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On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote:
Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored?
If you are using a mine defensively, you are not going to burrow it in front of the enemy.
TvT is a jawdropping MU at this point. I WISH the other MUs were as good as this.
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About the only thing I don't like about the widow mine's new design is that it removes the choice of whether or not it fires/detonates. I can't speak for balance issues, but it seems to be built more as a burrow-and-forget unit, as opposed to one you can choose to unleash at any given time. I suppose that that does make it more different from a burrowed baneling, though.
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How dare they take out Grubby's Phase Shield...
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It seems as though the Widow Mine is meant as a way to prevent attacks on distant bases approaching choke positions such as 'ling runbys, hidden pylons in fourth/fifth bases (DTs especially) and MMM strike forces. I just worry that this does more to hurt Zerg and Protoss versions of this tactic because their detection is not fire and forget like scans, thus requiring more resources to ultimately perform these actions. But, only time will tell if this is a short-term or a long-term change.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 06 2012 08:47 unteqair wrote:
It's a cool change to the mine, but is there any need to build the AA turrets?
There is, one uber shot every 40 seconds probably isn't good enough AA. Lead with one muta and you're golden for harass. If there's a travel time (there should be), leading with one unit will cause all the mines in range to launch at it.
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I still rather wish they had kept phase shift, even though you can block mining with entomb and then drain their minerals now. I can kinda understand taking away widow mine autocast turn off for no more focus fire since it's kinda like hold lurkers or allied mines.
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Oracle changes are laughable. Why is an ability that was deemed useless for zerg suddenly worthwhile for protoss? Give the oracle something cool. Not a tickle beam that costs energy.
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On October 06 2012 08:57 SnipedSoul wrote:
Widow mine is cool. Void siphon only looks useful for base trades.
You floating command centers? I'm gonna siphon you to death and get my production up and going xD
On October 06 2012 08:59 Vindicare605 wrote:
So the widow mine is basically a burrowed siege tank now with a shorter range and more damage?
Not liking it at all. Why are they overlapping roles with the siege tank with this thing now. It's like they are trying everything in their power to address the problems with the siege tank without actually buffing the siege tank. It's so puzzling.
Basically, the marauder is a marine with more HP, but with less dps..
I don't get why we do these kind of comparisons, it's pointless.
Why they are overlapping roles? Yes, they control space, but they do that completely different ways. With the siege tanks, you can siege opponents from afar and force them to either engage you/re-position their armies, because they will get smashed if they don't. The widow mine doesn't do that. I think blizzard wants them to kinda fulfill the role of a spider mine, but in a different way, because they seem to be reluctant to re-introduce copy-pasted old units.
I agree that the siege tank could get some love though XD
I thought they would make the window mine like a minefield layer  But, watching Pride's stream now, it seems interesting !
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I agree with other posters that the widow mine now seems pretty much like a portable missle turret. It also seems like it will be a lot more useful against zerg than it would be against toss. zerglings and IT's will be massacred just by the splash damage, whereas a group of zealots can run by and still be effective. My other concern is, what will be the counter to this other than sacrificing a unit to gain a window of time to run by and/or kill it.
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On October 06 2012 09:05 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote:
Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored? If you are using a mine defensively, you are not going to burrow it in front of the enemy. TvT is a jawdropping MU at this point. I WISH the other MUs were as good as this.
TvT good? If you dont go for Marine/Tank its almost impossible to win.THIS call you GOOD?I wish pure BIO and MECH could beat this,but for now BIO its pretty difficult when turret rings are made,preventing drops,and mech with those funsuicidehellions just suck.So we got every TvT minimum 30 mins looking for a hole in your enemys siege line or catch him moving.Come on,really?This is good?
Protoss can go Colossi or HT or both of them+Archons.Ton of Splash late game.Only their Air doesn work,but maybe and Blizzard tries to make it good with Carrier back,Oracle and ofc Tempest.If they succes maybe in future Protoss can go pure StarGate and win every MU.
Zerg is the best.Ling+Infestor into Ultras kills all.Ling+bane+Muta kills T.Ling+Infestor+BL kill Protoss.Roach+Ling kill Protoss.Roach+Hydra+Corruptor good vs P.Now they got Ultra Burrow Charge making Ultras even better.Swarm Host is their new siege unit,and guess what?Viper just make tanks useless.Zerg got EVERYTHING.They can choose how to play in every MU.Other raices dont.
I want to play T and be able to choose Strategies before MU and just dont die because tank suck vs P
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United States7483 Posts
On October 06 2012 09:03 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 08:56 Qikz wrote:On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote:
Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored? How are siege lines a problem? Are we even playing the same game? David Kim and DB said in actual metagame there is no way mech can break siege lines.Same amount of tanks and Marines just crush hellions/Battlehellions do to stim and higher DPS.Widow mine does not solve this issue.Just win the guy to got more marines/medivacs/tanks or caught enemy unsieged.Pure BIO with marauders still cant break sige lines because of tanks so hard counter Marauders and if enemy got double marines than you,just kill your army before touch siege tanks.Warhound was tough and got extra damage to armored.The perfect counter.Now its gone.Mines with 5 range and recharging suck vs stimmed marines+scan. Dont you think its the same game?
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
In all seriousness, I read what you wrote, and I have no idea at all what you are trying to say, it's completely illegible. This isn't right, this isn't even wrong. Could you try to edit that so that it's actually legible? Because honestly, I really did want to read what you had to say.
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United States7483 Posts
On October 06 2012 09:20 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:05 Crawdad wrote:On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote:
Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored? If you are using a mine defensively, you are not going to burrow it in front of the enemy. TvT is a jawdropping MU at this point. I WISH the other MUs were as good as this. TvT good? If you dont go for Marine/Tank its almost impossible to win.THIS call you GOOD?I wish pure BIO and MECH could beat this,but for now BIO its pretty difficult when turret rings are made,preventing drops,and mech with those funsuicidehellions just suck.So we got every TvT minimum 30 mins looking for a hole in your enemys siege line or catch him moving.Come on,really?This is good? Protoss can go Colossi or HT or both of them+Archons.Ton of Splash late game.Only their Air doesn work,but maybe and Blizzard tries to make it good with Carrier back,Oracle and ofc Tempest.If they succes maybe in future Protoss can go pure StarGate and win every MU. Zerg is the best.Ling+Infestor into Ultras kills all.Ling+bane+Muta kills T.Ling+Infestor+BL kill Protoss.Roach+Ling kill Protoss.Roach+Hydra+Corruptor good vs P.Now they got Ultra Burrow Charge making Ultras even better.Swarm Host is their new siege unit,and guess what?Viper just make tanks useless.Zerg got EVERYTHING.They can choose how to play in every MU.Other raices dont. I want to play T and be able to choose Strategies before MU and just dont die because tank suck vs P
Bio tank is the direct response to bio. You play bio mech when you were playing bio but your opponent also went bio, because mixing tanks in makes your army much more powerful in an engagement. At the high level, we see mech play vs. bio all the time and it's amazing to watch. Bio vs. Bio invariably turns into bio/mech vs. bio/mech because pure bio vs pure bio is stupid. We do see occasionally mech vs. mech, but it's rare. But pure bio vs. pure mech games do show up at the high level.
TvT is without a doubt the most interesting mirror matchup in terms of strategy, tactics, and play. It is the most forgiving and least likely to end with a single easy mistake, and features the most variance in strategies and tactics, along with the most interesting positioning play. TvT right now is AWESOME.
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I just tested all the changes in game, first impressions:
1) protoss
- new mothership core is better then previous one, but those changes doesn't fix anything at all. Nerfing from 100hp/100shield to 60/130 made it even better for early game harras because you can pull out and regen more shield. New purify is nice, but it doesnt change anything about 2 zaelot + msc push.
- new oracle ability is COMPLETE and useless crap. Yes, it does give you +3 minerals each time it ticks, but it's meanginless. The dmg the skill does it just lol, and the range is short.Terrible, terrible ability.
2) terran
- new widow mine is really really strong, at the current state I think they should reinstate armory requirement back into the game. I dont think the re-arming will stick into retail though, unless they adjust few other things (cost, tech path).
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You've got to be kidding me...
I can't use my custom hotkey's anymore...
I had build probe on A.
And attack on A. Now the Nexus has attack ability so i can't use it for both.
For f*** sake. How stupid is that.
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The Siphon spell makes Entomb look good.
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Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
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On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote:
Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game .
Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position.
It forces the use of detection.
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the mine is okay, I like the mothership core change but the void siphon, dear god oO...
Who's ever going to use that ability? lol. The oracle is really vulnerable, costs a lot of gas and it's a pathetic 3 minerals/second lol.
On October 06 2012 09:29 Defrag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:28 s3rp wrote:
Can someone tell me why this new Widow mine should now be good its the same unit just with 40 sec CD ( which is ages ) instead of dieing and they reduced its splash damage back to 40. How is that an improvement ? It's still useless in later stages of the game . Because you can no longer sacrifice an unit to destroy it and move onto the position. It forces the use of detection.
Was never the case. You could turn off autofire ....
On October 06 2012 09:24 Cracy wrote:
You've got to be kidding me...
I can't use my custom hotkey's anymore...
I had build probe on A.
And attack on A. Now the Nexus has attack ability so i can't use it for both.
For f*** sake. How stupid is that.
Sup bw protoss had pylon and probe on 'P'.
On October 06 2012 09:25 Cloak wrote:
The Siphon spell makes Entomb look good.
nice one haha
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On October 06 2012 09:21 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2012 09:03 Dvriel wrote:On October 06 2012 08:56 Qikz wrote:On October 06 2012 08:51 Dvriel wrote:
Watching some streams. TvT now. MEch vs Usuall Bio+tank+raven.Widow mines totally useless with their 5 Range.Only serve to prevent cloak banshee and drops.As well as players use them to harras enemy bases,but if there is a defensive Mine,yours just die before burrow.Siege lines still a problem.Hellions dont get to them to kill it.Maybe the Widow mines need to get range 14 and do big damage only to armored? How are siege lines a problem? Are we even playing the same game? David Kim and DB said in actual metagame there is no way mech can break siege lines.Same amount of tanks and Marines just crush hellions/Battlehellions do to stim and higher DPS.Widow mine does not solve this issue.Just win the guy to got more marines/medivacs/tanks or caught enemy unsieged.Pure BIO with marauders still cant break sige lines because of tanks so hard counter Marauders and if enemy got double marines than you,just kill your army before touch siege tanks.Warhound was tough and got extra damage to armored.The perfect counter.Now its gone.Mines with 5 range and recharging suck vs stimmed marines+scan. Dont you think its the same game? Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? In all seriousness, I read what you wrote, and I have no idea at all what you are trying to say, it's completely illegible. This isn't right, this isn't even wrong. Could you try to edit that so that it's actually legible? Because honestly, I really did want to read what you had to say.
I am trying to say that removing Warhounds and changing Widow Mine to its actual state its not what Blizzard was trying to do. Mech need a Marauder from Factory to be able to break siege lines OR Widow mine with 14 range to counter mass marine+siege tanks. As you said players are forced to go for siege tanks to get advantege in terms of DPS,but it forces them to stop making marauders and we reach again the Marine+Tank.
I dont find Bio vs Bio stupid. Are baneling wars stupid? PvP 4gate stupid? What i find stupid is 14 tanks and 70 marines not moving because in front are 12 tanks and 90 marines waiting.So we got 50 mins long game scanning,stimming and unsieging till Death because of Boring...
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So in PvP, you find a proxy pylon in your base and you let it live while you can just use oracles to drain money? Just keep units around the pylon to prevent warp ins and you can drain, stop to let pylon shields recharge, drain, repeat. Or is that not how this would work?
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EPT
