EPTThe Remnants of Protoss, a Broken Race - Page 4
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Parj
France55 Posts
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gCgCrypto
Germany297 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27303 Posts
On September 10 2012 22:50 Whalecore wrote: Hmmm, I actually think the warp-in mechanic is pretty cool, and adds a lot of aggressive options. I think the problem with Protoss is that their units need to be in one huge ball in order to fight cost efficiently. The warp-in mechanic, and the recall ability both encourage Protoss players to split their army into tiny chunks to harass and defend multiple bases. The problem is that they rely on expensive deathball units like the Colossus High templar (and now Tempest?) to win fights vs equal cost armies by the other races. I wish the Stalker was more powerful in straight up fights. I love the unit as a mobile harass unit, but Protoss could really use a Dragoon type unit available from the gateway imo. Their units are weak and generally have to be deathballed precisely because stronger gateway units with warpgate would be silly. It's a design flaw that I really wish Blizzard would look at again | ||
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UntoTheBreach
25 Posts
PvT: (1) Late game PvT is relatively balanced if Toss goes gateway units + templar archive/robo bay. (2) Those are the only options a Toss player has against Terran. A stargate option would make the game a lot more interesting. (3) Unfortunately, marines and vikings are OP against air. Something needs to be done about this. (4) Also, Terran is incredibly strong mid-game. The Terran bio-ball gets out of control and can only be held at bay with forcefields. Give us a viable mid game strategy, with no quick and easy hard counter like vikings against collosus. PvZ: (1) Even in WoL, Zerg is too powerful in this match-up. Toss is forced to resort to gimmicks to survive, none of which is a viable strategy in the long term. In open terrain we die; if we make a single slip with our forcefields we die. Zerg just has to get roach/ling and follow the same recipe every game. (2) The new units are just the death blow to Toss. Zerg gets huge buffs to hydras and ultras, as well as incredibly strong new units, like a unit that can pull collossi out of position. We get nothing. (3) The only way you're going to get this balanced is by giving some pretty huge buffs to Toss. We need to hold our own in wide maps and we need a way to win matches without relying on gimmicks. (4) Why can't we stick with the stargate tech? Because infestors are so powerful. Because mutas have area of effect. Because so many corruptors can be produced all at once. So, my suggestions: - Nerf the infestor's anti-air ability. They've got freakin' hydras. - The void ray is a tank unit, so give it a tank ability that makes it stronger against ground and less fragile against marines. - The phoenix is a specialist anti-air fighter, so improve its aerial fighting capabilities. The phoenix ought to be much stronger than the viking, because Toss (if the game is going to work) will become dependent on stargate tech, and Terran gets a reactor to produce two vikings at the same time. | ||
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-Cyrus-
United States318 Posts
OP hasn't played in at least two seasons and yet he claims to be a high level player. He hasn't played seriously in about two years. Even then, he played at a low Master level when he was playing. You shouldn't lie and claim to be something you aren't in order to gain credibility. | ||
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Archon96
United States38 Posts
On September 10 2012 20:06 Rimak wrote: Guys don't go into balance Issues, there are other topics to do so. Question is about protoss desingn being broken and gimmick, not about which race is stronger/weaker. +1. I am moderating some of these posts and trying to redirect us back to the topic when I can. Most of you are raising good arguments and counterarguments. I want to remind everyone that this issue is linked to HotS but also falls into WoL. It is not an easy problem to fix by tweaking a number value or adding a new unit. | ||
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meadbert
United States681 Posts
Mothership Core is playable. Temporary Cannon does not matter since they can harass bases without the mothership core and because they can pull back. Energizing Nexus for mass Chrono adds about 80% of a buildings worth of production which leads to the question of why I would not just build a Gateway instead. You would need to be spending all of it on probes for it to matter but even then you would saturate fast enough you would want the 3rd Nexus anyway and at that point you would need the army to defend it. Recall is rarely used by Mothership as it is. I would mostly expect it to be used by those who go mass Void Ray vs Zerg. Maybe Mass Voids will be more playable at lower levels now that they can Mass Recall and at least Voids are not hit by Swarm Hosts and Warhounds. The main advantage of Mothership Core is it will allow Mothership to come out slightly faster. As far as I am concerned that is the buf from WoL for Protoss. Mothership comes out earlier and occupies your Nexus for less time. EDIT: I was right the first time. Mass Energiving Nexus is only worth 80% of a building. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
No, the real issue there is that they did not fix the problems that Protoss already had. For as long as there is no limitation to the warpgate mechanic it is destined to remain an incredibly easy and gimmicky race to play. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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GodTroll
Canada41 Posts
On September 10 2012 08:57 MattBarry wrote: You're missing the point. Protoss wins, but it isn't a fun or interesting race to play compared to BW. I know people say that about every race but it is especially bad for Protoss It doesn't matter if it's fun or not. Do you think in GSL code S level, people care about how fun it is to play the game? The bottom line is, it doesn't matter whether or not the race is "fun" to play or not. 1a move win is still a win. I can't believe you're complaining about the luxury of having "fun" units, when other races are struggling to even keep up with the win ratio. That being said, from a neutral point of view I do agree that the unit design of HotS for protoss needs more refinement, but the game' still in first wave of beta invites and it's way too early to start complaining. | ||
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UntoTheBreach
25 Posts
On September 10 2012 18:16 Frozne wrote: Warpgates are no more gimmicky than death drops or Zerg remaxing in seconds.Warpgates need to be removed so that our tier 1 units can be properly balanced. Then they can give us real units with proper balance. Warpgates are still the core of the problem. . Half our units don't even come from warpgates, anyway. What are you saying, they can't buff the void ray because of warpgates? Poppycock. They just don't like our race. | ||
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Brahoono
119 Posts
Instead of answering that way you might want to ask yourself why so many people always argue with broodwar. It's not only because of nostagia. Just take some time and watch some good scbw vods...it just feels like the way better game even though it pretty much happened by accident. | ||
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Pantythief
Denmark657 Posts
On September 10 2012 08:57 MattBarry wrote: You're missing the point. Protoss wins, but it isn't a fun or interesting race to play compared to BW. I know people say that about every race but it is especially bad for Protoss that is your opinion. it does not make it a general opinion. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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MattBarry
United States4006 Posts
On September 11 2012 01:52 GodTroll wrote: It doesn't matter if it's fun or not. Do you think in GSL code S level, people care about how fun it is to play the game? The bottom line is, it doesn't matter whether or not the race is "fun" to play or not. 1a move win is still a win. I can't believe you're complaining about the luxury of having "fun" units, when other races are struggling to even keep up with the win ratio. That being said, from a neutral point of view I do agree that the unit design of HotS for protoss needs more refinement, but the game' still in first wave of beta invites and it's way too early to start complaining. I think this might be the first time anyone has ever told me a video game isn't supposed to be fun. | ||
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unteqair
United States308 Posts
On September 11 2012 02:00 UntoTheBreach wrote: Warpgates are no more gimmicky than death drops or Zerg remaxing in seconds. Half our units don't even come from warpgates, anyway. What are you saying, they can't buff the void ray because of warpgates? Poppycock. They just don't like our race. Yeah. I am sick and tired of this racism. I never thought I'd see so much collective crying over a game. If the style of Protoss isn't to your liking, why not play or cheer for a different race? Is the color scheme not to your liking? If they made Protoss look like Zerg and Zerg look like Protoss and switched the names, then maybe your problems would be solved. Yes, warpgate and forcefield have to be offset in other ways in order for there to be balance. Yes, the new Protoss units aren't that good yet. Yes, the warhound kills stalkers and immortals in order to make mech viable for Terran. However, if the style of Terran is your ideal style, then shouldn't you just switch to Terran? It seems like many of you want to just be able to mass stalkers and immortals and "a-move." Well, Terran is doing that better than you could have hoped for. Just switch and imagine that they are blue. | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
The primary issue is that Protoss is designed around FFs and Warpgates, and because of that, the design has turned out to be pretty bad. If and when I've had it with the awesome, super-smart, Egyptian-alien cool Protoss, I'm going back to Terran. At least there, Bolts can truly unleash the wrath of the thunder god and his Thor-hounds upon unruly overgrown bugs and endangered aliens. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On September 11 2012 01:37 -Cyrus- wrote: http://sc2ranks.com/us/889034/Archon OP hasn't played in at least two seasons and yet he claims to be a high level player. He hasn't played seriously in about two years. Even then, he played at a low Master level when he was playing. You shouldn't lie and claim to be something you aren't in order to gain credibility. "High level player" is a subjective statement. He doesn't need to have replays beating Idra to know something about the game, and you don't need a master's degree in philosophy (even a low master's degree - like from a state school) to understand that he probably thinks being in Master's is pretty good, he's not actively lying, and you're wrong to think that your standard of "high level" is the only "real" standard. Instead, you're trying to be confrontational and sensationalist - which only makes intelligent people (like a lot of the people on TL) listen to you less. On topic, I'm disappointed with everything Protoss has in HotS - to the point that I'm wondering if I shouldn't work on WoL builds a good bit more since I'll be using the same ones in HotS. I hope they improve Protoss, but I highly doubt they're going to remove warpgates or forcefields in time for release. Maybe if they had started working in that direction earlier - but as it is now... they'll be lucky to have playable new protoss units by release without looking at their mistakes from WoL. | ||
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-Cyrus-
United States318 Posts
On September 11 2012 03:00 Treehead wrote: "High level player" is a subjective statement. He doesn't need to have replays beating Idra to know something about the game, and you don't need a master's degree in philosophy (even a low master's degree - like from a state school) to understand that he probably thinks being in Master's is pretty good, he's not actively lying, and you're wrong to think that your standard of "high level" is the only "real" standard. Instead, you're trying to be confrontational and sensationalist - which only makes intelligent people (like a lot of the people on TL) listen to you less. On topic, I'm disappointed with everything Protoss has in HotS - to the point that I'm wondering if I shouldn't work on WoL builds a good bit more since I'll be using the same ones in HotS. I hope they improve Protoss, but I highly doubt they're going to remove warpgates or forcefields in time for release. Maybe if they had started working in that direction earlier - but as it is now... they'll be lucky to have playable new protoss units by release without looking at their mistakes from WoL. He made this same post on the bnet forums and claimed to have top 50 GM MMR when you can see that is a blatant lie just by looking at his sc2ranks page. | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On September 11 2012 03:06 -Cyrus- wrote: He made this same post on the bnet forums and claimed to have top 50 GM MMR when you can see that is a blatant lie just by looking at his sc2ranks page. Maybe you're right and he lied on another post that I never read. But you're trying to discredit someone in a thread that's supposed to be about proposed changes. I don't particularly think they're likely or clever (I wouldn't implment them), but if you disagree with him, the correct response is not to contest who he is or why we should listen to him, but to respond to what he has to say. If you had attached your complaint to some well-thought-out critique of his proposal (you can start with "never gonna happen this year", move onto "how to change the unit stats of gateway units and/or not make protoss or the sentry a complete joke", and finish up with "homogenization of a game about three distinct races"). Then it's not a weird attempt at internet character assassination. On top of that, I'm lower than Master's league, so I don't care that he's not a GM. I'd suspect that many such people reading this are in the same boat. | ||
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