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Out of all the units proposed for Protoss pre-beta, the one that had the most hopes pinned on it as far as seeming to be a decent unit was the mothership core. One of the main problems the core was designed to solve was early base defense. The pre-beta core seemed to take a large step towards accomplishing this. The attack was long range, powerful, and cheap on energy. Now, I wasn't fully convinced at the time that the unit would actually be able to fulfill this crucial design goal. For one thing, I had doubts that a weapon which required energy to use could truly be effective (all the attacker would have to do is back off once purifier has been provoked, and wait for it to dissipate). For another thing, any unit that you can only build "one of" is always vulnerable to easy sniping. But the point is, I could at least see some potential pre-beta. It seemed like a step in the right direction.
Enter the beta, and what we actually got was a pile of garbage. The unit was nerfed in all respects, but I'm just going to focus on the base defense role here. They decided to decouple the unit from the Nexus, in order to "make it feel like an actual unit." Now, in and of itself, there was absolutely nothing wrong with that sentiment. The problem was the consequences Blizzard thought it must enforce in doing this. I saw a quote from David Kim before beta release where he said they had to be careful about the unit being able to float to an enemy base on a close spawn. At that point my spidey sense was already tingling. So what did they do? Nerf the thing to hell.
Range? Neutered. Dps? Neutered. And in exchange, yes it moves. AT A SNAIL'S PACE. IT IS SLOWER THAN AN OVERLORD. The question is, what did this movement buy us? The ability to defend multiple bases? It could already jump between Nexuses in its pre-beta form. In fact, the pre-beta teleport ability provided for far superior base defense than the current retardedly slow movement.
I'm straining my brain here. Did the movement buy us the option for an attack or rush? You are kidding, right? The ridiculously slow movement speed combined with the flaccid attack (which it must use energy for) ensures it can't ever attack an enemy base, and if it ever does a handful of marines or couple of queens will annihilate it.
What we seem to have gotten in exchange for the ridiculous overnerfs to this contraption is a warm, fuzzy feeling that we have an "actual unit that moves." And that's it.
The unit is a joke. It is now useless as base defense in almost any practical scenario you could imagine. Is this thing going to defend a 6 pool, or any other kind of rush? No, because they nerfed the ability to get it out in time. And even if you could get it out in time, it doesn't matter a single iota. After you provoke a purify, you can either run around it and attack where it isn't (it moves so slow that it can't catch you), back off and wait for purify to dissipate, or if you have marines or stalkers, just snipe it. I've already seen this play out 100 times on 100 different videos. Enemy attacks natural. "Oh look, the mothership is slowly starting to float into range. How cute!" Enemy moves up ramp into main. 45 seconds to a minute later, "Oh look, the mothership is slowly starting to float into range. How cute!" Enemy moves back down ramp into natural again. Or if the enemy was terran with a few marines, just snipe.
The thing has so many issues I don't even know where to start. First off, give the thing a natural attack not based on energy - and preferably with the original stats pre-beta. Secondly, make the thing cost supply, and allow multiple ones to be built. You can still keep the requirement that only one mothership can be on the field at a time, and if you have to nerf the other spells to make up for the fact that more can exist, do it.
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If Blizzard feels that they have to limit its attack by energy somehow, maybe they could just make it so that each attack costs (a very small amount of) energy (and turning each shot into an autocast-able spell)? That way you could use it to defend the moment it spawned, its defensive capability becomes stronger the longer you let it charge up, and you'd still have a tradeoff between Purify and Energize.
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On September 11 2012 10:14 archon256 wrote:
If Blizzard feels that they have to limit its attack by energy somehow, maybe they could just make it so that each attack costs (a very small amount of) energy (and turning each shot into an autocast-able spell)? That way you could use it to defend the moment it spawned, its defensive capability becomes stronger the longer you let it charge up, and you'd still have a tradeoff between Purify and Energize.
That...is actually an amazing idea. Maybe even make it akin to pre-nerfed snipe, a single target, high damage spell, thus adding to the protoss skill cap. As a toss, I would love it.
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Its attack is still ridiculously broken with close spawns. I think it should only be able to use its purify ability while attached to a nexus, but when you cast it the mothership core should "rush" to the nexus, rather than float like a pansy. This could also allow you to move it quickly between bases, but at an energetic cost.
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10387 Posts
If they're so concerned about MC rushes being too strong, but still want to make it a unit, then they should just restrict the movement to only within Pylon radii.
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On September 11 2012 10:29 lowercase wrote:
Its attack is still ridiculously broken with close spawns. I think it should only be able to use its purify ability while attached to a nexus, but when you cast it the mothership core should "rush" to the nexus, rather than float like a pansy. This could also allow you to move it quickly between bases, but at an energetic cost.
I made the point earlier that the movement ability bought us absolutely nothing in exchange except a nerf. Your suggestion exposes this even more, and is trying to get around it while working within the bounds of the nerf. In fact, your suggestion exposes the brokenness of the entire mechanic.
The obvious thing to do is rather simple. If a moving jokership core (which accomplishes nothing except says "yae! I'm moving!") means a nerfed jokership core, and having to jump through hoops like "rushing to the nexus vs. floating like a panzy," then simply tether the jokership core back to the nexus like it was pre-beta, and give us the pre-beta stats back. Unless someone can tell me what this movement buys us other than "we get a unit that feels like a real unit."
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It's difficult to make sense of your post when you don't make the slightest effort to sound objective or provide clear reasons why it is ineffective. Try providing some actual examples next time instead of just saying "I've seen this 100 times in 100 videos". It also worries me that you don't understand the significance of making the opponent "wait for purify to dissipate". Being able to stall the enemy's all-in or attack by 1-2 minutes (depending if you have 1 or 2 purifies) means you have ample time to make units to hold off an attack. Honestly it sounds more like you are simply upset that Blizzard decided to nerf the unit, the kind of thing I expect to hear on the battle.net forums. You also haven't justified any of the changes you are suggesting for the Core, why should it be buffed in the ways you are claiming? These are pretty drastic changes as well, having more than one mothership core at a time alone is a huge shift in dynamics from what we have now.
Also I don't know if you're in the Beta (I assume you aren't given you don't provide any feedback from personal experience), but I've had plenty of success defending my base with a Mothership Core when going for slightly greedier builds. It is definitely worth the investment for me, and I've seen pros similarly getting it consistently early game and using it to defend where necessary as well as making good use of the recall ability.
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I'm not aware of its current state, but why can't it just be Core, like it was in the Battle Report, then when you get Fleet Beacon, you can spawn it from the Nexus into your usual WoL Mothership?
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Strain your brain no longer - it's purpose is not supposed to be complete defense for multiple bases. So you still have to build cannons/units/walls.
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I still haven't seen anyone using recall effectively (if anyone has seen any replays please post links). The Mothership Core provides extremely early game access to a fantastic ability like recall. Toss can actually raid the enemy in the early game and still save the all-important Sentries, Immortals, DT's, etc. with Recall. To me that seems like a very powerful tool, yet no one (that I have seen) is using this mechanic. Until all the unit's abilities have been explored fully, we shouldn't assume it is garbage.
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Here's an idea; significantly buff the move speed for the duration of purify.
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Basically the mothership core has won me games because of timing attacks that hit the zerg and I just focus fire his hatchery and then recall out with minimal losses. This is at the master and GM level. I think it adds some cheesy depth to PvZ in that if we get to your hatchery, we'll kill it and escape now instead of engaging you in battle...
A cheesy tactic but it's made quite a few zergs have a bit of a rager...
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On September 11 2012 10:56 XenoX101 wrote:
It's difficult to make sense of your post when you don't make the slightest effort to sound objective or provide clear reasons why it is ineffective. Try providing some actual examples next time instead of just saying "I've seen this 100 times in 100 videos". It also worries me that you don't understand the significance of making the opponent "wait for purify to dissipate". Being able to stall the enemy's all-in or attack by 1-2 minutes (depending if you have 1 or 2 purifies) means you have ample time to make units to hold off an attack. Honestly it sounds more like you are simply upset that Blizzard decided to nerf the unit, the kind of thing I expect to hear on the battle.net forums. You also haven't justified any of the changes you are suggesting for the Core, why should it be buffed in the ways you are claiming? These are pretty drastic changes as well, having more than one mothership core at a time alone is a huge shift in dynamics from what we have now.
Also I don't know if you're in the Beta (I assume you aren't given you don't provide any feedback from personal experience), but I've had plenty of success defending my base with a Mothership Core when going for slightly greedier builds. It is definitely worth the investment for me, and I've seen pros similarly getting it consistently early game and using it to defend where necessary as well as making good use of the recall ability.
fail man i read your first sentence and it just smelled like a grammar nazi. stop wasting oxygen
User was temp banned for this post.
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Northern Ireland25381 Posts
On September 11 2012 11:26 Frozne wrote:
Basically the mothership core has won me games because of timing attacks that hit the zerg and I just focus fire his hatchery and then recall out with minimal losses. This is at the master and GM level. I think it adds some cheesy depth to PvZ in that if we get to your hatchery, we'll kill it and escape now instead of engaging you in battle...
A cheesy tactic but it's made quite a few zergs have a bit of a rager...
Please god, I really hope we can get it to work better with cheesy raids! Although I love anything that makes Zergs crie
Anyway, what baffled me was that they made it into a unit. It was pretty cool in its original iteration, stuck to Nexi but more potent because of this lack of mobility. As I'd like to see it, it would have a few uses, but not be able to do more than one of them properly. It'd add a little extra depth if you mothership core efficiency became something that split good players from bad.
1. As a macro aid, energising for more chronoboost.
2. For defending greedier expands with its cannon and builds being planned around that.
3. For the recall ability and general raiding goodness.
All these should require pre-planning and good energy management to reap the rewards of. It could add a bit of genuine (i.e non-gimmicky) depth if it became some sort of auxillary macro aid, a la Queens. Injects and transfusion add a bit of decision making to the Zergs list of things to consider. An example 'do I transfuse this spine, or try to inject to get enough units to hold' that kind of thing
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On September 11 2012 11:51 ellsworth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 10:56 XenoX101 wrote:
It's difficult to make sense of your post when you don't make the slightest effort to sound objective or provide clear reasons why it is ineffective. Try providing some actual examples next time instead of just saying "I've seen this 100 times in 100 videos". It also worries me that you don't understand the significance of making the opponent "wait for purify to dissipate". Being able to stall the enemy's all-in or attack by 1-2 minutes (depending if you have 1 or 2 purifies) means you have ample time to make units to hold off an attack. Honestly it sounds more like you are simply upset that Blizzard decided to nerf the unit, the kind of thing I expect to hear on the battle.net forums. You also haven't justified any of the changes you are suggesting for the Core, why should it be buffed in the ways you are claiming? These are pretty drastic changes as well, having more than one mothership core at a time alone is a huge shift in dynamics from what we have now.
Also I don't know if you're in the Beta (I assume you aren't given you don't provide any feedback from personal experience), but I've had plenty of success defending my base with a Mothership Core when going for slightly greedier builds. It is definitely worth the investment for me, and I've seen pros similarly getting it consistently early game and using it to defend where necessary as well as making good use of the recall ability. fail man i read your first sentence and it just smelled like a grammar nazi. stop wasting oxygen
Not even close bud. He was (correctly) calling into question an OP that relies on hyperbole and sensationalism over facts. Lots of replies have been legitimate though.
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Northern Ireland25381 Posts
On September 11 2012 11:51 ellsworth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 10:56 XenoX101 wrote:
It's difficult to make sense of your post when you don't make the slightest effort to sound objective or provide clear reasons why it is ineffective. Try providing some actual examples next time instead of just saying "I've seen this 100 times in 100 videos". It also worries me that you don't understand the significance of making the opponent "wait for purify to dissipate". Being able to stall the enemy's all-in or attack by 1-2 minutes (depending if you have 1 or 2 purifies) means you have ample time to make units to hold off an attack. Honestly it sounds more like you are simply upset that Blizzard decided to nerf the unit, the kind of thing I expect to hear on the battle.net forums. You also haven't justified any of the changes you are suggesting for the Core, why should it be buffed in the ways you are claiming? These are pretty drastic changes as well, having more than one mothership core at a time alone is a huge shift in dynamics from what we have now.
Also I don't know if you're in the Beta (I assume you aren't given you don't provide any feedback from personal experience), but I've had plenty of success defending my base with a Mothership Core when going for slightly greedier builds. It is definitely worth the investment for me, and I've seen pros similarly getting it consistently early game and using it to defend where necessary as well as making good use of the recall ability. fail man i read your first sentence and it just smelled like a grammar nazi. stop wasting oxygen
When did he critique the guy's grammar? He showed examples of the Core working in his hands as well to back up his points. Stop posting if you're going to be so obnoxious, no loss to the forum.
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I have been really loving the core. It is the one enjoyable addition to Toss. The attack ability seems well balanced to be a deterrent but not able to hold off armies on its own. Not to mention with energize upgrades are done in a blink of an eye now. I just hope they don't nerf energize.
Edit: I am in the Beta so this is from personal experience
As I'd like to see it, it would have a few uses, but not be able to do more than one of them properly. It'd add a little extra depth if you mothership core efficiency became something that split good players from bad.
I feel like this is exactly how it is right now. To use recall you have to decide to sacrifice potential energize so good players will only ever be able to recall when they are planning to do so. Energizing for extra chronos is so good that there is strong incentive to always use the energy on a nexus. However if a player recognizes a push is incoming then saving the energy for defense is the better choice. If the enemy pulls back to wait out the duration of your spell then this will have bought you valuable time for your(presumably) tech or econ advantage to kick in. My only complaint with the attack spell is that because of its high energy cost is is unlikely to be available if a drop or harassment occurs but maybe that's Blizzards intention.
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Northern Ireland25381 Posts
On September 11 2012 12:19 Geos13 wrote:I have been really loving the core. It is the one enjoyable addition to Toss. The attack ability seems well balanced to be a deterrent but not able to hold off armies on its own. Not to mention with energize upgrades are done in a blink of an eye now. I just hope they don't nerf energize. Edit: I am in the Beta so this is from personal experience Show nested quote +As I'd like to see it, it would have a few uses, but not be able to do more than one of them properly. It'd add a little extra depth if you mothership core efficiency became something that split good players from bad. I feel like this is exactly how it is right now. To use recall you have to decide to sacrifice potential energize so good players will only ever be able to recall when they are planning to do so. Energizing for extra chronos is so good that there is strong incentive to always use the energy on a nexus. However if a player recognizes a push is incoming then saving the energy for defense is the better choice. If the enemy pulls back to wait out the duration of your spell then this will have bought you valuable time for your(presumably) tech or econ advantage to kick in. My only complaint with the attack spell is that because of its high energy cost is is unlikely to be available if a drop or harassment occurs but maybe that's Blizzards intention.
That's pretty cool to hear. I have watched a metric fuckton of HoTS streams and don't actually see that many people use the core in that way. It seems a lot of the Toss players are falling back on old styles in the games I'm watching but hopefully they'll get some more mileage out of it in future
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On September 11 2012 10:21 Amridell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 10:14 archon256 wrote:
If Blizzard feels that they have to limit its attack by energy somehow, maybe they could just make it so that each attack costs (a very small amount of) energy (and turning each shot into an autocast-able spell)? That way you could use it to defend the moment it spawned, its defensive capability becomes stronger the longer you let it charge up, and you'd still have a tradeoff between Purify and Energize.
That...is actually an amazing idea. Maybe even make it akin to pre-nerfed snipe, a single target, high damage spell, thus adding to the protoss skill cap. As a toss, I would love it.
That's actually a stupid idea. In that way, you cannot control when the core should fire and when they should not. Its energy will drain out by it constantly firing at enemy automatically. In the current form, you can control when the core should fire or not.
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Northern Ireland25381 Posts
On September 11 2012 12:44 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 10:21 Amridell wrote:On September 11 2012 10:14 archon256 wrote:
If Blizzard feels that they have to limit its attack by energy somehow, maybe they could just make it so that each attack costs (a very small amount of) energy (and turning each shot into an autocast-able spell)? That way you could use it to defend the moment it spawned, its defensive capability becomes stronger the longer you let it charge up, and you'd still have a tradeoff between Purify and Energize.
That...is actually an amazing idea. Maybe even make it akin to pre-nerfed snipe, a single target, high damage spell, thus adding to the protoss skill cap. As a toss, I would love it. That's actually a stupid idea. In that way, you cannot control when the core should fire and when they should not. Its energy will drain out by it constantly firing at enemy automatically. In the current form, you can control when the core should fire or not.
You could turn off autocast and manually do it though, it's not a terrible idea in itself.
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On September 11 2012 10:56 XenoX101 wrote:
It's difficult to make sense of your post when you don't make the slightest effort to sound objective or provide clear reasons why it is ineffective.
If I care about toss, I see no rational reason not to be objective about a new unit that might be added to the race. Unless you imply that perhaps I'm a stealth terran or zerg who would like to sabotage a good toss unit. You don't have to agree with anything I've said, but I'd prefer to be given the benefit of the doubt on objectivity, as I don't see the point of unobjectivity.
Try providing some actual examples next time instead of just saying "I've seen this 100 times in 100 videos".
If describing something I've seen 100 times isn't an example, what is it?
I have never seen this thing used successfully to defend a toss base. Yes, I've seen people TRY to use it. And I've seen it utterly and epicly fail each time in the most embarassing way possible. I described how enemies just ignore it, move around it, snipe it, whatever. Perhaps you can give an example yourself? I'd like to see one.
It also worries me that you don't understand the significance of making the opponent "wait for purify to dissipate". Being able to stall the enemy's all-in or attack by 1-2 minutes (depending if you have 1 or 2 purifies) means you have ample time to make units to hold off an attack.
I recognized the theoretical utility of "waiting for it to dissipate." But does toss really need such another passive gimmick? They already have force fields, vortexes, etc. Do you really think that an ability that the opponent laughs at, and chooses to back off from so it can dissipate (the enemy's point isn't that he fears the ability, it is to make the protoss waste the ability while he laughs), is a good way to provide base defense? If it's so good, why doesn't all base defense work like this? And have you forgotten that the enemy can do his own reinforcement while waiting for it to dissipate?
In truth, I haven't seen an enemy back off from it in a single video. They just totally ignore it or go around it (if it's at the nat, they run to the main; if it's at the main, they run to the nat). Or they snipe it with 4 marines. But my point was, they also COULD simply back off for a moment. It is an option.
And no, the ability doens't last 1 or 2 minutes.
Honestly it sounds more like you are simply upset that Blizzard decided to nerf the unit, the kind of thing I expect to hear on the battle.net forums.
I don't care what you want to call it. Whether it amounts to complaining about an unjustified nerf that turns a unit with potential benefit into crap, or whether it amounts to something else, the end result is the same to me, and my statements stand the same. The unit seemeed to have potential pre-beta. The unit seems like utter garbage now, at least with respect to base defense.
You also haven't justified any of the changes you are suggesting for the Core, why should it be buffed in the ways you are claiming? These are pretty drastic changes as well, having more than one mothership core at a time alone is a huge shift in dynamics from what we have now.
Aren't the justifications obvious? Can't you figure them out for yourself? The thing seemed to have potential pre-beta. It doesn't seem to have potential now. So the obvious justification is to turn it back into something that seems to have potential again. The rationale for returning the attack back to what it was pre-beta is that that attack was more powerful, and actually seemed to do something in the way of meaninfgul base defense. The justification for giving it a natural attack that isn't based on energy seems self-evident to me - just look at any other unit in the game (marines, roaches, etc) and ask yourself whether they need to expend energy to perform a weak attack. And ask yourself whether you could just back off and wait for the attack to dissipate.
You could only consider the proposed changes "drastic" if you think the jokership core is something powerful, something with utility, something to be feared. I don't consider the proposed changes drastic at all. As far as base defense goes, it is an extremely weak floating cannon that I also have to pay gas for, which moves slower than an overlord, and which would occupy supply if you read my suggestion carefully. I don't see what's so drastic about allowing more than one of the things to be built. In fact, if you are an opponent, you should probably pray that the toss wastes his gas and supply building hordes of the things. What's he gonna do with them? Come attack you with them?
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the core in the battlereports had 13 range and did 45 damage i believe, so while i am not able to say if the current core is a joke or not, i can say that a flying and moving t1 unit should not have an attack with the same range and more damage vs unarmored than a siegetank, that was strictly and only possible because the core was attached to a nexus.
(which was way cooler in my opinion)
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On September 11 2012 16:46 Naphal wrote:
the core in the battlereports had 13 range and did 45 damage i believe, so while i am not able to say if the current core is a joke or not, i can say that a flying and moving t1 unit should not have an attack with the same range and more damage vs unarmored than a siegetank, that was strictly and only possible because the core was attached to a nexus.
I guess that's my point. Toss didn't gain anything by detaching it from the Nexus. They lost.
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On September 11 2012 11:16 YoungNV wrote:
I still haven't seen anyone using recall effectively (if anyone has seen any replays please post links). The Mothership Core provides extremely early game access to a fantastic ability like recall. Toss can actually raid the enemy in the early game and still save the all-important Sentries, Immortals, DT's, etc. with Recall. To me that seems like a very powerful tool, yet no one (that I have seen) is using this mechanic. Until all the unit's abilities have been explored fully, we shouldn't assume it is garbage.
Yeah, I remember watching Whitera the other day against Z and he was Forge Fast Expanding on a map with an in base natural. It seemed made to Gate/Gas expand as you only had 1 small ramp to defend and the traditional weakness of Gate expands to Speedling counters was nullified. I have not watched any streams recently (been too busy) but I do hope to see Recall being used in this way against Z. You could move out with a couple of Sentries and muscle up on Zealot/Stalker and then Recall out after doing some real damage. Meanwhile, at home, you use the saved gas to tech up. Or expand etc.
Edit/ I do agree though that the pre Beta MCore looked and felt a lot better. I don't know why they changed it.
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On September 11 2012 18:18 aZealot wrote:
I have not watched any streams recently (been too busy) but I do hope to see Recall being used in this way against Z. You could move out with a couple of Sentries and muscle up on Zealot/Stalker and then Recall out after doing some real damage. Meanwhile, at home, you use the saved gas to tech up. Or expand etc.
Initially, I did see a lot of tosses trying to use the recall ability in games, just like I saw them trying to use the oracle and tempest. Eventually, tosses stopped using these strats as mainstays.
I'm not 100% sure why recall play dissipated. My guess is, it was deemed to be better to simply use the energy for the jokership core to charge up the nexus, and not much else. Perhaps sending zealots in on foot as expendable suicide units, or warping them in with prisms, has been deemed the superior choice in most circumstances.
As to the oracle, once you've been shafted a few times spending that kind of money only to have it shot down by 4 stimmed marines instantly upon arriving in the enemy base, while *maybe* if you are lucky being able to land one entomb... well, let's try to put it more kindly. If you are gonna be attempting to use that thing very often, you'd better have a big butthole.
I think a similar thing could be said about tempests. Initially the tosses were trying to use this unit quite a bit. Then it stopped, and they all settled down to pretty much identical gameplay to WoL. In one particular game, I remember a toss being ahead 5 bases to his oppent's 3, or something like that. He dominated all game, and massed quite a few tempests. In the end, he lost because he was massing said tempests. Again, I think it's one of those units where you'd better have a pretty big butthole if you're gonna be using it.
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The unit is actually called Mothership Core.
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I love how Blizzard designs units, decides they are overpowered and instead of re-designing they just nerf it.
Warhound - nerf Widow mine - nerf Mothership core - nerf Tempest - nerf incoming.
They need to just release shit and see how the game develops and tweak/redesign from there, not just nerf things into oblivion because thats how they thing balancing works. When have we ever seen Blizzard improve a unit? Not often.
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On September 11 2012 10:14 archon256 wrote:
If Blizzard feels that they have to limit its attack by energy somehow, maybe they could just make it so that each attack costs (a very small amount of) energy (and turning each shot into an autocast-able spell)? That way you could use it to defend the moment it spawned, its defensive capability becomes stronger the longer you let it charge up, and you'd still have a tradeoff between Purify and Energize. Nice idea.
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I would also like to say that I don't 100% hate every aspect of what has been proposed by Blizzard (just most aspects, heh). My opinion even differs in some ways from what the overwhelming majority opinion is. For instance, the warhound model. It seems to be universally despised by most. I actually don't mind the model design. Yeah, it's clunky and derpy looking, and looks like something out of 80s mechwarrior or whatever, but to me that sort of "fits" terran (I do however agree that the gameplay design and role of the thing needs to be seriously revisited, or it needs to be scrapped altogether).
As for tempests, I don't hate them in theory, and I don't think that they are a lost cause. Sure, they may be uninspiring on the creativity side of things (both in model and gameplay aspects), but I think they are salvageable. Quite simply, I think they need more dps, and possibly a cost or supply reduction, and that's all. In other words, a simple tweak to numbers can save the thing, I think.
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The reason it isn't fixed to a Nexus anymore is because it would limit mapmakers a lot. Then you need to have your expansion wall close to the nexus, which isn't always the case. I like it much better like this actually.
Other than that I think you're using it wrong OP. It was never supposed to just automatically defend everything. You still need a wall and acual units. But it does make it harder for your opponent to engage early game, and has other really cool abilities that good players will eventually abuse.
I think it might turn out that the MC is the most powerful of all the new units.
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"Protoss should not use any of the new units" (c)
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Pros seem to agree with you. I watched a lot of WhiteRa and TT1 and against Z they are back to FFE. WR makes some attempts at gateway expand, on huge maps against very late pools but he do not build a MC until quite late anyway and defends using zealot and stalkers. He uses alittle bit of recall, but not really to make a push he would not make in WoL.
The DPS on the thing is not that good and mostly he will 70% of the time be misplaced to defend, and well we all know he takes sweet time to reposition itself.
Honestly, all tosses I see playing HotS are back to WoL tactics and units, just learning to counter new units/tactics from the other races. Kinda sad, but hey, at least now that zerg is massing swarm hosts instead of brood lords we can make a shitton of colossi like in PvP (/sarcasm). Oh and new maps.
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On September 11 2012 20:21 Rimak wrote:
"Protoss should not use any of the new units" (c)
Well the new units were designed to require more skills from Protoss players. But they forgot to nerf the easy strategies too. So I think it's natural that people will go back to stuff like gateway timings every game if the game stays like that.
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Or it's just that new units don't really contribute to P gameplay and some of them are even making it weaker (except for maybe a recall).
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On September 11 2012 20:28 MilesTeg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 20:21 Rimak wrote:
"Protoss should not use any of the new units" (c) Well the new units were designed to require more skills from Protoss players. But they forgot to nerf the easy strategies too. So I think it's natural that people will go back to stuff like gateway timings every game if the game stays like that.
You're not a Protoss player, you don't know a damn about Protoss design, strategies, and tactics so please stop embarassing yourself
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 11 2012 20:18 MilesTeg wrote:
The reason it isn't fixed to a Nexus anymore is because it would limit mapmakers a lot. Then you need to have your expansion wall close to the nexus, which isn't always the case. I like it much better like this actually.
I'm not sure that one of my units should be given a severe nerf, making one of it's design goals moot, just because someone thinks it would limit mapmakers. If it would limit mapmakers, then come up with another solution to the problem besides the default "nerf the hell out of the unit." Jeez, I could come up with something better than that option in 5 seconds just off the top of my head. In fact, let me do it right now. Duhh... derr... umm... how about making the mothership core able to move at a reasonable speed inside pylon power?
See, was that so hard? And before anyone says "too complex, blah blah," it's already done for queens on creep. I'm not suggesting this is the solution to the unit's problems, btw, just trying to illustrate how easy it would be to use one's brain to come up with a better solution.
Other than that I think you're using it wrong OP. It was never supposed to just automatically defend everything. You still need a wall and acual units.
I'm not sure any reasonable person ever thought you were supposed to build one of these things and have it automatically defend your base against anything, forever. But I think it's reasonable to expect the thing to be more powerful than a weaker floating photon cannon that can't even contribute to defense because it can be bypassed.
But it does make it harder for your opponent to engage early game....
Personally, I've seen zero evidence of this. I can't really see it being able to do anything except sit over the front wall and deter a few lings from attacking. In which the case, a photon cannon would do the job cheaper and better because it has a natural attack, and is cheaper.
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On September 11 2012 10:14 archon256 wrote:
If Blizzard feels that they have to limit its attack by energy somehow, maybe they could just make it so that each attack costs (a very small amount of) energy (and turning each shot into an autocast-able spell)? That way you could use it to defend the moment it spawned, its defensive capability becomes stronger the longer you let it charge up, and you'd still have a tradeoff between Purify and Energize.
Wait, that's a good idea. Thus, chances are we will never see it in the game. Another good idea might be to simply get rid of close spawn positions, although we might have to wait for LOTV for Blizzard to realizes that (if we're lucky, ofc).
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You seem to make a couple strange assumptions - like the assumption that the range/damage nerf had anything to do with it getting a movement speed (did you see the thing in the custom map? It could hold off a 2-rax by itself!). The mothership core was nerfed because its pre-beta version was ridiculous and made it borderline impossible to harass a protoss or make any kind of meaningful early game aggression against the protoss. I really wouldn't be surprised if the pre-beta version could have been used to go 3 Nexii before tech path like zergs do in WoL.
The mothership core has problems - but that its attack is too weak... that's not one of them (edit: and by this I mean look at its attack - 25 damage per attack from a flying unit - don't know its attack speed, but it looks pretty fast). I'd love to see its attack decoupled from its energy, as such a slow moving unit surely deserves to be feared if you do run across it, but then do we have problems with proxy Nexus?
Allowing multiple mothership cores... that idea has some merit to it - but it seems like they're (rightfully) afraid of what too much energize or too many Mass Recalls could do to the game. I don't think you've thought things out enough (or if you have, it isn't reflected in what you've written so far) for any of your ideas to really be implemented.
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How about this idea: It can attach to the nexus again gaining additional range or no cost to the purify. Or perhaps, expanding on the some thoughts in this thread, it can move faster not inside pylon power (that can maybe be abused to make a offensive recall, which I don't care for really just don't want to ruin the idea because of it) but around the Nexus? A large area around the Nexus to be precise, like the entirety of a base. So it can be similar to the queen this way and serve as a decent base defender.
It would still leave Purify as a lackluster spell, but worth experimenting with.
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I don't understand the QQ.
Protoss has a get out of free card for their aggression which is essentially bad design in itself. That's extremely powerful.
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On September 11 2012 22:58 Treehead wrote:
You seem to make a couple strange assumptions - like the assumption that the range/damage nerf had anything to do with it getting a movement speed
Why is that a strange assumption? All we can do is make assumptions, since none of us can actually call up Browder or Kim and ask them personally. However, it is as reasonable an assumption as any, I think, given what David Kim said in an interview. He said they were looking into decoupling the thing from the nexus so as to make it feel like a "real unit," but they had to be careful about rushes, close spawns, blah blah. To me, that sounds like the reason for the nerf. Of course I could be wrong, but so could anyone else.
I'd love to see its attack decoupled from its energy, as such a slow moving unit surely deserves to be feared if you do run across it, but then do we have problems with proxy Nexus?
Don't know why we'd have a problem. Nobody thinks that proxy planetary fortresses are a problem.
Allowing multiple mothership cores... that idea has some merit to it - but it seems like they're (rightfully) afraid of what too much energize or too many Mass Recalls could do to the game. I don't think you've thought things out enough (or if you have, it isn't reflected in what you've written so far) for any of your ideas to really be implemented.
I think people (esp. blizzard) worry too much about things. Toss had the ability to make mass arbiters in SC1. The things had mass recall and stasis field (a better ability than vortex, imo). They were cheaper than the mothership. Nobody thought they were OP.
On that note, I've never understood why blizzard thought the mothership was such an awe-inspiring weapon that toss could only be allowed one (personally, I'd rather have an arbiter). And I don't understand why they think the core is such an awe-inspiring thing, only allowing one (it is a mediocre unit at best). I think it's all just a carryover or relic from some pre-alpha version of SC2 when the mothership possibly was something to inspire awe. It's sort of dumb to restrict units today based on what they were in some long-ago past.
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Maybe let it have a weak attack that costs nothing and a stronger attack that needs to be activated?!
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Very good topic. I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. In face I could not have said it better myself! The Mothership Core is a sad unit. So sad! It got massively nerfed before it even had a chance to exist. When I see a Mothership Core using its "Purify" ability on a group of Roaches, I cry a litlte bit inside. It seems to have the DPS of a Probe. A big-ass, slow-ass, flying goddamn Probe.
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On September 11 2012 22:00 ihatezerg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2012 20:18 MilesTeg wrote:
The reason it isn't fixed to a Nexus anymore is because it would limit mapmakers a lot. Then you need to have your expansion wall close to the nexus, which isn't always the case. I like it much better like this actually.
I'm not sure that one of my units should be given a severe nerf, making one of it's design goals moot, just because someone thinks it would limit mapmakers. If it would limit mapmakers, then come up with another solution to the problem besides the default "nerf the hell out of the unit." Jeez, I could come up with something better than that option in 5 seconds just off the top of my head. In fact, let me do it right now. Duhh... derr... umm... how about making the mothership core able to move at a reasonable speed inside pylon power? See, was that so hard? And before anyone says "too complex, blah blah," it's already done for queens on creep. I'm not suggesting this is the solution to the unit's problems, btw, just trying to illustrate how easy it would be to use one's brain to come up with a better solution. Show nested quote +Other than that I think you're using it wrong OP. It was never supposed to just automatically defend everything. You still need a wall and acual units. I'm not sure any reasonable person ever thought you were supposed to build one of these things and have it automatically defend your base against anything, forever. But I think it's reasonable to expect the thing to be more powerful than a weaker floating photon cannon that can't even contribute to defense because it can be bypassed. Personally, I've seen zero evidence of this. I can't really see it being able to do anything except sit over the front wall and deter a few lings from attacking. In which the case, a photon cannon would do the job cheaper and better because it has a natural attack, and is cheaper.
Those are good points. I like your idea, but I guess it's a little too close to the Queen's mechanic. I don't think Blizzard wants Protoss to creep in using pylons like Zerg.
And most importantly I'm not convinced there is a problem as of now. People can't just pass by unless you really have zero defense, in which case you should lose. So the mobility isn't really the issue, that thing is supposed to just sit by your expansion for most of its existence.
It seems you're really just whining because it got nerfed. I see no problem with its mobility, maybe it should be stronger (I don't think so) or cheaper (maybe) but don't forget it's not supposed to be a bigger cannon, it's the kind of unit that will take a lot of time to master.
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It seems you're really just whining because it got nerfed.
Look, just because someone gives feedback on the beta, and just because the feedback isn't fanboyism or sucking the d's of blizzard and telling them how great their ideas are, doesn't mean it's "whining." So anything said that isn't full of sunshine and sugar and spice must constitute "whining?"
Why would I whine? Despite my name, I switched to zerg a long time ago. I haven't played toss in ages. I recently told a friend I'd be happy to kick tosses in the head more all through HotS, just as I've been doing throughout a fair bit of WoL. It's no skin off my nose either way. I just thought I'd throw my honest opinions out there, just like I did with WoL beta (all of which proved true, btw). I'd like to see a toss that doesn't suck, but if nobody wants that, I'm happy to continue playing other races.
You think I care about nerfs. I don't care about nerfs, in and of themselves. Warhoud got nerfed and I didn't say a word, because it looked like it was deserved. Swarm host got nerfed (a unit from the race I play), and I didn't say a word, because it looked like it was deserved. It just seems to me that mothership core is a p.o.s., that's all. But if you like it, fine with me.
I see no problem with its mobility, maybe it should be stronger (I don't think so) or cheaper (maybe) but don't forget it's not supposed to be a bigger cannon, it's the kind of unit that will take a lot of time to master.
Well I am 100% willing stand to be corrected if anyone wants to correct me, but I thought a chief problem with toss was early game fragility and inability to move out, forcing a turtling and massing deathball mindset. I thought the new units were supposed to address this issue (as well as others). If that's not what the mothership core is supposed to be addressing, then what is it's purpose, because I'd like to know?
Anyway, you are wrong about it being a unit that will take time to master. There is no mastering of the unit, no micro involved at all. It's slow as a slug in mollasses, so there's no kiting or positioning involved. You simply push a button to purify, and if your opponent is dumb enough to stand under it and be purified, I guess the thing ended up doing something after all.
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I say, make the MS core faster, like two or three times faster so you could actually use it to recall your units into enemy base. Also, combine the old teleport-to-nexus ability with purify, so it could only be used defensively to protect your bases. Problem solved. You now have a defensive mothership that can energize your nexii or be used as some sort of crippled arbiter.
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It´s okay to suggest something but in this early stage of beta...? I see no point. Only because you got hyped up before the game was released? Deal with it...
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On September 12 2012 00:38 ihatezerg wrote:
Look, just because someone gives feedback on the beta, and just because the feedback isn't fanboyism or sucking the d's of blizzard and telling them how great their ideas are, doesn't mean it's "whining." So anything said that isn't full of sunshine and sugar and spice must constitute "whining?"
Why would I whine? Despite my name, I switched to zerg a long time ago. I haven't played toss in ages. I recently told a friend I'd be happy to kick tosses in the head more all through HotS, just as I've been doing throughout a fair bit of WoL. It's no skin off my nose either way. I just thought I'd throw my honest opinions out there, just like I did with WoL beta (all of which proved true, btw). I'd like to see a toss that doesn't suck, but if nobody wants that, I'm happy to continue playing other races.
You think I care about nerfs. I don't care about nerfs, in and of themselves. Warhoud got nerfed and I didn't say a word, because it looked like it was deserved. Swarm host got nerfed (a unit from the race I play), and I didn't say a word, because it looked like it was deserved. It just seems to me that mothership core is a p.o.s., that's all. But if you like it, fine with me.
That's just what it sounded to me. It doesn't matter much anyway 
On September 12 2012 00:38 ihatezerg wrote:
Well I am 100% willing stand to be corrected if anyone wants to correct me, but I thought a chief problem with toss was early game fragility and inability to move out, forcing a turtling and massing deathball mindset. I thought the new units were supposed to address this issue (as well as others). If that's not what the mothership core is supposed to be addressing, then what is it's purpose, because I'd like to know?
Yes that's the purpose, and I do believe it will help. But it won't fix all the problems with Protoss by itself, I'll give you that.
On September 12 2012 00:38 ihatezerg wrote:
Anyway, you are wrong about it being a unit that will take time to master. There is no mastering of the unit, no micro involved at all. It's slow as a slug in mollasses, so there's no kiting or positioning involved. You simply push a button to purify, and if your opponent is dumb enough to stand under it and be purified, I guess the thing ended up doing something after all.
It will take time because it is going to change a lot of timings. What you can get away with early game, how aggressive you can be... These changes tend the be the ones that happen the slowest.
Out of all the new units, this is the one that has the potential to change build orders, change whole matchups the most. It's not as intuitive as just incorporating Swarm Hosts or Vipers for Zergs in an already established build. Good players will figure out those things, and I wouldn't be surprised if in just a few weeks people call the MC abusive (like the player :p)!
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On September 12 2012 01:06 plgElwood wrote:
It´s okay to suggest something but in this early stage of beta...? I see no point. Only because you got hyped up before the game was released? Deal with it...
So let me get this straight. Beta *ISN'T* the time to provide feedback on the units? Okay, gotcha.
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Does it provide early to mid game defender's advantage? Yes.
Does it provide mid/late game utility with recall? Yes.
Will it hold off a 6 gate or 200/200 roach max on its own while you tech to double stargate tempest on two base? No, it won't. It's not designed to be an invincible defense. Get over it and support it with other units.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
I really like the design of the momma core, I think it could use a tweak, right now it feels a bit too weak, but in terms of actual design I think it hits the mark. As said above, it ticks all the boxes, for me the question is just whether it does it to a strong enough degree to be influential.
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Agree with the opening post that the Core has a lot of problems, but not with the ideas to fix it. Personally I see no improvement in decoupling it from the Nexus and making it a "real" unit, but rather a step backwards: The original Core was perfectly fine and very unique. It was the biggest improvement for Protoss, compared to the lackluster other new units.
Think about the following points: Drop defense of outlying expansions, fend of small attacks with Teleport and Purifier, bigger attacks with Recall to the attacked Nexus. In case of overwhelming forces recall Probes away from the Nexus (can also be done with the new Core).
Another implication of the old Core were that you can take bases on the other end of the map and actually defend them pretty well without starting to warp in tons of shit there and for another that you can defend pesky Mutalisk harass a lot easier.
Basically my point is that the unit was very unique and had tons of potential with its Teleport ability, which got shut down mostly due to the change into a slow ass flyer without Teleport.
The solution is to just revert the change and make it attached to the Nexus like pre-beta.
Accidentally this fixes the early rush problem and gives us a much better looking effect instead of this strange rotating ball.
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Really, now. Mothership core is 'toss unit that deserves least complaints. I would rather they make it able to warp between nexi than move slowly, but I'll console myself with warping shenanigans.
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I really liked the idea of pre-beta MSC that could teleport between Nexuses. It is weird how they made it slower than an overlord and removed the ability to teleport.
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From what I've read, the devs said it didn't feel like a unit because it couldn't move. So they gave it a move speed, and re-balanced it accordingly.
I would also prefer a core teleporting from nexus to nexus. I'm not sure the ability to move brought anything special.
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Yeah, the MsC is weak and has design problems. I wrote this on the bnet forums:
As I see it, the mothership core has two big problems that make it less fun than it should be. First, in the early game, it's an expensive designated defensive unit that requires 75 energy to defend, and if it doesn't have energy, a lot of times you just lose. Second, after the early game, it tends to just sit there and look pointless. Recall is cool, but there aren't a lot of good ways to get behind enemy lines in the early and mid-game, so recall winds up functioning as an insurance policy in case you screw up. It could be so much more fun with a good complementary ability.
Beginning with the MsC's energy-based attack, purify made sense when it was a nexus spell, but now that the MsC is an independent unit, the spell seems silly and against the design goals of the unit. In early game, the MsC is supposed to be sort of like a queen, a unit you build to defend your base that also gives you something extra. The queen doesn't have to wait around gathering energy to defend, so why should the MsC?
This is especially problematic in PvP where I've seen players lose to rushes because they invested in the MsC. There's essentially no rush distance in PvP once WG tech is out, and the resources spent on the MsC can easily cause a loss if it's out but does not yet have energy for its attack spell. So the current design allows for a situation where a player loses to a rush because he invested in a base defense unit. This needs to be fixed--there's no reason for the MsC to need to spend energy to defend.
Removing purify gives allows you to replace it with a spell that spices up recall in the early and mid-game. Recall is really cool once you have a bunch of blink stalkers and an observer, but there should be more creative, earlier options available to get behind enemy lines if your opponent is caught napping.
Replace purify with a spell that temporarily cloaks a small area of effect that's big enough to target maybe 4 or 5 units max. The units will lose their cloaking after 2 minutes or as soon as they perform an action other than moving. What this does is helps you get units into good spots, but as soon as they want to attack or build, they lose cloak. It increases mobility without increasing combat value. Adding this temporary cloaking spell provides Protoss with mobility options and multi-pronged harassment tactics that will make the game much more fun to play and spectate.
To start, you could sneak a small raiding party behind enemy lines, and recall them out as the defender reacts. Maybe you use that small raiding force to pull his troops out of position while your primary attack advances toward his third base. But these simpler applications would be only the beginning. Think how cool it would be to launch a diversionary attack at Zerg's third base while you sneak a temporarily cloaked probe into the main base to start a pylon. If Zerg's not watching the minimap, he'll soon have a pylon in his main.
Then there are tons of cute little tricks you could do with the spell--cloaking a unit to scout past a bunker, cloaking a probe to block a watchtower while your army sneaks by, cloaking a zealot as it stands in a choke blocking a zergling run-by, etc.
The great thing about this spell that it would be tactically interesting and reward creative play, but it would have almost no direct combat value, and it would be 100% blockable simply by paying attention and having good map awareness. It provides Protoss lots of cool options, but the spell can't directly do damage.
Lastly, it makes recall much cooler. Right now, MsC recall functions more like WC3's Town Portal than SC:BW's recall. The difference between Town Portal and Recall is offensive mobility. With Town Portal, you slam your whole army forward, and TP out if you find you're in a bad spot. Recall, on the other hand, is supposed to encourage multi-pronged attacks small groups of units hitting fast and getting out. By adding this temporary cloaking spell, you allow more creative multi-pronged harassment options, and you make recall much cooler.
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I agree with some of your(OP) points, and I definitely think that the Mothership Core needs some rethinking, but I think you look too far away from the other possibilities that the unit creates. Also you replied to XenoX101 by saying that stalling an opponents early aggression is not a good way to defend it, to me that seems like the only way to defend it, I mean you don't see any other ultra-aggresive rushes getting held by not stalling them long enough to combat them or defend them otherwise.
Also as I mentioned, the Mothership Core makes room for several synergies like I saw one guy trapping a lot of zerglings in his base with an "energized" sentry and with purify he was able to clean all of them up almost without losses, without any of those things(Energize, Purify or the Sentry) that Zergling run-by attempt could have been fatal since the Protoss player was greedily teching to Starport, without much defense.*
The essential part of the Mothership Core moving, is that you can defend parts of your base that would not necessarily be defendable if it was constricted to the Nexus, but yet it is (near) impossible to use it offensively due to the slow movement speed. I think the thing with the Mothership Core is it needs other units to maximize its potential. Yes 4 Marines, stimming, might be able to snipe it quickly (and that might be wrong) but the can not snipe it if theres a wall of Zealots or 3 force fields smack dab in the face of the marines.
Also the the great uses of Energize and Recall I think might in some regard balances out the less great uses of Purify.
Since both Energize and Recall might be useful to have in some tight situations. (*- A good example of the defensive use of Energize)
For example, you might be able to some Roach pressure with putting up a few cannons and chronoboosting out a few sentries, but then for the rest of the game those cannons gets more and more useless the farther into the game you get.
You can probably defend the same Roach aggression with the Mothership Core and You might even have energy enough to energize your nexus so you can Chronoboost out some more units.
But the real difference is in that the Mothership core is not useless the rest of the game.
With all that said I think there might be some flaws with the design of the Motheship Core in that you need too much tech to get it out and I question the gas cost, but I think the unit can be(come) a balanced and fun unit to use and watch with some simple tweaking of numbers and such.
TL;DR:+ Show Spoiler + You lazy fucker read the whole thing...
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Just wanted to mention a few things the Mothership Core can do which might make it worth 100/100, if not 3 supply - first 100 energy (generated over 180 seconds) can generate 9 Chrono Boosts or more (depending on how many you get while the Nexus' energy is filling). This gives 9 Chrono Boosts - i.e. constant Chrono on one building.
If you use this on a Robo/Stargate - it functions like 100/50 in Robo production (half the cost of building another robo - since it's half again as much production). If you use it on a Stargate, it's 75/75 in stargate production. And if you have 2 Nexii and a MsC, you can keep constant Chrono Boost on two forges - who knows how valuable this could be? I'd say that 100/100/3 is worth being able to swap between filling any of these roles on the fly - and that's just for using CBs.
There's also: instant storms for a templar or two, more FFs for a sentry - whatever the Oracle ends up being... and then there's Recall, and Purify (admittedly, meh).
The Mothership Core is about the only unit Protoss has so far that I like, but I do like the unit.
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Have you ever seen a protoss push into your third, snipe your queen and a few drones, as well as an overlord, then approach with your much larger army that will surely defeat it?...
And then have it disappear?
Mothership core good unit.
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EPT
