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On September 16 2012 09:10 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 08:47 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 08:23 Sabu113 wrote:On September 16 2012 07:57 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely. Wow this post lol... youre using mass marine strat from ONE PLAYER as an example that terran was too strong and terran never adapted? most ridiculous thing ive seen in this forum... 4 gate beats just about any terran who doesnt scout and isnt prepared for it, just like 1/1/1 beats most protoss who dont scout/arent prepared... seriously what on earth are you whining about? Gateway units are terrible? This post lol Are you really comparing a 4gate to a 1/1/1? A 4 gate is and was toothless compard to a 1/1/1 which until the map sizes got larger was unstopable even if you knew exactly what was coming. Christ. That IEM article was on the money. People just hadnt adapted yet, sure it was unstoppable for a while, but arent there always strats that are for a period of time until they are figured out? Aside from figuring out how to deal with it, protoss also got a buff and larger maps to boot, which took the teeth right out of the 1/1/1... 4 gates are still very hard to stop, esp on a fast expand You really have no idea what a 1/1/1 is like to face, do you? 4gate doesn't come close.
Yeah it must be tough to ACTUALLY micro as protoss, I know, that is why the 1/1/1 is good... have you ever faced a 4 gate? (sarcasm) Have you ever faced on as terran though?
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they're not removing warhound for good, hence the reason they buffed the immortal shields, they're just removing it for now until they find a way to fix it
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On September 16 2012 09:18 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:10 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2012 08:47 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 08:23 Sabu113 wrote:On September 16 2012 07:57 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:
[quote]
Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0.
You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely. Wow this post lol... youre using mass marine strat from ONE PLAYER as an example that terran was too strong and terran never adapted? most ridiculous thing ive seen in this forum... 4 gate beats just about any terran who doesnt scout and isnt prepared for it, just like 1/1/1 beats most protoss who dont scout/arent prepared... seriously what on earth are you whining about? Gateway units are terrible? This post lol Are you really comparing a 4gate to a 1/1/1? A 4 gate is and was toothless compard to a 1/1/1 which until the map sizes got larger was unstopable even if you knew exactly what was coming. Christ. That IEM article was on the money. People just hadnt adapted yet, sure it was unstoppable for a while, but arent there always strats that are for a period of time until they are figured out? Aside from figuring out how to deal with it, protoss also got a buff and larger maps to boot, which took the teeth right out of the 1/1/1... 4 gates are still very hard to stop, esp on a fast expand You really have no idea what a 1/1/1 is like to face, do you? 4gate doesn't come close. Yeah it must be tough to ACTUALLY micro as protoss, I know, that is why the 1/1/1 is good... have you ever faced a 4 gate?
Are you asking a protoss if he's ever faced a 4gate?
Seriously?
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On September 16 2012 10:09 Neneu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:18 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 09:10 Belisarius wrote:On September 16 2012 08:47 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 08:23 Sabu113 wrote:On September 16 2012 07:57 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 06:37 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:41 Naphal wrote:On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:
[quote]
You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran.
Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance. you and i clearly have VERY different memories then. terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors. not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups. i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt. but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now. but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do. so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans? this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now... It's funny you mention MKP, or as he used to be known as Boxer or Foxer. You know what he debuted as? The Terran that never took gas. All he would make was OCs and Marines, and he won. Maybe he started eventually doing 1-1-1, the steamroll easy mode build that originally had an 80% win rate, but that wasn't for months into the game. The ironic thing is that Protoss got no changes to deal with that build, only Warp Gate nerfs. It took a year before the Protoss meta managed to deal with such a strong build. Wanna know what happened when Protoss used Void Rays against Terrans who would spam Marauders? They were nerfed to the ground to make sure Void Ray would never be viable again in PvT. Protoss Gateway units just couldn't (and can't) compete, so they're driven to go to tech. Terran never had such pressure to go beyond Barracks. You're going to argue about hypocrisy with me with your Terran-tinted glasses? Casters galore were lamenting over how stale the Terran meta was. Of course every unit was used at some point, but whether they became staples of strategy was a different thing entirely. Wow this post lol... youre using mass marine strat from ONE PLAYER as an example that terran was too strong and terran never adapted? most ridiculous thing ive seen in this forum... 4 gate beats just about any terran who doesnt scout and isnt prepared for it, just like 1/1/1 beats most protoss who dont scout/arent prepared... seriously what on earth are you whining about? Gateway units are terrible? This post lol Are you really comparing a 4gate to a 1/1/1? A 4 gate is and was toothless compard to a 1/1/1 which until the map sizes got larger was unstopable even if you knew exactly what was coming. Christ. That IEM article was on the money. People just hadnt adapted yet, sure it was unstoppable for a while, but arent there always strats that are for a period of time until they are figured out? Aside from figuring out how to deal with it, protoss also got a buff and larger maps to boot, which took the teeth right out of the 1/1/1... 4 gates are still very hard to stop, esp on a fast expand You really have no idea what a 1/1/1 is like to face, do you? 4gate doesn't come close. Yeah it must be tough to ACTUALLY micro as protoss, I know, that is why the 1/1/1 is good... have you ever faced a 4 gate? Are you asking a protoss if he's ever faced a 4gate? Seriously?
I meant as Terran
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On September 16 2012 10:06 Hawktop wrote:
they're not removing warhound for good, hence the reason they buffed the immortal shields, they're just removing it for now until they find a way to fix it
Do you have any confirmation of this or is this just an assumption?
Balance aside, if this is true, Terran is virtually a unchanging races from Wings of Liberty to HOTS. Sorry but I'm not going to spend $60 on a expansion for a reaper upgrade and essentially a spider mine (aka Widow Mine) from SC1. What have these guys been working on the last two years? The story line, LOL?
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Please add a nice looking mech unit. Idc about balance (that can get figured out later..). Just don't bring back the uglyhound again. That model was terribad.
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I actually don't understand how a 4 gate is hard to hold? Once you have a bunker repair is so strong that it's dead. Otherwise you're on a timer til stim comes. Admittedly I am pretty skeptical about a lot of toss aggression in PvT and it still shows up in pro-games so there is probably something I'm missing.
1/1/1 was solved by map sizes and a little bit by that immortal boost. It wasn't "figured" out. Jesus. It's probably a huge reason why we won't see the tank's firepower boosted. The strategy literally broke the matchup.
I understand you've only watched sc2 and played Terran but a little more effort cmon.
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[B]On September 15 2012 22:30 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I really don't see why Zerg should hate Marauders that much
Simple.
Zerg does not have a high dps unit that they make on a regular basis to counter marauders. They are a huge bitch to kill.
Mutalisks, and Infested Terrans are the closest counter before T3. And even then, they don't do a very good job. Fungal tickles marauders as well.
Hydralisks being so bad is the biggest broken thing in the game that Blizzard refuses to fix. Nobody cares about a little speed boost, they die too damn fast.
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On September 16 2012 10:26 Sabu113 wrote:
I actually don't understand how a 4 gate is hard to hold? Once you have a bunker repair is so strong that it's dead. Otherwise you're on a timer til stim comes. Admittedly I am pretty skeptical about a lot of toss aggression in PvT and it still shows up in pro-games so there is probably something I'm missing.
1/1/1 was solved by map sizes and a little bit by that immortal boost. It wasn't "figured" out. Jesus. It's probably a huge reason why we won't see the tank's firepower boosted. The strategy literally broke the matchup.
I understand you've only watched sc2 and played Terran but a little more effort cmon.
Sentries make repairing tough
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On September 16 2012 10:40 Bananas1 wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On September 15 2012 22:30 SharkStarcraft wrote:
I really don't see why Zerg should hate Marauders that much Simple. Zerg does not have a high dps unit that they make on a regular basis to counter marauders. They are a huge bitch to kill. Mutalisks, and Infested Terrans are the closest counter before T3. And even then, they don't do a very good job. Fungal tickles marauders as well. Hydralisks being so bad is the biggest broken thing in the game that Blizzard refuses to fix. Nobody cares about a little speed boost, they die too damn fast.
Ummm the counter to marauders is zerglings... queens arent terrible early game either
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On September 16 2012 01:46 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 01:44 y0su wrote:On September 16 2012 01:38 teamhozac wrote:
"Oracle Entomb changes: Duration reduced from 45 to 25Mineral Shield health increased from 75 to 100
We were facing two issues with this ability: First – lower skilled players who didn’t react quickly would take too large an economic hit. Second – higher level players who reacted almost instantly would take too little damage from the ability. This is just a first pass at attempting to solve these two issues."
So much for the "balancing the game at the pro level argument" that so many people use LOL ... That's not what I see. Looks like youre just seeing what you want to see
Ironic coming from the ultimate balance whiner. We've missed you! 
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On September 16 2012 11:25 IPA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 01:46 teamhozac wrote:On September 16 2012 01:44 y0su wrote:On September 16 2012 01:38 teamhozac wrote:
"Oracle Entomb changes: Duration reduced from 45 to 25Mineral Shield health increased from 75 to 100
We were facing two issues with this ability: First – lower skilled players who didn’t react quickly would take too large an economic hit. Second – higher level players who reacted almost instantly would take too little damage from the ability. This is just a first pass at attempting to solve these two issues."
So much for the "balancing the game at the pro level argument" that so many people use LOL ... That's not what I see. Looks like youre just seeing what you want to see Ironic coming from the ultimate balance whiner. We've missed you!
Oh look personal attacks! yay those are fun... who was whining about balance?
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Really glad that the carrier is back and the warhound was removed. It will be interesting to see the skyToss builds now with the tempest and the Carrier. I am so glad the carrier is back
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Does the Reaper start out with the Combat Awareness ability, or does it require an upgrade?
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On September 16 2012 14:12 iremnant3847 wrote:
Does the Reaper start out with the Combat Awareness ability, or does it require an upgrade?
Reaper starts with 3 passive abilities - cliff-jumping, battlefield awareness and Combat drugs
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I don't understand why they aren't playing around with fixing the voidray and carrier like they are with Terran reapers, battlecruisers. tank (upgrade damage buff) and even raven... Terran is generally thought of as being the most complete race, yet Blizzard seems to be giving 110% to making everything about Terran viable... What have they done for protoss? Not a single change to existing units, introduced a couple of gimmicks and a slower mothership, and removed high ground warp in. Its almost like they want everyone to play Terran.
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On September 16 2012 16:16 Ryder. wrote:
I don't understand why they aren't playing around with fixing the voidray and carrier like they are with Terran reapers, battlecruisers. tank (upgrade damage buff) and even raven... Terran is generally thought of as being the most complete race, yet Blizzard seems to be giving 110% to making everything about Terran viable... What have they done for protoss? Not a single change to existing units, introduced a couple of gimmicks and a slower mothership, and removed high ground warp in. Its almost like they want everyone to play Terran.
Please tell me that was sarcasm...
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Immortal
Immortal Hardened Shield will now reduce the warhound’s Haywire Missile damage.
Warhound
This unit has been removed from the game
Lolwat ?
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On September 16 2012 16:23 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 16:16 Ryder. wrote:
I don't understand why they aren't playing around with fixing the voidray and carrier like they are with Terran reapers, battlecruisers. tank (upgrade damage buff) and even raven... Terran is generally thought of as being the most complete race, yet Blizzard seems to be giving 110% to making everything about Terran viable... What have they done for protoss? Not a single change to existing units, introduced a couple of gimmicks and a slower mothership, and removed high ground warp in. Its almost like they want everyone to play Terran. Please tell me that was sarcasm...
Probably he is just stupid. Terrans got some nerfs, including the battle-hellions which had a very good timing attack on tvz (maybe that's why... but the zerg player can go roaches instead of lings....)
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EPT
