The Jokership Core - Page 3

On September 11 2012 22:58 Treehead wrote:
You seem to make a couple strange assumptions - like the assumption that the range/damage nerf had anything to do with it getting a movement speed

I'd love to see its attack decoupled from its energy, as such a slow moving unit surely deserves to be feared if you do run across it, but then do we have problems with proxy Nexus?

Allowing multiple mothership cores... that idea has some merit to it - but it seems like they're (rightfully) afraid of what too much energize or too many Mass Recalls could do to the game. I don't think you've thought things out enough (or if you have, it isn't reflected in what you've written so far) for any of your ideas to really be implemented.

On September 11 2012 22:00 ihatezerg wrote:


I'm not sure that one of my units should be given a severe nerf, making one of it's design goals moot, just because someone thinks it would limit mapmakers. If it would limit mapmakers, then come up with another solution to the problem besides the default "nerf the hell out of the unit." Jeez, I could come up with something better than that option in 5 seconds just off the top of my head. In fact, let me do it right now. Duhh... derr... umm... how about making the mothership core able to move at a reasonable speed inside pylon power?

See, was that so hard? And before anyone says "too complex, blah blah," it's already done for queens on creep. I'm not suggesting this is the solution to the unit's problems, btw, just trying to illustrate how easy it would be to use one's brain to come up with a better solution.



I'm not sure any reasonable person ever thought you were supposed to build one of these things and have it automatically defend your base against anything, forever. But I think it's reasonable to expect the thing to be more powerful than a weaker floating photon cannon that can't even contribute to defense because it can be bypassed.



Personally, I've seen zero evidence of this. I can't really see it being able to do anything except sit over the front wall and deter a few lings from attacking. In which the case, a photon cannon would do the job cheaper and better because it has a natural attack, and is cheaper.

It seems you're really just whining because it got nerfed.

I see no problem with its mobility, maybe it should be stronger (I don't think so) or cheaper (maybe) but don't forget it's not supposed to be a bigger cannon, it's the kind of unit that will take a lot of time to master.

On September 12 2012 00:38 ihatezerg wrote:
Look, just because someone gives feedback on the beta, and just because the feedback isn't fanboyism or sucking the d's of blizzard and telling them how great their ideas are, doesn't mean it's "whining." So anything said that isn't full of sunshine and sugar and spice must constitute "whining?"

Why would I whine? Despite my name, I switched to zerg a long time ago. I haven't played toss in ages. I recently told a friend I'd be happy to kick tosses in the head more all through HotS, just as I've been doing throughout a fair bit of WoL. It's no skin off my nose either way. I just thought I'd throw my honest opinions out there, just like I did with WoL beta (all of which proved true, btw). I'd like to see a toss that doesn't suck, but if nobody wants that, I'm happy to continue playing other races.

You think I care about nerfs. I don't care about nerfs, in and of themselves. Warhoud got nerfed and I didn't say a word, because it looked like it was deserved. Swarm host got nerfed (a unit from the race I play), and I didn't say a word, because it looked like it was deserved. It just seems to me that mothership core is a p.o.s., that's all. But if you like it, fine with me.

On September 12 2012 00:38 ihatezerg wrote:
Well I am 100% willing stand to be corrected if anyone wants to correct me, but I thought a chief problem with toss was early game fragility and inability to move out, forcing a turtling and massing deathball mindset. I thought the new units were supposed to address this issue (as well as others). If that's not what the mothership core is supposed to be addressing, then what is it's purpose, because I'd like to know?

On September 12 2012 00:38 ihatezerg wrote:
Anyway, you are wrong about it being a unit that will take time to master. There is no mastering of the unit, no micro involved at all. It's slow as a slug in mollasses, so there's no kiting or positioning involved. You simply push a button to purify, and if your opponent is dumb enough to stand under it and be purified, I guess the thing ended up doing something after all.

On September 12 2012 01:06 plgElwood wrote:
It´s okay to suggest something but in this early stage of beta...? I see no point. Only because you got hyped up before the game was released? Deal with it...

As I see it, the mothership core has two big problems that make it less fun than it should be. First, in the early game, it's an expensive designated defensive unit that requires 75 energy to defend, and if it doesn't have energy, a lot of times you just lose. Second, after the early game, it tends to just sit there and look pointless. Recall is cool, but there aren't a lot of good ways to get behind enemy lines in the early and mid-game, so recall winds up functioning as an insurance policy in case you screw up. It could be so much more fun with a good complementary ability.

Beginning with the MsC's energy-based attack, purify made sense when it was a nexus spell, but now that the MsC is an independent unit, the spell seems silly and against the design goals of the unit. In early game, the MsC is supposed to be sort of like a queen, a unit you build to defend your base that also gives you something extra. The queen doesn't have to wait around gathering energy to defend, so why should the MsC?

This is especially problematic in PvP where I've seen players lose to rushes because they invested in the MsC. There's essentially no rush distance in PvP once WG tech is out, and the resources spent on the MsC can easily cause a loss if it's out but does not yet have energy for its attack spell. So the current design allows for a situation where a player loses to a rush because he invested in a base defense unit. This needs to be fixed--there's no reason for the MsC to need to spend energy to defend.

Removing purify gives allows you to replace it with a spell that spices up recall in the early and mid-game. Recall is really cool once you have a bunch of blink stalkers and an observer, but there should be more creative, earlier options available to get behind enemy lines if your opponent is caught napping.

Replace purify with a spell that temporarily cloaks a small area of effect that's big enough to target maybe 4 or 5 units max. The units will lose their cloaking after 2 minutes or as soon as they perform an action other than moving. What this does is helps you get units into good spots, but as soon as they want to attack or build, they lose cloak. It increases mobility without increasing combat value. Adding this temporary cloaking spell provides Protoss with mobility options and multi-pronged harassment tactics that will make the game much more fun to play and spectate.

To start, you could sneak a small raiding party behind enemy lines, and recall them out as the defender reacts. Maybe you use that small raiding force to pull his troops out of position while your primary attack advances toward his third base. But these simpler applications would be only the beginning. Think how cool it would be to launch a diversionary attack at Zerg's third base while you sneak a temporarily cloaked probe into the main base to start a pylon. If Zerg's not watching the minimap, he'll soon have a pylon in his main.

Then there are tons of cute little tricks you could do with the spell--cloaking a unit to scout past a bunker, cloaking a probe to block a watchtower while your army sneaks by, cloaking a zealot as it stands in a choke blocking a zergling run-by, etc.
The great thing about this spell that it would be tactically interesting and reward creative play, but it would have almost no direct combat value, and it would be 100% blockable simply by paying attention and having good map awareness. It provides Protoss lots of cool options, but the spell can't directly do damage.

Lastly, it makes recall much cooler. Right now, MsC recall functions more like WC3's Town Portal than SC:BW's recall. The difference between Town Portal and Recall is offensive mobility. With Town Portal, you slam your whole army forward, and TP out if you find you're in a bad spot. Recall, on the other hand, is supposed to encourage multi-pronged attacks small groups of units hitting fast and getting out. By adding this temporary cloaking spell, you allow more creative multi-pronged harassment options, and you make recall much cooler.