|
Russian Federation4295 Posts
It decloaks, but it's just an animation.
|
Best news out of Blizzard in the past two years.
|
QQ - "Dear Blizzard, Terrans win Games"
"Awwwwww, here u go my friend, take this Carrier-Tissue and i will promise the bad bad Warhound will never frighten you again"
|
On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now...
It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT.
Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely.
|
On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely.
Well let's not jump too ahead of ourselves assuming Terran didn't try to go mech. For a few months after Jinro won a TvP in the GSL several Terrans attempted to go mech in that matchup. No one was able to create consistantly strong mech builds or compositions so nearly everyone went back to bio except for Goody. Even Jinro couldn't produce the same results with mech. And it is true that after the thor (re)nerf they stopped appearing in the matchup. They were starting to be used but development of Thor-centric play got neutered so people stopped attempting it.
|
On September 16 2012 04:49 Bahamuth wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 01:59 teamhozac wrote:
They need to quit dumbing down this game, the fact that they changed the oracle ability to help "lower skilled players" is ridiculous. They need to get rid of auto mine at beginning of game, showing scan range, etc. Things like that are killing this game as an esport Please shut up. They're not changing the oracle ability just to help lower skilled players. The fact that you name automine as an issue is a complete joke. Please tell me more about how pro matches will be worse because workers automine.
Really? They are lowering the skill cieling buddy, how is that ever a good thing?
|
On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely.
Wow this post lol... youre using mass marine strat from ONE PLAYER as an example that terran was too strong and terran never adapted? most ridiculous thing ive seen in this forum...
4 gate beats just about any terran who doesnt scout and isnt prepared for it, just like 1/1/1 beats most protoss who dont scout/arent prepared... seriously what on earth are you whining about? Gateway units are terrible? This post lol
|
On September 16 2012 07:57 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely. Wow this post lol... youre using mass marine strat from ONE PLAYER as an example that terran was too strong and terran never adapted? most ridiculous thing ive seen in this forum... 4 gate beats just about any terran who doesnt scout and isnt prepared for it, just like 1/1/1 beats most protoss who dont scout/arent prepared... seriously what on earth are you whining about? Gateway units are terrible? This post lol
Are you really comparing a 4gate to a 1/1/1? A 4 gate is and was toothless compard to a 1/1/1 which until the map sizes got larger was unstopable even if you knew exactly what was coming.
Christ. That IEM article was on the money.
|
I'd like to give you my feedback...If I can play haha
No more WarhoundWar in every match-up though, I'm glad
|
On September 16 2012 07:43 Arolis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely. Well let's not jump too ahead of ourselves assuming Terran didn't try to go mech. For a few months after Jinro won a TvP in the GSL several Terrans attempted to go mech in that matchup. No one was able to create consistantly strong mech builds or compositions so nearly everyone went back to bio except for Goody. Even Jinro couldn't produce the same results with mech. And it is true that after the thor (re)nerf they stopped appearing in the matchup. They were starting to be used but development of Thor-centric play got neutered so people stopped attempting it.
I'm not blaming anybody, I'm just saying the nature of bio and Terran's other tech paths just made it less prevalent to do anything outside of bio. Thors got nerfed because they hard-countered their counter, Immortals. Thors are still plenty viable.
On September 16 2012 07:57 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely. Wow this post lol... youre using mass marine strat from ONE PLAYER as an example that terran was too strong and terran never adapted? most ridiculous thing ive seen in this forum... 4 gate beats just about any terran who doesnt scout and isnt prepared for it, just like 1/1/1 beats most protoss who dont scout/arent prepared... seriously what on earth are you whining about? Gateway units are terrible? This post lol
I'm not basing the argument on one player, I'm just attack his argument using MKP as an example. My original argument is that it took competitive Terran a bit of time to consider Vikings and Ghosts. These are not untrue statements. MMM was anything and everything for a lot of players. 4 Gate beats nonscouting Terran, but that's such a trivial thing to resolve.
It's really undeniable that Gateway units don't hold up by themselves next to the Zerg/Terran basic units. You can't argue this. It's like arguing Zerg doesn't have Larva Inject or Terran doesn't have Mules. It's just a design aspect of the game. Protoss get their relative power from synergy with higher tech options; it's always been this way.
|
On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely.
MKP, one of the best micro players in the world, was able to win by massing his trademark unit the marine? Outrageous!
|
Verry nice changes Blizzard, maybe ther's hope for HotS after all. One thing though... Im so confused about David Kims answer on the entomb change:
"Oracle Entomb changes: Duration reduced from 45 to 25 Mineral Shield health increased from 75 to 100
We were facing two issues with this ability: First – lower skilled players who didn’t react quickly would take too large an economic hit. Second – higher level players who reacted almost instantly would take too little damage from the ability. This is just a first pass at attempting to solve these two issues."
I really dont understand... we all play on different level, of course a noob have trouble to handle harrass... I mean, either way the workers still alive with entomb, it's still light harrassment, nothing like reapers, BFH, banshees, banlings or DTs in the mineral line... and most of thouse units can be used in army also... The Oracle and its abilities still feels verry one-dimensional.
|
On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely.
1) mkp demonstrated the high skillceiling terran bio has, that protoss by the way entirely lacks (how i laugh about "awesome blinkmicro") his match vs kyrix was the first impressive display of micro in sc2.
2) the immortal range was buffed which ended the dominance of the 1 1 1.
3) the voidray was only used for a cheap allin, warping zealots directly into the terran mainbase, where the terran would need a lot of micro while these little buggers would a-move the shit out the terran production and economy.
4) you can feedback ALL techunits terran has, the siegetank gets countered by every protoss unit in the game except the sentry, psystorm and colossi destroy unsplit bio in mere seconds, but ghosts and bio are potent glasscannons so with good reason the only real choice terran has.
5) most casters are protoss by the way, if you listen too much to artosis you get more biased than idra.
so feel free to continue living in your denialdreamworld, if blizzard has an ounce of honesty and applies the same standards for terran and protoss, the colossus will be gone next week, and you will need to micro your zealots and archons.
edit: +
On September 16 2012 08:34 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:43 Arolis wrote:On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely. Well let's not jump too ahead of ourselves assuming Terran didn't try to go mech. For a few months after Jinro won a TvP in the GSL several Terrans attempted to go mech in that matchup. No one was able to create consistantly strong mech builds or compositions so nearly everyone went back to bio except for Goody. Even Jinro couldn't produce the same results with mech. And it is true that after the thor (re)nerf they stopped appearing in the matchup. They were starting to be used but development of Thor-centric play got neutered so people stopped attempting it. I'm not blaming anybody, I'm just saying the nature of bio and Terran's other tech paths just made it less prevalent to do anything outside of bio. Thors got nerfed because they hard-countered their counter, Immortals. Thors are still plenty viable. Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:57 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely. Wow this post lol... youre using mass marine strat from ONE PLAYER as an example that terran was too strong and terran never adapted? most ridiculous thing ive seen in this forum... 4 gate beats just about any terran who doesnt scout and isnt prepared for it, just like 1/1/1 beats most protoss who dont scout/arent prepared... seriously what on earth are you whining about? Gateway units are terrible? This post lol I'm not basing the argument on one player, I'm just attack his argument using MKP as an example. My original argument is that it took competitive Terran a bit of time to consider Vikings and Ghosts. These are not untrue statements. MMM was anything and everything for a lot of players. 4 Gate beats nonscouting Terran, but that's such a trivial thing to resolve. It's really undeniable that Gateway units don't hold up by themselves next to the Zerg/Terran basic units. You can't argue this. It's like arguing Zerg doesn't have Larva Inject or Terran doesn't have Mules. It's just a design aspect of the game. Protoss get their relative power from synergy with higher tech options; it's always been this way.
thors viable in tvp? i do not think so, and every terran to play a televised tvp the last year agrees, the fact that mvp himself said mech does not work vs protoss should end any further discussion. (or do you have a problem with mvp too? jeez these "best players of the world" and their biased opinions)
warpgate and stim were nerfed at the same time, to help overcome t1 rushes, and while talking about weak and cost inefficient gateway units, you somehow missed the sentry, because good forcefields kind of negate anything you just said about terran and zerg t1, they make protoss aggression insanely powerful (no repair on bunkers, immortal allin vs zerg)
and deny all aggression before medivacs or a massive roach attack (or mutas dunno, i am not very well informed about pvz)
|
So glad they brought the most iconic unit back into the game! I would have sorely missed you carrier! <3
|
On September 16 2012 08:36 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely. 1) mkp demonstrated the high skillceiling terran bio has, that protoss by the way entirely lacks (how i laugh about "awesome blinkmicro") his match vs kyrix was the first impressive display of micro in sc2. 2) the immortal range was buffed which ended the dominance of the 1 1 1. 3) the voidray was only used for a cheap allin, warping zealots directly into the terran mainbase, where the terran would need a lot of micro while these little buggers would a-move the shit out the terran production and economy. 4) you can feedback ALL techunits terran has, the siegetank gets countered by every protoss unit in the game except the sentry, psystorm and colossi destroy unsplit bio in mere seconds, but ghosts and bio are potent glasscannons so with good reason the only real choice terran has. 5) most casters are protoss by the way, if you listen too much to artosis you get more biased than idra. so feel free to continue living in your denialdreamworld, if blizzard has an ounce of honesty and applies the same standards for terran and protoss, the colossus will be gone next week, and you will need to micro your zealots and archons.
1) Irrelevant to the argument, I agree that Marine is the best unit in the game.
2) Immortal range against Marines/SCVs isn't really all that useful, the Tanks weren't reachable until they died. What killed 1-1-1 was the Protoss FE.
3) They could've modulated it better, and now that uphill warp-ins are gone, it won't be nearly as strong. It was just as cheap as any of the Stim timings Terran did, which required a lot more work on the Protoss side to survive.
4) A really good argument for using Ghost, but there was a lot of inertia with using them.
5) Artosis switched to Protoss eventually, he was originally Zerg in SC2.
Give Zealots back their BW speed so they can surround your stutterstepping ass, and we'll see who can micro and who can't.
|
On September 16 2012 07:53 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 04:49 Bahamuth wrote:On September 16 2012 01:59 teamhozac wrote:
They need to quit dumbing down this game, the fact that they changed the oracle ability to help "lower skilled players" is ridiculous. They need to get rid of auto mine at beginning of game, showing scan range, etc. Things like that are killing this game as an esport Please shut up. They're not changing the oracle ability just to help lower skilled players. The fact that you name automine as an issue is a complete joke. Please tell me more about how pro matches will be worse because workers automine. Really? They are lowering the skill cieling buddy, how is that ever a good thing?
Please don't use words you don't understand, and especially those you can't spell.
"Lowering the skill ceiling" is not equivalent to "making the game easier for new players". None of the things you listed will reduce the complexity of the game, because pros will ignore automine, will always kill entomb before its timer, and will already be reasonably aware of scan range.
If you're going to use the analogy, these kinds of changes raise the skill floor, rather than lowering the ceiling. That's a different thing.
|
On September 16 2012 08:23 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:57 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely. Wow this post lol... youre using mass marine strat from ONE PLAYER as an example that terran was too strong and terran never adapted? most ridiculous thing ive seen in this forum... 4 gate beats just about any terran who doesnt scout and isnt prepared for it, just like 1/1/1 beats most protoss who dont scout/arent prepared... seriously what on earth are you whining about? Gateway units are terrible? This post lol Are you really comparing a 4gate to a 1/1/1? A 4 gate is and was toothless compard to a 1/1/1 which until the map sizes got larger was unstopable even if you knew exactly what was coming. Christ. That IEM article was on the money.
People just hadnt adapted yet, sure it was unstoppable for a while, but arent there always strats that are for a period of time until they are figured out? Aside from figuring out how to deal with it, protoss also got a buff and larger maps to boot, which took the teeth right out of the 1/1/1... 4 gates are still very hard to stop, esp on a fast expand
|
On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game.
Yes, we all remember his gasless 3/3 combat shield and stim marine/medivac/tank build against Kyrix in GSL2.
</sarcasm>
|
On September 16 2012 08:47 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:23 Sabu113 wrote:On September 16 2012 07:57 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely. Wow this post lol... youre using mass marine strat from ONE PLAYER as an example that terran was too strong and terran never adapted? most ridiculous thing ive seen in this forum... 4 gate beats just about any terran who doesnt scout and isnt prepared for it, just like 1/1/1 beats most protoss who dont scout/arent prepared... seriously what on earth are you whining about? Gateway units are terrible? This post lol Are you really comparing a 4gate to a 1/1/1? A 4 gate is and was toothless compard to a 1/1/1 which until the map sizes got larger was unstopable even if you knew exactly what was coming. Christ. That IEM article was on the money. People just hadnt adapted yet, sure it was unstoppable for a while, but arent there always strats that are for a period of time until they are figured out? Aside from figuring out how to deal with it, protoss also got a buff and larger maps to boot, which took the teeth right out of the 1/1/1... 4 gates are still very hard to stop, esp on a fast expand
You really have no idea what a 1/1/1 is like to face, do you? 4gate doesn't come close.
|
On September 16 2012 08:47 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:53 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 04:49 Bahamuth wrote:On September 16 2012 01:59 teamhozac wrote:
They need to quit dumbing down this game, the fact that they changed the oracle ability to help "lower skilled players" is ridiculous. They need to get rid of auto mine at beginning of game, showing scan range, etc. Things like that are killing this game as an esport Please shut up. They're not changing the oracle ability just to help lower skilled players. The fact that you name automine as an issue is a complete joke. Please tell me more about how pro matches will be worse because workers automine. Really? They are lowering the skill cieling buddy, how is that ever a good thing? Please don't use words you don't understand, and especially those you can't spell. "Lowering the skill ceiling" is not equivalent to "making the game easier for new players". None of the things you listed will reduce the complexity of the game, because pros will ignore automine, will always kill entomb before its timer, and will already be reasonably aware of scan range. If you're going to use the analogy, these kinds of changes raise the skill floor, rather than lowering the ceiling. That's a different thing.
And why exactly does the skill floor need to be raised? probably for people like you... got it
Are you not seeing how that lowers the skill ceiling? SCV/drone/probe splitting to close mineral patches is a SKILL, HotS takes that away, knowing what a player saw with a scan is a SKILL, HotS takes that away by doing it for you... like I said, lowering the skill ceiling
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
