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Out of all the units proposed for Protoss pre-beta, the one that had the most hopes pinned on it as far as seeming to be a decent unit was the mothership core. One of the main problems the core was designed to solve was early base defense. The pre-beta core seemed to take a large step towards accomplishing this. The attack was long range, powerful, and cheap on energy. Now, I wasn't fully convinced at the time that the unit would actually be able to fulfill this crucial design goal. For one thing, I had doubts that a weapon which required energy to use could truly be effective (all the attacker would have to do is back off once purifier has been provoked, and wait for it to dissipate). For another thing, any unit that you can only build "one of" is always vulnerable to easy sniping. But the point is, I could at least see some potential pre-beta. It seemed like a step in the right direction.
Enter the beta, and what we actually got was a pile of garbage. The unit was nerfed in all respects, but I'm just going to focus on the base defense role here. They decided to decouple the unit from the Nexus, in order to "make it feel like an actual unit." Now, in and of itself, there was absolutely nothing wrong with that sentiment. The problem was the consequences Blizzard thought it must enforce in doing this. I saw a quote from David Kim before beta release where he said they had to be careful about the unit being able to float to an enemy base on a close spawn. At that point my spidey sense was already tingling. So what did they do? Nerf the thing to hell.
Range? Neutered. Dps? Neutered. And in exchange, yes it moves. AT A SNAIL'S PACE. IT IS SLOWER THAN AN OVERLORD. The question is, what did this movement buy us? The ability to defend multiple bases? It could already jump between Nexuses in its pre-beta form. In fact, the pre-beta teleport ability provided for far superior base defense than the current retardedly slow movement.
I'm straining my brain here. Did the movement buy us the option for an attack or rush? You are kidding, right? The ridiculously slow movement speed combined with the flaccid attack (which it must use energy for) ensures it can't ever attack an enemy base, and if it ever does a handful of marines or couple of queens will annihilate it.
What we seem to have gotten in exchange for the ridiculous overnerfs to this contraption is a warm, fuzzy feeling that we have an "actual unit that moves." And that's it.
The unit is a joke. It is now useless as base defense in almost any practical scenario you could imagine. Is this thing going to defend a 6 pool, or any other kind of rush? No, because they nerfed the ability to get it out in time. And even if you could get it out in time, it doesn't matter a single iota. After you provoke a purify, you can either run around it and attack where it isn't (it moves so slow that it can't catch you), back off and wait for purify to dissipate, or if you have marines or stalkers, just snipe it. I've already seen this play out 100 times on 100 different videos. Enemy attacks natural. "Oh look, the mothership is slowly starting to float into range. How cute!" Enemy moves up ramp into main. 45 seconds to a minute later, "Oh look, the mothership is slowly starting to float into range. How cute!" Enemy moves back down ramp into natural again. Or if the enemy was terran with a few marines, just snipe.
The thing has so many issues I don't even know where to start. First off, give the thing a natural attack not based on energy - and preferably with the original stats pre-beta. Secondly, make the thing cost supply, and allow multiple ones to be built. You can still keep the requirement that only one mothership can be on the field at a time, and if you have to nerf the other spells to make up for the fact that more can exist, do it.
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If Blizzard feels that they have to limit its attack by energy somehow, maybe they could just make it so that each attack costs (a very small amount of) energy (and turning each shot into an autocast-able spell)? That way you could use it to defend the moment it spawned, its defensive capability becomes stronger the longer you let it charge up, and you'd still have a tradeoff between Purify and Energize.
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On September 11 2012 10:14 archon256 wrote:
If Blizzard feels that they have to limit its attack by energy somehow, maybe they could just make it so that each attack costs (a very small amount of) energy (and turning each shot into an autocast-able spell)? That way you could use it to defend the moment it spawned, its defensive capability becomes stronger the longer you let it charge up, and you'd still have a tradeoff between Purify and Energize.
That...is actually an amazing idea. Maybe even make it akin to pre-nerfed snipe, a single target, high damage spell, thus adding to the protoss skill cap. As a toss, I would love it.
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Its attack is still ridiculously broken with close spawns. I think it should only be able to use its purify ability while attached to a nexus, but when you cast it the mothership core should "rush" to the nexus, rather than float like a pansy. This could also allow you to move it quickly between bases, but at an energetic cost.
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10387 Posts
If they're so concerned about MC rushes being too strong, but still want to make it a unit, then they should just restrict the movement to only within Pylon radii.
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On September 11 2012 10:29 lowercase wrote:
Its attack is still ridiculously broken with close spawns. I think it should only be able to use its purify ability while attached to a nexus, but when you cast it the mothership core should "rush" to the nexus, rather than float like a pansy. This could also allow you to move it quickly between bases, but at an energetic cost.
I made the point earlier that the movement ability bought us absolutely nothing in exchange except a nerf. Your suggestion exposes this even more, and is trying to get around it while working within the bounds of the nerf. In fact, your suggestion exposes the brokenness of the entire mechanic.
The obvious thing to do is rather simple. If a moving jokership core (which accomplishes nothing except says "yae! I'm moving!") means a nerfed jokership core, and having to jump through hoops like "rushing to the nexus vs. floating like a panzy," then simply tether the jokership core back to the nexus like it was pre-beta, and give us the pre-beta stats back. Unless someone can tell me what this movement buys us other than "we get a unit that feels like a real unit."
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It's difficult to make sense of your post when you don't make the slightest effort to sound objective or provide clear reasons why it is ineffective. Try providing some actual examples next time instead of just saying "I've seen this 100 times in 100 videos". It also worries me that you don't understand the significance of making the opponent "wait for purify to dissipate". Being able to stall the enemy's all-in or attack by 1-2 minutes (depending if you have 1 or 2 purifies) means you have ample time to make units to hold off an attack. Honestly it sounds more like you are simply upset that Blizzard decided to nerf the unit, the kind of thing I expect to hear on the battle.net forums. You also haven't justified any of the changes you are suggesting for the Core, why should it be buffed in the ways you are claiming? These are pretty drastic changes as well, having more than one mothership core at a time alone is a huge shift in dynamics from what we have now.
Also I don't know if you're in the Beta (I assume you aren't given you don't provide any feedback from personal experience), but I've had plenty of success defending my base with a Mothership Core when going for slightly greedier builds. It is definitely worth the investment for me, and I've seen pros similarly getting it consistently early game and using it to defend where necessary as well as making good use of the recall ability.
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I'm not aware of its current state, but why can't it just be Core, like it was in the Battle Report, then when you get Fleet Beacon, you can spawn it from the Nexus into your usual WoL Mothership?
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Strain your brain no longer - it's purpose is not supposed to be complete defense for multiple bases. So you still have to build cannons/units/walls.
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I still haven't seen anyone using recall effectively (if anyone has seen any replays please post links). The Mothership Core provides extremely early game access to a fantastic ability like recall. Toss can actually raid the enemy in the early game and still save the all-important Sentries, Immortals, DT's, etc. with Recall. To me that seems like a very powerful tool, yet no one (that I have seen) is using this mechanic. Until all the unit's abilities have been explored fully, we shouldn't assume it is garbage.
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Here's an idea; significantly buff the move speed for the duration of purify.
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Basically the mothership core has won me games because of timing attacks that hit the zerg and I just focus fire his hatchery and then recall out with minimal losses. This is at the master and GM level. I think it adds some cheesy depth to PvZ in that if we get to your hatchery, we'll kill it and escape now instead of engaging you in battle...
A cheesy tactic but it's made quite a few zergs have a bit of a rager...
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On September 11 2012 10:56 XenoX101 wrote:
It's difficult to make sense of your post when you don't make the slightest effort to sound objective or provide clear reasons why it is ineffective. Try providing some actual examples next time instead of just saying "I've seen this 100 times in 100 videos". It also worries me that you don't understand the significance of making the opponent "wait for purify to dissipate". Being able to stall the enemy's all-in or attack by 1-2 minutes (depending if you have 1 or 2 purifies) means you have ample time to make units to hold off an attack. Honestly it sounds more like you are simply upset that Blizzard decided to nerf the unit, the kind of thing I expect to hear on the battle.net forums. You also haven't justified any of the changes you are suggesting for the Core, why should it be buffed in the ways you are claiming? These are pretty drastic changes as well, having more than one mothership core at a time alone is a huge shift in dynamics from what we have now.
Also I don't know if you're in the Beta (I assume you aren't given you don't provide any feedback from personal experience), but I've had plenty of success defending my base with a Mothership Core when going for slightly greedier builds. It is definitely worth the investment for me, and I've seen pros similarly getting it consistently early game and using it to defend where necessary as well as making good use of the recall ability.
fail man i read your first sentence and it just smelled like a grammar nazi. stop wasting oxygen
User was temp banned for this post.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On September 11 2012 11:26 Frozne wrote:
Basically the mothership core has won me games because of timing attacks that hit the zerg and I just focus fire his hatchery and then recall out with minimal losses. This is at the master and GM level. I think it adds some cheesy depth to PvZ in that if we get to your hatchery, we'll kill it and escape now instead of engaging you in battle...
A cheesy tactic but it's made quite a few zergs have a bit of a rager...
Please god, I really hope we can get it to work better with cheesy raids! Although I love anything that makes Zergs crie
Anyway, what baffled me was that they made it into a unit. It was pretty cool in its original iteration, stuck to Nexi but more potent because of this lack of mobility. As I'd like to see it, it would have a few uses, but not be able to do more than one of them properly. It'd add a little extra depth if you mothership core efficiency became something that split good players from bad.
1. As a macro aid, energising for more chronoboost.
2. For defending greedier expands with its cannon and builds being planned around that.
3. For the recall ability and general raiding goodness.
All these should require pre-planning and good energy management to reap the rewards of. It could add a bit of genuine (i.e non-gimmicky) depth if it became some sort of auxillary macro aid, a la Queens. Injects and transfusion add a bit of decision making to the Zergs list of things to consider. An example 'do I transfuse this spine, or try to inject to get enough units to hold' that kind of thing
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On September 11 2012 11:51 ellsworth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 10:56 XenoX101 wrote:
It's difficult to make sense of your post when you don't make the slightest effort to sound objective or provide clear reasons why it is ineffective. Try providing some actual examples next time instead of just saying "I've seen this 100 times in 100 videos". It also worries me that you don't understand the significance of making the opponent "wait for purify to dissipate". Being able to stall the enemy's all-in or attack by 1-2 minutes (depending if you have 1 or 2 purifies) means you have ample time to make units to hold off an attack. Honestly it sounds more like you are simply upset that Blizzard decided to nerf the unit, the kind of thing I expect to hear on the battle.net forums. You also haven't justified any of the changes you are suggesting for the Core, why should it be buffed in the ways you are claiming? These are pretty drastic changes as well, having more than one mothership core at a time alone is a huge shift in dynamics from what we have now.
Also I don't know if you're in the Beta (I assume you aren't given you don't provide any feedback from personal experience), but I've had plenty of success defending my base with a Mothership Core when going for slightly greedier builds. It is definitely worth the investment for me, and I've seen pros similarly getting it consistently early game and using it to defend where necessary as well as making good use of the recall ability. fail man i read your first sentence and it just smelled like a grammar nazi. stop wasting oxygen
Not even close bud. He was (correctly) calling into question an OP that relies on hyperbole and sensationalism over facts. Lots of replies have been legitimate though.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On September 11 2012 11:51 ellsworth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 10:56 XenoX101 wrote:
It's difficult to make sense of your post when you don't make the slightest effort to sound objective or provide clear reasons why it is ineffective. Try providing some actual examples next time instead of just saying "I've seen this 100 times in 100 videos". It also worries me that you don't understand the significance of making the opponent "wait for purify to dissipate". Being able to stall the enemy's all-in or attack by 1-2 minutes (depending if you have 1 or 2 purifies) means you have ample time to make units to hold off an attack. Honestly it sounds more like you are simply upset that Blizzard decided to nerf the unit, the kind of thing I expect to hear on the battle.net forums. You also haven't justified any of the changes you are suggesting for the Core, why should it be buffed in the ways you are claiming? These are pretty drastic changes as well, having more than one mothership core at a time alone is a huge shift in dynamics from what we have now.
Also I don't know if you're in the Beta (I assume you aren't given you don't provide any feedback from personal experience), but I've had plenty of success defending my base with a Mothership Core when going for slightly greedier builds. It is definitely worth the investment for me, and I've seen pros similarly getting it consistently early game and using it to defend where necessary as well as making good use of the recall ability. fail man i read your first sentence and it just smelled like a grammar nazi. stop wasting oxygen
When did he critique the guy's grammar? He showed examples of the Core working in his hands as well to back up his points. Stop posting if you're going to be so obnoxious, no loss to the forum.
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I have been really loving the core. It is the one enjoyable addition to Toss. The attack ability seems well balanced to be a deterrent but not able to hold off armies on its own. Not to mention with energize upgrades are done in a blink of an eye now. I just hope they don't nerf energize.
Edit: I am in the Beta so this is from personal experience
As I'd like to see it, it would have a few uses, but not be able to do more than one of them properly. It'd add a little extra depth if you mothership core efficiency became something that split good players from bad.
I feel like this is exactly how it is right now. To use recall you have to decide to sacrifice potential energize so good players will only ever be able to recall when they are planning to do so. Energizing for extra chronos is so good that there is strong incentive to always use the energy on a nexus. However if a player recognizes a push is incoming then saving the energy for defense is the better choice. If the enemy pulls back to wait out the duration of your spell then this will have bought you valuable time for your(presumably) tech or econ advantage to kick in. My only complaint with the attack spell is that because of its high energy cost is is unlikely to be available if a drop or harassment occurs but maybe that's Blizzards intention.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On September 11 2012 12:19 Geos13 wrote:I have been really loving the core. It is the one enjoyable addition to Toss. The attack ability seems well balanced to be a deterrent but not able to hold off armies on its own. Not to mention with energize upgrades are done in a blink of an eye now. I just hope they don't nerf energize. Edit: I am in the Beta so this is from personal experience Show nested quote +As I'd like to see it, it would have a few uses, but not be able to do more than one of them properly. It'd add a little extra depth if you mothership core efficiency became something that split good players from bad. I feel like this is exactly how it is right now. To use recall you have to decide to sacrifice potential energize so good players will only ever be able to recall when they are planning to do so. Energizing for extra chronos is so good that there is strong incentive to always use the energy on a nexus. However if a player recognizes a push is incoming then saving the energy for defense is the better choice. If the enemy pulls back to wait out the duration of your spell then this will have bought you valuable time for your(presumably) tech or econ advantage to kick in. My only complaint with the attack spell is that because of its high energy cost is is unlikely to be available if a drop or harassment occurs but maybe that's Blizzards intention.
That's pretty cool to hear. I have watched a metric fuckton of HoTS streams and don't actually see that many people use the core in that way. It seems a lot of the Toss players are falling back on old styles in the games I'm watching but hopefully they'll get some more mileage out of it in future
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On September 11 2012 10:21 Amridell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 10:14 archon256 wrote:
If Blizzard feels that they have to limit its attack by energy somehow, maybe they could just make it so that each attack costs (a very small amount of) energy (and turning each shot into an autocast-able spell)? That way you could use it to defend the moment it spawned, its defensive capability becomes stronger the longer you let it charge up, and you'd still have a tradeoff between Purify and Energize.
That...is actually an amazing idea. Maybe even make it akin to pre-nerfed snipe, a single target, high damage spell, thus adding to the protoss skill cap. As a toss, I would love it.
That's actually a stupid idea. In that way, you cannot control when the core should fire and when they should not. Its energy will drain out by it constantly firing at enemy automatically. In the current form, you can control when the core should fire or not.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On September 11 2012 12:44 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 10:21 Amridell wrote:On September 11 2012 10:14 archon256 wrote:
If Blizzard feels that they have to limit its attack by energy somehow, maybe they could just make it so that each attack costs (a very small amount of) energy (and turning each shot into an autocast-able spell)? That way you could use it to defend the moment it spawned, its defensive capability becomes stronger the longer you let it charge up, and you'd still have a tradeoff between Purify and Energize.
That...is actually an amazing idea. Maybe even make it akin to pre-nerfed snipe, a single target, high damage spell, thus adding to the protoss skill cap. As a toss, I would love it. That's actually a stupid idea. In that way, you cannot control when the core should fire and when they should not. Its energy will drain out by it constantly firing at enemy automatically. In the current form, you can control when the core should fire or not.
You could turn off autocast and manually do it though, it's not a terrible idea in itself.
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EPT
