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I'm not certain whether or not the changes to Protoss air units will be enough to make the Stargate viable, but the Mothership Core is in a good place. As far as balancing the Swarmhost and Lochusts with a range decrease, removing the Warhound, removing the Battle Hellion (essentially because no one is going to pay for the Battle Hellion upgrade, let alone lose upgrade time on Vehicle Weapons or Armor) encouraging more Reaper play and focusing entirely on the Widow Mine as the unit to address Terran Mech's weaknesses vs Protoss this is about the most "on point" patch we could have asked Blizzard for.
I think if they remove the Widow Mine's ability to attack air and reduce its supply to 1, it will be exactly where it needs to be. As far as encouraging Reaper use in the mid-game, the fundamental problem with Reaper use in the mid-game is that the unit doesn't benefit from the Stimpack upgrade, allow Reapers to benefit from Stimpacks and then you'll see Reapers used in the mid-game en mass.
The Battle Hellion is a terrible unit design, but if they're intent on keeping the Battle Hellion they only way they can do it is by replacing Infernal Pre-Igniter with Battle Hellion Transformation in the tech tree to make it an early mid-game answer to Zerglings, Banelings and Zealots while preventing it from being the worker killer that is Blue Flame Hellions. If they want to find a middle ground between mid-game survivability and worker harrassment, I think they could buff the bonus damage of the vehicle weapons upgrade to +2/+2 where they'd roast Drones again at +2 upgrades and even out on damage output with Blue Flame Hellions vs other units as well.
Or just do us all a favor and remove the stupid things so we don't have to suffer thru' all of the Transformer jokes, the only reason this unit hasn't gotten the flak it deserves is because the Warhound was OP.
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On September 15 2012 18:27 dragonsuper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 17:24 stfouri wrote:
That poll is so biased.
Maurauder is the backbone of Terran and all the Terrans love the unit (and ofc all the zerg/toss hate it).
So what did you expect from that poll? :D what i expect ? Biased ? I don't think so. My point is that u cannot keep biocentric play if u wanna balance mech, otherwise u always use BIO. Blizzard needs to make a choice and marauder is at the center of it. It's only my opinion. I personally love mech, so my choice would be remove marauder and insert the Goliath Mech for the life ! But in the poll i certainly haven't specified that.
There should be a choice what you want to play i dislike Mech Units and like to use Bio/Air so i'd just stop playing if i'm force to place Mech .
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On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0.
You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran.
Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.-
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United Kingdom12070 Posts
It doesn't overlap with yamato cannon, which are basically used to snipe thors or air units. Rarely is there a need to yamato tanks. Strike cannons will probably not be wasted on other Thors if there are tanks in play, so the usage is very different."
Actually, if you mech in TvT then using Yamato's on tanks against a biomech or other mech player is great as you can then move your tanks forward freely.
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"Giving the strike cannon ability new utility can potentially solve many problems in the game right now.
The main idea is to increase the range of strike cannons to 13. This will give Terran a way to break siege lines, just not in the way the warhound would. Of course the spell itself needs to be changed. The animation, duration, damage, energy cost, and perhaps the stunning effect might have to change.
I suggest stunning of non-massive units, and a short duration, say 5 seconds, with a slight animation delay. Capable of one-shotting a siege tanks. Possibly, but not necessarily immortals. With stunning of non-massive, I suggest not one-shotting immortals. I also think a high energy cost is reasonable, 125 energy is probably good.
(Warhound: This ability might also be something worthwhile to consider for a resurgence of the warhound as a spellcaster. It will definitely need more areas of usage, perhaps more spells. There's no reason to force this ability on the Thor.)
TvT:
Terran has a reliable way of dealing with siege lines from the ground. Even with a scan from the opponent, a single tank can't take out a Thor fast enough, and the Thor will kill the tank. With an energy requirement, it's not something that will clear an entire siege line, but something that can put you in a better spot.
It will depend on positioning and vision, as the Thor can't do this from anywhere against a well-positioned siege line. Several tanks will shut the expensive Thor down. It will also require vision to do. Siege tanks don't have range 13 vision, but they have 13 range, which makes engagements interesting if there's an interplay with air-superiority. With the ability on the warhound, this will make it less of a problem that Thors themselves are anti air.
Currently moving siege tanks in range of another siege tank in order to take it out is risky. If the opponent scanned you might just lose that tank for no benefit. The Thor change decreases the risk involved at the cost of an extra investment.
There's a micro aspect to it, it doesn't involve simply moving your army towards the tanks to attack it, so the integrity of mech play in TvT is preserved.
It isn't as much of an investment as ghosts + nukes is. We recently saw how this turned out in the GSL with MMA vs MvP. MMA was far ahead, teched into ghosts in order to break MvP's mech. The huge investment (4 ghost academies, cloak, energy upgrade, 4 nukes, several ghosts) didn't pay off accordingly and the game was reset.
With stunning to non-massive only, this will not turn into awkward Thor vs Thor stand-offs.
The problem in TvT you are talking about doesn't even exist imo so it shouldn't be fixed.
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This one of the best patch blizzard has ever made! Really nice one!
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i would love to see either ghost academies being able to build multiple nukes or nukes being built in a separate building (nuke silo building model already exists from campaign)
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On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.-
I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance.
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Why is there such a focus on "breaking tvt siege lines"? Just watch the modern TVT now and there's nothing boring and stale about it. Having a "anti-tank" mech unit will just ruin the purpose of mech. But what I'm saying has already echo'd by many so hopefully Blizz can figure that out.
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On September 15 2012 19:24 monkybone wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 19:21 Wildmoon wrote:"Giving the strike cannon ability new utility can potentially solve many problems in the game right now.
The main idea is to increase the range of strike cannons to 13. This will give Terran a way to break siege lines, just not in the way the warhound would. Of course the spell itself needs to be changed. The animation, duration, damage, energy cost, and perhaps the stunning effect might have to change.
I suggest stunning of non-massive units, and a short duration, say 5 seconds, with a slight animation delay. Capable of one-shotting a siege tanks. Possibly, but not necessarily immortals. With stunning of non-massive, I suggest not one-shotting immortals. I also think a high energy cost is reasonable, 125 energy is probably good.
(Warhound: This ability might also be something worthwhile to consider for a resurgence of the warhound as a spellcaster. It will definitely need more areas of usage, perhaps more spells. There's no reason to force this ability on the Thor.)
TvT:
Terran has a reliable way of dealing with siege lines from the ground. Even with a scan from the opponent, a single tank can't take out a Thor fast enough, and the Thor will kill the tank. With an energy requirement, it's not something that will clear an entire siege line, but something that can put you in a better spot.
It will depend on positioning and vision, as the Thor can't do this from anywhere against a well-positioned siege line. Several tanks will shut the expensive Thor down. It will also require vision to do. Siege tanks don't have range 13 vision, but they have 13 range, which makes engagements interesting if there's an interplay with air-superiority. With the ability on the warhound, this will make it less of a problem that Thors themselves are anti air.
Currently moving siege tanks in range of another siege tank in order to take it out is risky. If the opponent scanned you might just lose that tank for no benefit. The Thor change decreases the risk involved at the cost of an extra investment.
There's a micro aspect to it, it doesn't involve simply moving your army towards the tanks to attack it, so the integrity of mech play in TvT is preserved.
It isn't as much of an investment as ghosts + nukes is. We recently saw how this turned out in the GSL with MMA vs MvP. MMA was far ahead, teched into ghosts in order to break MvP's mech. The huge investment (4 ghost academies, cloak, energy upgrade, 4 nukes, several ghosts) didn't pay off accordingly and the game was reset.
With stunning to non-massive only, this will not turn into awkward Thor vs Thor stand-offs.
The problem in TvT you are talking about doesn't even exist imo so it shouldn't be fixed. Blizzard certainly seem to be of the opinion that this is a problem in TvT.
and the community mostly disagree. T doesn't need more option to break siege line.
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i think the reason that blizz wants it to be easier to break siege lines, might be because at lower levels, people have no idea what to do when there's 3-4 tanks outside of your base containing you.
i think that might be what they're trying to fix, because at higher level, those seige lines doesn't exist.
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even if BH\Tank\Mines combo work against protoss, Terran is still missing something
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Tanks are the key.
Terran needs stronger tanks to go to mech, or they need a super unit similar to the warhound.
There is no other way.
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T is becoming more and more like SC1 T, which is nice. Protoss is still gimmicky, it's almost as if Blizzard is begging Protoss players to build Stargate.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
All of my joy can not be contained
HOLY SHIT
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On September 15 2012 19:23 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2012 19:13 zimms wrote:On September 15 2012 18:52 Cloak wrote:On September 15 2012 18:45 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
From what I watched in streams, Terran players now stick to WoL style. I don't think this is what we want and what Blizzard wants... Terrans have always been the most resistant to trying new units because of how attractive Marine/Marauder is. It took several months for Terrans to realize there were Medivacs, Ghosts, and Vikings. Going from clear domination of Warhound to nothingness is a sharp jolt, but they'll start to ease into WM/BH/Tank soon enough. If they can't close the gap, Blizz will step in with WH 2.0. You must be so proud of yourself for not playing Terran. Seriously, it took Terrans months until they used Medivacs and Vikings? -.- I'm not proud. I just remember how beta (and early WoL) played out. Terrans were absolutely convinced Colossus was unstoppable, then they were like, what if... I made... an air unit? It seems obvious now, but because it's been almost 2 years. You can watch the old GSLs and see how most games were proxy Barracks or Stim-timings. It wasn't Terran's fault, because they worked, and players go for the path of least resistance.
you and i clearly have VERY different memories then.
terran was the first race to fully discover their possibilities, they found out how to effeciently (ab)use all their units before protoss even built their first warpprism in a professional game (whitera excluded) or zerg learned to make infestors.
not to mention every metagameshift for protoss or zerg was encouraged by flatout buffing them, terrans in comparison got themselves nerfed, the reaper got totally destroyed, the thor and the ghost basically removed from certain matchups.
i remember fully well how protoss never got beyond warpgaterushing for a long time, or how zerg made roach hydra every zvp and ling muta every zvt.
but no, terran did not stop there, mkp took what was left and invented the 1 1 1, provoking yet another buff for protoss, hellion harrass was too hard for ladderzerg, so queen got buffed, terran is now balanced for toptier pros, so toptier infact, that you see very few of them outside of korea. if bw bonjwas had not been mainly terrans, and mvp mma mkp polt would have assisted nestea or mc with developing zerg or protoss instead, the game would look fundamentally different now.
but now in the present, you still see zerg amoving their infestors with their army, or protoss amoving their colossi so they attack some extractor when there is a fight only a bit further ahead... in GSL!!! sure there are terrans that play badly as well from time to time, with the tiny difference, that they get fucking destroyed if they do.
so why is the colossus not removed? why do archons and chargelost perform so well under attack-move? is that not killing esports? is zerg lategame not overpowered? shouldn't the skill ceiling for zerg and protoss be increased to match terrans?
this hypocrisy sickens me, i shall take a break and play black mesa mod for now...
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On September 15 2012 16:21 Garmer wrote:
i still think that the reaper should land mines, is the best thing for a raid units, like the reaper
not the same anti-building mines that were removed, but more toward the vulture concept
this would work just so well. But on the other hand iI relly think that the regen stuff should be taken out. Like what the hell really, it's the Zerg race that has that distinct passive ability. The has heal and repair, toss got the shield. Now why would they mix this up, I don't understand. All the races start to resemble each other a bit more and more with every change 
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On September 15 2012 19:39 Plexa wrote:
All of my joy can not be contained
HOLY SHIT
we expect a blog from you, sir!
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EPT
