategame Zerg.
Was it just gimmicky/not useful or have people not been experimenting enough with units and abilities out of the current beta playerpool?
A big part of it was the seemingly random list of things it did/didn't affect I think. No one really knew how the hell it was supposed to be used, so I assume it was underused in favor of other, more clearly useful options.
On October 06 2012 12:04 Fungal Growth wrote: Like the concept of the void siphon, but it's really in a crippled form and will need future buffs. The combination of (poor DPS/poor range/mana requirements/slow rate of minerals being generated) mean this won't be used much and most if not all of the aforementioned variables will need to be tweaked. I mean it does half the damage of 25 mineral zergling?! Definitely needs tweaks.
I love the idea that void siphon not require mana...it would make the oracle so much more practical and popular. I like the idea that void siphon would work on overlords...that would be a lot of fun flying around the map trying to find overlords to harvest...
Anybody know if void siphon is stackable? Because attack windows will be so small...this unit would benefit from flying in flocks and attacking at once.
You have to understand, Void Siphon is not about doing physical damage. The only real reason it does damage at all is so that, say, a proxy pylon, or a factory scout, or any other errant building don't become the equivalent of a Permanent MULE. Killing buildings just is not the purpose behind it.
Also, exactly how does it work? Do you just gain 3 min/s with Siphon going, or are you TAKING 3 min/s from their mineral pool? I assume since it says drain in the patch notes that it is the latter.
Anyways, just removing the energy requirement would make it work really well. I don't think the siphon rate should be changed; it would make them potentially way too good if unchecked. The ability to do a moving shot would be nice.
On October 06 2012 12:04 Fungal Growth wrote: Like the concept of the void siphon, but it's really in a crippled form and will need future buffs. The combination of (poor DPS/poor range/mana requirements/slow rate of minerals being generated) mean this won't be used much and most if not all of the aforementioned variables will need to be tweaked. I mean it does half the damage of 25 mineral zergling?! Definitely needs tweaks.
I love the idea that void siphon not require mana...it would make the oracle so much more practical and popular. I like the idea that void siphon would work on overlords...that would be a lot of fun flying around the map trying to find overlords to harvest...
Anybody know if void siphon is stackable? Because attack windows will be so small...this unit would benefit from flying in flocks and attacking at once.
You have to understand, Void Siphon is not about doing physical damage. The only real reason it does damage at all is so that, say, a proxy pylon, or a factory scout, or any other errant building don't become the equivalent of a Permanent MULE. Killing buildings just is not the purpose behind it.
Also, exactly how does it work? Do you just gain 3 min/s with Siphon going, or are you TAKING 3 min/s from their mineral pool? I assume since it says drain in the patch notes that it is the latter.
Anyways, just removing the energy requirement would make it work really well. I don't think the siphon rate should be changed; it would make them potentially way too good if unchecked. The ability to do a moving shot would be nice.
It doesn't give you any minerals, only takes from you opponent. I think 3 min/sec is too low, especially since there is literally no incentive to build more than 2 oracles. I would like to see them ramp it up to like 10 minerals a second and see if it would make things more viable and tune from there.
On October 06 2012 12:12 osiris17 wrote: The widow mine really overlaps with the siege tank now. I'd prefer they just kept the mines as they were, lowered their cost / food, and then brought in a new unit which didn't overlap. The old mine mechanic was cooler than a missile imo and woulda been fine if the mines themselves were way cheaper. Hell make the mines 25/25.
An invisible tank that has 2 second deploy time with max range 5 and 40s reload that does not scale with upgrades
vs.
A tank that has 3 second deploy time with max range 13 and 3s reload that scales with upgrades.
On October 06 2012 12:04 Fungal Growth wrote: Like the concept of the void siphon, but it's really in a crippled form and will need future buffs. The combination of (poor DPS/poor range/mana requirements/slow rate of minerals being generated) mean this won't be used much and most if not all of the aforementioned variables will need to be tweaked. I mean it does half the damage of 25 mineral zergling?! Definitely needs tweaks.
I love the idea that void siphon not require mana...it would make the oracle so much more practical and popular. I like the idea that void siphon would work on overlords...that would be a lot of fun flying around the map trying to find overlords to harvest...
Anybody know if void siphon is stackable? Because attack windows will be so small...this unit would benefit from flying in flocks and attacking at once.
You have to understand, Void Siphon is not about doing physical damage. The only real reason it does damage at all is so that, say, a proxy pylon, or a factory scout, or any other errant building don't become the equivalent of a Permanent MULE. Killing buildings just is not the purpose behind it.
Also, exactly how does it work? Do you just gain 3 min/s with Siphon going, or are you TAKING 3 min/s from their mineral pool? I assume since it says drain in the patch notes that it is the latter.
Anyways, just removing the energy requirement would make it work really well. I don't think the siphon rate should be changed; it would make them potentially way too good if unchecked. The ability to do a moving shot would be nice.
It doesn't give you any minerals, only takes from you opponent. I think 3 min/sec is too low, especially since there is literally no incentive to build more than 2 oracles. I would like to see them ramp it up to like 10 minerals a second and see if it would make things more viable and tune from there.
Well, I've definitely misunderstood the notes then. :/
That certainly leaves room for it being raised, but 10/s seems a bit high. I mean, that's 600 minerals per minute. Still, I've always felt that tuning down is the way to go.
EDIT: Actually, it looks like we've both misunderstood.
The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and harvests 3 minerals every second until canceled. (Note: This ability will not cause the opposing player to lose minerals.)
So, it's only going to give us minerals, not take from the opposing player.
Make it gas instead of mins and we're in business.
A possibility for them might be to put energize on the oracle and think of some new ability for the mofo core. It would provide some nice synergy for air builds since the biggest problem is doing great damage with the phoenixes or w/e and then just dying to lings/roach. They'd have to up the energy cost though or we'd go back to the dark days of GSL and warp in storm where 1 protoss won.
On October 06 2012 12:27 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It doesn't give you any minerals, only takes from you opponent. I think 3 min/sec is too low, especially since there is literally no incentive to build more than 2 oracles. I would like to see them ramp it up to like 10 minerals a second and see if it would make things more viable and tune from there.
Funny, I heard the exact opposite. Can we get confirmation on this?
On October 06 2012 12:04 Fungal Growth wrote: Like the concept of the void siphon, but it's really in a crippled form and will need future buffs. The combination of (poor DPS/poor range/mana requirements/slow rate of minerals being generated) mean this won't be used much and most if not all of the aforementioned variables will need to be tweaked. I mean it does half the damage of 25 mineral zergling?! Definitely needs tweaks.
I love the idea that void siphon not require mana...it would make the oracle so much more practical and popular. I like the idea that void siphon would work on overlords...that would be a lot of fun flying around the map trying to find overlords to harvest...
Anybody know if void siphon is stackable? Because attack windows will be so small...this unit would benefit from flying in flocks and attacking at once.
You have to understand, Void Siphon is not about doing physical damage. The only real reason it does damage at all is so that, say, a proxy pylon, or a factory scout, or any other errant building don't become the equivalent of a Permanent MULE. Killing buildings just is not the purpose behind it.
Also, exactly how does it work? Do you just gain 3 min/s with Siphon going, or are you TAKING 3 min/s from their mineral pool? I assume since it says drain in the patch notes that it is the latter.
Anyways, just removing the energy requirement would make it work really well. I don't think the siphon rate should be changed; it would make them potentially way too good if unchecked. The ability to do a moving shot would be nice.
It doesn't give you any minerals, only takes from you opponent. I think 3 min/sec is too low, especially since there is literally no incentive to build more than 2 oracles. I would like to see them ramp it up to like 10 minerals a second and see if it would make things more viable and tune from there.
They should make the channel ability scale, from 3 then 9 then 27m/s then that'll *will need* attention.
On October 06 2012 12:27 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It doesn't give you any minerals, only takes from you opponent. I think 3 min/sec is too low, especially since there is literally no incentive to build more than 2 oracles. I would like to see them ramp it up to like 10 minerals a second and see if it would make things more viable and tune from there.
Funny, I heard the exact opposite. Can we get confirmation on this?
I checked the patch notes, it's the exact opposite.
Protoss
Oracle The Phase Shield ability has been removedThis unit has a new ability called Void Siphon. The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and harvests 3 minerals every second until canceled. (Note: This ability will not cause the opposing player to lose minerals.)The range is 7.The damage/harvest effect ticks when you cast the ability and every sequential second following. Void Siphon costs 50 energy to cast.
On October 06 2012 12:27 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It doesn't give you any minerals, only takes from you opponent. I think 3 min/sec is too low, especially since there is literally no incentive to build more than 2 oracles. I would like to see them ramp it up to like 10 minerals a second and see if it would make things more viable and tune from there.
You have that backwards, it doesn't harm your opponent's minerals, it only gives you some.
Also, the Mothership Core is becoming really weird now. Now, recall is the MsC taking nearby units to the nexus, and the purifier beam no longer comes from the MsC but the nexus? I've pondered it some and come up with a much more intuitive outfit of abilities for the Mothership Core:
Energize(no change) Teleport(de-removed)
Bind(I will explain)
Purify
Mass Recall
Unbind
In this form, the Mothership Core will be able to move around quickly and use a normal attack like it has since the recent patch, since that fills an important role for the Protoss in a direct way. The Teleport ability would be re-added to the MsC, but with a cooldown so as not to interfere with its other abilities. Using Bind would tether the MsC to the Nexus, allowing it to move, but within a leash range so it may only be used defensively. While bound to the Nexus, it would be able to use Purify, similar to last patch, where it could be used indefinitely but disabled energy-regen or other abilities until cancelled. It would also be able to use Recall while bound, disabling the possibility of a Recall-into-enemy's-face strategy. Using Unbind would free the Mothership Core once again, allowing it to move freely across the map.
Overall, this should make all of the Mothership Core's abilities make sense again, while simultaneously achieving everything Blizzard wants to do with it.
On October 06 2012 12:04 Fungal Growth wrote: Like the concept of the void siphon, but it's really in a crippled form and will need future buffs. The combination of (poor DPS/poor range/mana requirements/slow rate of minerals being generated) mean this won't be used much and most if not all of the aforementioned variables will need to be tweaked. I mean it does half the damage of 25 mineral zergling?! Definitely needs tweaks.
I love the idea that void siphon not require mana...it would make the oracle so much more practical and popular. I like the idea that void siphon would work on overlords...that would be a lot of fun flying around the map trying to find overlords to harvest...
Anybody know if void siphon is stackable? Because attack windows will be so small...this unit would benefit from flying in flocks and attacking at once.
You have to understand, Void Siphon is not about doing physical damage. The only real reason it does damage at all is so that, say, a proxy pylon, or a factory scout, or any other errant building don't become the equivalent of a Permanent MULE. Killing buildings just is not the purpose behind it.
Also, exactly how does it work? Do you just gain 3 min/s with Siphon going, or are you TAKING 3 min/s from their mineral pool? I assume since it says drain in the patch notes that it is the latter.
Anyways, just removing the energy requirement would make it work really well. I don't think the siphon rate should be changed; it would make them potentially way too good if unchecked. The ability to do a moving shot would be nice.
It doesn't give you any minerals, only takes from you opponent. I think 3 min/sec is too low, especially since there is literally no incentive to build more than 2 oracles. I would like to see them ramp it up to like 10 minerals a second and see if it would make things more viable and tune from there.
Well, I've definitely misunderstood the notes then. :/
That certainly leaves room for it being raised, but 10/s seems a bit high. I mean, that's 600 minerals per minute. Still, I've always felt that tuning down is the way to go.
EDIT: Actually, it looks like we've both misunderstood.
The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and harvests 3 minerals every second until canceled. (Note: This ability will not cause the opposing player to lose minerals.)
So, it's only going to give us minerals, not take from the opposing player.
On October 06 2012 12:04 Fungal Growth wrote: Like the concept of the void siphon, but it's really in a crippled form and will need future buffs. The combination of (poor DPS/poor range/mana requirements/slow rate of minerals being generated) mean this won't be used much and most if not all of the aforementioned variables will need to be tweaked. I mean it does half the damage of 25 mineral zergling?! Definitely needs tweaks.
I love the idea that void siphon not require mana...it would make the oracle so much more practical and popular. I like the idea that void siphon would work on overlords...that would be a lot of fun flying around the map trying to find overlords to harvest...
Anybody know if void siphon is stackable? Because attack windows will be so small...this unit would benefit from flying in flocks and attacking at once.
You have to understand, Void Siphon is not about doing physical damage. The only real reason it does damage at all is so that, say, a proxy pylon, or a factory scout, or any other errant building don't become the equivalent of a Permanent MULE. Killing buildings just is not the purpose behind it.
Also, exactly how does it work? Do you just gain 3 min/s with Siphon going, or are you TAKING 3 min/s from their mineral pool? I assume since it says drain in the patch notes that it is the latter.
Anyways, just removing the energy requirement would make it work really well. I don't think the siphon rate should be changed; it would make them potentially way too good if unchecked. The ability to do a moving shot would be nice.
It doesn't give you any minerals, only takes from you opponent. I think 3 min/sec is too low, especially since there is literally no incentive to build more than 2 oracles. I would like to see them ramp it up to like 10 minerals a second and see if it would make things more viable and tune from there.
Well, I've definitely misunderstood the notes then. :/
That certainly leaves room for it being raised, but 10/s seems a bit high. I mean, that's 600 minerals per minute. Still, I've always felt that tuning down is the way to go.
EDIT: Actually, it looks like we've both misunderstood.
The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and harvests 3 minerals every second until canceled. (Note: This ability will not cause the opposing player to lose minerals.)
So, it's only going to give us minerals, not take from the opposing player.
On October 06 2012 12:04 Fungal Growth wrote: Like the concept of the void siphon, but it's really in a crippled form and will need future buffs. The combination of (poor DPS/poor range/mana requirements/slow rate of minerals being generated) mean this won't be used much and most if not all of the aforementioned variables will need to be tweaked. I mean it does half the damage of 25 mineral zergling?! Definitely needs tweaks.
I love the idea that void siphon not require mana...it would make the oracle so much more practical and popular. I like the idea that void siphon would work on overlords...that would be a lot of fun flying around the map trying to find overlords to harvest...
Anybody know if void siphon is stackable? Because attack windows will be so small...this unit would benefit from flying in flocks and attacking at once.
You have to understand, Void Siphon is not about doing physical damage. The only real reason it does damage at all is so that, say, a proxy pylon, or a factory scout, or any other errant building don't become the equivalent of a Permanent MULE. Killing buildings just is not the purpose behind it.
Also, exactly how does it work? Do you just gain 3 min/s with Siphon going, or are you TAKING 3 min/s from their mineral pool? I assume since it says drain in the patch notes that it is the latter.
Anyways, just removing the energy requirement would make it work really well. I don't think the siphon rate should be changed; it would make them potentially way too good if unchecked. The ability to do a moving shot would be nice.
It doesn't give you any minerals, only takes from you opponent. I think 3 min/sec is too low, especially since there is literally no incentive to build more than 2 oracles. I would like to see them ramp it up to like 10 minerals a second and see if it would make things more viable and tune from there.
Well, I've definitely misunderstood the notes then. :/
That certainly leaves room for it being raised, but 10/s seems a bit high. I mean, that's 600 minerals per minute. Still, I've always felt that tuning down is the way to go.
EDIT: Actually, it looks like we've both misunderstood.
The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and harvests 3 minerals every second until canceled. (Note: This ability will not cause the opposing player to lose minerals.)
So, it's only going to give us minerals, not take from the opposing player.
Er, what? That seems completely retarded then.
Yeah, I don't like it as much as I did when I misunderstood it. To quote Dr. Horrible, "It's not about making money. It's about TAKING money."
On October 06 2012 12:27 KrazyTrumpet wrote: It doesn't give you any minerals, only takes from you opponent. I think 3 min/sec is too low, especially since there is literally no incentive to build more than 2 oracles. I would like to see them ramp it up to like 10 minerals a second and see if it would make things more viable and tune from there.
You have that backwards, it doesn't harm your opponent's minerals, it only gives you some.
Also, the Mothership Core is becoming really weird now. Now, recall is the MsC taking nearby units to the nexus, and the purifier beam no longer comes from the MsC but the nexus? I've pondered it some and come up with a much more intuitive outfit of abilities for the Mothership Core:
Energize(no change) Teleport(de-removed)
Bind(I will explain)
Purify
Mass Recall
Unbind
In this form, the Mothership Core will be able to move around quickly and use a normal attack like it has since the recent patch, since that fills an important role for the Protoss in a direct way. The Teleport ability would be re-added to the MsC, but with a cooldown so as not to interfere with its other abilities. Using Bind would tether the MsC to the Nexus, allowing it to move, but within a leash range so it may only be used defensively. While bound to the Nexus, it would be able to use Purify, similar to last patch, where it could be used indefinitely but disabled energy-regen or other abilities until cancelled. It would also be able to use Recall while bound, disabling the possibility of a Recall-into-enemy's-face strategy. Using Unbind would free the Mothership Core once again, allowing it to move freely across the map.
Overall, this should make all of the Mothership Core's abilities make sense again, while simultaneously achieving everything Blizzard wants to do with it.
I think they do it this way because thee don't want the MsC to just teleport away from your army, when you might want to use the ability on your nexus to kill a run-by, but then keep your MsC close to your army for a possible recall.
I think the MsC is pretty much perfect, it just needs number tweaks now
On October 06 2012 12:52 Anefinrok wrote: Yeah, I don't like it as much as I did when I misunderstood it. To quote Dr. Horrible, "It's not about making money. It's about TAKING money."
On October 06 2012 12:04 Fungal Growth wrote: Like the concept of the void siphon, but it's really in a crippled form and will need future buffs. The combination of (poor DPS/poor range/mana requirements/slow rate of minerals being generated) mean this won't be used much and most if not all of the aforementioned variables will need to be tweaked. I mean it does half the damage of 25 mineral zergling?! Definitely needs tweaks.
I love the idea that void siphon not require mana...it would make the oracle so much more practical and popular. I like the idea that void siphon would work on overlords...that would be a lot of fun flying around the map trying to find overlords to harvest...
Anybody know if void siphon is stackable? Because attack windows will be so small...this unit would benefit from flying in flocks and attacking at once.
You have to understand, Void Siphon is not about doing physical damage. The only real reason it does damage at all is so that, say, a proxy pylon, or a factory scout, or any other errant building don't become the equivalent of a Permanent MULE. Killing buildings just is not the purpose behind it.
Also, exactly how does it work? Do you just gain 3 min/s with Siphon going, or are you TAKING 3 min/s from their mineral pool? I assume since it says drain in the patch notes that it is the latter.
Anyways, just removing the energy requirement would make it work really well. I don't think the siphon rate should be changed; it would make them potentially way too good if unchecked. The ability to do a moving shot would be nice.
It doesn't give you any minerals, only takes from you opponent. I think 3 min/sec is too low, especially since there is literally no incentive to build more than 2 oracles. I would like to see them ramp it up to like 10 minerals a second and see if it would make things more viable and tune from there.
Well, I've definitely misunderstood the notes then. :/
That certainly leaves room for it being raised, but 10/s seems a bit high. I mean, that's 600 minerals per minute. Still, I've always felt that tuning down is the way to go.
EDIT: Actually, it looks like we've both misunderstood.
The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and harvests 3 minerals every second until canceled. (Note: This ability will not cause the opposing player to lose minerals.)
So, it's only going to give us minerals, not take from the opposing player.
Er, what? That seems completely retarded then.
Yeah, I don't like it as much as I did when I misunderstood it. To quote Dr. Horrible, "It's not about making money. It's about TAKING money."
It needs to be the other way around, or both.
For sure, it needs to be a harassing unit. This...is not.
Don't like Oracle changes. Imo its Entomb they should be looking to change, not Phase Shield. While I'm not really good enough to use it effectively, I can imagine pros using it with intense micro. Perhaps it could even make void rays viable in late game PvZ.
This new ability that they're replacing it with sounds, to be perfectly honest, completely useless. They got rid of one of the vision spells to reduce overlap, but then introduce a different spell that overlaps with Entomb? I don't know the exact numbers, but Entomb is a couple hundred minerals of guaranteed damage, yes? So what reason is there to spend 50 energy to get 3 minerals a sec for....10 seconds? (only time you'll get much more than that is if it's a proxy building)
And even if they buffed it to actually make it worthwhile, it still seems to add practically nothing to the Oracle. At least before, it had some in-combat utility.
On October 06 2012 12:52 Anefinrok wrote: Yeah, I don't like it as much as I did when I misunderstood it. To quote Dr. Horrible, "It's not about making money. It's about TAKING money."
It needs to be the other way around, or both.
Entomb exists, though.
And I like Entomb. However, Siphon is still the issue at hand. It's the psychology of the thing. Inflicting damage is more exciting than gaining minerals. It's more frantic, more fun, better to watch. I'd love to see them used in conjunction to grind the economy to a halt and then start stealing from it. We're so close to the Oracle being a fun, dangerous, harassment unit.
I think this is a step in the right direction for the Oracle, but it needs tweaking.
lul, those widow mines feel kind of broken at first, but once ppl figure them out and you have your mines hitting overlords and single zerglings they almost feel much weeker than before. hard to say yet, but I definitly like the change. I feel like the idea is much better than the initial one, after all this shit costs 25 gas and TWO supply, in broodwar you did get 3 mines and a vulturefor 75 minerals, and that wasn't imbalanced either. Hard to say what I think of the mines killing invisible units, I feel like its definitly nice to kill DTs, but on the other hand it seems to be too good against banshees, banshees kind of seem almost useless now.
Let me get this straight...The widow mine kills cloaked units without detection. Protoss flies observer in to reveal Widow Mine. Observer dies? That sounds realllllly dumb. I'm all for drastic changes, but all of these are real head-scratchers.
On October 06 2012 13:15 Thorrissey wrote: Let me get this straight...The widow mine kills cloaked units without detection. Protoss flies observer in to reveal Widow Mine. Observer dies? That sounds realllllly dumb. I'm all for drastic changes, but all of these are real head-scratchers.
The sight range of the obs is more than the Widow Mine range. But yeah, you will have to babysit your obs a lot more now, which may or may not be a bad thing.
I'm wondering if maybe hitting cloaked ground units, but not air units would be something worth changing. If you need a lore excuse, just say they use seismic sensors or whatever to detect cloaked ground units. However, I suppose we should wait until this has been played around with before we start suggesting changes again haha
On October 06 2012 13:15 Thorrissey wrote: Let me get this straight...The widow mine kills cloaked units without detection. Protoss flies observer in to reveal Widow Mine. Observer dies? That sounds realllllly dumb. I'm all for drastic changes, but all of these are real head-scratchers.
The sight range of the obs is more than the Widow Mine range. But yeah, you will have to babysit your obs a lot more now, which may or may not be a bad thing.
Exactly. HOTS is already feeling so much different from WoL. It's like a different game. ^.^
Don't know why they don't expand their whole 'field bubble' idea - if the Void Siphon casted a 200hp bubble-stasis on a building that disabled it and siphoned money until destroyed it would be a lot more interesting to me. Like a weird mix between contaminate, disruption web and entomb.
Even if it was like a 5 energy 'attack' that only lasted a few seconds (with a 50hp bubble or something), leading it to be spam-casted or constantly re-casted, it'd be a lot more interesting. Something that makes the opponent actually want to stop the harass beyond "der they're getting 3 minerals/second =("
Mind still blown at the Oracle change. It seemed they were on the right path with phase shield, if not in a practical sense, well then at least by the role the Oracle could fit into, a dual kind of harassment/support caster.
Now it's back to being a unit that is only good for harassment really, and is piss poor in that capacity. Fuck sake Blizzard.
On October 06 2012 13:35 Wombat_NI wrote: Mind still blown at the Oracle change. It seemed they were on the right path with phase shield, if not in a practical sense, well then at least by the role the Oracle could fit into, a dual kind of harassment/support caster.
Now it's back to being a unit that is only good for harassment really, and is piss poor in that capacity. Fuck sake Blizzard.
Well, they eventually got on the right track with MsC and Widow Mine design (IMO) so let's give them a chance to keep working at it. Oracle has obviously not been a priority for very long, lets see what they can do now that it is.
On October 06 2012 13:24 Jehct wrote: Don't know why they don't expand their whole 'field bubble' idea - if the Void Siphon casted a 200hp bubble-stasis on a building that disabled it and siphoned money until destroyed it would be a lot more interesting to me. Like a weird mix between contaminate, disruption web and entomb.
Even if it was like a 5 energy 'attack' that only lasted a few seconds (with a 50hp bubble or something), leading it to be spam-casted or constantly re-casted, it'd be a lot more interesting. Something that makes the opponent actually want to stop the harass beyond "der they're getting 3 minerals/second =("
I thought they were on the right path with Phase shield as well. It's incredibly one dimensional to decide which type of (quite lame) harass you want to do, instead of deciding if you want your Oracle out on it's OWN to harass, or to supplement your army as a caster. I know it's only beta, but this is definitely the wrong way to go, in my opinion.
On October 06 2012 13:40 Thorrissey wrote: I thought they were on the right path with Phase shield as well. It's incredibly one dimensional to decide which type of (quite lame) harass you want to do, instead of deciding if you want your Oracle out on it's OWN to harass, or to supplement your army as a caster. I know it's only beta, but this is definitely the wrong way to go, in my opinion.
Agreed, I expected them to give it a better defensive spell. Because god knows the Stargate units need support. Seeing a harassment spell replace a defensive spell, instead of the harassment spell we already had, makes me scratch my head. I wouldn't mind if we got the cloaking field back, honestly.
On October 06 2012 14:05 aZealot wrote: If they reduced Phoenix Graviton beam energy to 25, I'd be happy with that as a "harass unit" out of SG.
I'm not really sure what they want to achieve with the Oracle, but I guess you could say that about a lot of HotS, thus far.
Exactly, Phoenix harass is rather potent, but limited by the energy you can stockpile. It's always a kick in the teeth to get a bunch of unscouted phoenix up, hit a Zerg with no spores and run out of gravitons.
Even without such a tweak, Phoenixes are pretty good harassment units as they are now, and the Oracle could have a dual harassment/support caster role.
I for one liked the possibilities of phase shield, apparently nobody really played around with it in Beta but it at least gave the Oracle a bit of utility. This change pissed me off because it appeared that Blizzard were actually on the right track with something, and they just went back to making the Oracle a gimmicky, boring unit.
Widow mine seems potentially potent, don't like that it bypasses detection though but I guess it can be tweaked.
On October 06 2012 13:15 Thorrissey wrote: Let me get this straight...The widow mine kills cloaked units without detection. Protoss flies observer in to reveal Widow Mine. Observer dies? That sounds realllllly dumb. I'm all for drastic changes, but all of these are real head-scratchers.
gues what happened to ravens and overseers all along? you have to keep them back. Now it's easier to deal with them since you can send in decoy units that trigger the mines first.
On October 06 2012 13:15 Thorrissey wrote: Let me get this straight...The widow mine kills cloaked units without detection. Protoss flies observer in to reveal Widow Mine. Observer dies? That sounds realllllly dumb. I'm all for drastic changes, but all of these are real head-scratchers.
The sight range of the obs is more than the Widow Mine range. But yeah, you will have to babysit your obs a lot more now, which may or may not be a bad thing.
I'm wondering if maybe hitting cloaked ground units, but not air units would be something worth changing. If you need a lore excuse, just say they use seismic sensors or whatever to detect cloaked ground units. However, I suppose we should wait until this has been played around with before we start suggesting changes again haha
I feel like the "seismic sensor" might be the way to go, nice idea.
I'm having a lot of fun with peopl going 4gate against me by the way, they can't warp on the highground and the widow mines just troll them to death. but I actually feel like this is more balanced than it was before, silly all ins were just too good and greedy, macro oriented play too weak, especially in lower leagues. once people start to play more greedy early aggression and "all ins" will be better again. just think of the times were terran could go barracks before depot and when they removed that I thought "terran can never do early pressure again", yet we se 11 11 rax owning every zerg.
On October 06 2012 14:13 TigerKarl wrote: They don't get it anymore. What's wrong with Blizzard these days?
Almost all of their changes are on point with the community's suggestions. They really can't win.
Well you can design these units that they work somehow ok like WoL Units, but they don't seem to be able to see the fundamental flaws in this game. If they don't realize what way they're going, there'll be another game in 2 years and Starcraft just dies miserably, like Diablo3 did, where they didn't get it either.
I'm having trouble understanding how you people let your Observers die...
Obs have 11 sight range... Which means that, from the edge of your sight range to the edge of the mine's attack range, is actually greater than the mine's attack range. What the hell were you doing with your Observers?
On October 06 2012 14:32 Crawdad wrote: I'm having trouble understanding how you people let your Observers die...
Obs have 11 sight range... Which means that, from the edge of your sight range to the edge of the mine's attack range, is actually greater than the mine's attack range. What the hell were you doing with your Observers?
When you queue up a few move commands to send it towards an enemy base or check possible army movement/drop paths. w/e, it will just mean you have to babysit the observers a bit more, which I think is fine. Hell, maybe even get Protoss players to make a second robo earlier so they don't waste Colossus/Immortal time by remaking observers
I really like new changes to orackle but its just way too weak. From zerg you not gonna get any minerals at all becoz of building placement. Terran just can build viking... and protoss just blinks. ITS WAY TOO WEAK. BUFF IT
On October 06 2012 14:32 Crawdad wrote: I'm having trouble understanding how you people let your Observers die...
Obs have 11 sight range... Which means that, from the edge of your sight range to the edge of the mine's attack range, is actually greater than the mine's attack range. What the hell were you doing with your Observers?
Waypoint on the minimap to opponents base. Godspeed observer!
great changes to the widow mine but i have a few concerns on the units cost for the amount of damage it produces. as i understand it the mine costs 75/25 the same as a baneling(or close enough) and it is cloacked (without the need to research anything) and has splash and can re-arm itself while still being cloaked and can shoot cloaked units and can be reactored out and doesnt die after shooting its almost un avoidable exploding splash dealing missile..... a great idea but waaaaay to cost effective. kinda like a burrowed raven seeker missile. hope they keep the idea and balance it up. on a smaller note gotta agree with everyone on the oracle. seems pointless when entomb can instantly deny mining time rather then sitting there in plain sight taking 3 minerals a second lol
Well the oracle could be used in some sort of goofy zealot builds where you have more minerals than normal, but I have serious doubts about how often it can sit there channeling.
Make siphon something like it builds up a shield battery power that can only be used on other units. Similar to how shields regenerate, this would have an inverse effect of depleting at the same rate that shields regen if not used after a delay.
I like that the widow mine can spend itself on hallucinations, which would make for some gosu Seed plays.
If you can lift a factory into someone's base, they're in a bad way.
Until they get detection, your mine will be getting 2 - 4 free worker kills every missile refresh. Terran can just press C and be done with it, but everybody else has to evacuate their mineral line every few moments and offer a sacrifice to David Kim before mining again.
If you have a lot of shooting stuff at the front of your base, mines are probably easier to deal with than before, due to the lack of control terrans have over what and when they shoot...just remember where they were planted.
I guarantee you this will get dragged into a back alley and beaten to near-death with a nerf bat by the end of the week.
The patch notes you have linked in the OP are wrong. You state "Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed."
Autocast can NEVER be turned off for this unit. When when unburrowed the icons are not spinning like an auto-cast and both left and right-click don't change it.
New widow mine now can be deactivated for a 40 sec with Zerglings and then killed by other units without any damage.
The patch notes you have linked in the OP are wrong. You state "Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed."
Autocast can NEVER be turned off for this unit. When when unburrowed the icons are not spinning like an auto-cast and both left and right-click don't change it.
On October 06 2012 08:01 DMZ wrote: Widow mine seems overpowered- just need a factory for detection? Especially against banshee or DTs. It'll shut down pretty much any cloaked harass and a lot of zergling backstabs with the 40 dmg splash.. Oracle seems kind of odd. the siphon seems kind of stupid since I don't think it'll do much of an impact due to the oracle's fragility.. although in a PvP it could be useful as you could siphon on a forward pylon and punish them that way. And the mothership core nerf stops it harassing zerg bases early, since a queen can out dps it now. (I think). Course, I play zerg so this is all from an outside viewpoint..
I have no problem with this. Works just like the spidermine (minus it hitting air, I don't agree with that).
If you want to use DTs, get a halucination to go eat the widowmine then run your dts in, it's not difficult.
Also the zergling backstab thing is what the mine is designed to do. Without it, mech is awful at dealing with any kind of base race as you just can't get back before you lose all your bases due to the god awful map design. If tanks were stronger and you could actually defend areas with small amounts of tanks, it wouldn't be an issue.
How does zerg ever beat mech then? I mech becomes almost unkillable when played halfway decently. Zergling backstabs are often how a zerg has a chance to stay in the game when terran begins the doom push.
On October 06 2012 15:07 Ooshmagoosh wrote: If you can lift a factory into someone's base, they're in a bad way.
Until they get detection, your mine will be getting 2 - 4 free worker kills every missile refresh. Terran can just press C and be done with it, but everybody else has to evacuate their mineral line every few moments and offer a sacrifice to David Kim before mining again.
If you have a lot of shooting stuff at the front of your base, mines are probably easier to deal with than before, due to the lack of control terrans have over what and when they shoot...just remember where they were planted.
I guarantee you this will get dragged into a back alley and beaten to near-death with a nerf bat by the end of the week.
I sincerely hope that Terrans abuse the shit out of this. Then everyone HAS to think of a counter. But seriously, how the F did you let a factory land and build in your base?!
On October 06 2012 15:14 Existor wrote: New widow mine now can be deactivated for a 40 sec with Zerglings and then killed by other units without any damage.
The patch notes you have linked in the OP are wrong. You state "Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed."
Autocast can NEVER be turned off for this unit. When when unburrowed the icons are not spinning like an auto-cast and both left and right-click don't change it.
PrideTV just tested it for us. Please update OP.
They're right. Unburrow and you turn it off.
No you can't. We just opened a game vs a CPU and tried it. There are 2 icons visible when the unit is unburrowed and neither of them has the swirl of an autocast ability, and neither of them do anything when left or right clicked right clicked except burrow the unit as normal. Edit: Clarified a bit
Why don't the move contaminate from the overseer to the oracle and make it a channeled ability? They should also make it actually work on all buildings. They should make it so that it cancels almost all effects of that ability.
Casting it on a supply depot could prevent it from being lowered/raised and also stop it from contributing to the supply. Casting it on a cannon would stop it from firing. Casting it on a unit producing structure or a research producing structure would stop it from producing anything.
Hell, they could even remove entomb to and make it so that if you cast this on a town hall, you can't return minerals to it.
Widow mine sounds fun, but I don't think I like the Oracle change... that sounds like a zerg ability to me. Not in the lore sense, just gameplay. Just doesn't feel right for toss to have that.
On October 06 2012 15:31 Xanbatou wrote: Why don't the move contaminate from the overseer to the oracle and make it a channeled ability? They should also make it actually work on all buildings. They should make it so that it cancels almost all effects of that ability.
Casting it on a supply depot could prevent it from being lowered/raised and also stop it from contributing to the supply. Casting it on a cannon would stop it from firing. Casting it on a unit producing structure or a research producing structure would stop it from producing anything.
Hell, they could even remove entomb to and make it so that if you cast this on a town hall, you can't return minerals to it.
Honestly the building phase ability the Oracle originally had was a lot more interesting/useful. Never really understood what was wrong with it...
No you can't. We just opened a game vs a CPU and tried it. There are 2 icons visible when the unit is unburrowed and neither of them has the swirl of an autocast ability, and neither of them do anything when left or right clicked right clicked except burrow the unit as normal. Edit: Clarified a bit
Man, you're understanding it in a different way. I said:
- unburrow it - you turn the unit off - burrow it - you turn the unit on
Understand? I never said about turning off autocast when it's burrowed.
Gotta love the imagination of them.. now Widow Mine is basically Swarm Host that launches banelings? and the oracle ability - didn't corruptors had something like this in WoL beta?
No you can't. We just opened a game vs a CPU and tried it. There are 2 icons visible when the unit is unburrowed and neither of them has the swirl of an autocast ability, and neither of them do anything when left or right clicked right clicked except burrow the unit as normal. Edit: Clarified a bit
Man, you're understanding it in a different way. I said:
- unburrow it - you turn the unit off - burrow it - you turn the unit on
Understand? I never said about turning off autocast when it's burrowed.
Except people WANT a way of turning off the autocast for manual targeting.
On October 06 2012 15:35 Geneq wrote: Gotta love the imagination of them.. now Widow Mine is basically Swarm Host that launches banelings? and the oracle ability - didn't corruptors had something like this in WoL beta?
The Viper also had an ability similar to this at one point.
Pillage is not a starcraft ability that I feel is fair. Mothership core I am meh about and again....just reintroduce spidermine I mean seriously it's getting a little silly now :/
I never got why Phase Shield was a random assortment of debuffs. It should've been all nondamage effects of spells. You would see easy use in every matchup. Even if OP, at least the spell would get used and we'd see what it would be like. Then you could mess with energy cost, radius, duration, etc. But instead, we gained no insight on its design because it was so obtuse. At least they're not letting go of Widow Mine and willing to add game breaking mechanics to it.
Want to know why the Siphon is especially bad? Because instead of putting in another support caster spell to keep its roles diversified, we now have 2 awkward harass spells. Yea, that's not complete overlap. There's so many ways you could make it a support caster again. How about an AoE knockback spell like Janna's ult? Or a range buff to units, or a speed buff, or whatever.
I really don't know how they can even think to release that oracle spell in this form..
I've tried vs A.I. very easy, i've done 9 damage to a depot, gained 9 minerals, and then... only sadness.. Two marines commanded by the cpu told me to leave their base... A.I.VeryEasy y u so strong at this game, why
On October 06 2012 15:40 mcmartini wrote:and again....just reintroduce spidermine I mean seriously it's getting a little silly now :/
Spider mines would be a hundred times sillier than this, IMO. The only silly thing is that mines attack other burrowed mines.
Spider mines can not attack indefinitely, require am upgrade, are used up and can create interesting strats, zealot charge + spidermine? Yes please. They can also be destroyed before reaching their target. (Not sure about this with widow mines TBH).
Except people WANT a way of turning off the autocast for manual targeting.
Then make them require Armory.
If you do that, they almost completely lose their window of usefulness. Something like a mine, be it the current widow mine or a spider mine, really only sees usefulness in early to mid game. It starts losing it's effectiveness dramatically a bit into mid game.
On October 06 2012 08:01 DMZ wrote: Widow mine seems overpowered- just need a factory for detection? Especially against banshee or DTs. It'll shut down pretty much any cloaked harass and a lot of zergling backstabs with the 40 dmg splash.. Oracle seems kind of odd. the siphon seems kind of stupid since I don't think it'll do much of an impact due to the oracle's fragility.. although in a PvP it could be useful as you could siphon on a forward pylon and punish them that way. And the mothership core nerf stops it harassing zerg bases early, since a queen can out dps it now. (I think). Course, I play zerg so this is all from an outside viewpoint..
I have no problem with this. Works just like the spidermine (minus it hitting air, I don't agree with that).
If you want to use DTs, get a halucination to go eat the widowmine then run your dts in, it's not difficult.
Also the zergling backstab thing is what the mine is designed to do. Without it, mech is awful at dealing with any kind of base race as you just can't get back before you lose all your bases due to the god awful map design. If tanks were stronger and you could actually defend areas with small amounts of tanks, it wouldn't be an issue.
How does zerg ever beat mech then? I mech becomes almost unkillable when played halfway decently. Zergling backstabs are often how a zerg has a chance to stay in the game when terran begins the doom push.
it has a range of 7. Marines have range 5 (6 in bunker). If you positon yourself well and cast at buildings near cliffs/highground they can't touch you.
On October 06 2012 15:47 mcmartini wrote: Spider mines can not attack indefinitely, require am upgrade, are used up and can create interesting strats, zealot charge + spidermine? Yes please. They can also be destroyed before reaching their target. (Not sure about this with widow mines TBH).
Why would they just copy something verbatim from BW to replace something that is entirely different? The new Widow mine is great. It is powerful, it has a clear weakness that can be exploited (one that is very reminiscent to the weakness of BW tanks), and it must be repositioned often to assure maximum efficiency. Blizzard shouldn't throw it away.
LOL I think Blizzard has really lost the plot for the Oracle and MSCore. People were complaining Oracle was too gimmicky and had no combat usage, so what do they do? Give it an even more gimmicky and useless harass option. For the cost of 50 energy you need over 15 seconds to steal enough minerals for ONE PROBE.
And making the MSCore flimsier than the old warp prisms, it will be a miracle if anybody manages to keep it alive long enough vs corruptor/viking to even get a recall in.
What was the problem with having the core attach to a nexus anyway.
Can't really judge the widow mine changes until I see them but its nice they are trying new things with it.
The thought they were heading in the right direction with HOTS but changes to Oracle show they really don't know what they are doing... Why do they need to find new ways to 'harass'? Don't they realise that traditional forms of harass are exciting because of the potential to cause real damage with good control. How is blocking up minerals or slowly stealing 3 minerals/hp a second exciting to anyone? Where is the control needed to do either of these things?
At least I can find solace in the fact that they will change the Oracle once they realise nobody will ever, ever use the Void siphon ability.
Edit: Please just scrap the Oracle, just forget about the notion of a new unit with new gimmicky useless forms of harass and start over. Maybe something from the gateway that requires a TC that is cost efficient enough to use to harass with outside the deathball, and that isn't completely useless should your enemy just decide to attack you.
oh no, i liked the non autocast so much. Stupid change, now people won't actually fear them but do exactly the same as they do with siege tanks and throw in sacrifices. Personally I hope they will add a bug like the Lurker had and allow them to hold position, so they won't reveal themself. That way they will probably hit more then an halluzination in a fight.
Ok so mothership core either needs to health increased or you need to build more than 1, I was just playing a PvZ on beta did a mothership core 2 zealot 2 stalker push a 4 min in game 3 queens instantly sniped the mothership core and I just turned around and ran home. with a bunch of ling kills and that was about it. doesn't actually seem worth it to get aggressive in PvZ with it. Marines will probably kill them just as fast,
Widow mine ability is good, although I'd prefer if it could load up a few missiles at once (maybe 2-3) with a much longer reload time after that. So the 4th missile would come out MUCH slower, but the first three would come out fairly quickly, making a minefield powerful for delay and ground-control, but less powerful in terms of sustained DPS.
It would make it possible to effectively "clear" a minefield and safely move your army through (you would have a minute or so to move through after your hallucinations/zerglings/infested terrans or whatever have cleared the minefield.
Overall though, I quite like the Widow Mine changes.
Unfortunately, the Oracle changes on the other hand...The Oracle recently received Phase Shield, probably one of the best abilities (in terms of design, not power) that Blizzard has ever come up with. It mitigated fungal growth (a terrible ability that is nevertheless necessary for balance reasons), enabling Protoss players with enough skill to combat infestor-broodlord, whilst being mostly useless for those players without the sense of timing and mechanical abilities to manage the spell. It also made the Oracle not a complete waste of money, which also made opening stargate viable in a matchup where, combined with phase shield, a toss stargate army might be able to truly compete with a zerg one in the late-game.
Now the Oracle is a decent enough harass unit that can NEVER pay for itself if zerg/terran scouts the stargate and builds a handful of static defence (two missile turrets or spore crawlers per base prevent all oracle harass on the mineral lines, meanwhile Protoss is out 300 gas (which is worse than losing a nexus) for absolutely nothing.
The oracle was an awesome unit after the last patch, now it is shit. It NEEDS some utility in battles for it to worthwhile, or it needs to be a ridiculously overpowered harass unit. Or it needs to cost only minerals. Only one of those things is a good idea, IMO.
How bliz could make such a dumb move and such a smart one (the Widow mine change is quite clever) in one patch is quite astounding.
On October 06 2012 16:26 althaz wrote: Widow mine ability is good, although I'd prefer if it could load up a few missiles at once (maybe 2-3) with a much longer reload time after that. So the 4th missile would come out MUCH slower, but the first three would come out fairly quickly, making a minefield powerful for delay and ground-control, but less powerful in terms of sustained DPS.
It would make it possible to effectively "clear" a minefield and safely move your army through (you would have a minute or so to move through after your hallucinations/zerglings/infested terrans or whatever have cleared the minefield.
Overall though, I quite like the Widow Mine changes.
Unfortunately, the Oracle changes on the other hand...The Oracle recently received Phase Shield, probably one of the best abilities (in terms of design, not power) that Blizzard has ever come up with. It mitigated fungal growth (a terrible ability that is nevertheless necessary for balance reasons), enabling Protoss players with enough skill to combat infestor-broodlord, whilst being mostly useless for those players without the sense of timing and mechanical abilities to manage the spell. It also made the Oracle not a complete waste of money, which also made opening stargate viable in a matchup where, combined with phase shield, a toss stargate army might be able to truly compete with a zerg one in the late-game.
Now the Oracle is a decent enough harass unit that can NEVER pay for itself if zerg/terran scouts the stargate and builds a handful of static defence (two missile turrets or spore crawlers per base prevent all oracle harass on the mineral lines, meanwhile Protoss is out 300 gas (which is worse than losing a nexus) for absolutely nothing.
The oracle was an awesome unit after the last patch, now it is shit. It NEEDS some utility in battles for it to worthwhile, or it needs to be a ridiculously overpowered harass unit. Or it needs to cost only minerals. Only one of those things is a good idea, IMO.
How bliz could make such a dumb move and such a smart one (the Widow mine change is quite clever) in one patch is quite astounding.
I wouldn't be surprised that they are planning on retuning fungal growth. As a result, there is no need for phase shield vs fungal. Maybe. I hope. Because it was a super cool spell on paper. Wish I had beta to mess about with it.
Widow mines are stupid strong with the balance update. You can do standard blue flame hellion harass to zerg and then add them for little cost. They 1 shot queens so you can bust the ramp and clean up the lings with ease. The burrow time is extremely quick. You can barely get a queen out of attack radius before they arm and target it down even if you react instantly. You don't need as much gas as normal mech because you don't need thors to deal with muta harass or siege tanks for roach busts.
The burrow, shoot, and leave sequence is incredible. You walk them in, activate, and micro away the ones that have shot already. It is difficult for protoss to deal with because the mines detect cloak, and burrowing them en masse makes the hard to escape from. I haven't tested to see if an observer can get to safe range before they arm, but my protoss opponents haven't been able to manage it. The mines move fast enough and are hardy enough to walk right into a stalker or voidray pack and blow them all up.
This is a fun mechanic, but definitely needs to be tuned before it will be balanced enough for release. I think increasing the burrow time, reducing the move speed, and reducing the health would at least give the opponent a chance to react in response to a mine rush. The mines feel like too much guaranteed damage,for their cost, and the supply cap hit isn't a factor during the early midgame timing well before deathball.
What a retarded patch, the Oracle still has no clear, effective goal nor is it viable as a transitional air unit to Cariers vs Terrans and the Widow Mine was, with some additional balance tweaking, the best unit addition after the Viper and Swarmhost to the game. Now we've gone back to an early game, cloaked unit that can be burrowed in opposing players mineral lines and that is an answer to cloaked units while being even more over powered vs. Mutalisks. an exploit.
Hmm...the widow mine splash damage was reduced to 40, meaning you can't even kill groups of marines with it anymore...sorta dumb. You'd expect a mine to be able to kill a group of bio units that walk over it.
Now the mine just pops up, kills 1 marine, and then your opponent is like, "LOL I C U! and scans kills the mine -_-
The mine is very cost efficient now, sadly though at 2 supply it's still the same as last patch to me - very supply inefficient when the game goes over 10-12 minutes (which is most games).
All of the feedback i gave blizzard, and other Terrans as well, was that the mine is supply inefficient. I thought they honestly should have just tested it at 1 supply and voila, it may have been great at 1 supply.
Seems like blizzard instead of reducing the supply to at least 1, has decided they're going to keep the mine just as supply inefficient as it was before, and try to basically make it more efficient by giving it cost efficiency and more of a "stays on the field" type of unit.
Which is fine, but 40 seconds reload time is too long right now...way too long. I hope they started the value at 40 seconds just as a control variable and adjust it lower from there.
On October 06 2012 16:52 Garmer wrote: so if i burrow the mines throw the missiles, then unborrow, i can by-pass the 40 sec crap reloaded?
Nope, it'll take 40 seconds to come off cool-down. Even worse, they nerfed the ability to manually control your mines. Sow now if your opponent sends in a worker or cheap unit your mine will detonate and you have to wait 40 seconds for it to be able to attack again.
They should also add back in the ability to manually target fire your mines. Puts more control in the hands of the player to micro a mech unit, just like bio units can be micro'd, precision control of mines should be possible.
So if you ask blizzard/recommend anything those are the two things I would say:
(1)Reduce the reload time of the mine from 40 seconds to whatever (2)Allow the Terran to take the mine off of auto-cast which increases the skill cap and control needed for it.
The new oracle ability seems lame. Maybe if they add a fleet beacon upgrade to let it disable the building it's draining, then it might be something cool.
New mines seem cool, but scary, I like that they will be more important to the game.
On October 06 2012 16:52 Garmer wrote: so if i burrow the mines throw the missiles, then unborrow, i can by-pass the 40 sec crap reloaded?
Nope, it'll take 40 seconds to come off cool-down. Even worse, they nerfed the ability to manually control your mines. Sow now if your opponent sends in a worker or cheap unit your mine will detonate and you have to wait 40 seconds for it to be able to attack again.
They should also add back in the ability to manually target fire your mines. Puts more control in the hands of the player to micro a mech unit, just like bio units can be micro'd, precision control of mines should be possible.
So if you ask blizzard/recommend anything those are the two things I would say:
(1)Reduce the reload time of the mine from 40 seconds to whatever (2)Allow the Terran to take the mine off of auto-cast which increases the skill cap and control needed for it.
so if i burrow the mines throw the missiles, then unborrow, i can by-pass the 40 sec crap reloaded?
The 40 second timer starts as soon as the missile throws, and you can't bypass it by burrowing and unburrowing. The timer continues to count down while unburrowed however, so you can shoot and re-position while on cd.
On October 06 2012 17:00 Garmer wrote: this is ridiculous and stupid, very stupid
Why would the timer just reset when you unburrowed your mine? Be glad that you can unburrow at all while the cooldown is active. The only thing I would agree with is that manual targeting should be reimplemented, at the cost of being unable to target cloaked units.
On October 06 2012 16:26 althaz wrote: Widow mine ability is good, although I'd prefer if it could load up a few missiles at once (maybe 2-3) with a much longer reload time after that. So the 4th missile would come out MUCH slower, but the first three would come out fairly quickly, making a minefield powerful for delay and ground-control, but less powerful in terms of sustained DPS.
It would make it possible to effectively "clear" a minefield and safely move your army through (you would have a minute or so to move through after your hallucinations/zerglings/infested terrans or whatever have cleared the minefield.
Overall though, I quite like the Widow Mine changes.
Unfortunately, the Oracle changes on the other hand...The Oracle recently received Phase Shield, probably one of the best abilities (in terms of design, not power) that Blizzard has ever come up with. It mitigated fungal growth (a terrible ability that is nevertheless necessary for balance reasons), enabling Protoss players with enough skill to combat infestor-broodlord, whilst being mostly useless for those players without the sense of timing and mechanical abilities to manage the spell. It also made the Oracle not a complete waste of money, which also made opening stargate viable in a matchup where, combined with phase shield, a toss stargate army might be able to truly compete with a zerg one in the late-game.
Now the Oracle is a decent enough harass unit that can NEVER pay for itself if zerg/terran scouts the stargate and builds a handful of static defence (two missile turrets or spore crawlers per base prevent all oracle harass on the mineral lines, meanwhile Protoss is out 300 gas (which is worse than losing a nexus) for absolutely nothing.
The oracle was an awesome unit after the last patch, now it is shit. It NEEDS some utility in battles for it to worthwhile, or it needs to be a ridiculously overpowered harass unit. Or it needs to cost only minerals. Only one of those things is a good idea, IMO.
How bliz could make such a dumb move and such a smart one (the Widow mine change is quite clever) in one patch is quite astounding.
Pretty much this, it seems to me that Blizzard don't know what they are doing, or lack some kind of underlying philosophy with what they are trying to accomplish. They're doing both good and bad things with this patch, but I just don't really see any logical progression, it's just throwing stuff out there to see what sticks. Perhaps people feel I'm being harsh.
While everybody was rejoicing about the return of the carrier, I myself loved the design potential of phase shield. It gave the oracle a bit of utility and synergy with the rest of the army from the period in which its harassment potential was generally countered by static defences and the likes.
I really don't get why they just straight got rid if an interesting ability. The only ability in the game incidentally that could make pure airtoss actually viable by mitigating the godawful catch-all spell that is fungal. The replacement ability is close to useless which makes it even more disappointing.
Just when I thought it couldnt get weirder Blizzard surpr... disappoints me.
The Widow Mine is really terrible and it has become a sort of Swarm Host now (launching a "free unit" every 40 seconds) in becoming a burrowed missile launcher with a slow ass fire rate. If the Widow Mine still is able to act as a mine itself this seems a bit much, because you get two lines of defense from that killing a few initial Banelings with Missiles and then getting the rest with blowing up themselves. At 160 single target damage the missile deals the highest amount of instant single target damage in the game I believe ... plus a small AoE effect. I wonder how much it gets bigger from upgrades.
The new Oracle idea is stupid, because gathering resources from damaging buildings seems a bit odd. In any case this feels like a revamped MULE (getting minerals for energy) without the need to gather from a node. I wonder if you can aim this at your own buildings, but since they specifically mention opponent buildings I hope they didnt make this mistake. The ability also costs a flat amount of 50 energy and lasts until cancelled. Whoever came up with that stupid idea?
On October 06 2012 16:26 althaz wrote: Widow mine ability is good, although I'd prefer if it could load up a few missiles at once (maybe 2-3) with a much longer reload time after that. So the 4th missile would come out MUCH slower, but the first three would come out fairly quickly, making a minefield powerful for delay and ground-control, but less powerful in terms of sustained DPS.
It would make it possible to effectively "clear" a minefield and safely move your army through (you would have a minute or so to move through after your hallucinations/zerglings/infested terrans or whatever have cleared the minefield.
Overall though, I quite like the Widow Mine changes.
Unfortunately, the Oracle changes on the other hand...The Oracle recently received Phase Shield, probably one of the best abilities (in terms of design, not power) that Blizzard has ever come up with. It mitigated fungal growth (a terrible ability that is nevertheless necessary for balance reasons), enabling Protoss players with enough skill to combat infestor-broodlord, whilst being mostly useless for those players without the sense of timing and mechanical abilities to manage the spell. It also made the Oracle not a complete waste of money, which also made opening stargate viable in a matchup where, combined with phase shield, a toss stargate army might be able to truly compete with a zerg one in the late-game.
Now the Oracle is a decent enough harass unit that can NEVER pay for itself if zerg/terran scouts the stargate and builds a handful of static defence (two missile turrets or spore crawlers per base prevent all oracle harass on the mineral lines, meanwhile Protoss is out 300 gas (which is worse than losing a nexus) for absolutely nothing.
The oracle was an awesome unit after the last patch, now it is shit. It NEEDS some utility in battles for it to worthwhile, or it needs to be a ridiculously overpowered harass unit. Or it needs to cost only minerals. Only one of those things is a good idea, IMO.
How bliz could make such a dumb move and such a smart one (the Widow mine change is quite clever) in one patch is quite astounding.
Pretty much this, it seems to me that Blizzard don't know what they are doing, or lack some kind of underlying philosophy with what they are trying to accomplish. They're doing both good and bad things with this patch, but I just don't really see any logical progression, it's just throwing stuff out there to see what sticks. Perhaps people feel I'm being harsh.
While everybody was rejoicing about the return of the carrier, I myself loved the design potential of phase shield. It gave the oracle a bit of utility and synergy with the rest of the army from the period in which its harassment potential was generally countered by static defences and the likes.
I really don't get why they just straight got rid if an interesting ability. The only ability in the game incidentally that could make pure airtoss actually viable by mitigating the godawful catch-all spell that is fungal. The replacement ability is close to useless which makes it even more disappointing.
Phase shield has exactly one purpose: Counter fungal.
I think Fungal needs to be reworked pretty significantly, rather than such a specific spell added to the game that's useless against all units but one.
Void Siphon is pretty lame, though. I'd rather it be an AOE thing cast on the oracle itself, where you'd fly around and did the damage/mineral thing to any enemy building the Oracle came close to for 30 seconds. That's a much more dynamic version of the same idea.
On October 06 2012 16:26 althaz wrote: Widow mine ability is good, although I'd prefer if it could load up a few missiles at once (maybe 2-3) with a much longer reload time after that. So the 4th missile would come out MUCH slower, but the first three would come out fairly quickly, making a minefield powerful for delay and ground-control, but less powerful in terms of sustained DPS.
It would make it possible to effectively "clear" a minefield and safely move your army through (you would have a minute or so to move through after your hallucinations/zerglings/infested terrans or whatever have cleared the minefield.
Overall though, I quite like the Widow Mine changes.
Unfortunately, the Oracle changes on the other hand...The Oracle recently received Phase Shield, probably one of the best abilities (in terms of design, not power) that Blizzard has ever come up with. It mitigated fungal growth (a terrible ability that is nevertheless necessary for balance reasons), enabling Protoss players with enough skill to combat infestor-broodlord, whilst being mostly useless for those players without the sense of timing and mechanical abilities to manage the spell. It also made the Oracle not a complete waste of money, which also made opening stargate viable in a matchup where, combined with phase shield, a toss stargate army might be able to truly compete with a zerg one in the late-game.
Now the Oracle is a decent enough harass unit that can NEVER pay for itself if zerg/terran scouts the stargate and builds a handful of static defence (two missile turrets or spore crawlers per base prevent all oracle harass on the mineral lines, meanwhile Protoss is out 300 gas (which is worse than losing a nexus) for absolutely nothing.
The oracle was an awesome unit after the last patch, now it is shit. It NEEDS some utility in battles for it to worthwhile, or it needs to be a ridiculously overpowered harass unit. Or it needs to cost only minerals. Only one of those things is a good idea, IMO.
How bliz could make such a dumb move and such a smart one (the Widow mine change is quite clever) in one patch is quite astounding.
Pretty much this, it seems to me that Blizzard don't know what they are doing, or lack some kind of underlying philosophy with what they are trying to accomplish. They're doing both good and bad things with this patch, but I just don't really see any logical progression, it's just throwing stuff out there to see what sticks. Perhaps people feel I'm being harsh.
While everybody was rejoicing about the return of the carrier, I myself loved the design potential of phase shield. It gave the oracle a bit of utility and synergy with the rest of the army from the period in which its harassment potential was generally countered by static defences and the likes.
I really don't get why they just straight got rid if an interesting ability. The only ability in the game incidentally that could make pure airtoss actually viable by mitigating the godawful catch-all spell that is fungal. The replacement ability is close to useless which makes it even more disappointing.
Phase shield has exactly one purpose: Counter fungal.
I think Fungal needs to be reworked pretty significantly, rather than such a specific spell added to the game that's useless against all units but one.
Void Siphon is pretty lame, though. I'd rather it be an AOE thing cast on the oracle itself, where you'd fly around and did the damage/mineral thing to any enemy building the Oracle came close to for 30 seconds. That's a much more dynamic version of the same idea.
This. At first I liked the idea behind the phase shield, but then... very gimmicky, rewards clumping, design flaw because the oracle its not intended to work with an army due to his low hp. At the end, with phase shield, the fungal can still in the game like in wol because "hey p, do an oracle and you will be fine" .. no, fungal needs a rework.
The siphon its pretty sad. Even if they buff it, its a T2 3.5 speed unit, with a 7Range spell.. cant be strong without be op in early, and unusefull in lategame. The original idea behind the oracle is way different, its something like "white weapon harass" .. not meant to deal damage. Why dont try the phase shift again? The disruptor web or what was.. was way better.
On October 06 2012 17:08 Rabiator wrote: Just when I thought it couldnt get weirder Blizzard surpr... disappoints me.
The Widow Mine is really terrible and it has become a sort of Swarm Host now (launching a "free unit" every 40 seconds) in becoming a burrowed missile launcher with a slow ass fire rate. If the Widow Mine still is able to act as a mine itself this seems a bit much, because you get two lines of defense from that killing a few initial Banelings with Missiles and then getting the rest with blowing up themselves. At 160 single target damage the missile deals the highest amount of instant single target damage in the game I believe ... plus a small AoE effect. I wonder how much it gets bigger from upgrades.
The new Oracle idea is stupid, because gathering resources from damaging buildings seems a bit odd. In any case this feels like a revamped MULE (getting minerals for energy) without the need to gather from a node. I wonder if you can aim this at your own buildings, but since they specifically mention opponent buildings I hope they didnt make this mistake. The ability also costs a flat amount of 50 energy and lasts until cancelled. Whoever came up with that stupid idea?
The Widow mine cannot act as a mine itself, that would be ridiculous. And it does not benefit from upgrades either. Regarding Void Siphon, I'm pretty sure it's going to be removed next week, so don't fret.
On October 06 2012 17:14 nenshoua wrote: If you want proper testing send more invites to master and gm players for pete sake...most pros dont even bother with the beta anymore...
It would help to have the beta tested on KNOWN MAPS instead of totally new ones (which are probably smaller than most GSL maps) as well. That way the players dont have to learn units AND figure out the maps.
On October 06 2012 16:26 althaz wrote: Widow mine ability is good, although I'd prefer if it could load up a few missiles at once (maybe 2-3) with a much longer reload time after that. So the 4th missile would come out MUCH slower, but the first three would come out fairly quickly, making a minefield powerful for delay and ground-control, but less powerful in terms of sustained DPS.
It would make it possible to effectively "clear" a minefield and safely move your army through (you would have a minute or so to move through after your hallucinations/zerglings/infested terrans or whatever have cleared the minefield.
Overall though, I quite like the Widow Mine changes.
Unfortunately, the Oracle changes on the other hand...The Oracle recently received Phase Shield, probably one of the best abilities (in terms of design, not power) that Blizzard has ever come up with. It mitigated fungal growth (a terrible ability that is nevertheless necessary for balance reasons), enabling Protoss players with enough skill to combat infestor-broodlord, whilst being mostly useless for those players without the sense of timing and mechanical abilities to manage the spell. It also made the Oracle not a complete waste of money, which also made opening stargate viable in a matchup where, combined with phase shield, a toss stargate army might be able to truly compete with a zerg one in the late-game.
Now the Oracle is a decent enough harass unit that can NEVER pay for itself if zerg/terran scouts the stargate and builds a handful of static defence (two missile turrets or spore crawlers per base prevent all oracle harass on the mineral lines, meanwhile Protoss is out 300 gas (which is worse than losing a nexus) for absolutely nothing.
The oracle was an awesome unit after the last patch, now it is shit. It NEEDS some utility in battles for it to worthwhile, or it needs to be a ridiculously overpowered harass unit. Or it needs to cost only minerals. Only one of those things is a good idea, IMO.
How bliz could make such a dumb move and such a smart one (the Widow mine change is quite clever) in one patch is quite astounding.
Pretty much this, it seems to me that Blizzard don't know what they are doing, or lack some kind of underlying philosophy with what they are trying to accomplish. They're doing both good and bad things with this patch, but I just don't really see any logical progression, it's just throwing stuff out there to see what sticks. Perhaps people feel I'm being harsh.
While everybody was rejoicing about the return of the carrier, I myself loved the design potential of phase shield. It gave the oracle a bit of utility and synergy with the rest of the army from the period in which its harassment potential was generally countered by static defences and the likes.
I really don't get why they just straight got rid if an interesting ability. The only ability in the game incidentally that could make pure airtoss actually viable by mitigating the godawful catch-all spell that is fungal. The replacement ability is close to useless which makes it even more disappointing.
Phase shield has exactly one purpose: Counter fungal.
I think Fungal needs to be reworked pretty significantly, rather than such a specific spell added to the game that's useless against all units but one.
Void Siphon is pretty lame, though. I'd rather it be an AOE thing cast on the oracle itself, where you'd fly around and did the damage/mineral thing to any enemy building the Oracle came close to for 30 seconds. That's a much more dynamic version of the same idea.
This. At first I liked the idea behind the phase shield, but then... very gimmicky, rewards clumping, design flaw because the oracle its not intended to work with an army due to his low hp. At the end, with phase shield, the fungal can still in the game like in wol because "hey p, do an oracle and you will be fine" .. no, fungal needs a rework.
The siphon its pretty sad. Even if they buff it, its a T2 3.5 speed unit, with a 7Range spell.. cant be strong without be op in early, and unusefull in lategame. The original idea behind the oracle is way different, its something like "white weapon harass" .. not meant to deal damage. Why dont try the phase shift again? The disruptor web or what was.. was way better.
Well for me the preferable option is a fungal rework, but I really don't see Blizzard doing this at present. Option B, giving Protoss some kind of anti-fungal ability would be better than giving us nothing at all.
I don't see why the Oracle has to be near-useless in the lategame. As it is at the minute, Protoss harassment via warp-prisms is already pretty potent vs Zergs. As HerO vs Leenock game 3 in this GSL exemplified though, no amount of harassment will pull you out of the fire if the Bl/Infestor composition is already established. Indeed as it stands, I really don't see the Oracle having any advantages over Phoenixes in harassment capability alone.
Stargate tech is pretty much bad outside of the opening 10/11 minutes of most games I see, even in PvZ where it is most common. Fungals shutdown phoenixes and voids pretty hard and there really isn't synergy with gateway armies for the most part. It's this that cripples airtoss, give the Oracle something good in a combat/support capacity and we'll potentially see more smooth Protoss air builds. It's not as if we're asking for a really powerful unit like an Arbiter, just something that dovetails better with what we already have.
That said, I'm sure changes in the style of PvZ will come about regardless, given that mothership core/gate expands may enable us to do more pressure in the early game. The standard FFE vs 3 hatch that we see nearly every series may be shaken up, and from there a lot of the flow of the matchup may be radically different.
Has anybody yet gotten a fast widow mine in the enemies mineral line with the new patch? I saw morrow do this on the old patch: proxy factory, lift in the main of Protoss, build a widow mine, go for probes
now with the new widow mine, wouldn't that be too hard to deal with for a protoss? If you have no Robo down, it takes you 80-95 seconds to get observers (85 for a canon) from this point on. Even if you sac a probe to assure mining for another 30-40 seconds, you get at least 3probe kills and a lot of lost mining time like that.
On October 06 2012 17:05 Ribbon wrote: I like how the Widow Mine has been turned into another type of siege tank. It's a much mechier unit now.
Yeah, I think people are focusing a bit too much on the details and not appreciating the actual design change of the unit. Dismissing it as stupid because the cooldown time is too long or whatever is rather silly. Yes, the numbers need to be tweaked, but I think a lot of people would agree that the fundamental design of the unit is MUCH better than it was before, and certainly now worthy of a unit that costs supply.
I will agree with lots of the criticisms in this thread so far about the particular number associated with the new design, but that's a much easier fix than overhauling actual design of the unit.
The MsC is in a similar place, I think. I'm not a fan of no longer having it attach to the Nexus for Purify again, but maybe it will end up working out. Again, the overall design intent of the unit is in a pretty good spot, though some numbers obviously still need tweaking...like 13 range.
The Oracle, however....Blizz wtf? Entomb I think is a decent idea that can find a sweet spot by tweaking it's numbers, but the vision spell is questionable at best. In the case of Void Siphon...it's less than questionable, really. What the hell was wrong with the ability that let the Oracle phase a building out for a certain time? That opens up a whole host of options like using the Oracle to directly stall production time on key units and upgrades, or as a Warp Prism support to phase out turrets so that drops can still be effective late game and give your opponent some more risk when moving out.
I do find it a bit funny that with the "Zerg" expansion, hardly anyone is talking about the Zerg units and abilities anymore...lol
On October 06 2012 17:56 Big J wrote: Has anybody yet gotten a fast widow mine in the enemies mineral line with the new patch? I saw morrow do this on the old patch: proxy factory, lift in the main of Protoss, build a widow mine, go for probes
now with the new widow mine, wouldn't that be too hard to deal with for a protoss? If you have no Robo down, it takes you 80-95 seconds to get observers (85 for a canon) from this point on. Even if you sac a probe to assure mining for another 30-40 seconds, you get at least 3probe kills and a lot of lost mining time like that.
Just a thought
I've been doing that for the last 3 hours or so...
It doesn't even matter if they spot the factory, because you can at least shit out one of them before the building blows up, and the mine moves really fast and has enough life to survive stalker + core fire. Once that mine is somewhere near the mineral line, you get to eat 3+ probes for free every cooldown. If your opponent is tricky about it, he can move away his probes and leave only one to get blown up, but still...it's nuts. If you get more than one mine in his mineral lines, he's 100% fucked.
Oh, and if you absolutely cannot get that mine to the mineral field, it can burrow fast enough to get a guaranteed zealot kill.
On October 06 2012 17:05 Ribbon wrote: I like how the Widow Mine has been turned into another type of siege tank. It's a much mechier unit now.
Yeah, I think people are focusing a bit too much on the details and not appreciating the actual design change of the unit. Dismissing it as stupid because the cooldown time is too long or whatever is rather silly. Yes, the numbers need to be tweaked, but I think a lot of people would agree that the fundamental design of the unit is MUCH better than it was before, and certainly now worthy of a unit that costs supply.
I will agree with lots of the criticisms in this thread so far about the particular number associated with the new design, but that's a much easier fix than overhauling actual design of the unit.
No ... Starcraft doesnt have many units per side and you dont want to have two which perform a similar job. There have been quite a few units already which were scrapped because of this. Not only is the Widow Mine performing like the Siege Tank (ranged AoE), but it also performs like the Swarm Host (spawning free sources of damage regularly while being burrowed). Terrible concept no matter how good/balanced it is.
the new oracle spell sounds pretty weird. how is this ever going to be useful? it dies way too fast to do the ability longer than maybe 5-10 seconds and then you get 15-30 minerals. why wouldnt you just wait for 75 energy and do entomb instead? it just relies on the opponent to build something at the edge of his base and then there needs to be a lot of dead space behind it. make it harvest gas or something because thats what protoss really needs. otherwise it just overlaps too much with entomb and it is also very gimmicky imo.
On October 06 2012 17:05 Ribbon wrote: I like how the Widow Mine has been turned into another type of siege tank. It's a much mechier unit now.
Yeah, I think people are focusing a bit too much on the details and not appreciating the actual design change of the unit. Dismissing it as stupid because the cooldown time is too long or whatever is rather silly. Yes, the numbers need to be tweaked, but I think a lot of people would agree that the fundamental design of the unit is MUCH better than it was before, and certainly now worthy of a unit that costs supply.
I will agree with lots of the criticisms in this thread so far about the particular number associated with the new design, but that's a much easier fix than overhauling actual design of the unit.
No ... Starcraft doesnt have many units per side and you dont want to have two which perform a similar job. There have been quite a few units already which were scrapped because of this. Not only is the Widow Mine performing like the Siege Tank (ranged AoE), but it also performs like the Swarm Host (spawning free sources of damage regularly while being burrowed). Terrible concept no matter how good/balanced it is.
I disagree. Is there some overlap? Yes, I will admit there is a bit. But Siege Tanks have much longer range, and Swarm Hosts don't do nearly the burst that Widow Mines now do. There are also things you can do with Widow Mines that you can't do with either of the other units, like drops. Unlike with Siege Tanks, you can surprise an opponent by mining certain attack paths while you move out with your main army. With Siege Tanks being 3 supply now in SC2, I think Widow Mines will end up being much more effective on defense which should allow you to have most if not all of your tanks join the main army.
I just think that the new Widow Mines in general make meching a lot more flexible and viable than it was before.
oracle siphon yes!! I really like the evening up of the base-trade options
ie. terran with 1 OC can come back, now so can a toss with 1 probe and 1 oracle. Actually it would be funny if you void syphon'd mutually with an opponent so you could both get back in the game (or when the map was mined out, just have 10 oracles = 30mins per scond = 1800 minerals per minute. 1800 = 1 nexus so about 1400 minerals a minute, from nothing~
wtf .. i dunno why blizzard specified that mines can hit cloaked units.. i've done a game, with 2 robo pumping out observer just to be sure to not be wrecked outside my base.. its just silly ... not to mention the early game phase..
On October 06 2012 18:28 Chronopolis wrote: oracle siphon yes!! I really like the evening up of the base-trade options
ie. terran with 1 OC can come back, now so can a toss with 1 probe and 1 oracle. Actually it would be funny if you void syphon'd mutually with an opponent so you could both get back in the game (or when the map was mined out, just have 10 oracles = 30mins per scond = 1800 minerals per minute. 1800 = 1 nexus so about 1400 minerals a minute, from nothing~
I'm glad that retards can now sign up on forums and debate. Maybe its just me or the moderation should enlight when a low QI poster makes a debut on patch notes.
On October 06 2012 18:43 Sabu113 wrote: From the people who brought you warhounds....
Widow mines!
edit: God they really like gutting Toss. Kinda disturbed they didn't have SOME units in mind before the beta.
Yup Toss is 95% the exact same race, Mothership core isn't that useful anymore either, Have to go Robo every game to not die to Burrow/Widow mines. Oracle is a useless hunk of junk that costs a bunch of gas. Don't even get me started on the Tempest. I have played around 20 beta games and I just got it today. I get wrecked by Widow mine builds since you have to baby sit your observers and every terran goes widow mine marine all-in and PvZ is almost the same thing with a couple swarm hosts sprinkled in, You can get somewhat aggressive but queens deal with the new MSC very well and can hit it during recall.
On October 06 2012 18:49 SigmaoctanusIV wrote: Have to go Robo every game to not die to Burrow/Widow mines. Oracle is a useless hunk of junk that costs a bunch of gas.
If I had to choose leaving oracle in dead space before it gains energy for entomb OR siphoning a building for 50 energy and 3dmg/s, I would definitely choose the first option, even if I could siphon that building from 7 range and don't get hit by anything in that time (revealing oracle position)
MsC... whatever, no one really cares that much.
so yeah...
at least we get a good change to the mine, but I don't like it having 40 splash dmg, widow mine drops = reaver drops? 1 shotting workers
The removal of Phase shield is really bad. Some people are arguing it makes it so that Protoss Death Ball play is removed, but that was never the problem. The Infestor Broodlord Composition is the problem, because even if you didn't build a Death Ball all game (which means you were either making not enough units to max out or were losing units in a non-cost effective manner that prevented you from maxing out) Fungal Growth still absolutely destroys your army. Zerg doesn't even need to A-Click because BL's pretty much just work once something's been fungaled.
Either remove Fungal's root or give us back Phase Shield, this patch was terrible. Or make it so Carriers are useful, if Tyler's idea of the Carrier was implimented and the build time of Carriers was reduced, then maybe, MAYBE this patch would be okay, but Funals still massacre interceptors.
Also random question, why does Fungal even hit air units? Corruptors are super good vs everything Protoss can make that flies, do we really need something else to make it that much worse? Or can't Fungal Growth be like FF's and just not work vs Massive or something to make that spell less OP that it already is?
EMP was maybe a quarter as bad as Fungal Growth is and Blizz nerfed the hell out of it, why can't they do the same to Fungal?
On October 06 2012 18:59 SaintEaon wrote: Also random question, why does Fungal even hit air units? Corruptors are super good vs everything Protoss can make that flies, do we really need something else to make it that much worse? Or can't Fungal Growth be like FF's and just not work vs Massive or something to make that spell less OP that it already is?
We had that in one patch in WoL beta and ZvZ was just a muta fest, stopping drops in ZvT was 'too hard' or something too. But HotS might be a good time to change that.
I'm seriously worried about widow mine drops... sure they need 2 seconds to burrow, but compared to storm drops I think it's just as good or better.
So at least vs Protoss or Terran we have time to build detection vs them that they don't kill and they can keep their auto-fire ability and our response would just be feedback or EMP that way we can still do builds, and Terrans can still use Widow Mines to control space (because then you'd have to dedicate resources to kill the mines specifically), however Widow Mine Rushes don't just win because they can kill observers and burrow in 2 seconds. There actually has to be some tact and planning that goes into using them.
Also Fungaling Drops doesn't do anything unless you catch the drop outside of your base because you can still unload while fungaled. Likewise fungals at any point in a Medivac's life just beat it, Medivacs require 75% energy to die to Feedback. Also who cares? ZvZ's never not been a joke, Ling/Bling/Roach is so much better than Mutas only...except the part where all-ins are just standard in ZvZ. They want to make ZvZ a real match up they need to make it so Zerg has some ability to defend.
And yeah should definitely revert Fungal's ability to hit air, I'm not even sure why they thought that would work vs Mutas. It takes five perfect fungals to kill a Mutalisk. Zergs with Muta problems should learn from HerO/Taeja, when Mutas move in, you just hit them harder elsewhere and force the mutas to pull back. All that map control and scouting and stuff.
On October 06 2012 19:09 SaintEaon wrote: Widow Mines should be changed to
Requires Armory Has more energy than life
So at least vs Protoss or Terran we have time to build detection vs them that they don't kill and they can keep their auto-fire ability and our response would just be feedback or EMP that way we can still do builds, and Terrans can still use Widow Mines to control space (because then you'd have to dedicate resources to kill the mines specifically), however Widow Mine Rushes don't just win because they can kill observers and burrow in 2 seconds. There actually has to be some tact and planning that goes into using them.
I think that mines have less than 80hp, so storming is fine (they don't move, and storm has 5< range)
I still don't get a lot of the changes. The MsC was thought as an defensive structure which became a unit which can be used offensive. The Widow Mine was thought as space control but I guess drops with these mines would be pretty strong. I do not think that Terran needs another harass ability as well as I do not think that Protoss needs an unit which can used as an offensive support unit in early-/midgame. And what about Zerg? No new changes or tries to make the race much more dynamic? What about the Corrupter? Now that its ability is given the Oracle I hope Blizz has some new ideas to make it more effective. I really hope for some changes/tries for Zerg in the next patch.
On October 06 2012 19:09 SaintEaon wrote: Widow Mines should be changed to
Requires Armory Has more energy than life
So at least vs Protoss or Terran we have time to build detection vs them that they don't kill and they can keep their auto-fire ability and our response would just be feedback or EMP that way we can still do builds, and Terrans can still use Widow Mines to control space (because then you'd have to dedicate resources to kill the mines specifically), however Widow Mine Rushes don't just win because they can kill observers and burrow in 2 seconds. There actually has to be some tact and planning that goes into using them.
I think that mines have less than 80hp, so storming is fine (they don't move, and storm has 5< range)
Yeah lets use my storms on the Mines so that way the MMM can just kill me. Love the way that sounds.
I'm seriously worried about widow mine drops... sure they need 2 seconds to burrow, but compared to storm drops I think it's just as good or better.
Is there a problem with the possibility that they are just as good as ht drops?
HT Drop: Time it takes to build a gate, cybercore, twilight council, templar archives, research storm, have templars with storm, build a Robo, make a Warp Prisim and get to the opponent's base. HT's don't have cloak, are mauled by EMPs.
Widow Mine Drop: Time it takes to build a barracks. Time it takes to build a factory. Time it takes to build a Starport. Time it takes to make a widow mine and a medivac. Time it takes to get to opponent's base. Gets to opponents base, cloaks after 2 seconds can kill probes, units, and detection.
Window Mine Drops may take a second or two longer, but they're so much more cost effective its not even funny.
On October 06 2012 19:09 SaintEaon wrote: Widow Mines should be changed to
Requires Armory Has more energy than life
So at least vs Protoss or Terran we have time to build detection vs them that they don't kill and they can keep their auto-fire ability and our response would just be feedback or EMP that way we can still do builds, and Terrans can still use Widow Mines to control space (because then you'd have to dedicate resources to kill the mines specifically), however Widow Mine Rushes don't just win because they can kill observers and burrow in 2 seconds. There actually has to be some tact and planning that goes into using them.
I think that mines have less than 80hp, so storming is fine (they don't move, and storm has 5< range)
Yeah lets use my storms on the Mines so that way the MMM can just kill me. Love the way that sounds.
@Protoss proclaiming you need a robo to move out of your base, especially that picture of the widow mines on the ramp... Why not get a cannon like Terran get a turret at the front to stop DTs?
On October 06 2012 19:19 Qikz wrote: @Protoss proclaiming you need a robo to move out of your base, especially that picture of the widow mines on the ramp... Why not get a cannon like Terran get a turret at the front to stop DTs?
Because then they just burrow them a few inches back from the cannon and you are still fucked? Geez man use your brain...
On October 06 2012 18:59 SaintEaon wrote: Also random question, why does Fungal even hit air units? Corruptors are super good vs everything Protoss can make that flies, do we really need something else to make it that much worse.
Because then there would be a reason to spawn Hydras, and we can't have that.
On October 06 2012 19:19 Qikz wrote: @Protoss proclaiming you need a robo to move out of your base, especially that picture of the widow mines on the ramp... Why not get a cannon like Terran get a turret at the front to stop DTs?
You still need mobile detection to move out or else your army just gets owned after they leave the cannon sight range
On October 06 2012 19:19 Qikz wrote: @Protoss proclaiming you need a robo to move out of your base, especially that picture of the widow mines on the ramp... Why not get a cannon like Terran get a turret at the front to stop DTs?
Well, if you get cannons you can't be aggressive, and you cannot be greedy either, it's not like we can make 2 more nexi in base and float them over. And if in HotS protoss won't be able to even move out of his base without robo, then I'm a sad panda.
Obviously we have no idea how will it work and what the balance will be.
Void Siphon is useless. There are no numbers that are going to make that ability worth using UNLESS it is the oracle's base attack and benefits from upgrades like a Raider from Warcraft 3 ie. it attacks at 5 damage with a 1s cooldown but drains 3 minerals per second when attacking buildings. Putting it on energy just makes you trade energy for minerals and Phase Shield is always going to come out ahead.
Instead I'd like to see something unique to the Protoss.
Void Pylon (100 energy) - creates a static pylon with 100 shields at a location with 100 energy which allows the instant restoration of shields at a rate of 2 shields per 1 energy. Can autocast. Range 9.
I'd also like to see Phase Shield encase units with the same effect (100HP shield or so), rather than buildings and have a much smaller range - 1.5 or so and disable actions other than moving. That'd give it the same harassment ability without making micro suck against it like Fungal Win.
On October 06 2012 19:19 Qikz wrote: @Protoss proclaiming you need a robo to move out of your base, especially that picture of the widow mines on the ramp... Why not get a cannon like Terran get a turret at the front to stop DTs?
Are you planning on building cannons all the way across the map? The problem isn't Widow Mines in your base but outside your base.
On October 06 2012 19:19 Qikz wrote: @Protoss proclaiming you need a robo to move out of your base, especially that picture of the widow mines on the ramp... Why not get a cannon like Terran get a turret at the front to stop DTs?
Are you planning on building cannons all the way across the map? The problem isn't Widow Mines in your base but outside your base.
Does the oracle still have pre-ordain or whatever it was called? If I remember rightly couldn't that work as a mobile detector in the same vein as the observer?
On October 06 2012 19:09 SaintEaon wrote: Widow Mines should be changed to
Requires Armory Has more energy than life
So at least vs Protoss or Terran we have time to build detection vs them that they don't kill and they can keep their auto-fire ability and our response would just be feedback or EMP that way we can still do builds, and Terrans can still use Widow Mines to control space (because then you'd have to dedicate resources to kill the mines specifically), however Widow Mine Rushes don't just win because they can kill observers and burrow in 2 seconds. There actually has to be some tact and planning that goes into using them.
I think that mines have less than 80hp, so storming is fine (they don't move, and storm has 5< range)
Yeah lets use my storms on the Mines so that way the MMM can just kill me. Love the way that sounds.
I'm seriously worried about widow mine drops... sure they need 2 seconds to burrow, but compared to storm drops I think it's just as good or better.
Is there a problem with the possibility that they are just as good as ht drops?
Possibly, not necessarily. But now that I think about it, a cannon or two should deal with that no problem.
Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.
I'm just saying before the Oracle changes they were at least useful. Vs Terran you could prevent those stupid all-ins where they pull ALL of their SCVs and just stream marines because Mules can't attack so Entomb was very effective.
Vs Zerg when late game came around you could combat infestors, fungals still did damage but they didn't prevent your army from being able to move or cast spells, which is my biggest complaint with fungal, its super hard to feed back your 15 infestors with my 5 HTs when F-click-click-click-click across my entire army hits all my units and I can't even feedback anymore, meanwhile the other supply that's all Broodlords picks apart anything I made.
New Oracle is 100% useless unless its against a Terran All In where they pull all of their SCVs. Thanks Bliz, I needed that!
On October 06 2012 19:40 SaintEaon wrote: Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.
Observers aren't killed easily if they stay out of range.
And you're right, Revelation is great against Widow mines. I'm fine with the new design.
I am kind of perplexed at the removal of phase shield for void siphon. The reasoning is not solid enough, its gonna take more time to see more use, and I definitely think its got more 'fun' and strategic value than void siphon which is 'new' but it already has the mineral block. Think outside the box at least lol.
Edit: Also, weren't they trying to get the Oracle to be used as part of the core army? How the hell does Void Siphon do that? :X
A little odd is all, everything else was alright though.
On October 06 2012 18:59 SaintEaon wrote: Also random question, why does Fungal even hit air units? Corruptors are super good vs everything Protoss can make that flies, do we really need something else to make it that much worse.
Because then there would be a reason to spawn Hydras, and we can't have that.
Why would you build hydras? It takes 1-2mins until your opponent realizes that you gave up after you start going for them, just write gg like everybody else!
On October 06 2012 19:40 SaintEaon wrote: Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.
Observers aren't killed easily if they stay out of range.
And you're right, Revelation is great against Widow mines. I'm fine with the new design.
Observers aren't easily killed vs like one mine. Vs like I don't know 10 suddenly it becomes a chore to clean widow mines up and if you're not paying attention they do kill Observers easily.
Observer: 40HP 20 Shields Sight: 11
Stalker: Range 6
Widow Mine: Payload Damage: 160, Splash 40
In short, it will cost me probably 1 unit at the very least to discover one of the mines, you can get mines faster. Mines that directly hit an Observer will kill it INSTANTLY, Observers hit with splash damage take 2 hits. In short Observers are very easily killed by one mine, but no one just builds one mine because that'd be a waste of resources, if you're going mines you'll probably have 5 plus, in which case I now have to watch my positioning while dealing with an easily acquired non-static defensive unit that detracts from my over all unit composition.
There is no cost effective way to deal with widow mines, other than maybe an Oracle, but after its nerf that's debatable too. In fact the only justification for going Oracles vs Terran now is you wanted to slow their mineral production down while you teched to a mothership to make Zeal Archon for an Archon toilet late game.
On October 06 2012 19:59 Salient wrote: What if the widow mine kept its new stats, but couldn't be loaded into a medivac?
Then people would question why mines can't be in a Medivac but a Thor can. I know I'm arguing against the mines a lot, but I actually don't care that much about them, I'm more pissed we lost Phase Shield.
On October 06 2012 19:29 Evangelist wrote: Void Siphon is useless. There are no numbers that are going to make that ability worth using UNLESS it is the oracle's base attack and benefits from upgrades like a Raider from Warcraft 3 ie. it attacks at 5 damage with a 1s cooldown but drains 3 minerals per second when attacking buildings. Putting it on energy just makes you trade energy for minerals and Phase Shield is always going to come out ahead.
Instead I'd like to see something unique to the Protoss.
Void Pylon (100 energy) - creates a static pylon with 100 shields at a location with 100 energy which allows the instant restoration of shields at a rate of 2 shields per 1 energy. Can autocast. Range 9.
I'd also like to see Phase Shield encase units with the same effect (100HP shield or so), rather than buildings and have a much smaller range - 1.5 or so and disable actions other than moving. That'd give it the same harassment ability without making micro suck against it like Fungal Win.
On October 06 2012 19:59 Salient wrote: What if the widow mine kept its new stats, but couldn't be loaded into a medivac?
Then people would question why mines can't be in a Medivac but a Thor can. I know I'm arguing against the mines a lot, but I actually don't care that much about them, I'm more pissed we lost Phase Shield.
On October 06 2012 19:40 SaintEaon wrote: Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.
Observers aren't killed easily if they stay out of range.
And you're right, Revelation is great against Widow mines. I'm fine with the new design.
Observers aren't easily killed vs like one mine. Vs like I don't know 10 suddenly it becomes a chore to clean widow mines up and if you're not paying attention they do kill Observers easily.
Observer: 40HP 20 Shields Sight: 11
Stalker: Range 6
Widow Mine: Payload Damage: 160, Splash 40
In short, it will cost me probably 1 unit at the very least to discover one of the mines, you can get mines faster. Mines that directly hit an Observer will kill it INSTANTLY, Observers hit with splash damage take 2 hits. In short Observers are very easily killed by one mine, but no one just builds one mine because that'd be a waste of resources, if you're going mines you'll probably have 5 plus, in which case I now have to watch my positioning while dealing with an easily acquired non-static defensive unit that detracts from my over all unit composition.
There is no cost effective way to deal with widow mines, other than maybe an Oracle, but after its nerf that's debatable too. In fact the only justification for going Oracles vs Terran now is you wanted to slow their mineral production down while you teched to a mothership to make Zeal Archon for an Archon toilet late game.
Good. That's the point of a mine. They aren't supposed to be cost efficient to deal with when properly positioned. That makes up for the fact that a widow mine does a grand total of 2 DPS per supply single target and 0.5 DPS per supply AoE. Why would we want to make it easy for you to clear minefields? They might vapourise an A move deathball in 3s, but that's your issue, not that of the mines.
Vs Widow Mine 9Pylon 15Gate 16 Gas/Pylon Cyber Core after Gate 20ish- Zealot Warp Gate/Stalker after Core
Expand after Stalker Add 2 gates Make another Stalker 2 Sentries and a Zealot after WP Start Robo.
Robo/Obs finishes before a 111 can hit at 7:30, also should give you ample time to stop Widow mines even if rushed as I'm pretty sure a Zealot and a Stalker can kill a widow mine, likewise I'm pretty sure Widow mines unlike Roaches can't move while burrowed....just saying worried Protoss brethern, just sayin'.
On October 06 2012 19:40 SaintEaon wrote: Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.
Observers aren't killed easily if they stay out of range.
And you're right, Revelation is great against Widow mines. I'm fine with the new design.
Observers aren't easily killed vs like one mine. Vs like I don't know 10 suddenly it becomes a chore to clean widow mines up and if you're not paying attention they do kill Observers easily.
Observer: 40HP 20 Shields Sight: 11
Stalker: Range 6
Widow Mine: Payload Damage: 160, Splash 40
In short, it will cost me probably 1 unit at the very least to discover one of the mines, you can get mines faster. Mines that directly hit an Observer will kill it INSTANTLY, Observers hit with splash damage take 2 hits. In short Observers are very easily killed by one mine, but no one just builds one mine because that'd be a waste of resources, if you're going mines you'll probably have 5 plus, in which case I now have to watch my positioning while dealing with an easily acquired non-static defensive unit that detracts from my over all unit composition.
There is no cost effective way to deal with widow mines, other than maybe an Oracle, but after its nerf that's debatable too. In fact the only justification for going Oracles vs Terran now is you wanted to slow their mineral production down while you teched to a mothership to make Zeal Archon for an Archon toilet late game.
then pay more attention? If HoTS makes it more mechanically difficult for players, then I'm for whatever it changes.
On October 06 2012 19:40 SaintEaon wrote: Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.
Observers aren't killed easily if they stay out of range.
And you're right, Revelation is great against Widow mines. I'm fine with the new design.
Observers aren't easily killed vs like one mine. Vs like I don't know 10 suddenly it becomes a chore to clean widow mines up and if you're not paying attention they do kill Observers easily.
Observer: 40HP 20 Shields Sight: 11
Stalker: Range 6
Widow Mine: Payload Damage: 160, Splash 40
In short, it will cost me probably 1 unit at the very least to discover one of the mines, you can get mines faster. Mines that directly hit an Observer will kill it INSTANTLY, Observers hit with splash damage take 2 hits. In short Observers are very easily killed by one mine, but no one just builds one mine because that'd be a waste of resources, if you're going mines you'll probably have 5 plus, in which case I now have to watch my positioning while dealing with an easily acquired non-static defensive unit that detracts from my over all unit composition.
There is no cost effective way to deal with widow mines, other than maybe an Oracle, but after its nerf that's debatable too. In fact the only justification for going Oracles vs Terran now is you wanted to slow their mineral production down while you teched to a mothership to make Zeal Archon for an Archon toilet late game.
then pay more attention? If HoTS makes it more mechanically difficult for players, then I'm for whatever it changes.
There's a difference between difficulty and tedious. Its not difficult for me to deal with Widow Mines, however it is Tedious. Its difficult to deal with Fungal Growth, Its difficult to split Marines vs Banelings, Its difficult to land perfect storms or feedback ghosts.
Its not difficult to rush a unit that every 40 seconds fires an attack that can auto detect, from a burrowed unit that you can make 2 at a time from a factory.
You're looking at it saying "It makes the game harder for whoever I'm playing." but it doesn't actually make the game harder for the person behind it. The biggest criticism against SC2 from its players are that it's too easy to a-move and win. This in its present form doesn't solve that problem at all. The mines were under powered before, however this isn't a solution because while it makes the job of the player dealing with mines tedious it doesn't make gameplay more difficult or diverse, just annoying. Likewise it didn't make anything harder for Terran either who usually flies their factories off anyway unless they're going mech, which is still rare.
I would suggest either adding in a new factory unit, or removing the widow mine and making it a spell cast by the Raven, make it cost 0 supply and have a disruption burst that works like EMP, it damages shields if an enemy is shielded, costs only energy, but also when it explodes it does enough damage to do health damage vs Protoss so its actually cost effective. Also make the disruption burst do some kind of damage to zerg maybe it burns or something. That way people can't just rush widow mine, it makes another unit more useful, and it keeps it in the game or gives Terran another unit that isn't extremely UP.
This current build for the widow mine is just bad.
Don't really care for the Widow Mine changes cause this means that that the ability and cost of the unit are a lot easier to nerf, and I just don't care for Blizzard being able to do that for the easy option now. Already nerfed Battle Hellions to hell and back; and now I'm seeing the same thing gonna happen again.
Void Syphon, just don't see the community really wanting a spell anything like that the Phase Shield spell had way more use than that.giving the Orcale the Cloaking Field spell was what made people want to use the unit, just give the Oracle something OP'ed like that and balance from there?
On October 06 2012 19:29 Evangelist wrote: Void Siphon is useless. There are no numbers that are going to make that ability worth using UNLESS it is the oracle's base attack and benefits from upgrades like a Raider from Warcraft 3 ie. it attacks at 5 damage with a 1s cooldown but drains 3 minerals per second when attacking buildings. Putting it on energy just makes you trade energy for minerals and Phase Shield is always going to come out ahead.
Instead I'd like to see something unique to the Protoss.
Void Pylon (100 energy) - creates a static pylon with 100 shields at a location with 100 energy which allows the instant restoration of shields at a rate of 2 shields per 1 energy. Can autocast. Range 9.
I'd also like to see Phase Shield encase units with the same effect (100HP shield or so), rather than buildings and have a much smaller range - 1.5 or so and disable actions other than moving. That'd give it the same harassment ability without making micro suck against it like Fungal Win.
Its mind blowing, why hasn't anybody thougt of that. Only thing I don't like is that it's called Void Pylon, why not call it like Void Battery or maybe something simpler, like Shield Battery
On October 06 2012 19:29 Evangelist wrote: Void Siphon is useless. There are no numbers that are going to make that ability worth using UNLESS it is the oracle's base attack and benefits from upgrades like a Raider from Warcraft 3 ie. it attacks at 5 damage with a 1s cooldown but drains 3 minerals per second when attacking buildings. Putting it on energy just makes you trade energy for minerals and Phase Shield is always going to come out ahead.
Instead I'd like to see something unique to the Protoss.
Void Pylon (100 energy) - creates a static pylon with 100 shields at a location with 100 energy which allows the instant restoration of shields at a rate of 2 shields per 1 energy. Can autocast. Range 9.
I'd also like to see Phase Shield encase units with the same effect (100HP shield or so), rather than buildings and have a much smaller range - 1.5 or so and disable actions other than moving. That'd give it the same harassment ability without making micro suck against it like Fungal Win.
Its mind blowing, why hasn't anybody thougt of that. Only thing I don't like is that it's called Void Pylon, why not call it like Void Battery or maybe something simpler, like Shield Battery
On October 06 2012 07:16 tianGO wrote: lol so now terran has a mech swarm host? Blizzard is runnign out of ideas.
LOL.. if someone try some new ideas , make many changes to beta , he runs out of ideas ? Your thinking way is strange.
It's not really a new idea or a new concept, it's the same units like the swarm host with the same purpose, only it can suicide
Yeah and the swarm host is a burrowed broodlord, the broodlord is a guardian with extra unit spawn, the guardian is a flying catapult, the catapult is a splash archer, which is nothing but a ranged grunt. At the end of the day, everything is just a grunt... lol
I think this change makes Widow mines decent at securing a part of the map on their own. It is in a way the thing a lot of people have been asking for IMO.
On October 06 2012 19:09 SaintEaon wrote: Widow Mines should be changed to
Requires Armory Has more energy than life
So at least vs Protoss or Terran we have time to build detection vs them that they don't kill and they can keep their auto-fire ability and our response would just be feedback or EMP that way we can still do builds, and Terrans can still use Widow Mines to control space (because then you'd have to dedicate resources to kill the mines specifically), however Widow Mine Rushes don't just win because they can kill observers and burrow in 2 seconds. There actually has to be some tact and planning that goes into using them.
I think that mines have less than 80hp, so storming is fine (they don't move, and storm has 5< range)
Yeah lets use my storms on the Mines so that way the MMM can just kill me. Love the way that sounds.
you can use observer and stalkers if you want...
On October 06 2012 19:14 Snowbear wrote:
On October 06 2012 19:05 DrGreen wrote:
I'm seriously worried about widow mine drops... sure they need 2 seconds to burrow, but compared to storm drops I think it's just as good or better.
Is there a problem with the possibility that they are just as good as ht drops?
Possibly, not necessarily. But now that I think about it, a cannon or two should deal with that no problem.
Uhm well you see, they can kill observers easily, and stalkers are still extremely bad vs Terran The most cost effective way to deal with these things unfortunately is to open stargate and use Oracles for that soft scan they have. That's probably what Bliz wants us to do with them, Phoenix to chase off the medivacs, Oracle to deal with mines, then both to take up supply vs Terran. Yeah logic.
??? Obs have 11 sight range, widow mine range is only 5. Obs/stalker still most cost effective way to deal with them because stalker is range 6
Void siphon doesn't even belong in the starcraft universe. Starcraft is supposed to be about conquering expansions. Meaning you'll have to fight for expansions with your opponent. Fight for the last mineral to eventually kill him. If void siphon ever gets usefull, (it won't) it takes away from this struggle for minerals which is what sc is all about.
Ugh, again with the useless "slowly steals minerals from building" thing. How many times have we seen this? It was terrible before, it's still terrible now. The oracle is, once again, total balls.
I really liked phase shield. I'm incredibly sad that they got rid of it so quickly.
On October 06 2012 21:45 Belisarius wrote: Ugh, again with the useless "slowly steals minerals from building" thing. How many times have we seen this? It was terrible before, it's still terrible now. The oracle is, once again, total balls.
I really liked phase shield. I'm incredibly sad that they got rid of it so quickly.
The problem with it is that, let's face it, it was more or less only useful against Fungal and maaybe Blinding Cloud (not that people build Vipers for anything but Abduct for some reason).
That said, it's better than Void Syphon. I just do not understand how they could think that's a good idea. In fact it might just top the Warhound in terms of stupidity.
I like the direction the mine is going in, but I think that they need to either make the splash damage kill marines or allow toggling of auto cast. In its current state - with the exception of air - it will kill 1 unit max and that unit will 90% of the time be a tier 1 unit.
On October 06 2012 21:45 Belisarius wrote: Ugh, again with the useless "slowly steals minerals from building" thing. How many times have we seen this? It was terrible before, it's still terrible now. The oracle is, once again, total balls.
I really liked phase shield. I'm incredibly sad that they got rid of it so quickly.
The problem with it is that, let's face it, it was more or less only useful against Fungal and maaybe Blinding Cloud (not that people build Vipers for anything but Abduct for some reason).
That said, it's better than Void Syphon. I just do not understand how they could think that's a good idea. In fact it might just top the Warhound in terms of stupidity.
It stopped abduct and EMP as well, didn't it? I would have happily PS'd colo and HTs, respectively.
I just feel like it was a really useful tool that maybe wasn't being pushed just yet. It was a response to things that otherwise had no response, which added a layer of interaction that wasn't there before. I'm sure it needed tweaking, but that's not enough to throw it out.
I'd accept its removal if they finally, finally did something about how stupid fungal is, since that's the worst of the "no response available" spells... but I'm not sure I see that coming.
On October 06 2012 21:52 DeCoup wrote: I like the direction the mine is going in, but I think that they need to either make the splash damage kill marines or allow toggling of auto cast. In its current state - with the exception of air - it will kill 1 unit max and that unit will 90% of the time be a tier 1 unit.
I'm not sure if that's a bad thing, though. It will always at least slow down your opponent, and if you are watching the mini map like you should, it will give you a heads up to their army movements. Units that can come out of a naked factory shouldn't really be one-shotting stuff past tier 1, anyway IMO
On October 06 2012 21:45 Belisarius wrote: Ugh, again with the useless "slowly steals minerals from building" thing. How many times have we seen this? It was terrible before, it's still terrible now. The oracle is, once again, total balls.
I really liked phase shield. I'm incredibly sad that they got rid of it so quickly.
The problem with it is that, let's face it, it was more or less only useful against Fungal and maaybe Blinding Cloud (not that people build Vipers for anything but Abduct for some reason).
That said, it's better than Void Syphon. I just do not understand how they could think that's a good idea. In fact it might just top the Warhound in terms of stupidity.
It stopped abduct and EMP as well, didn't it? I would have happily PS'd colo and HTs, respectively.
I just feel like it was a really useful tool that maybe wasn't being pushed just yet. It was a response to things that otherwise had no response, which added a layer of interaction that wasn't there before. I'm sure it needed tweaking, but that's not enough to throw it out.
I'd accept its removal if they finally, finally did something about how stupid fungal is, since that's the worst of the "no response available" spells... but I'm not sure I see that coming.
No it didn't stop EMP, it stopped revealing cloaked units hit by EMP. Shield/energy damage was still going through.
It'd be cool even if it was used just in PvZ lategame to have something that helps with infestors.
And i agree with your comment on fungal. Or specifically the interaction between fungal and bl's, as well as how ridicolously well Infestors scale well together in the lategame. Ghosts, Templar and Sentries all lose effectiveness past a certain count (and Ravens are underused/bad/impossible to transition into/whatever), with Infestors the more the merrier.
On October 06 2012 21:45 Belisarius wrote: Ugh, again with the useless "slowly steals minerals from building" thing. How many times have we seen this? It was terrible before, it's still terrible now. The oracle is, once again, total balls.
I really liked phase shield. I'm incredibly sad that they got rid of it so quickly.
The problem with it is that, let's face it, it was more or less only useful against Fungal and maaybe Blinding Cloud (not that people build Vipers for anything but Abduct for some reason).
That said, it's better than Void Syphon. I just do not understand how they could think that's a good idea. In fact it might just top the Warhound in terms of stupidity.
It stopped abduct and EMP as well, didn't it? I would have happily PS'd colo and HTs, respectively.
I just feel like it was a really useful tool that maybe wasn't being pushed just yet. It was a response to things that otherwise had no response, which added a layer of interaction that wasn't there before. I'm sure it needed tweaking, but that's not enough to throw it out.
I'd accept its removal if they finally, finally did something about how stupid fungal is, since that's the worst of the "no response available" spells... but I'm not sure I see that coming.
No it didn't stop EMP, it stopped revealing cloaked units hit by EMP. Shield/energy damage was still going through.
Didn't it? Oh, okay. Obviously it wouldn't regen shields/energy after the hit, but I thought it was possible to PS something beforehand to make it temporarily immune.
Honestly, I would have been happy to see it changed to protect more stuff but only protect, and not "heal"/de-debuff. That way you would have to pick the units you wanted to protect, but they could also buff the spell to make it more widely used.
On October 06 2012 21:57 Teoita wrote: It'd be cool even if it was used just in PvZ lategame to have something that helps with infestors.
And i agree with your comment on fungal. Or specifically the interaction between fungal and bl's, as well as how ridicolously well Infestors scale well together in the lategame. Ghosts, Templar and Sentries all lose effectiveness past a certain count (and Ravens are underused/bad/impossible to transition into/whatever), with Infestors the more the merrier.
woaaaaaa. Then you haven't seen Byun or DeMuslims lategame in TvP, if you think ghosts lose effectiveness past a certain count. Yeah, mass infestor is pretty, pretty good, but you know, that's what happens if you don't give a race a good, universal standard combat unit. The game is going to get balanced/evolved around the unit that fulfills that role best.
Maybe the removal of the phase shield points towards blizzard wanting to change the Infestor anyways in a few weeks. I'd hope so.
On October 06 2012 22:03 iHirO wrote: In the advent of a draw condition being reached (e.g. no mining), does using the Void Siphon ability cause the countdown timer to reset?
On October 06 2012 21:57 Teoita wrote: It'd be cool even if it was used just in PvZ lategame to have something that helps with infestors.
And i agree with your comment on fungal. Or specifically the interaction between fungal and bl's, as well as how ridicolously well Infestors scale well together in the lategame. Ghosts, Templar and Sentries all lose effectiveness past a certain count (and Ravens are underused/bad/impossible to transition into/whatever), with Infestors the more the merrier.
woaaaaaa. Then you haven't seen Byun or DeMuslims lategame in TvP, if you think ghosts lose effectiveness past a certain count. Yeah, mass infestor is pretty, pretty good, but you know, that's what happens if you don't give a race a good, universal standard combat unit. The game is going to get balanced/evolved around the unit that fulfills that role best.
Maybe the removal of the phase shield points towards blizzard wanting to change the Infestor anyways in a few weeks. I'd hope so.
Wasn't that before the nerf to snipe though?
Yeah high ghost counts are good, but it's not THE only way for Terran to win, like mass infestor is for Zerg (or close to that). I agree on the potential for an Infestor change though.
In general with the Swarm Host and Viper, i think Hive tech could be redesigned. Right now it's almost the only way for Z to win a game, by giving them more Lair tech options like they did i think there's the possibility of toning down Infestor/Broodlord and Hive tech in general a bit so it's not what Zerg rushes for to finish the game (outside of 2-3 base timings like 2-2muta ling in zvt or roach max in zvp), but rather something they can go into once they have an advantage from a Lair tech midgame and use that for the finishing blow. Hope that made sense.
40 seconds build time for the widow mine is way to long imo.
Attacking both air & cloaked units seems a bit strong too.
To people saying terran won't have to do anything to kill observators, the widow mine has a range of 5, so if protoss pays a bit of attention to his obs, he'll see the mine before it can shoot, so I don't think it'll be a big problem.
On October 06 2012 22:03 iHirO wrote: In the advent of a draw condition being reached (e.g. no mining), does using the Void Siphon ability cause the countdown timer to reset?
I don't like any of the changes to be honest. Particularly I dislike the siphon ability on the oracle: While it definately needed some additional way to harrass, the unit itself remains BORING. I'd love to see blizzard giving it an actually exciting ability to watch. An 10sec auto-cast attack projectile ability (that can be denied by attacking it, 10-20hp maybe?) to attack workers would be fun. Or a self-defensive ability like phase-shift that requires good timing/skill to use. Even if it's a copy of a another unit (resembling a seeker missile, or wc3 feary dragon)... ANYTHING is more exciting than watching a flying ball making its way towards a mineral line, casting entomb and then siphon an extractor!
On October 06 2012 22:03 iHirO wrote: In the advent of a draw condition being reached (e.g. no mining), does using the Void Siphon ability cause the countdown timer to reset?
I assume so, because damage is being done.
So basically in stalemate conditions its possible to farm infinite money versus protoss or zerg opponents if you have access to their buildings (due to health and shields regen).
Just an FYI for the thread, apparently 12,000 more invites went out too (I assume they just "add" it to your B.Net account and give you a notification email) the beta must be at least 30 -> 50,000 now - still no luck for me :/ ahh well.
On October 06 2012 22:03 iHirO wrote: In the advent of a draw condition being reached (e.g. no mining), does using the Void Siphon ability cause the countdown timer to reset?
I assume so, because damage is being done.
So basically in stalemate conditions its possible to farm infinite money versus protoss or zerg opponents if you have access to their buildings (due to health and shields regen).
On October 06 2012 22:03 iHirO wrote: In the advent of a draw condition being reached (e.g. no mining), does using the Void Siphon ability cause the countdown timer to reset?
I assume so, because damage is being done.
So basically in stalemate conditions its possible to farm infinite money versus protoss or zerg opponents if you have access to their buildings (due to health and shields regen).
Maybe, I guess?
I thought of this too. One aspect of the ability that might turn out to be interesting, being able to recover from a no workers, no money situation.
I like how every time I check up on this post, the OP is formatted a bit better each time. Made me chuckle a few times.
I hope they refine the Widow Mine so that it allows some form of micro from the Mine, kinda like stop Lurkers or burrowed Banelings. Right now, it doesn't really allow for any kind of stealthy ambush tactics since the ability is on a passive autocast. But considering that this change was conjured up in the span of a single week, I wouldn't be surprised if this was just the result of hasty programming/design for quick experimentation rather than be representative of the final product, so I'm expecting more changes down the line.
I like the concept of this new Mine. A bit more refinement and balance tweaks would make it even better.
On October 06 2012 21:57 Teoita wrote: It'd be cool even if it was used just in PvZ lategame to have something that helps with infestors.
And i agree with your comment on fungal. Or specifically the interaction between fungal and bl's, as well as how ridicolously well Infestors scale well together in the lategame. Ghosts, Templar and Sentries all lose effectiveness past a certain count (and Ravens are underused/bad/impossible to transition into/whatever), with Infestors the more the merrier.
woaaaaaa. Then you haven't seen Byun or DeMuslims lategame in TvP, if you think ghosts lose effectiveness past a certain count. Yeah, mass infestor is pretty, pretty good, but you know, that's what happens if you don't give a race a good, universal standard combat unit. The game is going to get balanced/evolved around the unit that fulfills that role best.
Maybe the removal of the phase shield points towards blizzard wanting to change the Infestor anyways in a few weeks. I'd hope so.
Wasn't that before the nerf to snipe though?
Yeah high ghost counts are good, but it's not THE only way for Terran to win, like mass infestor is for Zerg (or close to that). I agree on the potential for an Infestor change though.
In general with the Swarm Host and Viper, i think Hive tech could be redesigned. Right now it's almost the only way for Z to win a game, by giving them more Lair tech options like they did i think there's the possibility of toning down Infestor/Broodlord and Hive tech in general a bit so it's not what Zerg rushes for to finish the game (outside of 2-3 base timings like 2-2muta ling in zvt or roach max in zvp), but rather something they can go into once they have an advantage from a Lair tech midgame and use that for the finishing blow. Hope that made sense.
It's after the nerf. TO be honest, I only saw Demuslim do it once or twice (yet I hardly watch a lot of demuslim to begin with), but there was a GSL series with Byun, where he basically went ghost only (as ground units) multiple times in TvP lategame.
I agree with Hive redesign. Hive should be the thing you get to get the 3-3(-3), the adrenalin glands, the support caster etc etc, and if you were forced into corruptors or if the opponent turtles really hard, you should be allowed to go broods as a siege weapon. It absolutly shouldn't be the "can't play macro without Hive army"-thing it is right now. The basic problem simply is, that zerg is lacking the real T2 ranged damage, that allows you to attack an opponent even (or especially) if he minimizes surface area. Well, zerg has it, it's the infestor. It's just not really possible to have continous swarm dynamics with an energy based unit, so it's deahball vs deathball...
On October 06 2012 21:57 Teoita wrote: It'd be cool even if it was used just in PvZ lategame to have something that helps with infestors.
And i agree with your comment on fungal. Or specifically the interaction between fungal and bl's, as well as how ridicolously well Infestors scale well together in the lategame. Ghosts, Templar and Sentries all lose effectiveness past a certain count (and Ravens are underused/bad/impossible to transition into/whatever), with Infestors the more the merrier.
woaaaaaa. Then you haven't seen Byun or DeMuslims lategame in TvP, if you think ghosts lose effectiveness past a certain count. Yeah, mass infestor is pretty, pretty good, but you know, that's what happens if you don't give a race a good, universal standard combat unit. The game is going to get balanced/evolved around the unit that fulfills that role best.
Maybe the removal of the phase shield points towards blizzard wanting to change the Infestor anyways in a few weeks. I'd hope so.
Wasn't that before the nerf to snipe though?
Yeah high ghost counts are good, but it's not THE only way for Terran to win, like mass infestor is for Zerg (or close to that). I agree on the potential for an Infestor change though.
In general with the Swarm Host and Viper, i think Hive tech could be redesigned. Right now it's almost the only way for Z to win a game, by giving them more Lair tech options like they did i think there's the possibility of toning down Infestor/Broodlord and Hive tech in general a bit so it's not what Zerg rushes for to finish the game (outside of 2-3 base timings like 2-2muta ling in zvt or roach max in zvp), but rather something they can go into once they have an advantage from a Lair tech midgame and use that for the finishing blow. Hope that made sense.
It's after the nerf. TO be honest, I only saw Demuslim do it once or twice (yet I hardly watch a lot of demuslim to begin with), but there was a GSL series with Byun, where he basically went ghost only (as ground units) multiple times in TvP lategame.
I agree with Hive redesign. Hive should be the thing you get to get the 3-3(-3), the adrenalin glands, the support caster etc etc, and if you were forced into corruptors or if the opponent turtles really hard, you should be allowed to go broods as a siege weapon. It absolutly shouldn't be the "can't play macro without Hive army"-thing it is right now. The basic problem simply is, that zerg is lacking the real T2 ranged damage, that allows you to attack an opponent even (or especially) if he minimizes surface area. Well, zerg has it, it's the infestor. It's just not really possible to have continous swarm dynamics with an energy based unit, so it's deahball vs deathball...
With that logic, the Swarm Host opens up a lot of stuff, which is great. I'm concerned if you combine that with current infestor/broodlord though, you don't want to make one push deathballs even stronger than they currently are.
@fragile: there is. As i said, right now it's either hive tech or lair allins/timings. There should be an option to go Hive to finish of a game as a final push, but the race should be designed around a swarm of Lair tech units, not one final infestor/broodlord deathpush.
I'm playing HOTS almost since the beginning and I was pretty optimistic about first changes (mothership core being defensive so protoss can go more into late game, zerg changes so it could easier break siege lines late game and force a game without broodlords, warhound which made TvT awesome and finally not a 50 minute stale-mates with 20 tanks and vikings), but now I'm really looking at the changes and thinking: is this really what we want?
Every race got a siege + siegebreaker unit.
Terran: widow mine(siege) + warhound (now removed, supposed to be siegebreaker for TvT) Zerg: swarm host(siege) + viper (siege breaker) Protoss: Tempest, serves both of those roles.
There are two things I don't (personally) like about what's being changed from WOL to HOTS: 1) the games are becoming a siege / simcity stalemates that last 30+ minute each. 2) Blizzard is forcing certain builds/build orders, which limits creativity and promotes just practising over and over one build.
I seriously dont like where this is going. MSC +2 zaelot or 1 zaelot stalker rush forces zerg to build additional queen at the expansion (since its unscoutable) and forces terran to build 1-2 bunkers, almost removing the option to go 1 rax fast expand. Widow mines are forcing both zerg and toss to get detection and long range units to counter them.
With each patch HOTS is going backwards imo. I liked it most at the beginning.
On October 06 2012 23:31 Defrag wrote: I'm playing HOTS almost since the beginning and I was pretty optimistic about first changes (mothership core being defensive so protoss can go more into late game, zerg changes so it could easier break siege lines late game and force a game without broodlords, warhound which made TvT awesome and finally not a 50 minute stale-mates with 20 tanks and vikings), but now I'm really looking at the changes and thinking: is this really what we want?
Every race got a siege + siegebreaker unit.
Terran: widow mine(siege) + warhound (now removed, supposed to be siegebreaker for TvT) Zerg: swarm host(siege) + viper (siege breaker) Protoss: Tempest, serves both of those roles.
There are two things I don't (personally) like about what's being changed from WOL to HOTS: 1) the games are becoming a siege / simcity stalemates that last 30+ minute each. 2) Blizzard is forcing certain builds/build orders, which limits creativity and promotes just practising over and over one build.
I seriously dont like where this is going. MSC +2 zaelot or 1 zaelot stalker rush forces zerg to build additional queen at the expansion (since its unscoutable) and forces terran to build 1-2 bunkers, almost removing the option to go 1 rax fast expand. Widow mines are forcing both zerg and toss to get detection and long range units to counter them.
With each patch HOTS is going backwards imo. I liked it most at the beginning.
All of these siege units, I suppose, are used to break up the deathball syndrome, which is what almost everybody has poor feelings about. People said they wanted more strategy and less deathball and I propose this is what they are leaning toward.
to be honest, i intended to pick up SC2 again in my semester vacations and play a lot. But since the beta came out, i do not forsee an enjoyable future of playing, thus play hardly at all. In other words - current plans for HotS really suck, especially the widow mine. No idea how this should fix mech, when it just makes bio play much stronger (and screws my beloved Mutalisks).
On October 06 2012 23:29 CYFAWS wrote: COME ON you can't fire a missile from underground. Make the widow into some kind of pod that builds a widow mine, that launches.
That is, it works exactly as outlined above, but it fires a mine and not a missile.
What? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of missiles that fire from underground IRL
Widow Mines are still not cost effective enough/still bad. In Broodwar, they cost 75 minerals per vulture and 100 minerals and gas for the spider mine upgrade. It gave you 3 spider mines per vulture, and vultures were the fastest unit in BW with the Ion upgrade. 2 supply for the fastest unit in the game plus 3 spider mines. That's what I consider cost effective.
Widow mines are completely waste of space in your army.
Zerg is perfect, fuck you all! On a serious note, the new widow mine idea is cool as a concept but needs refinement. Not sure how to go about that but a few minor tweaks would be good.
On October 06 2012 19:29 Evangelist wrote: Void Siphon is useless. There are no numbers that are going to make that ability worth using UNLESS it is the oracle's base attack and benefits from upgrades like a Raider from Warcraft 3 ie. it attacks at 5 damage with a 1s cooldown but drains 3 minerals per second when attacking buildings. Putting it on energy just makes you trade energy for minerals and Phase Shield is always going to come out ahead.
Instead I'd like to see something unique to the Protoss.
Void Pylon (100 energy) - creates a static pylon with 100 shields at a location with 100 energy which allows the instant restoration of shields at a rate of 2 shields per 1 energy. Can autocast. Range 9.
I'd also like to see Phase Shield encase units with the same effect (100HP shield or so), rather than buildings and have a much smaller range - 1.5 or so and disable actions other than moving. That'd give it the same harassment ability without making micro suck against it like Fungal Win.
Its mind blowing, why hasn't anybody thougt of that. Only thing I don't like is that it's called Void Pylon, why not call it like Void Battery or maybe something simpler, like Shield Battery
On October 06 2012 20:35 pallad wrote:
On October 06 2012 07:16 tianGO wrote: lol so now terran has a mech swarm host? Blizzard is runnign out of ideas.
LOL.. if someone try some new ideas , make many changes to beta , he runs out of ideas ? Your thinking way is strange.
It's not really a new idea or a new concept, it's the same units like the swarm host with the same purpose, only it can suicide
Yeah and the swarm host is a burrowed broodlord, the broodlord is a guardian with extra unit spawn, the guardian is a flying catapult, the catapult is a splash archer, which is nothing but a ranged grunt. At the end of the day, everything is just a grunt... lol
haha - well played there.
On topic :
I like a lot the widow mine change. It's what the units needs, 'nuff said. Blizzard's on point there.
The oracle change almost saddens me too :the unit was awfully boring to watch for the spectator, too easy for the player and just annoying for the opponent - there's no skill in shift clicking around a 4.25 speed flyer that will just never die whatever you do, and this ability isn't going to change much. I find it comical that such an awful ability would go from an awful unit (corruptor) to an even more awful one (oracle).
For the mothership core.... Why no just go back to the alpha M core attached to the nexus ? It would siolve every problem with the unit.
Widow mines are completely waste of space in your army.
Rofl? They counter now Swarm Hosts. Because:
- they're reacting to time-based free units - they still have splash - 2 widow mines can clear half of locusts or maybe all
And how many mines am i supposed to build with a 40 seconds cooldown ? They aren't that good right now yeah the damage is nice but 40 seconds is way too much . Lower damage but Lower supply and lower rebuild would make the unit actually really good.
I feel like this incarnation of the widow mine should cost gas.
Void siphon is hilarious. Bad, but hilarious. It would make more sense if it cost itself energy over time rather than a bunch of energy at start then free indefinitely, though.
On October 07 2012 00:53 Crow! wrote: I feel like this incarnation of the widow mine should cost gas.
Void siphon is hilarious. Bad, but hilarious. It would make more sense if it cost itself energy over time rather than a bunch of energy at start then free indefinitely, though.
If void siphon does not drain minerals from the terran bank to the protoss player..
Did nobody consider that it costs a terran 25 minerals to repair 1000hp on a barracks? If the Oracle is generating 3 minerals for every 3 points of damage it does, there is the potential for many many thousands of minerals to be generated out of nowhere.
A barracks costs 150 minerals for 1500hp, and it costs a quarter of that cost to repair it from 0 to full, so what costs the terran 37.5 minerals will give the protoss 1500. You can literally pull tens of thousands of minerals out of nowhere if the terran does not stop you, that has so many balance implications
On October 07 2012 00:53 Crow! wrote: I feel like this incarnation of the widow mine should cost gas.
Void siphon is hilarious. Bad, but hilarious. It would make more sense if it cost itself energy over time rather than a bunch of energy at start then free indefinitely, though.
They cost gas , allways did ...
Huh, so they do. For some reason I thought the mines cost 75 minerals and that was it. (Previous incarnations probably could have cost that little).
On October 07 2012 00:58 Cyro wrote: If void siphon does not drain minerals from the terran bank to the protoss player..
Did nobody consider that it costs a terran 25 minerals to repair 1000hp on a barracks? If the Oracle is generating 3 minerals for every 3 points of damage it does, there is the potential for many many thousands of minerals to be generated out of nowhere.
A barracks costs 150 minerals for 1500hp, and it costs a quarter of that cost to repair it from 0 to full, so what costs the terran 37.5 minerals will give the protoss 1500. You can literally pull tens of thousands of minerals out of nowhere if the terran does not stop you, that has so many balance implications
Which will take...500 seconds...The only situation this is relevant in is super late game when all the resources have been mined out.
On October 07 2012 00:58 Cyro wrote: If void siphon does not drain minerals from the terran bank to the protoss player..
Did nobody consider that it costs a terran 25 minerals to repair 1000hp on a barracks? If the Oracle is generating 3 minerals for every 3 points of damage it does, there is the potential for many many thousands of minerals to be generated out of nowhere.
A barracks costs 150 minerals for 1500hp, and it costs a quarter of that cost to repair it from 0 to full, so what costs the terran 37.5 minerals will give the protoss 1500. You can literally pull tens of thousands of minerals out of nowhere if the terran does not stop you, that has so many balance implications
Or terran could, you know, make ONE viking. Or have marines close to his rax that works too.
On October 07 2012 01:16 baba1 wrote: Rocket launching mines = not mines but rocket launcher. I think it's a very dumb idea.
Void siphon just seems like they are out of ideas plain and simple.
Oh well..
Not entirely true. Anti Personel mines for example in real life jump up before they explode (some of them). It's still a mine, it just now has more than one use, which for 2 supply is more than fair. People need to give it a chance and stop qqing so much about every little change. It's getting really tiresome.
Opponents' structures should never be harvested by void syphon for more than a few seconds if the defender is paying the slightest bit of attention.
A bigger concern to me is those dumb neutral supply depots that so many tournaments use as a pacifier for Zerg players. Unless the ability explicitly forbids targeting neutral structures, those things are now worth a little under 400 minerals to harvest.
(Also, the rate of minerals spent to make a structure to minerals gained by harvesting doesn't really make sense).
Void Syphon sounds awful, I'd rather have a "not too popular" but useful spell of the likes of the Phase Shield. It was way more interesting in micro battles. I don't know what to think about the new Mine, seems a bit too much with cloak detection and rearm, specially against any kind of drop play (And obviously strong against DT/Banshee play).-
Guys I'm going on record right now and saying that I love the new widow mine after watching some games.
It has space control, rewards good positioning, and makes mech much much more viable while addressing air issues to a tolerable extent(should not be addressed completely)
I am completely in support of Terran and Zerg in current game state. I think toss is the only one missing something, but I don't know yet
On October 07 2012 01:47 Bippzy wrote: Guys I'm going on record right now and saying that I love the new widow mine after watching some games.
It has space control, rewards good positioning, and makes mech much much more viable while addressing air issues to a tolerable extent(should not be addressed completely)
I am completely in support of Terran and Zerg in current game state. I think toss is the only one missing something, but I don't know yet
Really? Please post video or explain how does "siegemines" or "widowtanks" help T mech to break siege lines of Tank+marine or in TvP.Collossi +obs just kill them before even see any enemy...
On October 07 2012 01:47 Bippzy wrote: Guys I'm going on record right now and saying that I love the new widow mine after watching some games.
It has space control, rewards good positioning, and makes mech much much more viable while addressing air issues to a tolerable extent(should not be addressed completely)
I am completely in support of Terran and Zerg in current game state. I think toss is the only one missing something, but I don't know yet
I support you. The Terran finally got a decent partner in leapfrogging and SURPISE SIEGES TANKS that is pure mech/position based play.
Moving out of your base vs T in HOTS will never be the same again. Definitely a different game from WoL. Worth buying for me. :D
Zerg: Most complete atm in terms of new units abilities/balances. Its now at a point where they can start to re-visit the WoL units and change numbers/etc. Which is good, the faster they are done with the new stuff, the quicker they can be on just tweaking numbers to make it all balanced.
Terran: Seems to be good now. The only new unit needing to be balanced is the warhound. Im hopeful when its re-added it will be everything it was originally supposed to be. After they get the warhound in a place similar to what they want, they can then start visiting the numbers and tweaking it. After that, they can start on the WoL units. A bit behind zerg, but defintely getting farther along.
Protoss: This is the only race that I think still needs quite a bit of work. They still have no idea what to do with mothership core and oracle, and their finalized tempest is just shit. I hope that they are doing their testing in waves, and that once terran's a bit far along they can start re-hauling Protoss completely, cause it needs it.
All in all i think Blizzard is doing a fantastic job, with the exception of Protoss. I hope that Zerg/Terran get finished so they can focus all resources on Protoss.
Also plz invite for Beta. Im nearing 15K+ 1v1 ladder games, with a low masters mmr. Ill test the shit out of this for you bliz!
On October 07 2012 01:47 Bippzy wrote: Guys I'm going on record right now and saying that I love the new widow mine after watching some games.
It has space control, rewards good positioning, and makes mech much much more viable while addressing air issues to a tolerable extent(should not be addressed completely)
I am completely in support of Terran and Zerg in current game state. I think toss is the only one missing something, but I don't know yet
Really? Please post video or explain how does "siegemines" or "widowtanks" help T mech to break siege lines of Tank+marine or in TvP.Collossi +obs just kill them before even see any enemy...
God forbid detection + T3 unit can deal with a unit that comes out of a naked/reactored factory...
I think a side effect of the new Widow Mine style is that you can unsiege and retreat a bit safer, now. Maybe even set traps that way or something.
On October 07 2012 01:55 ohampatu wrote:
Terran: Seems to be good now. The only new unit needing to be balanced is the warhound. Im hopeful when its re-added it will be everything it was originally supposed to be. After they get the warhound in a place similar to what they want, they can then start visiting the numbers and tweaking it. After that, they can start on the WoL units. A bit behind zerg, but defintely getting farther along.
Unless something drastic changes, the warhound isn't coming back. Blizzard has said as much themselves.
Widow mines are completely waste of space in your army.
Rofl? They counter now Swarm Hosts. Because:
- they're reacting to time-based free units - they still have splash - 2 widow mines can clear half of locusts or maybe all
It's the other way around. The mines blow the first locusts and the next wave go on and do their thing.
No "disable auto cast" is very bad. Good players should be allowed to show skill.
Not true. Just try it out, or watch people playing. It was made this way for a reason. Think about spider mines, they couldn't be controlled either, and those are what everyone seems to want. They were interesting because it was a huge amount of damage for a low cost, but spider mines also gave the opponent a chance to micro in order to mitigate damage.
The reason why Blizzard is able to make these mines so powerful, is because they made it so you can't just target a player's best units. You know your mine is going to do a ton of damage and splash, so you need to put them in areas where you expect their army will be balled up and not expecting to be hit.
And you can even scout ahead to see if they will be using single units to sweep for them or whatnot. That way you can set up siege tanks or something to pair with them. The tanks can take out single units from a distance, and if they opponent wants to actually get through, they have to use groups of units, which can be stopped with widow mines. It protects tanks very well from flanks by small groups.
And if you are really good, you can just unburrow them if you see single units coming, in order to not waste the cooldown. It's a unit that adds a lot to terran, and will allow them to employ a lot more strategy and planning into their already micro-intensive builds.
On October 07 2012 01:58 Leviance wrote: MorroW vs Dragon is showing how fun the new Widow mine is right now
The Mine is maybe "fun to watch" but did not solve the main T issues: Late TvP and the TvT. How can mech with tanks stop the P Deathball? 5 Range mines cant do nothing vs Collosi+obs,and this allows Zealots to charge vs Tanks and once again let T die...
TvT. Imagne you with your 10 mines,13 tanks and 20 hellions.The Enemy got 70 Marines+14 Tanks.He just scan,tanks kill Mines and marines go+stim and kill you.We still need TvT to allow mech be viable and BIO without tanks.Maybe if the Warhound come back then Pure Mech>Marine+Tank>Pure BIO>Pure Mech???
On October 07 2012 01:58 Leviance wrote: MorroW vs Dragon is showing how fun the new Widow mine is right now
The Mine is maybe "fun to watch" but did not solve the main T issues: Late TvP and the TvT. How can mech with tanks stop the P Deathball? 5 Range mines cant do nothing vs Collosi+obs,and this allows Zealots to charge vs Tanks and once again let T die...
TvT. Imagne you with your 10 mines,13 tanks and 20 hellions.The Enemy got 70 Marines+14 Tanks.He just scan,tanks kill Mines and marines go+stim and kill you.We still need TvT to allow mech be viable and BIO without tanks.Maybe if the Warhound come back then Pure Mech>Marine+Tank>Pure BIO>Pure Mech???
In PvT you should have Vikings, so scan beforehand and kill all Observers. P has to retreat or take dmg of all the remaining mines.
On October 07 2012 01:47 Bippzy wrote: Guys I'm going on record right now and saying that I love the new widow mine after watching some games.
It has space control, rewards good positioning, and makes mech much much more viable while addressing air issues to a tolerable extent(should not be addressed completely)
I am completely in support of Terran and Zerg in current game state. I think toss is the only one missing something, but I don't know yet
Really? Please post video or explain how does "siegemines" or "widowtanks" help T mech to break siege lines of Tank+marine or in TvP.Collossi +obs just kill them before even see any enemy...
I think you're strawmanning me, i.e. arguing against a different point them I'm trying to make. obviously colo plus observers should take out widow mines= put them in places where you'll be harassed. Besides, mech already works against tank and marine, and with the widow mines range and the battle hellions increased health mech has more of a buffer than ever.
Also, calling them weird names to make them seem stupid is stupid. I'm generalizing, and so are you. But I truly believe that ZvT is gonna still be super epic and TvT and I daresay PvT
On October 07 2012 01:58 Leviance wrote: MorroW vs Dragon is showing how fun the new Widow mine is right now
The Mine is maybe "fun to watch" but did not solve the main T issues: Late TvP and the TvT. How can mech with tanks stop the P Deathball? 5 Range mines cant do nothing vs Collosi+obs,and this allows Zealots to charge vs Tanks and once again let T die...
TvT. Imagne you with your 10 mines,13 tanks and 20 hellions.The Enemy got 70 Marines+14 Tanks.He just scan,tanks kill Mines and marines go+stim and kill you.We still need TvT to allow mech be viable and BIO without tanks.Maybe if the Warhound come back then Pure Mech>Marine+Tank>Pure BIO>Pure Mech???
It makes me laugh that people still keep saying this. TvT is a very diverse MU, and is perfectly fine as is. Bio is a legit playstyle. Biomech is a legit playstyle. Mech is a legit playstyle.
What more do you want. You can't really say they aren't legit playstyles, because MVP/Polt/MKP/Alive have shown that each style can excel vs either of the others.
On October 07 2012 01:58 Leviance wrote: MorroW vs Dragon is showing how fun the new Widow mine is right now
The Mine is maybe "fun to watch" but did not solve the main T issues: Late TvP and the TvT. How can mech with tanks stop the P Deathball? 5 Range mines cant do nothing vs Collosi+obs,and this allows Zealots to charge vs Tanks and once again let T die...
TvT. Imagne you with your 10 mines,13 tanks and 20 hellions.The Enemy got 70 Marines+14 Tanks.He just scan,tanks kill Mines and marines go+stim and kill you.We still need TvT to allow mech be viable and BIO without tanks.Maybe if the Warhound come back then Pure Mech>Marine+Tank>Pure BIO>Pure Mech???
It makes me laugh that people still keep saying this. TvT is a very diverse MU, and is perfectly fine as is. Bio is a legit playstyle. Biomech is a legit playstyle. Mech is a legit playstyle.
What more do you want. You can't really say they aren't legit playstyles, because MVP/Polt/MKP/Alive have shown that each style can excel vs either of the others.
Sure.When was the last time MKP won a TvT without tanks?If there is any VOD or Replay,please show it.TvT is DIVERSE?All playstyle are legit,but not really strong and winning styles.The best is Marine+Tank.They may open pretty diverse but everything ends in Marine+Tank.Pure Bio cant beat marine+tank.You need tanks to defend or attack,because marines can prevent pretty well drops and got higher DPS than MArauders
On October 07 2012 01:58 Leviance wrote: MorroW vs Dragon is showing how fun the new Widow mine is right now
The Mine is maybe "fun to watch" but did not solve the main T issues: Late TvP and the TvT. How can mech with tanks stop the P Deathball? 5 Range mines cant do nothing vs Collosi+obs,and this allows Zealots to charge vs Tanks and once again let T die...
TvT. Imagne you with your 10 mines,13 tanks and 20 hellions.The Enemy got 70 Marines+14 Tanks.He just scan,tanks kill Mines and marines go+stim and kill you.We still need TvT to allow mech be viable and BIO without tanks.Maybe if the Warhound come back then Pure Mech>Marine+Tank>Pure BIO>Pure Mech???
It makes me laugh that people still keep saying this. TvT is a very diverse MU, and is perfectly fine as is. Bio is a legit playstyle. Biomech is a legit playstyle. Mech is a legit playstyle.
What more do you want. You can't really say they aren't legit playstyles, because MVP/Polt/MKP/Alive have shown that each style can excel vs either of the others.
Sure.When was the last time MKP won a TvT without tanks?If there is any VOD or Replay,please show it.TvT is DIVERSE?All playstyle are legit,but not really strong and winning styles.The best is Marine+Tank.They may open pretty diverse but everything ends in Marine+Tank.Pure Bio cant beat marine+tank.You need tanks to defend or attack,because marines can prevent pretty well drops and got higher DPS than MArauders
What are you asking for? It seems like you want TvT to be rock/paper/scissors. I'll tell you, that's what PvP has been for the whole history of SC2. And it's not fun. Be happy that you can play various styles and win with them. Don't ask for only barracks units (cheap and efficient) to be able to go toe to toe with stronger things (expensive and effective) all game long in huge engagements. Certain units are better at certain things, that's why they exist. Barracks units can't be good at everything or no one would make anything else.
On October 07 2012 01:58 Leviance wrote: MorroW vs Dragon is showing how fun the new Widow mine is right now
The Mine is maybe "fun to watch" but did not solve the main T issues: Late TvP and the TvT. How can mech with tanks stop the P Deathball? 5 Range mines cant do nothing vs Collosi+obs,and this allows Zealots to charge vs Tanks and once again let T die...
TvT. Imagne you with your 10 mines,13 tanks and 20 hellions.The Enemy got 70 Marines+14 Tanks.He just scan,tanks kill Mines and marines go+stim and kill you.We still need TvT to allow mech be viable and BIO without tanks.Maybe if the Warhound come back then Pure Mech>Marine+Tank>Pure BIO>Pure Mech???
It makes me laugh that people still keep saying this. TvT is a very diverse MU, and is perfectly fine as is. Bio is a legit playstyle. Biomech is a legit playstyle. Mech is a legit playstyle.
What more do you want. You can't really say they aren't legit playstyles, because MVP/Polt/MKP/Alive have shown that each style can excel vs either of the others.
Sure.When was the last time MKP won a TvT without tanks?If there is any VOD or Replay,please show it.TvT is DIVERSE?All playstyle are legit,but not really strong and winning styles.The best is Marine+Tank.They may open pretty diverse but everything ends in Marine+Tank.Pure Bio cant beat marine+tank.You need tanks to defend or attack,because marines can prevent pretty well drops and got higher DPS than MArauders
What are you asking for? It seems like you want TvT to be rock/paper/scissors. I'll tell you, that's what PvP has been for the whole history of SC2. And it's not fun. Be happy that you can play various styles and win with them. Don't ask for only barracks units (cheap and efficient) to be able to go toe to toe with stronger things (expensive and effective) all game long in huge engagements. Certain units are better at certain things, that's why they exist. Barracks units can't be good at everything or no one would make anything else.
I am not looking fot Rock/paper/scissors.Just want to be able to play TvT without tanks.Is it so bad?There arent various styles in TvT.There is only Marine+Tank+Viking/Medivac. And if you dont remember,Barracks Units is the only thing we got in TvP...
stop with those retarded spell blizzard(like the one of the oracle) Starcraft should be a game about powerful spell that make aoe damage(like plague, irradiate, stasis ecc...), not pussy spell...
On October 07 2012 01:58 Leviance wrote: MorroW vs Dragon is showing how fun the new Widow mine is right now
The Mine is maybe "fun to watch" but did not solve the main T issues: Late TvP and the TvT. How can mech with tanks stop the P Deathball? 5 Range mines cant do nothing vs Collosi+obs,and this allows Zealots to charge vs Tanks and once again let T die...
TvT. Imagne you with your 10 mines,13 tanks and 20 hellions.The Enemy got 70 Marines+14 Tanks.He just scan,tanks kill Mines and marines go+stim and kill you.We still need TvT to allow mech be viable and BIO without tanks.Maybe if the Warhound come back then Pure Mech>Marine+Tank>Pure BIO>Pure Mech???
It makes me laugh that people still keep saying this. TvT is a very diverse MU, and is perfectly fine as is. Bio is a legit playstyle. Biomech is a legit playstyle. Mech is a legit playstyle.
What more do you want. You can't really say they aren't legit playstyles, because MVP/Polt/MKP/Alive have shown that each style can excel vs either of the others.
Sure.When was the last time MKP won a TvT without tanks?If there is any VOD or Replay,please show it.TvT is DIVERSE?All playstyle are legit,but not really strong and winning styles.The best is Marine+Tank.They may open pretty diverse but everything ends in Marine+Tank.Pure Bio cant beat marine+tank.You need tanks to defend or attack,because marines can prevent pretty well drops and got higher DPS than MArauders
What are you asking for? It seems like you want TvT to be rock/paper/scissors. I'll tell you, that's what PvP has been for the whole history of SC2. And it's not fun. Be happy that you can play various styles and win with them. Don't ask for only barracks units (cheap and efficient) to be able to go toe to toe with stronger things (expensive and effective) all game long in huge engagements. Certain units are better at certain things, that's why they exist. Barracks units can't be good at everything or no one would make anything else.
I am not looking fot Rock/paper/scissors.Just want to be able to play TvT without tanks.Is it so bad?There arent various styles in TvT.There is only Marine+Tank+Viking/Medivac. And if you dont remember,Barracks Units is the only thing we got in TvP...
Polt doesn't use tanks.... do what he does and go marine marauder.
On October 07 2012 01:58 Leviance wrote: MorroW vs Dragon is showing how fun the new Widow mine is right now
The Mine is maybe "fun to watch" but did not solve the main T issues: Late TvP and the TvT. How can mech with tanks stop the P Deathball? 5 Range mines cant do nothing vs Collosi+obs,and this allows Zealots to charge vs Tanks and once again let T die...
TvT. Imagne you with your 10 mines,13 tanks and 20 hellions.The Enemy got 70 Marines+14 Tanks.He just scan,tanks kill Mines and marines go+stim and kill you.We still need TvT to allow mech be viable and BIO without tanks.Maybe if the Warhound come back then Pure Mech>Marine+Tank>Pure BIO>Pure Mech???
It makes me laugh that people still keep saying this. TvT is a very diverse MU, and is perfectly fine as is. Bio is a legit playstyle. Biomech is a legit playstyle. Mech is a legit playstyle.
What more do you want. You can't really say they aren't legit playstyles, because MVP/Polt/MKP/Alive have shown that each style can excel vs either of the others.
Sure.When was the last time MKP won a TvT without tanks?If there is any VOD or Replay,please show it.TvT is DIVERSE?All playstyle are legit,but not really strong and winning styles.The best is Marine+Tank.They may open pretty diverse but everything ends in Marine+Tank.Pure Bio cant beat marine+tank.You need tanks to defend or attack,because marines can prevent pretty well drops and got higher DPS than MArauders
What are you asking for? It seems like you want TvT to be rock/paper/scissors. I'll tell you, that's what PvP has been for the whole history of SC2. And it's not fun. Be happy that you can play various styles and win with them. Don't ask for only barracks units (cheap and efficient) to be able to go toe to toe with stronger things (expensive and effective) all game long in huge engagements. Certain units are better at certain things, that's why they exist. Barracks units can't be good at everything or no one would make anything else.
I am not looking fot Rock/paper/scissors.Just want to be able to play TvT without tanks.Is it so bad?There arent various styles in TvT.There is only Marine+Tank+Viking/Medivac. And if you dont remember,Barracks Units is the only thing we got in TvP...
Just watch any game by Polt. And I daresay he's pretty successful with Bio.
On October 07 2012 01:58 Leviance wrote: MorroW vs Dragon is showing how fun the new Widow mine is right now
The Mine is maybe "fun to watch" but did not solve the main T issues: Late TvP and the TvT. How can mech with tanks stop the P Deathball? 5 Range mines cant do nothing vs Collosi+obs,and this allows Zealots to charge vs Tanks and once again let T die...
TvT. Imagne you with your 10 mines,13 tanks and 20 hellions.The Enemy got 70 Marines+14 Tanks.He just scan,tanks kill Mines and marines go+stim and kill you.We still need TvT to allow mech be viable and BIO without tanks.Maybe if the Warhound come back then Pure Mech>Marine+Tank>Pure BIO>Pure Mech???
It makes me laugh that people still keep saying this. TvT is a very diverse MU, and is perfectly fine as is. Bio is a legit playstyle. Biomech is a legit playstyle. Mech is a legit playstyle.
What more do you want. You can't really say they aren't legit playstyles, because MVP/Polt/MKP/Alive have shown that each style can excel vs either of the others.
Sure.When was the last time MKP won a TvT without tanks?If there is any VOD or Replay,please show it.TvT is DIVERSE?All playstyle are legit,but not really strong and winning styles.The best is Marine+Tank.They may open pretty diverse but everything ends in Marine+Tank.Pure Bio cant beat marine+tank.You need tanks to defend or attack,because marines can prevent pretty well drops and got higher DPS than MArauders
What are you asking for? It seems like you want TvT to be rock/paper/scissors. I'll tell you, that's what PvP has been for the whole history of SC2. And it's not fun. Be happy that you can play various styles and win with them. Don't ask for only barracks units (cheap and efficient) to be able to go toe to toe with stronger things (expensive and effective) all game long in huge engagements. Certain units are better at certain things, that's why they exist. Barracks units can't be good at everything or no one would make anything else.
I am not looking fot Rock/paper/scissors.Just want to be able to play TvT without tanks.Is it so bad?There arent various styles in TvT.There is only Marine+Tank+Viking/Medivac. And if you dont remember,Barracks Units is the only thing we got in TvP...
I suggest you watch Polt. He has had very many games where he plays just bio. Shit, ive seen him play straight up Rauder only in TvT. Your complaining about the best mirror mu with wrong info dude
edit: see, the guy above me mentioned Polt as well. Bio is legit. I stand by my original point.
BioMech, Bio, and Mech are all viable in TvT. Some may be harder to play than others, and they all have their own pros/cons. But they are viable.
On October 07 2012 01:58 Leviance wrote: MorroW vs Dragon is showing how fun the new Widow mine is right now
The Mine is maybe "fun to watch" but did not solve the main T issues: Late TvP and the TvT. How can mech with tanks stop the P Deathball? 5 Range mines cant do nothing vs Collosi+obs,and this allows Zealots to charge vs Tanks and once again let T die...
TvT. Imagne you with your 10 mines,13 tanks and 20 hellions.The Enemy got 70 Marines+14 Tanks.He just scan,tanks kill Mines and marines go+stim and kill you.We still need TvT to allow mech be viable and BIO without tanks.Maybe if the Warhound come back then Pure Mech>Marine+Tank>Pure BIO>Pure Mech???
It makes me laugh that people still keep saying this. TvT is a very diverse MU, and is perfectly fine as is. Bio is a legit playstyle. Biomech is a legit playstyle. Mech is a legit playstyle.
What more do you want. You can't really say they aren't legit playstyles, because MVP/Polt/MKP/Alive have shown that each style can excel vs either of the others.
Sure.When was the last time MKP won a TvT without tanks?If there is any VOD or Replay,please show it.TvT is DIVERSE?All playstyle are legit,but not really strong and winning styles.The best is Marine+Tank.They may open pretty diverse but everything ends in Marine+Tank.Pure Bio cant beat marine+tank.You need tanks to defend or attack,because marines can prevent pretty well drops and got higher DPS than MArauders
What are you asking for? It seems like you want TvT to be rock/paper/scissors. I'll tell you, that's what PvP has been for the whole history of SC2. And it's not fun. Be happy that you can play various styles and win with them. Don't ask for only barracks units (cheap and efficient) to be able to go toe to toe with stronger things (expensive and effective) all game long in huge engagements. Certain units are better at certain things, that's why they exist. Barracks units can't be good at everything or no one would make anything else.
I am not looking fot Rock/paper/scissors.Just want to be able to play TvT without tanks.Is it so bad?There arent various styles in TvT.There is only Marine+Tank+Viking/Medivac. And if you dont remember,Barracks Units is the only thing we got in TvP...
Just watch any game by Polt. And I daresay he's pretty successful with Bio.
On October 07 2012 04:56 tehemperorer wrote: So if I'm playing PvT, and I see widow mines being used after a fast expansion, just get hallucinate and kill him? Cool.
He can still turn the auto-attack off, just has to do it when the Mine is unburrowed.
On October 07 2012 04:56 tehemperorer wrote: So if I'm playing PvT, and I see widow mines being used after a fast expansion, just get hallucinate and kill him? Cool.
This is how the oracle is supposed to work: You clean an expansion but it has some buildings left, you send your oracle and cast the new ability on all those structures so you get some resources out of nothing but energy plus the cost of the unit, which would be quite useful if the game is late and have many bases and you have map control over the remains of one base. Not so bad, but still kinda lame I guess they can find a better ability than this.
The siphon ability seems kind of odd. I could see it being useful if you had multiple oracles and it timed up well for a push, but even then its only like a couple minerals. I would say up the damage and minerals to 5, just to keep everything in order :D
On October 07 2012 04:56 tehemperorer wrote: So if I'm playing PvT, and I see widow mines being used after a fast expansion, just get hallucinate and kill him? Cool.
You can try, but you'll miss the sentry energy :p
and WMs aren't that expensive, if he's going 3rax -> fast starport he'll have the factory up anyway. you can swap it around with a reactored rax, get CS while pumping out 3 widow mines + starport then continue with a slightly later reactor on the starport.
at the moment I'd dare say it's worth it, considering how hard it is for toss to get rid of mines now once there's more than 2 or 3.
(Vote): A Terran-Reaver (Vote): A Terran-Lurker (Vote): Unique
Where is the Terran-Lurker-Reaver, or Lureaver option?
At some point, Frankenstein's Monster stopped being an assemblage of other people's body parts and became it's own individual. The Widow Mine is composed of bits from Terran Spider Mines, Protoss Reavers, and Zerg Lurkers.
I think that this version is different enough to be called its own thing now.
(Vote): A Terran-Reaver (Vote): A Terran-Lurker (Vote): Unique
Where is the Terran-Lurker-Reaver, or Lureaver option?
At some point, Frankenstein's Monster stopped being an assemblage of other people's body parts and became it's own individual. The Widow Mine is composed of bits from Terran Spider Mines, Protoss Reavers, and Zerg Lurkers.
I think that this version is different enough to be called its own thing now.
(Vote): A Terran-Reaver (Vote): A Terran-Lurker (Vote): Unique
Where is the Terran-Lurker-Reaver, or Lureaver option?
At some point, Frankenstein's Monster stopped being an assemblage of other people's body parts and became it's own individual. The Widow Mine is composed of bits from Terran Spider Mines, Protoss Reavers, and Zerg Lurkers.
I think that this version is different enough to be called its own thing now.
Is anyone else worried that the new widow mine overlaps massively with the siege tank? What would be the effect of just buffing siege tanks back to beta/BW damage instead?
also, yeah, it's quite a bit like a reaver. Dammit, why didnt protoss just get a reaver TT
On October 07 2012 07:23 kuroshiro wrote: Is anyone else worried that the new widow mine overlaps massively with the siege tank? What would be the effect of just buffing siege tanks back to beta/BW damage instead?
also, yeah, it's quite a bit like a reaver. Dammit, why didnt protoss just get a reaver TT
No, they have some overlap but many units do. They are quite different o.o they won't work as well in fights. They're still more like mines than tanks.
On October 07 2012 07:23 kuroshiro wrote: Is anyone else worried that the new widow mine overlaps massively with the siege tank? What would be the effect of just buffing siege tanks back to beta/BW damage instead?
also, yeah, it's quite a bit like a reaver. Dammit, why didnt protoss just get a reaver TT
The new mine looks like Swarm Host to me. It attacks while burrowed, it recharges missiles (instead of respawning units) for free. Difference? Other than missiles instead of free spawned units, there's nothing else.
On October 07 2012 07:23 kuroshiro wrote: Is anyone else worried that the new widow mine overlaps massively with the siege tank? What would be the effect of just buffing siege tanks back to beta/BW damage instead?
also, yeah, it's quite a bit like a reaver. Dammit, why didnt protoss just get a reaver TT
The new mine looks like Swarm Host to me. It attacks while burrowed, it recharges missiles (instead of respawning units) for free. Difference? Other than missiles instead of free spawned units, there's nothing else.
Mines are all burst+splash damage, whereas Swarm hosts are more sustained damage.
Locusts provide meat shields vs ground units, and the host can unburrow and retreat behind the meat shields.
Swarm hosts have something like 30+ effective range with the upgrade (and even more with creep).
The only connection is see is Widow mine <====> Reaver but NicolBolas convinced me that it's not that strong of a connection.
Watching morrow play with the new mines, they're really nice. So sad that protoss didn't get more fun new units to play with TT
Just for the sake of throwing opinions out there, I really dislike the swarmhost/BL mechanic of free units for blocking movement and confusing AI. There's no interesting micro to it, you either have enough of them or you don't, and thematically it feels like such an artificial fix to the `swarm'. No chance of losing those units now though I guess, might as well learn to enjoy it ^_^
I'm not sure if mines will make PvT more exciting in the late game. There can still easily be a gateway-colossus ball so long as you keep an observer with the army. I don't think mech will be competitive.
Edit - Well, actually, if mines are burrowed around siege tanks when they siege up, it could prevent stalkers from blinking on to the siege tank. Also, with battle hellions in the front, it can be harder for zealots to approach.
On October 07 2012 07:52 unteqair wrote: I'm not sure if mines will make PvT more exciting in the late game. There can still easily be a gateway-colossus ball so long as you keep an observer with the army. I don't think mech will be competitive.
Edit - Well, actually, if mines are burrowed around siege tanks when they siege up, it could prevent stalkers from blinking on to the siege tank. Also, with battle hellions in the front, it can be harder for zealots to approach.
they do friendly fire so no, they will also damage the siege tank and potentially destroy the mine itself too if close to be within splash range
On October 07 2012 07:52 unteqair wrote: I'm not sure if mines will make PvT more exciting in the late game. There can still easily be a gateway-colossus ball so long as you keep an observer with the army. I don't think mech will be competitive.
Edit - Well, actually, if mines are burrowed around siege tanks when they siege up, it could prevent stalkers from blinking on to the siege tank. Also, with battle hellions in the front, it can be harder for zealots to approach.
they do friendly fire so no, they will also damage the siege tank and potentially destroy the mine itself too if close to be within splash range
mothership core change is fine, they seem to be closing in on what they want that unit's role to be so i'm not too worried about it anymore.
widow mine change is good i think, headed in the right direction at least. hard to tell, probably completely changes it so i'm sure it'll keep changing significantly.
oracle change is retarded. it was a dumb boring ability when the viper had it and it's dumb and boring now. the oracle really needs some utility so it can participate in battles, otherwise it'll always be the 'herp derp entomb' novelty unit. i didn't get to see many games with phase shield being used but the idea was at least headed in the right direction. i guess the scan-like ability can be seen as contributing but at some point toss is just gonna have observers anyway.
I am concerned that the widow mine change nulifies zerg ability to harrass anymore. I mean its nice that we finally got a siege unit, but now 2 widow mines in the mineral line against muta harrass will do extreme damage to a muta blob.
That combined with the fact that zerg have no early detection means that early aggression is once again nulified.
In a couple of games I have had these used against me aggressively also and i got completely destroyed because of no detection, and the only unit you can actively defend with is roaches.
The oracle change makes sense because the ability they just removed seems to work well with a death ball but the idea is to have the oracle be a rebel unit away from the death ball.
Interesting changes all around. Curious to see how 3 dmg/3 mins per sec does.
(Vote): A Terran-Reaver (Vote): A Terran-Lurker (Vote): Unique
Where is the Terran-Lurker-Reaver, or Lureaver option?
At some point, Frankenstein's Monster stopped being an assemblage of other people's body parts and became it's own individual. The Widow Mine is composed of bits from Terran Spider Mines, Protoss Reavers, and Zerg Lurkers.
I think that this version is different enough to be called its own thing now.
Can we call it... the Super Shredder?
Terran will need a TGRI ooze upgrade though.
No, we call it.. Mobile Armed Nuclear Silo, "MANS", Tho i like the Lureaver name...
WHY BLIZZ? lets give widow mine nukes, and whats going on with the oracle? new ability is way to abstract for me, oracle is too hipster now. protoss keeps getting screwed just give the carrier some awesome buff and be done with it.
The mine is another unit which will do this for both the mine user and his opponent. Needing to pay close attention to your units and even observers as they move across the map, having to scan or check areas before moving in blindly, and having to send single units ahead of your armies to make sure the path is clear are all skill ceiling raising elements which make both playing and spectating more interesting without making the game more tedious. As players learn to adapt to this change they will have more map awareness in general, because they pretty much have to. Map awareness as a player trait is something which should be encouraged all round.
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Muta play in sc2 is easy. It does not require a hell of a lot of micro or the monitoring of multiple locations like it did in SC1. Having to independently micro an overseer at the same time sounds like a good addition to me. It's not like it adds a lot of additional micro to pull off anyway, the overseer has detection at range 11 and the mines detonate at range 5, so you can just click the over seer somewhat close to an area to check for mines. The only hard part will be deciding to either - not engage an area guarded by mines; or - to split out and sacrifice a muta per mine for the potential gain of then being able to engage at that location; or - or dropping a changeling just out of range of the mine and moving it in (or even saccing the overseer) This new additional play requirement also opens up other opportunities for higher level Zerg players to stand out from one another. A really good player will be able to use the fact that they are forced to bring an overseer to their advantage by dropping changelings and scouting the rest of the perimiter of their opponents base for more weak areas to pick at next with their mutas, or to check what transition their opponent is making.
SC2 needs a higher skill ceiling to allow awesome players to stand out from the average player. Units like the widow mine (and swarm host when people learn to disable auto-cast for surprise ambushes etc) raise the skill potential of the game for both sides.
On October 07 2012 09:41 DeCoup wrote: The mine is another unit which will do this for both the mine user and his opponent. Needing to pay close attention to your units and even observers as they move across the map, having to scan or check areas before moving in blindly, and having to send single units ahead of your armies to make sure the path is clear are all skill ceiling raising elements which make both playing and spectating more interesting without making the game more tedious. As players learn to adapt to this change they will have more map awareness in general, because they pretty much have to. Map awareness as a player trait is something which should be encouraged all round.
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Muta play in sc2 is easy. It does not require a hell of a lot of micro or the monitoring of multiple locations like it did in SC1. Having to independently micro an overseer at the same time sounds like a good addition to me. It's not like it adds a lot of additional micro to pull off anyway, the overseer has detection at range 11 and the mines detonate at range 5, so you can just click the over seer somewhat close to an area to check for mines. The only hard part will be deciding to either - not engage an area guarded by mines; or - to split out and sacrifice a muta per mine for the potential gain of then being able to engage at that location; or - or dropping a changeling just out of range of the mine and moving it in (or even saccing the overseer) This new additional play requirement also opens up other opportunities for higher level Zerg players to stand out from one another. A really good player will be able to use the fact that they are forced to bring an overseer to their advantage by dropping changelings and scouting the rest of the perimiter of their opponents base for more weak areas to pick at next with their mutas, or to check what transition their opponent is making.
SC2 needs a higher skill ceiling to allow awesome players to stand out from the average player. Units like the widow mine (and swarm host when people learn to disable auto-cast for surprise ambushes etc) raise the skill potential of the game for both sides.
Needing to have an overseer with mutas essentially completely nullifies the mobility advantage of mutas and slows them down to overseer speed. Same with Zerglings.
The speed and mobility of these Zerg units is supposed to be their main advantage, otherwise they have a lot of weaknesses and are very fragile units. Now they have to wait for an overseer to scout everything before they can move. No more Zergling run-bys, no more muta harass. Just more turtle to hive and get Infestor Broodlord, because they're slow as molasses anyway.
It's funny how everyone complains that muta-ling is dead, and even Terran players say they enjoy watching it and playing against it more than Infestor Broodlord, but these new changes are pushing Zerg more and more towards slow deathball style of play.
On October 07 2012 09:41 DeCoup wrote: The mine is another unit which will do this for both the mine user and his opponent. Needing to pay close attention to your units and even observers as they move across the map, having to scan or check areas before moving in blindly, and having to send single units ahead of your armies to make sure the path is clear are all skill ceiling raising elements which make both playing and spectating more interesting without making the game more tedious. As players learn to adapt to this change they will have more map awareness in general, because they pretty much have to. Map awareness as a player trait is something which should be encouraged all round.
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Muta play in sc2 is easy. It does not require a hell of a lot of micro or the monitoring of multiple locations like it did in SC1. Having to independently micro an overseer at the same time sounds like a good addition to me. It's not like it adds a lot of additional micro to pull off anyway, the overseer has detection at range 11 and the mines detonate at range 5, so you can just click the over seer somewhat close to an area to check for mines. The only hard part will be deciding to either - not engage an area guarded by mines; or - to split out and sacrifice a muta per mine for the potential gain of then being able to engage at that location; or - or dropping a changeling just out of range of the mine and moving it in (or even saccing the overseer) This new additional play requirement also opens up other opportunities for higher level Zerg players to stand out from one another. A really good player will be able to use the fact that they are forced to bring an overseer to their advantage by dropping changelings and scouting the rest of the perimiter of their opponents base for more weak areas to pick at next with their mutas, or to check what transition their opponent is making.
SC2 needs a higher skill ceiling to allow awesome players to stand out from the average player. Units like the widow mine (and swarm host when people learn to disable auto-cast for surprise ambushes etc) raise the skill potential of the game for both sides.
Having to have an overseer with mutas essentially completely nullifies the mobility advantage of mutas and reduces them down to overseer speed. Same with Zerglings.
The speed and mobility of these Zerg units is supposed to be their main advantage, otherwise they have a lot of weaknesses and are very fragile units. Now they have to wait for an overseer to scout everything before they can move. No more Zergling run-bys, no more muta harass. Just more turtle to hive and get Infestor Broodlord, because they're slow as molasses anyway.
On October 07 2012 09:41 DeCoup wrote: The mine is another unit which will do this for both the mine user and his opponent. Needing to pay close attention to your units and even observers as they move across the map, having to scan or check areas before moving in blindly, and having to send single units ahead of your armies to make sure the path is clear are all skill ceiling raising elements which make both playing and spectating more interesting without making the game more tedious. As players learn to adapt to this change they will have more map awareness in general, because they pretty much have to. Map awareness as a player trait is something which should be encouraged all round.
---
Muta play in sc2 is easy. It does not require a hell of a lot of micro or the monitoring of multiple locations like it did in SC1. Having to independently micro an overseer at the same time sounds like a good addition to me. It's not like it adds a lot of additional micro to pull off anyway, the overseer has detection at range 11 and the mines detonate at range 5, so you can just click the over seer somewhat close to an area to check for mines. The only hard part will be deciding to either - not engage an area guarded by mines; or - to split out and sacrifice a muta per mine for the potential gain of then being able to engage at that location; or - or dropping a changeling just out of range of the mine and moving it in (or even saccing the overseer) This new additional play requirement also opens up other opportunities for higher level Zerg players to stand out from one another. A really good player will be able to use the fact that they are forced to bring an overseer to their advantage by dropping changelings and scouting the rest of the perimiter of their opponents base for more weak areas to pick at next with their mutas, or to check what transition their opponent is making.
SC2 needs a higher skill ceiling to allow awesome players to stand out from the average player. Units like the widow mine (and swarm host when people learn to disable auto-cast for surprise ambushes etc) raise the skill potential of the game for both sides.
Having to have an overseer with mutas essentially completely nullifies the mobility advantage of mutas and reduces them down to overseer speed. Same with Zerglings.
The speed and mobility of these Zerg units is supposed to be their main advantage, otherwise they have a lot of weaknesses and are very fragile units. Now they have to wait for an overseer to scout everything before they can move. No more Zergling run-bys, no more muta harass. Just more turtle to hive and get Infestor Broodlord, because they're slow as molasses anyway.
On October 07 2012 09:41 DeCoup wrote: The mine is another unit which will do this for both the mine user and his opponent. Needing to pay close attention to your units and even observers as they move across the map, having to scan or check areas before moving in blindly, and having to send single units ahead of your armies to make sure the path is clear are all skill ceiling raising elements which make both playing and spectating more interesting without making the game more tedious. As players learn to adapt to this change they will have more map awareness in general, because they pretty much have to. Map awareness as a player trait is something which should be encouraged all round.
---
Muta play in sc2 is easy. It does not require a hell of a lot of micro or the monitoring of multiple locations like it did in SC1. Having to independently micro an overseer at the same time sounds like a good addition to me. It's not like it adds a lot of additional micro to pull off anyway, the overseer has detection at range 11 and the mines detonate at range 5, so you can just click the over seer somewhat close to an area to check for mines. The only hard part will be deciding to either - not engage an area guarded by mines; or - to split out and sacrifice a muta per mine for the potential gain of then being able to engage at that location; or - or dropping a changeling just out of range of the mine and moving it in (or even saccing the overseer) This new additional play requirement also opens up other opportunities for higher level Zerg players to stand out from one another. A really good player will be able to use the fact that they are forced to bring an overseer to their advantage by dropping changelings and scouting the rest of the perimiter of their opponents base for more weak areas to pick at next with their mutas, or to check what transition their opponent is making.
SC2 needs a higher skill ceiling to allow awesome players to stand out from the average player. Units like the widow mine (and swarm host when people learn to disable auto-cast for surprise ambushes etc) raise the skill potential of the game for both sides.
Having to have an overseer with mutas essentially completely nullifies the mobility advantage of mutas and reduces them down to overseer speed. Same with Zerglings.
The speed and mobility of these Zerg units is supposed to be their main advantage, otherwise they have a lot of weaknesses and are very fragile units. Now they have to wait for an overseer to scout everything before they can move. No more Zergling run-bys, no more muta harass. Just more turtle to hive and get Infestor Broodlord, because they're slow as molasses anyway.
assuming you group them yes. But you wouldnt
What group? Say I want to fly with my mutas and harass the Terran base. If he has widow mines, I lose all my mutas, so I need to scout my entire flight path as I go. And you can't just say, "well I flew an overseer on that path 5 minutes ago, I hope it's still safe", you need to do it right as you go, or you risk losing your entire flock. What difference does it make if the overseer is grouped with the mutas or not. The mutas can't go anywhere without it regardless.
Seriously, really loving that the widow mine finally found a good design! It solves so many problems
One of those problems includes the weirdness of a ground mine latching onto air units xD Shooting missiles makes much more sense.
Also the friendly fire thing keeps it away from army and keeps its role unique, and adds some depth to the strategy.
Non-suicide unit means the supply/cost thing is much more balanced or easier to balance now :D
Does not overlap too much with the spider mine!
Does not make killing worker lines too messed up, since there is 40 second cooldown. They are definitely strong but it takes time for them to burrow and such.
Questions:
How does missile fire work? Shoots closest units first? Maybe putting some units behind worker line where they may drop can make killing the worker line pretty hard.
Can anyone tell me if you can trip multiple widow mines with one unit? They seem to fire so quickly that it seems like you would have to sacrifice one unit for each mine.
Also, does anyone else think that these things burrow way too quickly?
I don't think gosuuser could have played that any worse. Also, I know Husky is trying to keep things interesting with his cast, but he said a lot of dumb inaccurate shit in that video lol.
edit: with that said, I like the widow mine, but I'd like to see it's recharge rate equivilent to a swarm host, because right now it's really hard to deal with swarm host queen and a few infestors... So maybe bump swarm host timer to 40 seconds well? I don't think bringing mine timer down to 30 is a good idea.
On October 07 2012 10:42 Xanbatou wrote: Can anyone tell me if you can trip multiple widow mines with one unit? They seem to fire so quickly that it seems like you would have to sacrifice one unit for each mine.
I don't think they overkill (judging from Husky's video) which is very unfortunate
On October 07 2012 10:42 Xanbatou wrote: Can anyone tell me if you can trip multiple widow mines with one unit? They seem to fire so quickly that it seems like you would have to sacrifice one unit for each mine.
I don't think they overkill (judging from Husky's video) which is very unfortunate
Actually, I'm glad, because Tempest overkill is the dumbest thing to watch in the entire game.
On October 07 2012 10:42 Xanbatou wrote: Can anyone tell me if you can trip multiple widow mines with one unit? They seem to fire so quickly that it seems like you would have to sacrifice one unit for each mine.
I don't think they overkill (judging from Husky's video) which is very unfortunate
Actually, I'm glad, because Tempest overkill is the dumbest thing to watch in the entire game.
EDIT: Besides a certain PvZ strategy.
Overkill for Tempests give players incentive to target fire. Overkill for Widow mines give players incentive to spread them out, rather than clump them up (like in Husky's video).
Not the biggest deal in the world, but I'd still like it more if they overkilled.
The Oracle change is really dumb, they need to stop these "sucking at the building" ability. When are you really gonna need that extra 3 minerals/sec income boost. If I get the Oracle out early and suck on their building, instead of 4 gate i now can do a 5 gates all in! GENIUS! Not to mention you have to spend 50 energy and sit there for some time for it to do any real difference. Seems really gimmicky. Maybe make it halt the productions of the building, seems like a better choice.
On October 07 2012 10:42 Xanbatou wrote: Can anyone tell me if you can trip multiple widow mines with one unit? They seem to fire so quickly that it seems like you would have to sacrifice one unit for each mine.
I don't think they overkill (judging from Husky's video) which is very unfortunate
Actually, I'm glad, because Tempest overkill is the dumbest thing to watch in the entire game.
On October 06 2012 13:15 Thorrissey wrote: Let me get this straight...The widow mine kills cloaked units without detection. Protoss flies observer in to reveal Widow Mine. Observer dies? That sounds realllllly dumb. I'm all for drastic changes, but all of these are real head-scratchers.
gues what happened to ravens and overseers all along? you have to keep them back. Now it's easier to deal with them since you can send in decoy units that trigger the mines first.
On October 06 2012 13:15 Thorrissey wrote: Let me get this straight...The widow mine kills cloaked units without detection. Protoss flies observer in to reveal Widow Mine. Observer dies? That sounds realllllly dumb. I'm all for drastic changes, but all of these are real head-scratchers.
The sight range of the obs is more than the Widow Mine range. But yeah, you will have to babysit your obs a lot more now, which may or may not be a bad thing.
I'm wondering if maybe hitting cloaked ground units, but not air units would be something worth changing. If you need a lore excuse, just say they use seismic sensors or whatever to detect cloaked ground units. However, I suppose we should wait until this has been played around with before we start suggesting changes again haha
I feel like the "seismic sensor" might be the way to go, nice idea.
I'm having a lot of fun with peopl going 4gate against me by the way, they can't warp on the highground and the widow mines just troll them to death. but I actually feel like this is more balanced than it was before, silly all ins were just too good and greedy, macro oriented play too weak, especially in lower leagues. once people start to play more greedy early aggression and "all ins" will be better again. just think of the times were terran could go barracks before depot and when they removed that I thought "terran can never do early pressure again", yet we se 11 11 rax owning every zerg.
I don't think it's fair to compare the Observer with the Raven and the Overseer. At all.
IMO the Widow mine should be visible while recharging, and as compensation have the recharge time lowered to say 20 seconds. It's too easy for Zerg/Protoss to accidentally fly in an overseer/oracle/observer into a mine and thus cannot cross a minefield until they rebuild one. Also encourage good repositioning of the widow mine.
On October 07 2012 13:38 HoriZoNXI wrote: IMO the Widow mine should be visible while recharging, and as compensation have the recharge time lowered to say 20 seconds. It's too easy for Zerg/Protoss to accidentally fly in an overseer/oracle/observer into a mine and thus cannot cross a minefield until they rebuild one. Also encourage good repositioning of the widow mine.
How does revealing itself help balance the game when we already have DTs, cloaked nuke and mass infested terran lob that do not reveal themselves after an attack?
The biggest problem for Terran is there's no burst damage dealer in our arsenal after the siege tank nerfs. Protoss have immortals 50 dmg and DTs 45 dmg. Zerg have Broodlords and FGs. Terran have a red dot and an alarm (nuke).
On October 07 2012 13:38 HoriZoNXI wrote: IMO the Widow mine should be visible while recharging, and as compensation have the recharge time lowered to say 20 seconds. It's too easy for Zerg/Protoss to accidentally fly in an overseer/oracle/observer into a mine and thus cannot cross a minefield until they rebuild one. Also encourage good repositioning of the widow mine.
How does revealing itself help balance the game when we already have DTs, cloaked nuke and mass infested terran lob that do not reveal themselves after an attack?
The biggest problem for Terran is there's no burst damage dealer in our arsenal after the siege tank nerfs. Protoss have immortals 50 dmg and DTs 45 dmg. Zerg have Broodlords and FGs. Terran have a red dot and an alarm (nuke).
Because widow mines as they are are so broken... Your example of DT, cloaked nuke and burrowed Swarm Host all require huge amounts of tech (Twilight, Dark Shrine, Cloak upgrade, Optional ghost energy, Ghost Academy, Lair, Burrow) while you can reactor out widow mines as they are now without armory.
Since it comes out so early in tech it forces early Robo/Stargate play (with Robo being the more obvious choice) with a dedication to observers/oracle and make sure they don't get sniped by a widow mine. All of this could change obviously if widow mines couldn't hit air.
My idea of making widow mine visible is so that it encourages repositioning such as repositioning recharging widow mines behind readily widow mines.
On October 07 2012 13:38 HoriZoNXI wrote: IMO the Widow mine should be visible while recharging, and as compensation have the recharge time lowered to say 20 seconds. It's too easy for Zerg/Protoss to accidentally fly in an overseer/oracle/observer into a mine and thus cannot cross a minefield until they rebuild one. Also encourage good repositioning of the widow mine.
How does revealing itself help balance the game when we already have DTs, cloaked nuke and mass infested terran lob that do not reveal themselves after an attack?
The biggest problem for Terran is there's no burst damage dealer in our arsenal after the siege tank nerfs. Protoss have immortals 50 dmg and DTs 45 dmg. Zerg have Broodlords and FGs. Terran have a red dot and an alarm (nuke).
On October 07 2012 13:38 HoriZoNXI wrote: IMO the Widow mine should be visible while recharging, and as compensation have the recharge time lowered to say 20 seconds. It's too easy for Zerg/Protoss to accidentally fly in an overseer/oracle/observer into a mine and thus cannot cross a minefield until they rebuild one. Also encourage good repositioning of the widow mine.
How does revealing itself help balance the game when we already have DTs, cloaked nuke and mass infested terran lob that do not reveal themselves after an attack?
The biggest problem for Terran is there's no burst damage dealer in our arsenal after the siege tank nerfs. Protoss have immortals 50 dmg and DTs 45 dmg. Zerg have Broodlords and FGs. Terran have a red dot and an alarm (nuke).
Siege tank is your burst, its 35 dmg.
And to be frank with you, marines and marauders are BURST initself.
On October 07 2012 13:38 HoriZoNXI wrote: IMO the Widow mine should be visible while recharging, and as compensation have the recharge time lowered to say 20 seconds. It's too easy for Zerg/Protoss to accidentally fly in an overseer/oracle/observer into a mine and thus cannot cross a minefield until they rebuild one. Also encourage good repositioning of the widow mine.
How does revealing itself help balance the game when we already have DTs, cloaked nuke and mass infested terran lob that do not reveal themselves after an attack?
The biggest problem for Terran is there's no burst damage dealer in our arsenal after the siege tank nerfs. Protoss have immortals 50 dmg and DTs 45 dmg. Zerg have Broodlords and FGs. Terran have a red dot and an alarm (nuke).
Siege tank is your burst, its 35 dmg.
And to be frank with you, marines and marauders are BURST initself.
And they're cloaked? Are they unable to fire until they burrow?
Widow Mine: Widow Maker - Casted Ability - Manual/Auto-cast Toggle Attaches to enemy unit in range Z. You can now use Widow Maker (an ability) on your current target or use it to jump to another enemy unit in close range and deploy. You have (W) time once first attached to use the Widow Maker ability before it goes off automatically.
Widow Maker will deal (lets just say) 40% of the units total hp over X seconds (short, 3-5s) and if it kills its target, it will automatically hop to a nearby enemy (if poss) and deal the same damage/begin the same process. However, if after the DOT the unit has not died, the mine will explode dealing Y splash damage to the unit and nearby enemies.
Why this? I'd like to see more micro involved, and an ability to nullify/counter a unit and its effects with skill. Also it seems it would extremely powerful if used correctly (on low hp units)
Oracle: Bring back Phase Shield, or give the Oracle utility which will help Protoss armies escape without helping them do damage, or Void Siphon could also restore 1.0 shields per 5sec in an area around it. Something that will help incorporate it into play, and the main army.
Idk, just some ideas in case David Kim is surfing. I'd like to see the newest changes... changed; they are really boring IMO. Where is the Blizzard who took risks? They're too damn safe, it's beta! fuck around! ( I know they have been, but I want to see some cool stuff)
To me blizz looks kind of clueless on an abstract level. To obtain an entertaining and balanced rts-game some basic rules should be enforced:
* successful early game harrass should require micro (APM) and good multitasking by the attacker. * early game harrass should not be devastating except one player has twice the apm. Ideally the cost of harrass units compared to damage done should reflect the difference in micro and multitasking skills of both players * the "terrible, terrible damage-no micro required" doctrine leads to a one dimensional metagame * early cloak, early air + hard countering unit compositions make the game very rock-paper-scissor. It should be possible to nullify or weaken the hard-countering by applying micro. * reduce the potential of build-order wins as much as possible.
Ideally you follow a match of 2 players building up macro and tech while constantly harassing each other. The player with the most successful harrass *and* late game army control then wins. If you overdo defenders advantage, you get a 20 min-no rush metagame. If you overdo early game damage of harrass units you get all-innish rock paper scissor games.
Oracle should have cloaking field and mini radius recall! This is true synergy and harass! Why does blizzard keep comin out with weird ways to harass!! Return the cloaking field!
The new widow mines are pretty good, but they need to find ways to tune down the offensive capability. Spider mines can relocate so easily. Slow down the movement speed, or make somehow relocation harder. The way it can burrow, attack and move further ahead makes it look like a mini siege tank.
Widow mines in this state should build 1 at a time and have a longer burrow time. The video with QXC has him just sending in mines and burrowing them by units instead of being a board control. I know the zerg dealt with it poorly in both unit composition and unit spreading. The mines just shouldn't be able to waltz into a base and easily burrow, attack then run away. Zerg and protoss will have to learn unit splitting for sure if mines stay useful. It is certainly an interesting thing to watch and combats deathball a-moving syndrome.
What about fungal vs these Mines? Does Fungal uncloak them and kill them? This VOD makes Mines seem OP vs Zerg,but vs T and P I think they are useless past midgame.
I wish they would make the widow mine make lose its missle in unborrowed mode (and tweak the numbers to make it balanced obviously). This way you actually would have to place the mines before a battle and you couldn't simply charge into the enemy with a ton of mines and blow everything up.
It seems like creep spreading can be stopped pretty easy with these mine,but didnt Blizz say they wanted to see more creep on the map?And what about TvTs Seige lines and TvP mech?Still nothing..This BETA gonna last a lot...
I don't get why the widow mine gets detection... or kind of. Anyway it will attack cloaked units without having detection. Scans, turrets and ravens weren't enough detection? Maybe I'm missing an important aspect of why Terrans need that. If that's the case, could someone please explain why this change is necessary and why it got so much thumbs up?
the widow mine is broken. one shot kills roaches, overseers. played a game where this terran, who is a diamond zerg player in wol, went fast widow mines, and im a high master zerg player in wol, and i couldn't leave my base. i try to detect but they kill the overseer. they don't kill themselves. its a buffed up baneling that doesn't commit suicide. and can hit air. and can cloak. really? theyre going to have to cut damage in half if it keeps all of the other abilities.
On October 07 2012 19:42 Garmer wrote: i think they will end lowering damage aoe and reload time.
Those are the 2 things I hope they don't change. I hope they make it so the missile is slower and therefore can be more micro'd against. Also possibly raise the cost. If ignored I still want it to do the same damage it does now, but when paying attention it is possible for the zerg to mitigate them more.
On October 07 2012 19:42 Garmer wrote: i think they will end lowering damage aoe and reload time.
Those are the 2 things I hope they don't change. I hope they make it so the missile is slower and therefore can be more micro'd against. Also possibly raise the cost. If ignored I still want it to do the same damage it does now, but when paying attention it is possible for the zerg to mitigate them more.
I think the mine has the same problem that (nearly) every Terran unit has after creation. Superearly availability, yet blizzard/people demand that the unit has massive availability throughout all of the game. We had this with marines, marauders, reapers, hellions and tanks. If the widow mine stays fast-produced/reactored+cloaked+reusable+unburrowable+cheap+costefficient+air/ground without requiring any upgrades, it's going to be the same story again at some point, as someone will simply build the factory early enough and be good enough to abuse those properties in the early game.
Having watched part of the HotS tournament yesterday, I can say that I really like the new widow mines. TvT becomes so much more dynamic and TvP and TvZ becomes pretty strategic, as where to position the mines to abuse the Toss / Zerg lack of detection. Also I think the Widow Mine is pretty balanced. If the Mine charges in to burrow explode, then one should simply retreat from the thread, similiar to slow banelings. Furthermore Hydras, Stalker and Marauder can easily clean up Mines with detection.
On October 07 2012 21:32 Snowbear wrote: 1 day and you are all nerfing the widow mine. How many days are terrans waiting for a broodlord+infestor nerf? Yes, much more then 1 day.
not even half as long as P/Z are waiting for the marine/mule nerf.
On October 07 2012 21:32 Snowbear wrote: 1 day and you are all nerfing the widow mine. How many days are terrans waiting for a broodlord+infestor nerf? Yes, much more then 1 day.
not even half as long as P/Z are waiting for the marine/mule nerf.
LOL, good one.
On October 07 2012 21:11 Aurrora wrote: the widow mine is broken. one shot kills roaches, overseers. played a game where this terran, who is a diamond zerg player in wol, went fast widow mines, and im a high master zerg player in wol, and i couldn't leave my base. i try to detect but they kill the overseer. they don't kill themselves. its a buffed up baneling that doesn't commit suicide. and can hit air. and can cloak. really? theyre going to have to cut damage in half if it keeps all of the other abilities.
What? They have range of 5, Overseer has the sight range of 11(I think), anyway, it is pretty easy to go slower with the Overseer and clear the mines, and they now can't turn the atuo-attack off, so you can clear them with just Lings.
ridiculous. widow mines counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked. pretty much deny any agression Z/P can do and can be used offensive also. blizzard is trolling ... its like a cloaked super-baneling with built in detection. Widow mines should also be able to hop cliffs .. or just make them air units
On October 07 2012 22:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: ridiculous. widow mines counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked. pretty much deny any agression Z/P can do and can be used offensive also. blizzard is trolling ... its like a cloaked super-baneling with built in detection. Widow mines should also be able to hop cliffs .. or just make them air units
You mad
Rise (Z) deals quite well with the widow mines, in fact I'm so happy, widow mines' side effect is that they make hydralisks good now! Unfortunately his bad engagements against Thor/raven/viking/hellion killed his chances of winning.
ridiculous. infestors counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked have burrowed movement.
Kidding aside, I can't imagine that the current widow mine will make it to release. Now you just run them in the opponents army and burrow in their faces and watch everything die. They don't behave like mines at all.
On October 07 2012 22:23 zimms wrote: ridiculous. infestors counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked have burrowed movement.
Kidding aside, I can't imagine that the current widow mine will make it to release. Now you just run them in the opponents army and burrow in their faces and watch everything die. They don't behave like mines at all.
That's true if you were fighting someone at the bronze league.
Their timings are NOT secret. Given their current abilities, expect them the same way Zerg learned to deal with early reaper harass back in the early days of WoL (back when the speed upgrade came before factory).
On October 07 2012 21:32 Snowbear wrote: 1 day and you are all nerfing the widow mine. How many days are terrans waiting for a broodlord+infestor nerf? Yes, much more then 1 day.
not even half as long as P/Z are waiting for the marine/mule nerf.
On October 07 2012 21:32 Snowbear wrote: 1 day and you are all nerfing the widow mine. How many days are terrans waiting for a broodlord+infestor nerf? Yes, much more then 1 day.
not even half as long as P/Z are waiting for the marine/mule nerf.
That's why foreign terrans have such a hard time. That's why I saw protoss and zerg players beat marines and beat mules. Do you know what I never saw? A terran beating a well used broodlord + infestor + corruptor composition. Yes yes yes, ofcourse we saw terrans beating it, but only when: - the zerg is stupid enough to clump up his army (hsm). I saw stephano playing split map vs lucifron. Lucifron had a ton of ravens and vikings. Stephano went for pure broodlord infestor corruptor, and he spread them. Lucifron died, and there was nothing he could do.
On October 07 2012 22:23 zimms wrote: ridiculous. infestors counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked have burrowed movement.
Kidding aside, I can't imagine that the current widow mine will make it to release. Now you just run them in the opponents army and burrow in their faces and watch everything die. They don't behave like mines at all.
On October 07 2012 22:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: ridiculous. widow mines counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked. pretty much deny any agression Z/P can do and can be used offensive also. blizzard is trolling ... its like a cloaked super-baneling with built in detection. Widow mines should also be able to hop cliffs .. or just make them air units
Let's remove the cloack, then it's something like the infestor
IMAGINE guys that terran has someting strong!!! Imagine!!! Nerf it NOW, but don't touch our infestor!
On October 07 2012 22:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: ridiculous. widow mines counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked. pretty much deny any agression Z/P can do and can be used offensive also. blizzard is trolling ... its like a cloaked super-baneling with built in detection. Widow mines should also be able to hop cliffs .. or just make them air units
Let's remove the cloack, then it's something like the infestor
IMAGINE guys that terran has someting strong!!! Imagine!!! Nerf it NOW, but don't touch our infestor!
On October 07 2012 22:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: ridiculous. widow mines counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked. pretty much deny any agression Z/P can do and can be used offensive also. blizzard is trolling ... its like a cloaked super-baneling with built in detection. Widow mines should also be able to hop cliffs .. or just make them air units
You mad
Rise (Z) deals quite well with the widow mines, in fact I'm so happy, widow mines' side effect is that they make hydralisks good now! Unfortunately his bad engagements against Thor/raven/viking/hellion killed his chances of winning.
well that was awful. The spider mine was so great because you could deal with it without detection as well. You could kill the spider mine even if it activated. Hydralisks even cracklings (without dying!) could kill mine fields without detection. And brood war didn't have this horrible clumped up pathing. How are you going to effectively split units if you want to do a counter attack with some zerglings? You can only split them in smaller 'balls' as opposed to brood war where zerglings could 'effectively' deal with minefields because you could spread them out so well. And atleast your mutalisks could deal with them if all else fails.
I can't see the widow mine working out like this, because imo the only reason this game lasted so long was because qxc's macro was god awful.
I don't know about hydralisks, they got raped pretty hard by hellions and they're pretty gas heavy and because terran can now deny expansions...
On October 07 2012 22:10 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: ridiculous. widow mines counter everything, have implicit detection, do insane damage and are cloaked. pretty much deny any agression Z/P can do and can be used offensive also. blizzard is trolling ... its like a cloaked super-baneling with built in detection. Widow mines should also be able to hop cliffs .. or just make them air units
Let's remove the cloack, then it's something like the infestor
IMAGINE guys that terran has someting strong!!! Imagine!!! Nerf it NOW, but don't touch our infestor!
Stop it. Just STOP with those "Terran is weak and underpowered!" QQ already. Terran has great units, just because it doesn't have good tier 3 doesn't mean that other Terran units are weak...
And most of the Zerg players want Infestor reworked because right now it is answer to everything, and make game stale and not fun.
I like the idea of the widow mine, but it is far too powerful for when it comes out. Each attack from one is basically a Psi Storm. And the Widow Mine is almost as fast as a zergling, and can cloak. They say they took away the Oracle's cloaking field ability because it was available too early? Right now a single widow mine is better than a cloaking Oracle. And they only cost 75/25.
I think Blizzard went a little overboard with this one. I just don't understand how they can be so nonchalant about giving terran a stupidly powerful unit, while they are stupidly careful about giving toss new things, like the latest Oracle ability. Come on, 3minerals/3damage to a building, channeled for 50 energy? People would actually try out the new ability if they made it remotely powerful.
On October 07 2012 23:24 Fig wrote: I like the idea of the widow mine, but it is far too powerful for when it comes out. Each attack from one is basically a Psi Storm. And the Widow Mine is almost as fast as a zergling, and can cloak. They say they took away the Oracle's cloaking field ability because it was available too early? Right now a single widow mine is better than a cloaking Oracle. And they only cost 72/25.
I think Blizzard went a little overboard with this one. I just don't understand how they can be so nonchalant about giving terran a stupidly powerful unit, while they are stupidly careful about giving toss new things, like the latest Oracle ability. Come on, 3minerals/3damage to a building, channeled for 50 energy? People would actually try out the new ability if they made it remotely powerful.
Blizz ideally should go overboard with all the new units/abilities and tone down with patches.
The new widow mine is so much better. Even if the balance needs tweaking, the basic design is infinitely better than the old one. Its not just "a vulture mine, but shittier". Its much more of its own thing. It also fills its intended role of a map control unit thats hard to synergize with many traditional army comps, thereby incentivizing further breakup of "deathball" play. Plus the "flavor" of hitting air makes much more sense for a launcher than it does for the old design
Ok, after watching Dragons stream for a while I have one concern about the widow mine. From how fast in burrows and unburrows, observers and overseers might have an problem. It looks like it could undeploy and redeploy under a flying detector with a very small window for them to get out of the way.
That isn't a huge deal defense, since that is the mines job, to force you opponent to be careful. But when used aggressively, they could be deployed right under the detecting units and then the player is very limited in how they can removed over mines. I like idea of them being snappy and quick to move around, but the mines might need a cook up time before they can fire after being deployed. It allows them to get cloaked and safe, also also allow the other player to micro their critical units out of the way.
Other than that, the unit looks great. Anything that forcing opponents to flank I'm ok with. I want to seem them used late game with defensive nukes for even further "come at be bro, it will be awesome".
On October 07 2012 23:41 awesomoecalypse wrote: The new widow mine is so much better. Even if the balance needs tweaking, the basic design is infinitely better than the old one. Its not just "a vulture mine, but shittier". Its much more of its own thing. It also fills its intended role of a map control unit thats hard to synergize with many traditional army comps, thereby incentivizing further breakup of "deathball" play. Plus the "flavor" of hitting air makes much more sense for a launcher than it does for the old design
On October 07 2012 23:41 awesomoecalypse wrote: The new widow mine is so much better. Even if the balance needs tweaking, the basic design is infinitely better than the old one. Its not just "a vulture mine, but shittier". Its much more of its own thing. It also fills its intended role of a map control unit thats hard to synergize with many traditional army comps, thereby incentivizing further breakup of "deathball" play. Plus the "flavor" of hitting air makes much more sense for a launcher than it does for the old design
Dunno if anyone else has encountered this on the beta ladder, but you can proxy a factor and float it in to your opponents base, make a few(or just one) widow "mines" (they aren't even mines anymore lol), put them in the mineral line and basically insta-gg for toss/zerg because they aren't realistically going to have detection at that point(you can get a mine out around the 6:30-7min mark without even sacrificing that much). This obviously works best on maps where there is a little room in the main to hide the factory.
The unit is completely overpowered for its cost and tech tree level. Definitely needs a revision.
On October 08 2012 00:43 HardlyNever wrote: Dunno if anyone else has encountered this on the beta ladder, but you can proxy a factor and float it in to your opponents base, make a few(or just one) widow "mines" (they aren't even mines anymore lol), put them in the mineral line and basically insta-gg for toss/zerg because they aren't realistically going to have detection at that point(you can get a mine out around the 6:30-7min mark without even sacrificing that much). This obviously works best on maps where there is a little room in the main to hide the factory.
The unit is completely overpowered for its cost and tech tree level. Definitely needs a revision.
I agree, the fix is really to treat it like a cannon rush.
I like seeing the new dynamics widow mines have now, without commenting on balance, i can see from the QXC replays , that its a unit that requires micro, and pays out handelly for that, so good job, more units like that will be appreciated.
EDIT:
On October 08 2012 01:11 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The mine is a missile launcher now? This makes no sense lol. It's like a Terran burrowed Reaver.
What's with the new Oracle ability? It seems dumb...
Yea i guess its like a fast reaver now (lol)
EDIT2nd:
I also find the interaction with the Swarmhost and Widow mine is entertaining and fun
This patch is so stupid. I'm Terran and after playing a lot of matches I feel so terrible, if they keep the Widow Mine this way I will not play Terran in HoTS at all. (have to say I really love how Terran play, especially when they get even more UP everyday)
I don't care if it's OP or not, I believe changing new number is not hard at all, but its design is terrible.
Tell me, what role does this unit play? Let me tell you, this Lurker-Reaver plays every role, including AA. Kinda like Marine heh? At least they can be micro-ed.
This unit can do anything, it's not as good as other units at anything, but it can do anything. It comes out faster and it's very durable and fast. Imo what make Terran so cool that you can do things differently with different result, you can pressure, you can counter enemy: if they do that, you do this, and it's about taking position and mirco and win cost effective.
Now with this unit: Now they make this? More Mines! Oh they make that? Less Mines. Oh they do what? MORE MINES!
This is terrible, Terran has became even worse version of Protoss. The Mine overlap with everything - not it's not better, but it can plays any roles and get enough time for the players to get a mass push. The Mine kill things faster than an MMM ball and can retreat as fast (the DPS is not as good though). The Mine control space and deal more damage, push enemy back faster than Tank (not as constantly though). It's a better AA than Viking (not as long). It does more damage than Hellion (not as good at map control)...
Worst of all, it does not evolve Terran strategy at all, it does not make Mech better, it does not break Tank line, it just does everything Terran could do, faster but not as effective. Ironically it could not do any base defend as people expected.
Wth? Are all Terran feeling so sore after they remove Warhound that they accept to play a game with a simplified and easier Terran?
111 with Mine, Marauder and few Vikings just crush Toss badly. In longer game as long as you have small amount of hellions to walk around and good base defend to prevent warp in it's terrible over. Zerg got delayed so hard that Terran could expand everywhere and the remaining Mines can delay Swarm Host until Terran get enough Tank and do a Doom push before he can reach Hive. The worst MU ought to be TvT. Going Bio with Mine is crazy now, but unless you can finish the game, it's impossible to break the Tank Line. And Mech vs Mech is even more ridiculous.
It's not exciting to watch when you see all its trick. It's coin flipping like a DT but less risky. It can't be micro-ed (the positioning is more like a trick which everyone will learn). You will see it in every builds. It does not have the ability to turn the whole fight excitingly (lose toe whole fight because of mine is like lose the whole fight because of baneling mine, it's juts not as satisfying)
Oh and also it makes the mid games of all MU so much longer. When Terran can't use Mine effective anymore they will use T1 and T2 units to crush enemy (with obviously worse economy) before other race can get to a good high tech army. Mines actually does not support T3 units very well.
So far the Mine is a HUGE backward from original plan (keep Terran alive when go for heavy Tech like Mech, break Tank line...etc). And last but not least, it's freaking boring. You guys watched it on stream and say "Oh cool" but try to play with such units for 6 hours a day and watch it for 3 years of HoTS.
Oh god the old Mines was so fun to use. Can't they lowered its supply down to 1 and add an upgrade like moving underground or add range or something?
There is something really broken about the widow mine. It's broken because it can kill observers without detection and observers are the only thing protoss has to deal with them....
Keep the mine the way it is, I fuckin love this thing, nerf the damage a bit and call it good brings several new dimensions of strategy to the game, absolutely love it
The new widow mines adds a who new dimension to the gameplay, and its so fun to watch. The damage needs to get nerfed a bit but still this unit DELIVERS. Because of the widow mines we are seeing new strategies and new metagame shift. Terran really needed an early detector type unit like this mine.
The only people who are complaining in this thread are the noobs that 1a all over the map
On October 06 2012 17:14 nenshoua wrote: If you want proper testing send more invites to master and gm players for pete sake...most pros dont even bother with the beta anymore...
As a masters player I support this idea! : thumbs:
Obviously Blizzard is making the mine OP on purpose to get people to use it at first.
I'm sure that several things will change soon. It probably won't be able to attack air units/cloaked units without detection. The cost should increase, the damage nerfed a bit and IMO it needs to use 25/25 every time it rebuilds its attack.
The void siphon thing is stupid beyond words though, they should probably scrap the oracle if that's the best they can come up with...I would suggest giving it a shield recharge ability.
On October 06 2012 07:06 -Cyrus- wrote: I really don't like any of these changes at all. The Widow Mine is just going to compliment bio even more, it's not going to make players want to go mech. Way too strong with this change.
If the new ability shoots air then most likely compliments mech more than bio now spreading some out around chokes and tank lines, frees up some food on thor use to more warhound based mech play
On October 08 2012 05:27 Incognoto wrote: The mine is silly. Too much damage for its low cost.
From following discussions here and on battle.net beta discussion, the only problem is when the factory is floated to either the third or natural and pretty much contain the opponent on one/two base similar to pre-nerf bunker rush timings.
On October 08 2012 05:27 Incognoto wrote: The mine is silly. Too much damage for its low cost.
From following discussions here and on battle.net beta discussion, the only problem is when the factory is floated to either the third or natural and pretty much contain the opponent on one/two base similar to pre-nerf bunker rush timings.
Well a fast tech to to mine especially with floated factory would just die to a counter attack with Roaches and a good amount of Gateway Units. The Splash doesn't really do anything do anything with 100+ HP unless theres ALOT of mine defending.
On October 08 2012 02:04 TheLunatic wrote: Keep the mine the way it is, I fuckin love this thing, nerf the damage a bit and call it good brings several new dimensions of strategy to the game, absolutely love it
Well, glad that at least somebody likes it that was QQing a lot before, lol. Damage doesn't need to be nerfed, but right now, it hits ground, air and cloaked/burrowed units, it is a bit too much for cheap factory unit that is also burrowed and can be made with Reactors. Remove its ability to hit air, or ability to hit cloaked units.
Damage needs to be high because it has really long cooldown, I like the unit quite a lot. Every game I've seen with it was pretty interesting.
Honestly, the main issue is the massing ability (reactored out) and the burrow time being too short. Double the burrow time and only build one at a time and this "run 15 mines and burrow at an enemies feet" thing won't really occur every game. As for people complaining about observers dying... you have way more sight range than the widow mine attacks so it is 100% your fault. That's like saying siege tank range should be lowered because your army gets shelled.
I kind of like this new approach to the WM. It feels a little bit too powerful atm but something that would be cool were if you had to arm the mine in the direction you want it to fire at. Let's give them a 25-35 degree angle in which they can detect units. The user have to position them more carefully and the opponent can destroy them quit easily if they can find the right angle of attack. Kind of how claymore mines work in most videogames.
make the burrowtime be at least 4 seconds again so it cant be burrowed in the face of the opponent.
make it not hit cloaked units (thats just stupidly strong and totally prevents the huge investments into cloak banshees or DTs with a minimal investment in widow mines).
and ffs dont make it hit air unit. (again a super small investment preventing really expensive muta harrass, banshees, phoenix, WP drops etc.)
mines would finally be used in the way they should: as a space control option that prevents zealot/marine/ling runbys and stalls time to reposition the slow mech army and not as a antiharrass and offensive usable supermine vs everything.
On October 08 2012 06:45 Decendos wrote: make the burrowtime be at least 4 seconds again so it cant be burrowed in the face of the opponent.
make it not hit cloaked units (thats just stupidly strong and totally prevents the huge investments into cloak banshees or DTs with a minimal investment in widow mines).
and ffs dont make it hit air unit. (again a super small investment preventing really expensive muta harrass, banshees, phoenix, WP drops etc.)
mines would finally be used in the way they should: as a space control option that prevents zealot/marine/ling runbys and stalls time to reposition the slow mech army and not as a antiharrass and offensive usable supermine vs everything.
With 40 seconds delay and relatively small splash they don't really do that though at least against smart opponents. Right now they're a big and very strong gimmick that isn't something you'd want in later stages but is really nice early game and for some funny stuff.
On October 08 2012 06:45 Decendos wrote: make the burrowtime be at least 4 seconds again so it cant be burrowed in the face of the opponent.
This is one thing I don't like about it. Mines should be a defensive unit, but right now, they're just as good (if not better) for offense. An increased burrow time or lower health would help with this.
Wasn't there a time when the Widow Mine could not detonate when a friendly unit was near it? I really do not like the new design of this unit. And if they should take this (in my eyes stupid design) then they should rename it. I do not think that this is a mine anymore it is some kind of a rocket battery...
Somehow I think Blizz is going the wrong way with the expansion. A lot of thing I liked more in the beginning.
On October 08 2012 06:45 Decendos wrote: make the burrowtime be at least 4 seconds again so it cant be burrowed in the face of the opponent.
make it not hit cloaked units (thats just stupidly strong and totally prevents the huge investments into cloak banshees or DTs with a minimal investment in widow mines).
and ffs dont make it hit air unit. (again a super small investment preventing really expensive muta harrass, banshees, phoenix, WP drops etc.)
mines would finally be used in the way they should: as a space control option that prevents zealot/marine/ling runbys and stalls time to reposition the slow mech army and not as a antiharrass and offensive usable supermine vs everything.
With 40 seconds delay and relatively small splash they don't really do that though at least against smart opponents. Right now they're a big and very strong gimmick that isn't something you'd want in later stages but is really nice early game and for some funny stuff.
I think when people are talking about the burrow time, it is more focusing on the early game when people don't have detection. Right now, the unit burrow and unburrows very quickly. I like that, because I like snappy units. The problem is when the unit is used to contain an opponent in the early game, when people lack detection. Axslav said it in another thread, a widow mine rush requires a robo, but also can look like a lot of other builds unless.
I like the unit as it is, I just don't want it to dominate first 7 minutes of the game with people worried if they are going to get all-ined by widow mines.
mines should come out early, they add a lot of excitement. The widow mine however, is not a mine anymore and the fact that you can't deal with it without detection (as opposed to spider mines) and that they can be repositioned makes it a rather poor implementation.
On October 08 2012 07:41 wcr.4fun wrote: mines should come out early, they add a lot of excitement. The widow mine however, is not a mine anymore and the fact that you can't deal with it without detection (as opposed to spider mines) and that they can be repositioned makes it a rather poor implementation.
Would it be alright if we could do dragoon micro to deal with them?
>< Tried to find a highlight showing best, bisu or stork clearing mines in a game but only saw reavers cut everything to pieces
On October 08 2012 07:41 wcr.4fun wrote: mines should come out early, they add a lot of excitement. The widow mine however, is not a mine anymore and the fact that you can't deal with it without detection (as opposed to spider mines) and that they can be repositioned makes it a rather poor implementation.
Would it be alright if we could do dragoon micro to deal with them?
On October 08 2012 07:41 wcr.4fun wrote: mines should come out early, they add a lot of excitement. The widow mine however, is not a mine anymore and the fact that you can't deal with it without detection (as opposed to spider mines) and that they can be repositioned makes it a rather poor implementation.
Would it be alright if we could do dragoon micro to deal with them?
>< Tried to find a highlight showing best, bisu or stork clearing mines in a game but only saw reavers cut everything to pieces
How do you implement this with the current state, I love the new mine btw
Simple, you make the projectile targettable, and you make it so autoacquired targets aren't fast enough to shoot it down while stop micro can be fast enough.
I like the changes to the Oracle. People complain that Starcraft 2's units are bland and one-dimensional then they thumbs-down any new idea Blizzard comes up with. I think it should only work on a certain number of structures though; perhaps it only being castable on a Nexus/CC/Hatch will make it nearly unusable but it would be stupid if it works on a forward pylon or creep tumor: something the enemy can't do anything about.
The Widow Mine changes seem a bit too powerful considering the missile would one-shot zerglings and 40 game seconds goes by quite quickly.
On October 08 2012 08:29 DemigodcelpH wrote: Mine isn't that good. Image a reaver with a 40 second per shot. No one will use it.
Morrow's using them every single game with pretty great results.
Watch the coLRise video. They don't look very effective. If anything they're average because they take approximently 15 times longer to fire than the Siege Tank.
You can't even target fire them. Zerglings and Locusts hard counter them.
My only problem with the widow mine.. What if he just builds one at the 4 minute mark and somehow gets it burrowed near a ramp or mineral line? It has only a 2 second burrow (1.44 seconds of real time) and that makes 1gate robo pretty much mandatory unless you can get some kind of consistent detection by the 4-5 minute mark. 40 damage splash with the time to regenerate and hit a worker line 3-5 times? If a single mine gets burrowed in a particularly good place it will be game endingly powerful
Is it possible that you could prevent this using either a fast stalker for map control which is already fairly standered in this matchup, or getting a forge ( i know not very desirable). but on alot of maps i think p could shut this down by controlling the zelnaga with a stalker and controlling any non revealed path with a zealot this would insure you see the mine coming so you can delay long enough for detection or just kill it This might even lead to some interesting early game postering. Though i do think that widow mine this will somewhat limit early twilight play from p because unlike their robo and now stargate this does not provide detection, however maybe that's not all that bad seeing as the widow mine will already counter dts. Also widow mine will help a meching t alot vs a blink stalker all in which is a big problem for a mech terran right now as 1 and 2 base blink stalkers are very very strong against mech until the t can reach a certain mass of units.
Altogether i think the changes look great i was worried terran would be stuck playing wol bio vs hots p.
On October 08 2012 07:41 wcr.4fun wrote: mines should come out early, they add a lot of excitement. The widow mine however, is not a mine anymore and the fact that you can't deal with it without detection (as opposed to spider mines) and that they can be repositioned makes it a rather poor implementation.
Would it be alright if we could do dragoon micro to deal with them?
Ok, watching morrows stream right now shows that there may be a bit of a problem with the widow mine. He was able to land a factory in his opponents main, build a mine and even with 4 hellions shooting it, it was still able to burrow before death. He was making mines and burrow them before his opponent could even finish off the factory. They might need to push it back a bit, or make the burrow time take a bit longer.
On October 08 2012 08:29 DemigodcelpH wrote: Mine isn't that good. Image a reaver with a 40 second per shot. No one will use it.
Faster reaver than can burrow and doesn't cost money for scarabs? sign me up.
And they can be reactored out while costing 75/25
Forget that, just fly the factory over to your opponents base and build widow mines there. Then, zip to the mineral line. Better than reavers, since the factory has more HP and doesn't need a shuttle.
I like the widowmine idea, it makes terran think more about repositioning the mines escape path because it is now valuable to keep them. The damage may be a little to strong though, should probably tone it down to 120/40 instead of 160/40..
Oracle is very meh, I feel that they should give it more thought as to what role the unit should really be. I know they want protoss to have an ability to harass, but seems like there should be more thought put into them. Like they could have them contaminate buildings and stop production like overseers aswell as harassing mineral lines. Also a battle spell that can do something would be nice. Like possible recall back 1 unit at a time like blink style.
On October 06 2012 07:15 Teoita wrote: I like how they have no fucking idea of what to do with the Oracle.
Right. If it was only the Oracle......... A mine that burrows to attack air and now launches scarabs? A disguised Firebat that is a transformation from an Hellion? This transformer can somehow be healed like a biological unit in one his forms? A defensive unit that later transforms into a mothership but that turns a Nexus into a big photon cannon? I'm not even going to talk about the Viper, the Swarm Host... Really? Is this for real? Who comes up with this?
I am beyond disappointed? They made up these mediocre models, bad BW look-alikes, and they are hammering them down until they kinda of fit some role that they don't even know what is...
On October 06 2012 07:15 Teoita wrote: I like how they have no fucking idea of what to do with the Oracle.
Right. If it was only the Oracle......... A mine that burrows to attack air and now launches scarabs? A disguised Firebat that is a transformation from an Hellion? This transformer can somehow be healed like a biological unit in one his forms? A defensive unit that later transforms into a mothership but that turns a Nexus into a big photon cannon? I'm not even going to talk about the Viper, the Swarm Host... Really? Is this for real? Who comes up with this?
I am beyond disappointed? They made up these mediocre models, bad BW look-alikes, and they are hammering them down until they kinda of fit some role that they don't even know what is...
(Sorry for my rant TL)
You're complaining about different things here.
First is balance (Oracle) Then logic I think? (Widow mine) Then forcing BW units (battle hellion) Then balance again I think? (Mothership core) Then something about the viper and swarm host.
In terms of balance, yeah, I think there are some problems, but come on, what's wrong with being able to heal a dude in a suit? Marauders are in more armor than the dude in the battle hellion but they can get healed. Viper is probably the best thing to ever happen to starcraft since brood war in my opinion, that unit is hella fun. The swarm host is being tweaked and tweaked some more and is starting to really get there in terms of balance.
The missile launching mine is kinda silly, but whatever, it works to be pretty fun. They probably shouldn't call it a mine, but it's a cool concept for sure.
i think they just didnt understand why void syphon was a bad spell.
they introduced it on the corruptor, unit that is sometimes massed, bulky, and part of zerg, which has possibilities to get mc. the reaction was that it is to weak in terms of numbers and dot-channel-spells on air-untis are really retarded, because air harass usually wants to get in, do damage and get out.
now they reintroduce it on the oracle, which is glassy, part of a turtle race, expensive and never massed. in addition it's a perfect example of "get in, do damage, get out before aa appears". how is syphon supposed to work ever?
i like the purifier change, although i still think that building cannons is the better alternative. i dont like the lower health, because recall will be now even more of a gamble.
i'm not sure what to think of the borrowed missile launcher, it sounds pretty broken, but could work out fine due to the 40sec cooldown. range 5 sounds to much, especially for terran. apart from that getting a bunch of these hard-counters any air and swarm hosts.
On October 06 2012 07:15 Teoita wrote: I like how they have no fucking idea of what to do with the Oracle.
Right. If it was only the Oracle......... A mine that burrows to attack air and now launches scarabs? A disguised Firebat that is a transformation from an Hellion? This transformer can somehow be healed like a biological unit in one his forms? A defensive unit that later transforms into a mothership but that turns a Nexus into a big photon cannon? I'm not even going to talk about the Viper, the Swarm Host... Really? Is this for real? Who comes up with this?
I am beyond disappointed? They made up these mediocre models, bad BW look-alikes, and they are hammering them down until they kinda of fit some role that they don't even know what is...
On October 06 2012 07:15 Teoita wrote: I like how they have no fucking idea of what to do with the Oracle.
Right. If it was only the Oracle......... A mine that burrows to attack air and now launches scarabs? A disguised Firebat that is a transformation from an Hellion? This transformer can somehow be healed like a biological unit in one his forms? A defensive unit that later transforms into a mothership but that turns a Nexus into a big photon cannon? I'm not even going to talk about the Viper, the Swarm Host... Really? Is this for real? Who comes up with this?
I am beyond disappointed? They made up these mediocre models, bad BW look-alikes, and they are hammering them down until they kinda of fit some role that they don't even know what is...
(Sorry for my rant TL)
Then don't play
He does seem to have a point though...
It would be fine if they had a role they wanted to fill and were just trying to find the right style to do it, but they are taking the same units and shifting the roles considerably. They're not trying to add robust options or fix problems with races, they're trying to make their bad ideas work at all cost.
The needs of the races are simple:
Zerg - ranged units, ability to attack in mid game Protoss - Harass, reason to make a stargate, way to deal with broodlords that isn't total bullshit Terran - Reason to make anything other than Marines, higher tier core units, make mech work
How did the new idea for the Widow Mine even pass inspection?
It should have come with a name change also. Give Marines rocket launcher upgrades for the cost instead. I know it's the future, but if you call it a mine, it should behave like one.
I look forward to the next patch, because it's definitely getting changed.
Is it just me or are the changes they are putting in considerably more radical than those they made in WoL beta? They seem to be lacking direction as many of the changes seem a bit arbitrary. Another worrying trend is that the changes seem to become bigger as the beta goes on and not smaller as you would expect.
On October 08 2012 13:24 v3chr0 wrote: How did the new idea for the Widow Mine even pass inspection?
It should have come with a name change also. Give Marines rocket launcher upgrades for the cost instead. I know it's the future, but if you call it a mine, it should behave like one.
I look forward to the next patch, because it's definitely getting changed.
Anti-Personnel mines when tripped fly into the air (between 2 to 4 feet) before detonating. See Blown Away movie starring Jeff Bridges, Tommy Lee Jones and Lloyd Bridges. Uses mines used by the IRA.
On October 08 2012 13:24 v3chr0 wrote: How did the new idea for the Widow Mine even pass inspection?
It should have come with a name change also. Give Marines rocket launcher upgrades for the cost instead. I know it's the future, but if you call it a mine, it should behave like one.
I look forward to the next patch, because it's definitely getting changed.
Am i the only one who is rapidly losing interest on HOTS? Blizzard looks clueless and very inconfident with their game design and makes me feeling inconfident with their upcoming product as well
On October 08 2012 10:31 TheDougler wrote: In terms of balance, yeah, I think there are some problems, but come on, what's wrong with being able to heal a dude in a suit? Marauders are in more armor than the dude in the battle hellion but they can get healed
On October 08 2012 10:31 TheDougler wrote: In terms of balance, yeah, I think there are some problems, but come on, what's wrong with being able to heal a dude in a suit? Marauders are in more armor than the dude in the battle hellion but they can get healed
Why can't you heal the hellion in car mode then?
Medivacs' heal beams are targeted by software that recognizes humanoid objects. Car-mode hellions confuse the AI.
On October 08 2012 16:19 gengka wrote: Am i the only one who is rapidly losing interest on HOTS? Blizzard looks clueless and very inconfident with their game design and makes me feeling inconfident with their upcoming product as well
I know that it's going to be better than WoL, so I'm not very concerned.
On October 08 2012 13:26 DeCoder wrote: Is it just me or are the changes they are putting in considerably more radical than those they made in WoL beta? They seem to be lacking direction as many of the changes seem a bit arbitrary. Another worrying trend is that the changes seem to become bigger as the beta goes on and not smaller as you would expect.
It's a product of design no longer addressing core issues and units no longer having clear design intentions as a result, it's going to be a long beta process at this rate.
On October 08 2012 08:29 DemigodcelpH wrote: Mine isn't that good. Image a reaver with a 40 second per shot. No one will use it.
Faster reaver than can burrow and doesn't cost money for scarabs? sign me up.
And they can be reactored out while costing 75/25
Forget that, just fly the factory over to your opponents base and build widow mines there. Then, zip to the mineral line. Better than reavers, since the factory has more HP and doesn't need a shuttle.
But what if I use an oracle to suck 3 minerals per sec from your building? :D
Void-siphoning 3 minerals per second might not seem much and the damage is like a half zergling. But 3 minerals per second equals 4-5 mining workers or 1 mule. If you imagine a game in which you are low on resources or maybe even mined out or lost most of your workers. Having 5 oracles suck minerals from an enemy building gives you an income of 900 minerals per minute replacing a fully saturated mining base. I could imagine some pimpest plays with this.
Fun fact: if you play PvP and this works on shields you could theoretically gather infinite minerals
MS Core change: MS core should be a defensive unit to let protoss safely expand. I dont know if this is the case when the actual damage output is done by a nexus. you dont have a nexus in choke points or at your army, where the fight takes place. what use does purify have, when you fight at the choke of your natural against a 1base colossus push? or against blink stalker destroying your production? with this mothership core expanding will mean death in PvP again.
Orcale: i have no words for the random abilities the oracle gets one after another. and the funny thing is: everything is complete boring, weird or useless. This one is boring. "oh look an oracle is zipping on my building. guess i have to call a mule/pump 3 drones and send a queen/viking." its only a problem in pvp, because protoss has no anti air with range >6. and it will create situations where an oracle will stay behind the main of the opponent and constantly zipping away on pylons and gates built at the edge of the main. and the opponent has to build a unit just for the sole purpose of killing that oracle, if he wants. every other counterunit to the oracle has another purpose, wueens do injects and are ofc always valuable to zerg, vikings are useable against every other stargate unit and colossus, but the protoss in pvp has to build a stargate and a üphoenix to kill this oracle, and the whole tech is usually useless after. that, because the stargate is useless after all in all matchups despite of being used in openings in PvZ and PvP (and vortex ofc).
widow mine: completely overpowered. a cloaked unit that DETECTS AND KILLS cloaked units? are you kidding? works against the tech units (DT, Banshee, Burrowed infestor) and not against the boring, usual harass methods (mass lings, zealot warpin, marine drop (you scan before a drop and will reveal mines).
i am really disappointed with the HOTS patches so far, they look totally random to me and not thought through at all. its like "we change random things until the community says 'ok.'"" not professional at all. and it does not work this way. the community will eventually say "ok" when we are exhausted enough because of the many patches and changes, even when the game is not good enough to be released. that is because we dont get paid for it, are younger and no professionals and therefore are at our limits much faster. dont try to let the community do work for you, you wont get quality results and your product wont develop. you have to do the work yourself.
On October 08 2012 20:58 Chosi wrote: Void-siphoning 3 minerals per second might not seem much and the damage is like a half zergling. But 3 minerals per second equals 4-5 mining workers or 1 mule. If you imagine a game in which you are low on resources or maybe even mined out or lost most of your workers. Having 5 oracles suck minerals from an enemy building gives you an income of 900 minerals per minute replacing a fully saturated mining base. I could imagine some pimpest plays with this.
Fun fact: if you play PvP and this works on shields you could theoretically gather infinite minerals
Or I could just play terran and not have to spend any of my supply on these super expensive mules
On October 08 2012 20:58 Chosi wrote: Void-siphoning 3 minerals per second might not seem much and the damage is like a half zergling. But 3 minerals per second equals 4-5 mining workers or 1 mule. If you imagine a game in which you are low on resources or maybe even mined out or lost most of your workers. Having 5 oracles suck minerals from an enemy building gives you an income of 900 minerals per minute replacing a fully saturated mining base. I could imagine some pimpest plays with this.
Fun fact: if you play PvP and this works on shields you could theoretically gather infinite minerals
You don't gain the minerals that you steal. The opponent just gets them deducted.
On October 08 2012 20:58 Chosi wrote: Void-siphoning 3 minerals per second might not seem much and the damage is like a half zergling. But 3 minerals per second equals 4-5 mining workers or 1 mule. If you imagine a game in which you are low on resources or maybe even mined out or lost most of your workers. Having 5 oracles suck minerals from an enemy building gives you an income of 900 minerals per minute replacing a fully saturated mining base. I could imagine some pimpest plays with this.
Fun fact: if you play PvP and this works on shields you could theoretically gather infinite minerals
You don't gain the minerals that you steal. The opponent just gets them deducted.
It's the other way around, you gain minerals but the opponent doens't lose them.
On October 08 2012 20:58 Chosi wrote: Void-siphoning 3 minerals per second might not seem much and the damage is like a half zergling. But 3 minerals per second equals 4-5 mining workers or 1 mule. If you imagine a game in which you are low on resources or maybe even mined out or lost most of your workers. Having 5 oracles suck minerals from an enemy building gives you an income of 900 minerals per minute replacing a fully saturated mining base. I could imagine some pimpest plays with this.
Fun fact: if you play PvP and this works on shields you could theoretically gather infinite minerals
You don't gain the minerals that you steal. The opponent just gets them deducted.
No it's the opposite. You gain 3 minerals per second, but the opponent doesn't lose any.
@chosi: 5 oracles is 1k gas, and in return i get...minrals. Not exactly a cheap or smart investment
spider mine is range 1, not range 5..
Numbers can and will be tweaked. The point of a unit is op simply because is both cloaked and detects is silly; of course a unit that can kill whatever can detect it before it gets detected is op but that's why there's a beta going on.
On October 08 2012 21:29 cari-kira wrote: i am really disappointed with the HOTS patches so far, they look totally random to me and not thought through at all. its like "we change random things until the community says 'ok.'"" not professional at all. and it does not work this way. the community will eventually say "ok" when we are exhausted enough because of the many patches and changes, even when the game is not good enough to be released.
Really? Because most of the changes so far have had a clear purpose, IMO. In fact, the community pretty well asked for the MsC and WM changes, it's just that they were implemented in a slightly different way. I can understand if you don't like the exact implementation, but to say that there was no thought process behind the changes is absurd. The only change that really feels this way is the Void Siphon addition, but I have a feeling that Blizz is just stalling for time on that one.
@chosi: 5 oracles is 1k gas, and in return i get...minrals. Not exactly a cheap or smart investment
spider mine is range 1, not range 5..
Numbers can and will be tweaked. The point of a unit is op simply because is both cloaked and detects is silly; of course a unit that can kill whatever can detect it before it gets detected is op but that's why there's a beta going on.
now you did manage to state an opinion and disagree yourself in the same sentence. and my point is, that these changes are random and lead nowhere. there is no direction.
you want examples?
- tempest was meant to deal with great muta flocks because protoss needs useful anti air against this. in the meantine zergs learned that they can just build roaches and then tech straight to infestors/gglords. so bliz forgot about the muta problem and tempest is now a long range siege unit, something nobody needed.
- the oracle was changed to break open the PvZ lategame. now they give the oracle complete new abilities and forget about the PvZ lategame.
you understand my point? its like 1single person does all these changes, and this person has alzheimer's disease and forgets everything after 2 week.
Unfortunately blizzard opened this can of bullshit when they decided to reveal their plans to the masses. Trying to please all of you AND design something good just does not work. Every good idea they come up with gets shot down by the community as OP, bad design, Blizzard have no idea where they are going, not enough like BW, too much like BW, and so on. Game developers have to realize that most of the posts on the internet are nothing more than rants written by bitter halftrolls that have nothing better to do than trying to write intelligent complaint posts to boost their egos. The problem with this expansion is not Blizzard, it is the average forum junkie that base their conclusions on posts and videos. The problem with this expansion is not the ideas, but their inability to follow them through... The reason so many of you seem to think HotS will be bad has nothing to do with Blizzard, it has to do with YOU...
Fortunately there are still quite a few that try to discuss this from an objective point of view... Let's just hope blizzard decides to listen to you and not to the average consumer...
EDIT: Was supposed to include a link to some post a couple of pages ago. Bummer.
On October 08 2012 21:29 cari-kira wrote: i am really disappointed with the HOTS patches so far, they look totally random to me and not thought through at all. its like "we change random things until the community says 'ok.'"" not professional at all. and it does not work this way. the community will eventually say "ok" when we are exhausted enough because of the many patches and changes, even when the game is not good enough to be released.
Really? Because most of the changes so far have had a clear purpose, IMO. In fact, the community pretty well asked for the MsC and WM changes, it's just that they were implemented in a slightly different way. I can understand if you don't like the exact implementation, but to say that there was no thought process behind the changes is absurd. The only change that really feels this way is the Void Siphon addition, but I have a feeling that Blizz is just stalling for time on that one.
well you should have quoted the rest of my comment, that would be your answer: "that is because we dont get paid for it, are younger and no professionals and therefore are at our limits much faster. dont try to let the community do work for you, you wont get quality results and your product wont develop. you have to do the work yourself."
with "thought process" i was meaning "doing the thinking yourself" not "hey, lets just do what the community says, so we arent responsible." of course thats a "thought process", too, but you just misinterpreted me there.
and ppl said that reaver was too op to return to wol... now you have burrowed reaver wich dosent need to build scarbs with free detection and can attack air ...yaaaaaaaaaaaay :D
On October 08 2012 21:55 DarkSeth wrote: Unfortunately blizzard opened this can of bullshit when they decided to reveal their plans to the masses. Trying to please all of you AND design something good just does not work. Every good idea they come up with gets shot down by the community as OP, bad design, Blizzard have no idea where they are going, not enough like BW, too much like BW, and so on. Game developers have to realize that most of the posts on the internet are nothing more than rants written by bitter halftrolls that have nothing better to do than trying to write intelligent complaint posts to boost their egos. The problem with this expansion is not Blizzard, it is the average forum junkie that base their conclusions on posts and videos. The problem with this expansion is not the ideas, but their inability to follow them through... The reason so many of you seem to think HotS will be bad has nothing to do with Blizzard, it has to do with YOU...
Fortunately there are still quite a few that try to discuss this from an objective point of view... Let's just hope blizzard decides to listen to you and not to the average consumer...
EDIT: Was supposed to include a link to some post a couple of pages ago. Bummer.
99% right. just that the "average forum junkie" is not the problem, its blizzards idea to let the community take part in such decisions. people cant change. its futile to tell the masses that they do wrong. and i dont like the "elite" undertone in your post. "most of the posts on the internet are nothing more than rants written by bitter halftrolls that have nothing better to do than trying to write intelligent complaint posts to boost their egos" are you sure that you arent just the developed version of this troll?
On October 08 2012 21:55 DarkSeth wrote: Unfortunately blizzard opened this can of bullshit when they decided to reveal their plans to the masses. Trying to please all of you AND design something good just does not work. Every good idea they come up with gets shot down by the community as OP, bad design, Blizzard have no idea where they are going, not enough like BW, too much like BW, and so on. Game developers have to realize that most of the posts on the internet are nothing more than rants written by bitter halftrolls that have nothing better to do than trying to write intelligent complaint posts to boost their egos. The problem with this expansion is not Blizzard, it is the average forum junkie that base their conclusions on posts and videos. The problem with this expansion is not the ideas, but their inability to follow them through... The reason so many of you seem to think HotS will be bad has nothing to do with Blizzard, it has to do with YOU...
Fortunately there are still quite a few that try to discuss this from an objective point of view... Let's just hope blizzard decides to listen to you and not to the average consumer...
EDIT: Was supposed to include a link to some post a couple of pages ago. Bummer.
99% right. just that the "average forum junkie" is not the problem, its blizzards idea to let the community take part in such decisions. people cant change. its futile to tell the masses that they do wrong. and i dont like the "elite" undertone in your post. "most of the posts on the internet are nothing more than rants written by bitter halftrolls that have nothing better to do than trying to write intelligent complaint posts to boost their egos" are you sure that you arent just the developed version of this troll?
Any 'elitism' in the post was not intended. We have all seen very good franchises go to waste because of the overall 'negative' undertone of open forums, and we have seen game developers make very bad decisions based on forum feedback. That is the point of that post. I know I can not change the undertone on forums, but I can point it out. If it seems like it was a developed troll-post, maybe it was. Maybe not. If you took the time to read it than that is enough for me.
the idea for the widow mine is actually pretty awesome. it would be cool to rename the unit and maybe alter its model to prevent misunderstandings.
as it stands, its not really a mine any more, its more of a mobile missile battery now
but i like the concept, its fresh and new
the concept for void siphon is also fresh and new, and i have to say i like it. not really useful against zerg but makes the unit interesting for pvt and pvp
i doubt the ability will stay as it is tho. it would be cool if the oracle could just steal all minerals that are currently being transported by workers in a given radius... that would pay off especially with mules...
On October 08 2012 21:29 cari-kira wrote: MS Core change: MS core should be a defensive unit to let protoss safely expand. I dont know if this is the case when the actual damage output is done by a nexus. you dont have a nexus in choke points or at your army, where the fight takes place. what use does purify have, when you fight at the choke of your natural against a 1base colossus push? or against blink stalker destroying your production? with this mothership core expanding will mean death in PvP again.
Orcale: i have no words for the random abilities the oracle gets one after another. and the funny thing is: everything is complete boring, weird or useless. This one is boring. "oh look an oracle is zipping on my building. guess i have to call a mule/pump 3 drones and send a queen/viking." its only a problem in pvp, because protoss has no anti air with range >6. and it will create situations where an oracle will stay behind the main of the opponent and constantly zipping away on pylons and gates built at the edge of the main. and the opponent has to build a unit just for the sole purpose of killing that oracle, if he wants. every other counterunit to the oracle has another purpose, wueens do injects and are ofc always valuable to zerg, vikings are useable against every other stargate unit and colossus, but the protoss in pvp has to build a stargate and a üphoenix to kill this oracle, and the whole tech is usually useless after. that, because the stargate is useless after all in all matchups despite of being used in openings in PvZ and PvP (and vortex ofc).
widow mine: completely overpowered. a cloaked unit that DETECTS AND KILLS cloaked units? are you kidding? works against the tech units (DT, Banshee, Burrowed infestor) and not against the boring, usual harass methods (mass lings, zealot warpin, marine drop (you scan before a drop and will reveal mines).
i am really disappointed with the HOTS patches so far, they look totally random to me and not thought through at all. its like "we change random things until the community says 'ok.'"" not professional at all. and it does not work this way. the community will eventually say "ok" when we are exhausted enough because of the many patches and changes, even when the game is not good enough to be released. that is because we dont get paid for it, are younger and no professionals and therefore are at our limits much faster. dont try to let the community do work for you, you wont get quality results and your product wont develop. you have to do the work yourself.
tl;dr these random patches lead to nowhere.
agreed , it's looked more like a guy that make change over and over again to its mod, instead of an expansion done by Blizzard
i agree that mines shouldnt detect, its not like the game in general or terran in particular need even more detection options
as for MsC: what about letting MsC only move in pylon-powered areas? that way it cant be used for early allins and can still have its strong purify ability on itself, instead of putting it on a nexus where its basically worthless
On October 08 2012 23:28 summerloud wrote: i agree that mines shouldnt detect, its not like the game in general or terran in particular need even more detection options
as for MsC: what about letting MsC only move in pylon-powered areas? that way it cant be used for early allins and can still have its strong purify ability on itself, instead of putting it on a nexus where its basically worthless
MsC takes X damage per second when outside of pylon power, which means it can leave pylon power for a duration before it needs to return to save itself. (Or Warp Prisms if you have the multitasking).
One of the design needs that Terran had was that they needed a way to protect their bases against harass, sans-army. Other races have cheap, relatively spammable, no-supply options in Spine Crawlers and Photon Cannons. Now, because Terran gets free supply in the form of mules, it's not too cruel to impose a small supply-tax on their defense. Widow Mine now serves this role - at a 2-4 supply cost per base, you can insure that any harass loses its first few units.
Most of the problems here stem from 2 things: Widow Mines burrow super-fast, and you can get them super-fast. This enables offensive use, which is clearly not the intent. They're also meant to complement Mech, but because of the easy access, they complement everything.
Any number of ways to bring these into balance - they're not fundamentally broken. Cost increase, access limit (armory), or burrow time change would all work.
On October 08 2012 21:29 cari-kira wrote: MS Core change: MS core should be a defensive unit to let protoss safely expand. I dont know if this is the case when the actual damage output is done by a nexus. you dont have a nexus in choke points or at your army, where the fight takes place. what use does purify have, when you fight at the choke of your natural against a 1base colossus push? or against blink stalker destroying your production? with this mothership core expanding will mean death in PvP again.
Orcale: i have no words for the random abilities the oracle gets one after another. and the funny thing is: everything is complete boring, weird or useless. This one is boring. "oh look an oracle is zipping on my building. guess i have to call a mule/pump 3 drones and send a queen/viking." its only a problem in pvp, because protoss has no anti air with range >6. and it will create situations where an oracle will stay behind the main of the opponent and constantly zipping away on pylons and gates built at the edge of the main. and the opponent has to build a unit just for the sole purpose of killing that oracle, if he wants. every other counterunit to the oracle has another purpose, wueens do injects and are ofc always valuable to zerg, vikings are useable against every other stargate unit and colossus, but the protoss in pvp has to build a stargate and a üphoenix to kill this oracle, and the whole tech is usually useless after. that, because the stargate is useless after all in all matchups despite of being used in openings in PvZ and PvP (and vortex ofc).
widow mine: completely overpowered. a cloaked unit that DETECTS AND KILLS cloaked units? are you kidding? works against the tech units (DT, Banshee, Burrowed infestor) and not against the boring, usual harass methods (mass lings, zealot warpin, marine drop (you scan before a drop and will reveal mines).
i am really disappointed with the HOTS patches so far, they look totally random to me and not thought through at all. its like "we change random things until the community says 'ok.'"" not professional at all. and it does not work this way. the community will eventually say "ok" when we are exhausted enough because of the many patches and changes, even when the game is not good enough to be released. that is because we dont get paid for it, are younger and no professionals and therefore are at our limits much faster. dont try to let the community do work for you, you wont get quality results and your product wont develop. you have to do the work yourself.
tl;dr these random patches lead to nowhere.
agreed , it's looked more like a guy that make change over and over again to its mod, instead of an expansion done by Blizzard
I believe this is called the beta TEST phase, let them test their ideas
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage. The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.) The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts. It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now. The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
@chosi: 5 oracles is 1k gas, and in return i get...minrals. Not exactly a cheap or smart investment
spider mine is range 1, not range 5..
Numbers can and will be tweaked. The point of a unit is op simply because is both cloaked and detects is silly; of course a unit that can kill whatever can detect it before it gets detected is op but that's why there's a beta going on.
now you did manage to state an opinion and disagree yourself in the same sentence. and my point is, that these changes are random and lead nowhere. there is no direction.
you want examples?
- tempest was meant to deal with great muta flocks because protoss needs useful anti air against this. in the meantine zergs learned that they can just build roaches and then tech straight to infestors/gglords. so bliz forgot about the muta problem and tempest is now a long range siege unit, something nobody needed.
- the oracle was changed to break open the PvZ lategame. now they give the oracle complete new abilities and forget about the PvZ lategame.
you understand my point? its like 1single person does all these changes, and this person has alzheimer's disease and forgets everything after 2 week.
Hi. The Tempest was designed when massive muta flocks were the problem. They are no longer the problem. The problem is now that the Protoss no longer has the ability to engage brood lord deathballs without a lucky vortex. The new tempest solves this problem.
Funny how that works. Are you going to whine about everything or are you just whining in the same random pattern you claim Blizzard are buffing in?
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage. The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.) The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts. It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now. The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage. The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.) The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts. It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now. The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
The shredder did not have a 40 second reload time
If that was all they needed to add to keep the shredder, why didn't they just add that and remove the mine?
My point is that now that the mine doesn't self destruct, it is in concept the same as the shredder. It fills the same role that the shredder did, a role that the terran didn't need. Its just as easy to abuse offensively as the shredder was, which was the reason the shredder was removed in the first place. They made a change to an existing unit and turned it into a unit that they decided to remove earlier. What gives?
It's like the goal is to make the oracle as gimmicky as humanely possible. They have a clear role designated for it (harass), but they absolutely don't want to make that harass dangerous or particularly useful in any way.
On October 08 2012 21:55 DarkSeth wrote: Unfortunately blizzard opened this can of bullshit when they decided to reveal their plans to the masses. Trying to please all of you AND design something good just does not work. Every good idea they come up with gets shot down by the community as OP, bad design, Blizzard have no idea where they are going, not enough like BW, too much like BW, and so on. Game developers have to realize that most of the posts on the internet are nothing more than rants written by bitter halftrolls that have nothing better to do than trying to write intelligent complaint posts to boost their egos. The problem with this expansion is not Blizzard, it is the average forum junkie that base their conclusions on posts and videos. The problem with this expansion is not the ideas, but their inability to follow them through... The reason so many of you seem to think HotS will be bad has nothing to do with Blizzard, it has to do with YOU...
Fortunately there are still quite a few that try to discuss this from an objective point of view... Let's just hope blizzard decides to listen to you and not to the average consumer... .
Here's why the Oracle is bad design. 3 min/s, that sounds good right? That's a whole Mule. Wrong. Harass units have short burst windows to be cost effective. Mules can safely farm in their base, Oracle has to be under threat of fire to work. Blue-flame Hellions, 1 shot 8 workers at a time, that's 800+ minerals/s that cuts directly into your enemy's economy. A harass unit that requires you to sit there is the worst mechanic ever conceived.
Making your opponent lose resources is more important than you gaining relatively more resources. Loss of resources destroys your enemies morale and screws up their strategy. It also costs them more resources to recoup that deficit. That's harass. Siphon, not harass. Destroy workers in milliseconds, harass. Siphon not harass. Destroying key tech instantly, harass.
Protoss doesn't need any more take X seconds to make opponent sad abilities.
On October 08 2012 21:29 cari-kira wrote: MS Core change: MS core should be a defensive unit to let protoss safely expand. I dont know if this is the case when the actual damage output is done by a nexus. you dont have a nexus in choke points or at your army, where the fight takes place. what use does purify have, when you fight at the choke of your natural against a 1base colossus push? or against blink stalker destroying your production? with this mothership core expanding will mean death in PvP again.
Orcale: i have no words for the random abilities the oracle gets one after another. and the funny thing is: everything is complete boring, weird or useless. This one is boring. "oh look an oracle is zipping on my building. guess i have to call a mule/pump 3 drones and send a queen/viking." its only a problem in pvp, because protoss has no anti air with range >6. and it will create situations where an oracle will stay behind the main of the opponent and constantly zipping away on pylons and gates built at the edge of the main. and the opponent has to build a unit just for the sole purpose of killing that oracle, if he wants. every other counterunit to the oracle has another purpose, wueens do injects and are ofc always valuable to zerg, vikings are useable against every other stargate unit and colossus, but the protoss in pvp has to build a stargate and a üphoenix to kill this oracle, and the whole tech is usually useless after. that, because the stargate is useless after all in all matchups despite of being used in openings in PvZ and PvP (and vortex ofc).
widow mine: completely overpowered. a cloaked unit that DETECTS AND KILLS cloaked units? are you kidding? works against the tech units (DT, Banshee, Burrowed infestor) and not against the boring, usual harass methods (mass lings, zealot warpin, marine drop (you scan before a drop and will reveal mines).
i am really disappointed with the HOTS patches so far, they look totally random to me and not thought through at all. its like "we change random things until the community says 'ok.'"" not professional at all. and it does not work this way. the community will eventually say "ok" when we are exhausted enough because of the many patches and changes, even when the game is not good enough to be released. that is because we dont get paid for it, are younger and no professionals and therefore are at our limits much faster. dont try to let the community do work for you, you wont get quality results and your product wont develop. you have to do the work yourself.
tl;dr these random patches lead to nowhere.
agreed , it's looked more like a guy that make change over and over again to its mod, instead of an expansion done by Blizzard
I believe this is called the beta TEST phase, let them test their ideas
Sure, basically people are disappointed with their ideas...they wish blizzard came up with better stuff. People want to test interesting stuff, not stuff that already at the first glance seems very imbalanced or boring.
So instead of testing more warhounds and tempests, how about something useful, yet balanced?
I'm fine with the changes but my problem with the widow mine is that zerg doesn't have any low risk detection (terran has scans and protoss has obs) every time zerg wants to clear out a mine field he/she has to send out an overseer which cost supply and can be easily picked off I think that the viper ability to give detection was a good idea maybe put that on an ammo system?? 1 per viper? right now there is no real way to kill terran unless it is stupid early imo
On October 09 2012 02:48 TheKwangBang wrote: I'm fine with the changes but my problem with the widow mine is that zerg doesn't have any low risk detection (terran has scans and protoss has obs) every time zerg wants to clear out a mine field he/she has to send out an overseer which cost supply and can be easily picked off I think that the viper ability to give detection was a good idea maybe put that on an ammo system?? 1 per viper? right now there is no real way to kill terran unless it is stupid early imo
maybe changelings set off mines?
also the games DOES NOT need any more detection. zerg has the worst detection, its called a racial disadvantage. deal with it.
Can they do something cool with the oracle now? I think phase shield had more utility - but if it's too explicit (countering fungal) they can give a more flexible skill, like make the oracle recharge your armies shields (like a shield battery costs energy) and when doing so it can't be moved. It'll soften or negate fungal damage without denying the root, and gives it something useful against all races/matchups.
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage. The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.) The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts. It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now. The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
The shredder did not have a 40 second reload time
If that was all they needed to add to keep the shredder, why didn't they just add that and remove the mine?
My point is that now that the mine doesn't self destruct, it is in concept the same as the shredder. It fills the same role that the shredder did, a role that the terran didn't need. Its just as easy to abuse offensively as the shredder was, which was the reason the shredder was removed in the first place. They made a change to an existing unit and turned it into a unit that they decided to remove earlier. What gives?
It right now makes Mech kinda work in TvP though . Because after the they changed Battle Helions Bio they really became bad in TvP since they melt to Archons like crazy.
Well Im not the one who is happy to play in the beta, but after watching some games I came to the following conclusions about the recent patch:
Oracle is just "meh!": The Problem may be not the spell they keep switching, it is more the overall design and purpose. The Oracle feels like a forced harrasment unit. I mean... there is NO unit in the game, whose spell is JUST a harrassment spell... this is what I dont like about it... and the new spell is doing the same thing, but it does it even worse. Siphon was, in my eyes, an interesting spell for the corrupter, because it really adds sth. to them, because they dont get useless after they killed their air targets.
MsC seems to be balanced, but still not very interesting gameplay wise, making the mothehrship a STRONG defence and saftey unit that stays at home and is not easily killed... that is the way to deal with I think. Keep it out of the deathball, keep it at home, let it be strong at home (current purify seems good), let it have teleport (maybe a single teleport for low energy and a mass teleport for high energy). single teleport spell gives harrasment possibilities, requieres a lot of skill... I like this idea!
Widow Mine: Design wise finally sth. that is interesting. Balance is another thing, but I dont worry about that right now. But man do I hope the Widowmine stays like this and will just get some adjustments to Numbers.
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage. The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.) The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts. It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now. The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
The shredder did not have a 40 second reload time
If that was all they needed to add to keep the shredder, why didn't they just add that and remove the mine?
My point is that now that the mine doesn't self destruct, it is in concept the same as the shredder. It fills the same role that the shredder did, a role that the terran didn't need. Its just as easy to abuse offensively as the shredder was, which was the reason the shredder was removed in the first place. They made a change to an existing unit and turned it into a unit that they decided to remove earlier. What gives?
It right now makes Mech kinda work in TvP though . Because after the they changed Battle Helions Bio they really became bad in TvP since they melt to Archons like crazy.
I think changing battle hellions to bio was a mistake, but that's personal opinion. I'll agree that widow mines needed to be more useful in TvP, but couldn't we have made them do extra damage to psionic or something to deal with archons? instead of making them unstoppable in TvZ?
If I have to go down the thought process of having a biological racecar....Has anyone tried mech + medivacs? Does that solve the issue of archons melting them?
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage. The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.) The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts. It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now. The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
The shredder did not have a 40 second reload time
If that was all they needed to add to keep the shredder, why didn't they just add that and remove the mine?
My point is that now that the mine doesn't self destruct, it is in concept the same as the shredder. It fills the same role that the shredder did, a role that the terran didn't need. Its just as easy to abuse offensively as the shredder was, which was the reason the shredder was removed in the first place. They made a change to an existing unit and turned it into a unit that they decided to remove earlier. What gives?
It right now makes Mech kinda work in TvP though . Because after the they changed Battle Helions Bio they really became bad in TvP since they melt to Archons like crazy.
I think changing battle hellions to bio was a mistake, but that's personal opinion. I'll agree that widow mines needed to be more useful in TvP, but couldn't we have made them do extra damage to psionic or something to deal with archons? instead of making them unstoppable in TvZ?
If I have to go down the thought process of having a biological racecar....Has anyone tried mech + medivacs? Does that solve the issue of archons melting them?
It's only been a few days, there will be changes. The widow mine works a lot better than I expected, and it makes mech more versatile. But yeah, there are some issues that need ironing out.
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage. The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.) The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts. It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now. The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
The shredder did not have a 40 second reload time
If that was all they needed to add to keep the shredder, why didn't they just add that and remove the mine?
My point is that now that the mine doesn't self destruct, it is in concept the same as the shredder. It fills the same role that the shredder did, a role that the terran didn't need. Its just as easy to abuse offensively as the shredder was, which was the reason the shredder was removed in the first place. They made a change to an existing unit and turned it into a unit that they decided to remove earlier. What gives?
It right now makes Mech kinda work in TvP though . Because after the they changed Battle Helions Bio they really became bad in TvP since they melt to Archons like crazy.
I think changing battle hellions to bio was a mistake, but that's personal opinion. I'll agree that widow mines needed to be more useful in TvP, but couldn't we have made them do extra damage to psionic or something to deal with archons? instead of making them unstoppable in TvZ?
If I have to go down the thought process of having a biological racecar....Has anyone tried mech + medivacs? Does that solve the issue of archons melting them?
Mech with Medivacs if not all that good since it takes away ALOT of Gas from your Core Units while only benefitting your buffer units . And not even that greatly to be honest because Archons deal 50-57~ with Splash . Strangly enough Bio + BH works well since you'll need Medivacs there anyway and BH deal with Zealots which is Bio's big weakness pretty well even at lower upgrades as long as you get Blueflame . But with Mech Medivacs aren't really useful so thats not really an option.
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage. The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.) The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts. It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now. The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
The shredder did not have a 40 second reload time
If that was all they needed to add to keep the shredder, why didn't they just add that and remove the mine?
My point is that now that the mine doesn't self destruct, it is in concept the same as the shredder. It fills the same role that the shredder did, a role that the terran didn't need. Its just as easy to abuse offensively as the shredder was, which was the reason the shredder was removed in the first place. They made a change to an existing unit and turned it into a unit that they decided to remove earlier. What gives?
It right now makes Mech kinda work in TvP though . Because after the they changed Battle Helions Bio they really became bad in TvP since they melt to Archons like crazy.
I think changing battle hellions to bio was a mistake, but that's personal opinion. I'll agree that widow mines needed to be more useful in TvP, but couldn't we have made them do extra damage to psionic or something to deal with archons? instead of making them unstoppable in TvZ?
If I have to go down the thought process of having a biological racecar....Has anyone tried mech + medivacs? Does that solve the issue of archons melting them?
Mech with Medivacs if not all that good since it takes away ALOT of Gas from your Core Units while only benefitting your buffer units . And not even that greatly to be honest because Archons deal 50-57~ with Splash . Strangly enough Bio + BH works well since you'll need Medivacs there anyway and BH deal with Zealots which is Bio's big weakness pretty well even at lower upgrades as long as you get Blueflame . But with Mech Medivacs aren't really useful so thats not really an option.
Sort of the explanation I was expecting, but I had to ask since I've never tried it. Well, to my point... the widow mine could've been altered differently to meet this need in TvP, without completely destroying TvZ as seen in this QXC game.
Oracle is the biggest troll unit in mine out situations now (kinda like it otherwise expensive observer, bad warp prism ... like the Tempest is a bad Carrier, must be hard for the HotS units for Toss and the ones that created them), but together with Queens you can turn Zerg buildings into mineral generators ... if you work together with your enemy... Still the Oracle is a nice throw in the mix if you go Stargate.
And if you go mech having a Medivac for drop saves you a bit of repair cost on Hellions, small bonus ... as for Archons destroying them in battle form, they needed another conter and the Archon actually was the best choice Imo. That being said normal Hellions tank Archons quiet well, so Hellion and Battle Hellions are needde and in a good position. You want Hellions anyway between your Battles. Widow mine will probably end up tech labbed, seeing all those scout factories landing everywhere and trying to build mines.
I want the last version back, autocast can be so frustrating. But it would be actually pretty funny if they would launch missiles like seeker missiles, so you can pull those missiles into opponents if you know what you are doing. Red laser tagger on the mines target, then the missiles flies and you have a tiny moment to position your unit, should also hit the last position of the target even if its dead or loaded in. Mini Reaver !
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage. The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.) The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts. It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now. The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
The shredder did not have a 40 second reload time
If that was all they needed to add to keep the shredder, why didn't they just add that and remove the mine?
My point is that now that the mine doesn't self destruct, it is in concept the same as the shredder. It fills the same role that the shredder did, a role that the terran didn't need. Its just as easy to abuse offensively as the shredder was, which was the reason the shredder was removed in the first place. They made a change to an existing unit and turned it into a unit that they decided to remove earlier. What gives?
It right now makes Mech kinda work in TvP though . Because after the they changed Battle Helions Bio they really became bad in TvP since they melt to Archons like crazy.
I think changing battle hellions to bio was a mistake, but that's personal opinion. I'll agree that widow mines needed to be more useful in TvP, but couldn't we have made them do extra damage to psionic or something to deal with archons? instead of making them unstoppable in TvZ?
If I have to go down the thought process of having a biological racecar....Has anyone tried mech + medivacs? Does that solve the issue of archons melting them?
Mech with Medivacs if not all that good since it takes away ALOT of Gas from your Core Units while only benefitting your buffer units . And not even that greatly to be honest because Archons deal 50-57~ with Splash . Strangly enough Bio + BH works well since you'll need Medivacs there anyway and BH deal with Zealots which is Bio's big weakness pretty well even at lower upgrades as long as you get Blueflame . But with Mech Medivacs aren't really useful so thats not really an option.
Are you sure? The biggest problem with bio + BH I see is upgrades and to a lesser extent mobility. As you kind need air upgrades for Vikings, adding ground mech upgrades become a too much to bear. So it would be 0/0 BH (with Blueflame) against 3 / 3 Chargelots in the lategame. If someone has HOTS beta this would be an interesting test. The other point is their slow movement speed, bio often depends on kiting chargelots / the protoss army in general, which gets difficult with BH.
And upon the day of the fifth balance update, Umpteen looked upon the Terrans, and he saw much rejoicing. And he spoke to them, asking "Why do you rejoice?" And they answered him: "We celebrate for now we too have Banelings!" And Umpteen's brow was furrowed, for the Baneling was a Zerg creation. Seeing his countenance, the Terrans hastened to explain: "Not true banelings, but machines made in their likeness."
"Machines that destroy themselves valiantly in battle, so others may live?" Umpteen asked, perplexed. And there was great mirth at his words. "Nay," spoke the Terrans. "The machine lives on to fight again."
Next Umpteen asked, "Machines capable of inflicting twenty damage, and thirty-five against light?" Again there was great mirth. "Nay," was the reply. "Forty to all! And sixty and one hundred to the one struck."
Umpteen spoke again: "Still, machines which must cleave to their targets." Once more they answered "Nay!"
"Fragile things!" he gasped. "Quick to expire!" "Thrice nay!" was the answer. "They have the strength of the noble Hydra!"
"Then surely the cost must be commensurate!" he declared, and there was uproarious laughter. "Scarcely half! A pittance more than the baneling itself!"
In great consternation, he cried "But there is no upgrade to hide them from sight!" "Nay!" was the taunting cry. "Nay, for they are born with this facility! And they see all; strike all - yea, even those things that hide in the earth or fly over it or veil themselves from mortal sight." And the noise of their merriment was considerable.
And lo, as it was before and as it was prophesised, the Heart of the Swarm expansion condemned the Zerg race to the Augean Stables, there with their bare hands to deal again with almost inconceivable quantities of bullshit.
This unit has a new missile ability called Unstable Payload. Unstable Payload is an auto-cast ability that initiates once the Widow Mine is burrowed. It cannot be turned off unless the unit is unburrowed. This ability launches a missile at a target within 5 range, then starts to rearm another missile. Unstable Payload does 160 damage to a single target and 40 splash damage. The missile auto-acquires cloaked units. (Note: It will auto attack cloaked units without having detection.) The missile auto-acquires temporary units like Hallucinations, Infested Terrans, and Locusts. It takes 40 seconds to rearm the missile. The cost is free for now. The build time of this unit has increased to 40 seconds.
I'm not seeing how this is any different than the shredder. It needs to be burrowed to attack. It does AoE to air and ground. They removed the shredder because it was strong and could be used offensively. Now they put it back in and called it a "mine." I really don't get this change, and wish they'd come up with new and interesting ideas instead of circling around to the same things again and again.
The shredder did not have a 40 second reload time
If that was all they needed to add to keep the shredder, why didn't they just add that and remove the mine?
My point is that now that the mine doesn't self destruct, it is in concept the same as the shredder. It fills the same role that the shredder did, a role that the terran didn't need. Its just as easy to abuse offensively as the shredder was, which was the reason the shredder was removed in the first place. They made a change to an existing unit and turned it into a unit that they decided to remove earlier. What gives?
It right now makes Mech kinda work in TvP though . Because after the they changed Battle Helions Bio they really became bad in TvP since they melt to Archons like crazy.
I think changing battle hellions to bio was a mistake, but that's personal opinion. I'll agree that widow mines needed to be more useful in TvP, but couldn't we have made them do extra damage to psionic or something to deal with archons? instead of making them unstoppable in TvZ?
If I have to go down the thought process of having a biological racecar....Has anyone tried mech + medivacs? Does that solve the issue of archons melting them?
Mech with Medivacs if not all that good since it takes away ALOT of Gas from your Core Units while only benefitting your buffer units . And not even that greatly to be honest because Archons deal 50-57~ with Splash . Strangly enough Bio + BH works well since you'll need Medivacs there anyway and BH deal with Zealots which is Bio's big weakness pretty well even at lower upgrades as long as you get Blueflame . But with Mech Medivacs aren't really useful so thats not really an option.
Are you sure? The biggest problem with bio + BH I see is upgrades and to a lesser extent mobility. As you kind need air upgrades for Vikings, adding ground mech upgrades become a too much to bear. So it would be 0/0 BH (with Blueflame) against 3 / 3 Chargelots in the lategame. If someone has HOTS beta this would be an interesting test. The other point is their slow movement speed, bio often depends on kiting chargelots / the protoss army in general, which gets difficult with BH.
Well even at 0/0 they deal with Zealots pretty well even though they themselves die pretty fast. And getting a second armory for +1 or +2 isn't really a problem. The mobility part well they move just as fast as unstimmed Bio . For the kiting part well you can kite with your Bio if you have to although a nicely build wall of BH for Zealots will Buffer pretty nicely and and gives the Bio more time to reach/kill the more vulnerable parts of the Toss army. When the Zealots are gone you don't really need to kite anymore and can focus on spreading your Bio to move in. Has to be done before a new wave of Zealots arrives though. BH/Helion build pretty fast but still have to move around to your army.
On October 09 2012 05:44 Umpteen wrote: And upon the day of the fifth balance update, Umpteen looked upon the Terrans, and he saw much rejoicing. And he spoke to them, asking "Why do you rejoice?" And they answered him: "We celebrate for now we too have Banelings!" And Umpteen's brow was furrowed, for the Baneling was a Zerg creation. Seeing his countenance, the Terrans hastened to explain: "Not true banelings, but machines made in their likeness."
"Machines that destroy themselves valiantly in battle, so others may live?" Umpteen asked, perplexed. And there was great mirth at his words. "Nay," spoke the Terrans. "The machine lives on to fight again."
Next Umpteen asked, "Machines capable of inflicting twenty damage, and thirty-five against light?" Again there was great mirth. "Nay," was the reply. "Forty to all! And sixty and one hundred to the one struck."
Umpteen spoke again: "Still, machines which must cleave to their targets." Once more they answered "Nay!"
"Fragile things!" he gasped. "Quick to expire!" "Thrice nay!" was the answer. "They have the strength of the noble Hydra!"
"Then surely the cost must be commensurate!" he declared, and there was uproarious laughter. "Scarcely half! A pittance more than the baneling itself!"
In great consternation, he cried "But there is no upgrade to hide them from sight!" "Nay!" was the taunting cry. "Nay, for they are born with this facility! And they see all; strike all - yea, even those things that hide in the earth or fly over it or veil themselves from mortal sight." And the noise of their merriment was considerable.
And lo, as it was before and as it was prophesised, the Heart of the Swarm expansion condemned the Zerg race to the Augean Stables, there with their bare hands to deal again with almost inconceivable quantities of bullshit.
On October 09 2012 05:44 Umpteen wrote: And upon the day of the fifth balance update, Umpteen looked upon the Terrans, and he saw much rejoicing. And he spoke to them, asking "Why do you rejoice?" And they answered him: "We celebrate for now we too have Banelings!" And Umpteen's brow was furrowed, for the Baneling was a Zerg creation. Seeing his countenance, the Terrans hastened to explain: "Not true banelings, but machines made in their likeness."
"Machines that destroy themselves valiantly in battle, so others may live?" Umpteen asked, perplexed. And there was great mirth at his words. "Nay," spoke the Terrans. "The machine lives on to fight again."
Next Umpteen asked, "Machines capable of inflicting twenty damage, and thirty-five against light?" Again there was great mirth. "Nay," was the reply. "Forty to all! And sixty and one hundred to the one struck."
Umpteen spoke again: "Still, machines which must cleave to their targets." Once more they answered "Nay!"
"Fragile things!" he gasped. "Quick to expire!" "Thrice nay!" was the answer. "They have the strength of the noble Hydra!"
"Then surely the cost must be commensurate!" he declared, and there was uproarious laughter. "Scarcely half! A pittance more than the baneling itself!"
In great consternation, he cried "But there is no upgrade to hide them from sight!" "Nay!" was the taunting cry. "Nay, for they are born with this facility! And they see all; strike all - yea, even those things that hide in the earth or fly over it or veil themselves from mortal sight." And the noise of their merriment was considerable.
And lo, as it was before and as it was prophesised, the Heart of the Swarm expansion condemned the Zerg race to the Augean Stables, there with their bare hands to deal again with almost inconceivable quantities of bullshit.
Don't take this in the least seriously; just a bit of fun
Ok, this is the best part of this thread. Can we get a second hymn highlighting the confusion of the oracle? And that of the stewardship of the Mothership Core?
On October 09 2012 05:44 Umpteen wrote: And upon the day of the fifth balance update, Umpteen looked upon the Terrans, and he saw much rejoicing. And he spoke to them, asking "Why do you rejoice?" And they answered him: "We celebrate for now we too have Banelings!" And Umpteen's brow was furrowed, for the Baneling was a Zerg creation. Seeing his countenance, the Terrans hastened to explain: "Not true banelings, but machines made in their likeness."
"Machines that destroy themselves valiantly in battle, so others may live?" Umpteen asked, perplexed. And there was great mirth at his words. "Nay," spoke the Terrans. "The machine lives on to fight again."
Next Umpteen asked, "Machines capable of inflicting twenty damage, and thirty-five against light?" Again there was great mirth. "Nay," was the reply. "Forty to all! And sixty and one hundred to the one struck."
Umpteen spoke again: "Still, machines which must cleave to their targets." Once more they answered "Nay!"
"Fragile things!" he gasped. "Quick to expire!" "Thrice nay!" was the answer. "They have the strength of the noble Hydra!"
"Then surely the cost must be commensurate!" he declared, and there was uproarious laughter. "Scarcely half! A pittance more than the baneling itself!"
In great consternation, he cried "But there is no upgrade to hide them from sight!" "Nay!" was the taunting cry. "Nay, for they are born with this facility! And they see all; strike all - yea, even those things that hide in the earth or fly over it or veil themselves from mortal sight." And the noise of their merriment was considerable.
And lo, as it was before and as it was prophesised, the Heart of the Swarm expansion condemned the Zerg race to the Augean Stables, there with their bare hands to deal again with almost inconceivable quantities of bullshit.
My suggestion might be remove the widow mine completely, then add abilities to the reaper and thor. The reaper lays spider mines, and the thor gets the ability/missle the current widow mine has as a casting ability. so thor can shoot the missle and reaper lays spider mines, much more fun and more balanced in my opinion.
I mean, so widow mine is now basically a watch tower on a timer.. is that it? Not being able to manually fire is also stupid. What does it add to the game removing the ability to manually target/fire? Only circumstance that is helpful is when player completely misses enemy movement or don't pay attention to them at all. So basically it helps prevent noobs from missing a chance to blow something up. (and the chances are they won't even notice that it blew something up.. lol) How wonderful.
On October 09 2012 07:07 usethis2 wrote: I mean, so widow mine is now basically a watch tower on a timer.. is that it? Not being able to manually fire is also stupid. What does it add to the game removing the ability to manually target/fire? Only circumstance that is helpful is when player completely misses enemy movement or don't pay attention to them at all. So basically it helps prevent noobs from missing a chance to blow something up. (and the chances are they won't even notice that it blew something up.. lol) How wonderful.
Well you can position them to cover your army from flanks and/or to cover a tankline in TvZ/TvP . As defensive units it's not so hot right now with the 40 seconds CD though since it's not really a good idea to leave behind too much supply.
Once enough long range units and detection are out it kinda loses its use but it still way better than before.
On October 06 2012 08:20 red4ce wrote: The new widow mine seems pretty cool. The burrow and shoot stuff mechanic seems a little to similar to the swarm host but I imagine there are enough differences between the units so they don't feel the same. Void Siphon sounds incredibly stupid and useless though. Draining minerals from a building sounds like a rejected WC3 ability.
Grubby suggestion, probably. XD Grunts used to hit buildings to generate profit. (Pillage?)
On October 09 2012 07:07 usethis2 wrote: I mean, so widow mine is now basically a watch tower on a timer.. is that it? Not being able to manually fire is also stupid. What does it add to the game removing the ability to manually target/fire? Only circumstance that is helpful is when player completely misses enemy movement or don't pay attention to them at all. So basically it helps prevent noobs from missing a chance to blow something up. (and the chances are they won't even notice that it blew something up.. lol) How wonderful.
Well you can position them to cover your army from flanks and/or to cover a tankline in TvZ/TvP . As defensive units it's not so hot right now with the 40 seconds CD though since it's not really a good idea to leave behind too much supply.
Once enough long range units and detection are out it kinda loses its use but it still way better than before.
But the design still makes no sense. Even for pros. Unless you stare at the mines all the time, you have no idea which cloaked/burrowed units they hit, since those do not show up on minimap. You can only verify looking at the timer afterwards, "Oh, it must have killed something.'
On October 09 2012 05:44 Umpteen wrote: And upon the day of the fifth balance update, Umpteen looked upon the Terrans, and he saw much rejoicing. And he spoke to them, asking "Why do you rejoice?" And they answered him: "We celebrate for now we too have Banelings!" And Umpteen's brow was furrowed, for the Baneling was a Zerg creation. Seeing his countenance, the Terrans hastened to explain: "Not true banelings, but machines made in their likeness."
"Machines that destroy themselves valiantly in battle, so others may live?" Umpteen asked, perplexed. And there was great mirth at his words. "Nay," spoke the Terrans. "The machine lives on to fight again."
Next Umpteen asked, "Machines capable of inflicting twenty damage, and thirty-five against light?" Again there was great mirth. "Nay," was the reply. "Forty to all! And sixty and one hundred to the one struck."
Umpteen spoke again: "Still, machines which must cleave to their targets." Once more they answered "Nay!"
"Fragile things!" he gasped. "Quick to expire!" "Thrice nay!" was the answer. "They have the strength of the noble Hydra!"
"Then surely the cost must be commensurate!" he declared, and there was uproarious laughter. "Scarcely half! A pittance more than the baneling itself!"
In great consternation, he cried "But there is no upgrade to hide them from sight!" "Nay!" was the taunting cry. "Nay, for they are born with this facility! And they see all; strike all - yea, even those things that hide in the earth or fly over it or veil themselves from mortal sight." And the noise of their merriment was considerable.
And lo, as it was before and as it was prophesised, the Heart of the Swarm expansion condemned the Zerg race to the Augean Stables, there with their bare hands to deal again with almost inconceivable quantities of bullshit.
On October 09 2012 07:07 usethis2 wrote: I mean, so widow mine is now basically a watch tower on a timer.. is that it? Not being able to manually fire is also stupid. What does it add to the game removing the ability to manually target/fire? Only circumstance that is helpful is when player completely misses enemy movement or don't pay attention to them at all. So basically it helps prevent noobs from missing a chance to blow something up. (and the chances are they won't even notice that it blew something up.. lol) How wonderful.
Well you can position them to cover your army from flanks and/or to cover a tankline in TvZ/TvP . As defensive units it's not so hot right now with the 40 seconds CD though since it's not really a good idea to leave behind too much supply.
Once enough long range units and detection are out it kinda loses its use but it still way better than before.
But the design still makes no sense. Even for pros. Unless you stare at the mines all the time, you have no idea which cloaked/burrowed units they hit, since those do not show up on minimap. You can only verify looking at the timer afterwards, "Oh, it must have killed something.'
Seriously?
The working against Cloaked/burrowed units without detction is kinda silly the way it's work currently BUT i get what the intention was behind it. Just needs some tweaking .
On October 08 2012 02:08 sona wrote: The new widow mines adds a who new dimension to the gameplay, and its so fun to watch. The damage needs to get nerfed a bit but still this unit DELIVERS. Because of the widow mines we are seeing new strategies and new metagame shift. Terran really needed an early detector type unit like this mine.
The only people who are complaining in this thread are the noobs that 1a all over the map
EXACTLY what ive been thinking whole time ive read this tread.. lol some protoss and zerg players are NOT used to micro and pay attention to theyr units so theyr A move playstyle is gonna get ruined.. which means, perhaps it will be harder for toss to get master than it is now, cause its pretty easy to get master whit toss in WOL.
Im glad for the mine, I have beta, but havent played it yet. im sure gonna test it out today if mines stay as it is, and warhound comes back. ill be so happy<3
The Oracle channels a beam at an enemy structure that deals 3 damage and harvests 3 minerals every second until canceled. (Note: This ability will not cause the opposing player to lose minerals.)
The range is 7.
The damage/drain effect ticks when you cast the ability and every sequential second following.
Void Siphon costs 50 energy to cast.
This is really dumb, why whould I risk/micro a gassy unit to steal minerals? to make more zealots? If I would like to make this work (Basing to the current state of this ability), I would propose this to be stealing gas maybe 3 gas gain then opponent losses 1 gas or 10 gas per sec but should be stolen from a nexus/hatch or CC, something along those ideas(maybe do some balancing with the exact numbers but you know what I mean). That way you would go out of your way to really make this unit and use this spell. Gas stealing can be a reward IMO not minerals, that late in the game who would like 3 mins per sec, I would rather make more probes and pylons as day9 says so.
I think void siphon is a bit stupid as well, and Im a terran! Mech is still basically useless against toss so there will almost always be an engineering bay for the terran. One missle turret stops just about anything an oracle can do, except block mins. The siphon will go the way of neural parasite I think...
On October 09 2012 19:58 NeWnAr wrote: Widow mines are now swarm hosts that spawns a giant homing baneling every 40 seconds
When you say it like that, it sounds stupid, but you can say stuff like that for every unit out there.
There's all manner of funny with the Widow Mine. Like the fact it re-arms faster than Zerg can actually make a baneling from scratch (40 seconds rather than 44).
But the real lulz, for me, have been elicited by the attitude of Terran players to the unit.
Ever since balance update #3 (maybe even before that), the things have absolutely shit on banelings. Massive single-target damage with no overkill (so your opponent can't nullify them by blocking with Queens or Marauders), 60 splash to all armour types, and you can burrow them right from the get-go and they hit air and they have 90hp. Ok, they're 75/25 and 2 supply, but to do the same damage in splash you'd have needed up to 3 banelings (150/75/1.5) and to a single target as many as eight (400/200/4)!
Can you imagine the shitstorm if Zerg had been gifted a unit like that? The QQ would have made the height of the Cold War look like two English gentlemen trying to side-step each other in a narrow corridor. And yet how was it received in the Terran arsenal?
"Well... we'll try and do something with these things, I guess, but they really ought to be cheaper and cost no supply."
On October 09 2012 19:58 NeWnAr wrote: Widow mines are now swarm hosts that spawns a giant homing baneling every 40 seconds
When you say it like that, it sounds stupid, but you can say stuff like that for every unit out there.
There's all manner of funny with the Widow Mine. Like the fact it re-arms faster than Zerg can actually make a baneling from scratch (40 seconds rather than 44).
But the real lulz, for me, have been elicited by the attitude of Terran players to the unit.
Ever since balance update #3 (maybe even before that), the things have absolutely shit on banelings. Massive single-target damage with no overkill (so your opponent can't nullify them by blocking with Queens or Marauders), 60 splash to all armour types, and you can burrow them right from the get-go and they hit air and they have 90hp. Ok, they're 75/25 and 2 supply, but to do the same damage in splash you'd have needed up to 3 banelings (150/75/1.5) and to a single target as many as eight (400/200/4)!
Can you imagine the shitstorm if Zerg had been gifted a unit like that? The QQ would have made the height of the Cold War look like two English gentlemen trying to side-step each other in a narrow corridor. And yet how was it received in the Terran arsenal?
"Well... we'll try and do something with these things, I guess, but they really ought to be cheaper and cost no supply."
Dude. Please post all the time. Like, in response to every post. This shit is HILARIOUS
On October 09 2012 05:44 Umpteen wrote: And upon the day of the fifth balance update, Umpteen looked upon the Terrans, and he saw much rejoicing. And he spoke to them, asking "Why do you rejoice?" And they answered him: "We celebrate for now we too have Banelings!" And Umpteen's brow was furrowed, for the Baneling was a Zerg creation. Seeing his countenance, the Terrans hastened to explain: "Not true banelings, but machines made in their likeness."
"Machines that destroy themselves valiantly in battle, so others may live?" Umpteen asked, perplexed. And there was great mirth at his words. "Nay," spoke the Terrans. "The machine lives on to fight again."
Next Umpteen asked, "Machines capable of inflicting twenty damage, and thirty-five against light?" Again there was great mirth. "Nay," was the reply. "Forty to all! And sixty and one hundred to the one struck."
Umpteen spoke again: "Still, machines which must cleave to their targets." Once more they answered "Nay!"
"Fragile things!" he gasped. "Quick to expire!" "Thrice nay!" was the answer. "They have the strength of the noble Hydra!"
"Then surely the cost must be commensurate!" he declared, and there was uproarious laughter. "Scarcely half! A pittance more than the baneling itself!"
In great consternation, he cried "But there is no upgrade to hide them from sight!" "Nay!" was the taunting cry. "Nay, for they are born with this facility! And they see all; strike all - yea, even those things that hide in the earth or fly over it or veil themselves from mortal sight." And the noise of their merriment was considerable.
And lo, as it was before and as it was prophesised, the Heart of the Swarm expansion condemned the Zerg race to the Augean Stables, there with their bare hands to deal again with almost inconceivable quantities of bullshit.
On October 09 2012 05:44 Umpteen wrote: And upon the day of the fifth balance update, Umpteen looked upon the Terrans, and he saw much rejoicing. And he spoke to them, asking "Why do you rejoice?" And they answered him: "We celebrate for now we too have Banelings!" And Umpteen's brow was furrowed, for the Baneling was a Zerg creation. Seeing his countenance, the Terrans hastened to explain: "Not true banelings, but machines made in their likeness."
"Machines that destroy themselves valiantly in battle, so others may live?" Umpteen asked, perplexed. And there was great mirth at his words. "Nay," spoke the Terrans. "The machine lives on to fight again."
Next Umpteen asked, "Machines capable of inflicting twenty damage, and thirty-five against light?" Again there was great mirth. "Nay," was the reply. "Forty to all! And sixty and one hundred to the one struck."
Umpteen spoke again: "Still, machines which must cleave to their targets." Once more they answered "Nay!"
"Fragile things!" he gasped. "Quick to expire!" "Thrice nay!" was the answer. "They have the strength of the noble Hydra!"
"Then surely the cost must be commensurate!" he declared, and there was uproarious laughter. "Scarcely half! A pittance more than the baneling itself!"
In great consternation, he cried "But there is no upgrade to hide them from sight!" "Nay!" was the taunting cry. "Nay, for they are born with this facility! And they see all; strike all - yea, even those things that hide in the earth or fly over it or veil themselves from mortal sight." And the noise of their merriment was considerable.
And lo, as it was before and as it was prophesised, the Heart of the Swarm expansion condemned the Zerg race to the Augean Stables, there with their bare hands to deal again with almost inconceivable quantities of bullshit.
On October 08 2012 02:08 sona wrote: The new widow mines adds a who new dimension to the gameplay, and its so fun to watch. The damage needs to get nerfed a bit but still this unit DELIVERS. Because of the widow mines we are seeing new strategies and new metagame shift. Terran really needed an early detector type unit like this mine.
The only people who are complaining in this thread are the noobs that 1a all over the map
EXACTLY what ive been thinking whole time ive read this tread.. lol some protoss and zerg players are NOT used to micro and pay attention to theyr units so theyr A move playstyle is gonna get ruined.. which means, perhaps it will be harder for toss to get master than it is now, cause its pretty easy to get master whit toss in WOL.
Im glad for the mine, I have beta, but havent played it yet. im sure gonna test it out today if mines stay as it is, and warhound comes back. ill be so happy<3
I don't think this is about Toss/Zerg a moving across the map. Cause I certainly don't think so, and feel you are being sore about how hard it is to play Terran. I hope you realize you are just not good enough.
If you pay attention to these threads, most of it are about the early game problem with the mines when detection is not available. Blizzard OBVIOUSLY make mine OP do they can balance from there. the current mine is too easy to use for how powerful it is in the early game.
Widow mine were already fine and pretty good unit, and now it's totally OP. I think overpowered is maybe a not enough good word, it's even better than that. It will definitly have a nerf in my opinion or a lot of player will leave this game.
On October 08 2012 02:08 sona wrote: The new widow mines adds a who new dimension to the gameplay, and its so fun to watch. The damage needs to get nerfed a bit but still this unit DELIVERS. Because of the widow mines we are seeing new strategies and new metagame shift. Terran really needed an early detector type unit like this mine.
The only people who are complaining in this thread are the noobs that 1a all over the map
EXACTLY what ive been thinking whole time ive read this tread.. lol some protoss and zerg players are NOT used to micro and pay attention to theyr units so theyr A move playstyle is gonna get ruined.. which means, perhaps it will be harder for toss to get master than it is now, cause its pretty easy to get master whit toss in WOL.
Im glad for the mine, I have beta, but havent played it yet. im sure gonna test it out today if mines stay as it is, and warhound comes back. ill be so happy<3
I don't think this is about Toss/Zerg a moving across the map. Cause I certainly don't think so, and feel you are being sore about how hard it is to play Terran. I hope you realize you are just not good enough.
If you pay attention to these threads, most of it are about the early game problem with the mines when detection is not available. Blizzard OBVIOUSLY make mine OP do they can balance from there. the current mine is too easy to use for how powerful it is in the early game.
I dislike the kind of very simple soft detection it has. I won't ever open cloaked units against terran now. I mean, they dont need to deviate to defend with an engineering bay, they just need to make a single widow mine from the factory they usually float around anyway.
Its going to kill cloaked banshee openings in TvT as well.
On October 08 2012 02:08 sona wrote: The new widow mines adds a who new dimension to the gameplay, and its so fun to watch. The damage needs to get nerfed a bit but still this unit DELIVERS. Because of the widow mines we are seeing new strategies and new metagame shift. Terran really needed an early detector type unit like this mine.
The only people who are complaining in this thread are the noobs that 1a all over the map
EXACTLY what ive been thinking whole time ive read this tread.. lol some protoss and zerg players are NOT used to micro and pay attention to theyr units so theyr A move playstyle is gonna get ruined.. which means, perhaps it will be harder for toss to get master than it is now, cause its pretty easy to get master whit toss in WOL.
Im glad for the mine, I have beta, but havent played it yet. im sure gonna test it out today if mines stay as it is, and warhound comes back. ill be so happy<3
I don't think this is about Toss/Zerg a moving across the map. Cause I certainly don't think so, and feel you are being sore about how hard it is to play Terran. I hope you realize you are just not good enough.
If you pay attention to these threads, most of it are about the early game problem with the mines when detection is not available. Blizzard OBVIOUSLY make mine OP do they can balance from there. the current mine is too easy to use for how powerful it is in the early game.
I dislike the kind of very simple soft detection it has. I won't ever open cloaked units against terran now. I mean, they dont need to deviate to defend with an engineering bay, they just need to make a single widow mine from the factory they usually float around anyway.
Its going to kill cloaked banshee openings in TvT as well.
TvT is going to be completely changed regardless, reapers with out of combat regen own marines.
Banelings are not a fair comparison to widow mines, simply because widow mines cannot:
- a-move, huge difference already, a marine/widow mine composition is absurdly slow compared a speedling/baneling composition. A well controlled sling/bling army will slaughter a poorly controlled terran army. Whereas, marine/widow mine can only HOPE the opponent misclicks the army into the mine field trying to engage the marines.
- target buildings, marine/widow mine bust? lol. Now that would be OP. - 40s reload, the spawn time for zergling is way faster and the location of where those banelings are morphed give so much greater advantage over Terran.
I'm really interested on what the Protoss buffs that are being installed this week will be. Probably stargate, seeing as that's where the new units are....
On October 10 2012 14:14 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Banelings are not a fair comparison to widow mines, simply because widow mines cannot:
- a-move, huge difference already, a marine/widow mine composition is absurdly slow compared a speedling/baneling composition.
It's slow compared to a speed baneling on creep army. But it's also a hell of a lot more durable - and it doesn't have to die to do damage. I agree it's not a-move, but nor is it reaver drop-micro.
A well controlled sling/bling army will slaughter a poorly controlled terran army. Whereas, marine/widow mine can only HOPE the opponent misclicks the army into the mine field trying to engage the marines.
Not in the games I'm watching. Unburrowed widow mines seem to have a really low threat level, which means Zerglings won't engage them if there are a few marines nearby. Unless you're a minor deity it's not physically possible to split-focus-fire down more than one or maybe two mines before they burrow, so the only options are to retreat or evaporate. I don't know about Roaches so much; I think they might have trouble getting through 90hp fast enough to stop them burrowing. What I see a lot of are widow-mine fields advancing and advancing, trading well or not at all, until the Zerg has nowhere left to go. It's very like a successful sentry-immortal all-in, in that the advancing army keeps getting bigger and bigger, retaining units, and the Zerg keeps getting reset.
- target buildings, marine/widow mine bust? lol. Now that would be OP.
I totally hadn't thought of that. That means my... um... infested barracks and supply-tumour wall can keep them out.
- 40s reload, the spawn time for zergling is way faster and the location of where those banelings are morphed give so much greater advantage over Terran.
Excuse me? 40s reload is faster than making a zergling and then turning it into a baneling. Granted, if I have zerglings left over I can overlap those times by turning those into banelings while streaming more zerglings across the map, but having zerglings left over is not a given. Widow Mines reload right there outside my base, and aren't stuck in a coccoon while doing it! Oh, and they do it for no money or larvae.
You're right, though - widow mines aren't banelings. They're what you'd get if a baneling slept with a siege tank and didn't use protection
I could see reason to limiting the widow mine's abililty to burrow, by making it impossible to burrow into creep.
This should opt for some interesting early game-play, where Z would have to plan creep spread and T try to retort by either using forward hellions or slowly work itself up to the point where it becomes an immidiate threat to the whole Z base.
Sounds imba because then Zerg has an innate racial immunity to widow mine run bys. Seriously watch day9 daily 511, widow mine runby is actually less damaging than a 4 hellion run by.
On October 09 2012 05:44 Umpteen wrote: And upon the day of the fifth balance update, Umpteen looked upon the Terrans, and he saw much rejoicing. And he spoke to them, asking "Why do you rejoice?" And they answered him: "We celebrate for now we too have Banelings!" And Umpteen's brow was furrowed, for the Baneling was a Zerg creation. Seeing his countenance, the Terrans hastened to explain: "Not true banelings, but machines made in their likeness."
"Machines that destroy themselves valiantly in battle, so others may live?" Umpteen asked, perplexed. And there was great mirth at his words. "Nay," spoke the Terrans. "The machine lives on to fight again."
Next Umpteen asked, "Machines capable of inflicting twenty damage, and thirty-five against light?" Again there was great mirth. "Nay," was the reply. "Forty to all! And sixty and one hundred to the one struck."
Umpteen spoke again: "Still, machines which must cleave to their targets." Once more they answered "Nay!"
"Fragile things!" he gasped. "Quick to expire!" "Thrice nay!" was the answer. "They have the strength of the noble Hydra!"
"Then surely the cost must be commensurate!" he declared, and there was uproarious laughter. "Scarcely half! A pittance more than the baneling itself!"
In great consternation, he cried "But there is no upgrade to hide them from sight!" "Nay!" was the taunting cry. "Nay, for they are born with this facility! And they see all; strike all - yea, even those things that hide in the earth or fly over it or veil themselves from mortal sight." And the noise of their merriment was considerable.
And lo, as it was before and as it was prophesised, the Heart of the Swarm expansion condemned the Zerg race to the Augean Stables, there with their bare hands to deal again with almost inconceivable quantities of bullshit.
I just don't understand how this thing can cost so little... If they had given the newest version of the widow mine to toss, it would cost at least 150/100, and people would still be complaining about it.
On October 09 2012 05:44 Umpteen wrote: And upon the day of the fifth balance update, Umpteen looked upon the Terrans, and he saw much rejoicing. And he spoke to them, asking "Why do you rejoice?" And they answered him: "We celebrate for now we too have Banelings!" And Umpteen's brow was furrowed, for the Baneling was a Zerg creation. Seeing his countenance, the Terrans hastened to explain: "Not true banelings, but machines made in their likeness."
"Machines that destroy themselves valiantly in battle, so others may live?" Umpteen asked, perplexed. And there was great mirth at his words. "Nay," spoke the Terrans. "The machine lives on to fight again."
Next Umpteen asked, "Machines capable of inflicting twenty damage, and thirty-five against light?" Again there was great mirth. "Nay," was the reply. "Forty to all! And sixty and one hundred to the one struck."
Umpteen spoke again: "Still, machines which must cleave to their targets." Once more they answered "Nay!"
"Fragile things!" he gasped. "Quick to expire!" "Thrice nay!" was the answer. "They have the strength of the noble Hydra!"
"Then surely the cost must be commensurate!" he declared, and there was uproarious laughter. "Scarcely half! A pittance more than the baneling itself!"
In great consternation, he cried "But there is no upgrade to hide them from sight!" "Nay!" was the taunting cry. "Nay, for they are born with this facility! And they see all; strike all - yea, even those things that hide in the earth or fly over it or veil themselves from mortal sight." And the noise of their merriment was considerable.
And lo, as it was before and as it was prophesised, the Heart of the Swarm expansion condemned the Zerg race to the Augean Stables, there with their bare hands to deal again with almost inconceivable quantities of bullshit.
On October 11 2012 01:01 Fig wrote: I just don't understand how this thing can cost so little... If they had given the newest version of the widow mine to toss, it would cost at least 150/100, and people would still be complaining about it.
Protoss version: Only ground. 3 range. Doesn't detect. 200/200 needs Robotics Bay . Doesn't cloak. Won't attack if other units nearby. Doesn't actually do damage, because that would be deathball.
On October 10 2012 14:14 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Banelings are not a fair comparison to widow mines, simply because widow mines cannot:
- a-move, huge difference already, a marine/widow mine composition is absurdly slow compared a speedling/baneling composition.
It's slow compared to a speed baneling on creep army. But it's also a hell of a lot more durable - and it doesn't have to die to do damage. I agree it's not a-move, but nor is it reaver drop-micro.
A well controlled sling/bling army will slaughter a poorly controlled terran army. Whereas, marine/widow mine can only HOPE the opponent misclicks the army into the mine field trying to engage the marines.
Not in the games I'm watching. Unburrowed widow mines seem to have a really low threat level, which means Zerglings won't engage them if there are a few marines nearby. Unless you're a minor deity it's not physically possible to split-focus-fire down more than one or maybe two mines before they burrow, so the only options are to retreat or evaporate. I don't know about Roaches so much; I think they might have trouble getting through 90hp fast enough to stop them burrowing. What I see a lot of are widow-mine fields advancing and advancing, trading well or not at all, until the Zerg has nowhere left to go. It's very like a successful sentry-immortal all-in, in that the advancing army keeps getting bigger and bigger, retaining units, and the Zerg keeps getting reset.
- 40s reload, the spawn time for zergling is way faster and the location of where those banelings are morphed give so much greater advantage over Terran.
Excuse me? 40s reload is faster than making a zergling and then turning it into a baneling. Granted, if I have zerglings left over I can overlap those times by turning those into banelings while streaming more zerglings across the map, but having zerglings left over is not a given. Widow Mines reload right there outside my base, and aren't stuck in a coccoon while doing it! Oh, and they do it for no money or larvae.
You're right, though - widow mines aren't banelings. They're what you'd get if a baneling slept with a siege tank and didn't use protection
The Widow Mine was purposely made overpowered because Terran has almost no units to compensate for the loss of the Warhound (which was a badly designed and severely overpowered unit). This has been stated a tremendous amount of time. The amount of content in your post that can be misconstrued as whining/bitching is quite high, so I'd suggest you turn it down.
Although I agree that the early contains are hilariously dumb, you have to admit the HOTS meta for TvZ in particular at least looks somewhat promising since Terran can actually actively contain a Z now without him taking a free third.
I just saw up of Dustin's updates. I'm mad. Seriously, Zerg QQ and they could get spore w/o evo chamber, or queen have innate detection?! The fu*k?!
Dayvie Development Team Please remember the numbers on the Widow Mine aren't final.
We're currently in the process of discussing how and where to position the unit as well as the counters to it.
Things we're thinking are:
1. We want Widow Mine to be an awesome new unit for Terran that's difficult for other races to deal with.
2. If Protoss needs more options - mothership core gets some sort of soft detection instead of oracle.
3. If Zerg needs more detection early - remove the evo requirement for spore crawlers
All this is still under discussion so feedback is more than welcome. But please remember we do want the Widow Mine to be a powerful new threat that players have to prep against.
On October 11 2012 14:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I just saw up of Dustin's updates. I'm mad. Seriously, Zerg QQ and they could get spore w/o evo chamber, or queen have innate detection?! The fu*k?!
Dayvie Development Team Please remember the numbers on the Widow Mine aren't final.
We're currently in the process of discussing how and where to position the unit as well as the counters to it.
Things we're thinking are:
1. We want Widow Mine to be an awesome new unit for Terran that's difficult for other races to deal with.
2. If Protoss needs more options - mothership core gets some sort of soft detection instead of oracle.
3. If Zerg needs more detection early - remove the evo requirement for spore crawlers
All this is still under discussion so feedback is more than welcome. But please remember we do want the Widow Mine to be a powerful new threat that players have to prep against.
I just saw Hattori_Hanzos newest post. I laughed. Seriously, nowhere does it say anything about queens, that's completly made up. Seriously, it says "IF ... needs" and you know, all you do is whine about zerg when it says something about Zerg and Protoss. And the word you are looking for is: dafuq!
On October 11 2012 14:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I just saw up of Dustin's updates. I'm mad. Seriously, Zerg QQ and they could get spore w/o evo chamber, or queen have innate detection?! The fu*k?!
Dayvie Development Team Please remember the numbers on the Widow Mine aren't final.
We're currently in the process of discussing how and where to position the unit as well as the counters to it.
Things we're thinking are:
1. We want Widow Mine to be an awesome new unit for Terran that's difficult for other races to deal with.
2. If Protoss needs more options - mothership core gets some sort of soft detection instead of oracle.
3. If Zerg needs more detection early - remove the evo requirement for spore crawlers
All this is still under discussion so feedback is more than welcome. But please remember we do want the Widow Mine to be a powerful new threat that players have to prep against.
Why are you mad? This is actually great. They don't plan on touching Mines(or maybe they do), but give detection early enough so other races can defend better from them, because Widow Mines should be about positional play, and area control, not about being better at offense than defense. That just means that Mines will be at great state, and won't cause serious problems when Terran comes with first two Mines in your base.
I think they need to remove the "mines can hit air" or remove the splash damage from the mine, then people would have some reasonable ways of fighting them (or both). If it cant hit air, then that means observers and overseers can be used far more effectivly in finding and desroying the mines. If it doesnt have splash, then sending some cheap units (marine/zerglings/zeal) in first to tank the damage makes sense, then you can clean up the mine during the cooldown. But if you dont know the mine is there, they can take out a bunch of roaches/stalkers/tanks before you even knew what hit you. Also no anti-air makes you need to defend the mines more from banshees/muta/voids that go mine hunting if someone goes too heavy on the mines.
Having a mine deal splash is reasonable. Having this "mine" shoot projectiles of splash damage is just lame gameplay. Nevermind how much this overlaps with hunterseek missiles (there is zero reason to ever build ravens for HSM again). Instead of the splash damage being a consequence of you stepping on a mine, your army is instead just stomaching splash damage from an attack. SO there goes any micro requirement. Why Terrans are going to build siege tanks when they can build highly mobile widow mines and still have ranged splash damage, I cannot tell you.. There were still ways to improve the original mine without destroying its mechanics. How about just giving in and making hellions lay the widow mines, and have them cost zero food or resources??? How a mine can hit air I have no idea; it's absurd. Blizzard is so lost in their own vanity they've lost all creativity.
Incidentally, with the Widow mine added to the game (and consequence detection changes) there is now zero reason why burrow should not be researchable at evo chamber.
On October 11 2012 23:29 osiris17 wrote: How a mine can hit air I have no idea; it's absurd. Blizzard is so lost in their own vanity they've lost all creativity.
I'm pretty sure we won't have to wait for the year 2500 to create a device that can detect movement in the air...
Still i agree with the name change, now that it launches missiles...
On October 11 2012 23:29 osiris17 wrote: How a mine can hit air I have no idea; it's absurd. Blizzard is so lost in their own vanity they've lost all creativity.
I'm pretty sure we won't have to wait for the year 2500 to create a device that can detect movement in the air...
Still i agree with the name change, now that it launches missiles...
can you please just make the helion cost 4 supply and cost 200 mins and 50 gas or sumthin ? so that it can juse drop the widow mine.. would be so much better for terran..
On October 12 2012 01:16 osiris17 wrote: An automatic AA turret is one thing, an actual mine that is buried under the ground is another. Why would you ever design a mine to hit flying units?
Because it's difficult to hide things in the air. You want Blizzard to make an Owl mine? Hidden in the trees, so that it would be more realistic?
On October 11 2012 14:28 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: I just saw up of Dustin's updates. I'm mad. Seriously, Zerg QQ and they could get spore w/o evo chamber, or queen have innate detection?! The fu*k?!
Dayvie Development Team Please remember the numbers on the Widow Mine aren't final.
We're currently in the process of discussing how and where to position the unit as well as the counters to it.
Things we're thinking are:
1. We want Widow Mine to be an awesome new unit for Terran that's difficult for other races to deal with.
2. If Protoss needs more options - mothership core gets some sort of soft detection instead of oracle.
3. If Zerg needs more detection early - remove the evo requirement for spore crawlers
All this is still under discussion so feedback is more than welcome. But please remember we do want the Widow Mine to be a powerful new threat that players have to prep against.
lmao, do the dev team actually play the beta?? The widdow mine is completally broken atm how does that make it awesome for anyone ???
and why is it only zerg need early detection?? to defend against mines in there mineal lines ? what kind of sense does that make..
EPT
Hopefully they'll visit the Oracle next week and radically change it and push it in the right direction.
HOTS streamers?
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