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On September 07 2012 18:35 Charon1979 wrote:
Not a single point you raised has an constant impact on the game itself or its surroundings.
So you cant tell people "this guy has 400 clicks/key presses a minute"?
Wow... a serious problem. How about you just tell them he has over 400 clicks/key presses a minute for an additional "wow effect" then?
Do you really think that is waaaaaay worse then tooltips which say:
Fungal Growth duration: 2,877 seconds
Storm duration: 5,755 seconds
Really?
Oh yeah the best way to introduce people is obviously to lie, so they can get back to me once they get into it.
Did you really just compare something you can explain to people who never touched the game to a fucking tooltip? Really!?
Just fyi I remember artosis on some show making the exact same comment about how fucked up blizzard time is for the exact reason I named, funny to see how people react depending on who states something.
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I dont get why people are that aggressive on this topic.
It seems legit to me... It should have been fixed from the beginning. Of course Blizzard knows how to, and it wouldnt be time consuming to do it.
But they may wonder about the 2 problems raised in this topic:
- Habits of players
- Not round numbers....
(On my own, i dont care about those two, but it's just my opinion..)
@Lorch, he proposed to change the sentence "..400 clicks" to "...over 400 clicks", which is less precise, but not a lie. (but still irrelevant imo -_-)
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On September 07 2012 18:50 Icks wrote:I dont get why people are that aggressive on this topic. It seems legit to me... It should have been fixed from the beginning. Of course Blizzard knows how to, and it wouldnt be time consuming to do it. But they may wonder about the 2 problems raised in this topic: - Habits of players - Not round numbers.... (On my own, i dont care about those two, but it's just my opinion..) @Lorch, he proposed to change the sentence "..400 clicks" to "...over 400 clicks", which is less precise, but not a lie. 
Ah well sure thats a solid point and all, but is that a necessity when all it would take is a programmer so spend 30 minutes on fixing it?
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On September 07 2012 03:30 Grumbels wrote:
Btw, from a programming point of view this isn't hard. The reason Blizzard is hesitant has to do with the default speed being different, so nice values like 40 seconds become like 33 seconds, so it's weird.
Really what does it matter anyway? If it says 33 instead of 40, it doesn't change anything. If they get a build time with decimals they could just round it to the nearest intergere problem solved. If they get complicated numbers like alot of xx.5 then it might need more discussion but they could at least say that to the community.
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On September 07 2012 18:55 Lorch wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 18:50 Icks wrote:I dont get why people are that aggressive on this topic. It seems legit to me... It should have been fixed from the beginning. Of course Blizzard knows how to, and it wouldnt be time consuming to do it. But they may wonder about the 2 problems raised in this topic: - Habits of players - Not round numbers.... (On my own, i dont care about those two, but it's just my opinion..) @Lorch, he proposed to change the sentence "..400 clicks" to "...over 400 clicks", which is less precise, but not a lie. Ah well sure thats a solid point and all, but is that a necessity when all it would take is a programmer so spend 30 minutes on fixing it?
30 minutes to rebalance the whole game?
not bad... not bad...
In order to change the clock you have to:
1) rewrite EVERY tooltip containing time units (that alone is WAY more than "30 minutes")
2) round every number containing time units, cause no one wants to see "heals X every 1,39 seconds"
3) rebalance everything around the new numbers. Just rounding attackspeed for example can lead to an sick increase/decrease in DPS in higher unit numbers, so you also have to adjust damage. Rounded buildtimes also can have a serious impact.
So please stop spreading your fairytale about "just 30 minutes work"
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On September 07 2012 03:28 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 03:21 Duval wrote:
I bet you know everything about the programming aspect of the clock. Ever thought that it might be not as easy as you think it is, else... it would be done?
You can easily play in real-time, except everything will be slower (obviously). For them to 'fix' blizz time they're going to have to change EVERY timing (build times etc), I doubt is as easy as 'LETS FIX THIS SHIT NOW' i'm not stupid, i never said it take zero effort to fix it, but don't make it sound like it's too hart for blizzard to fix it in a reasonable amount of time, because its not, and they failed to do it. it's basically their job, and they failed to do it. i don't have to know anything about programming to know that progamming a clock is a lot easier than programming new units and all the other new features in HotS.
There are other aspects to it as well. They don't have developers that have nothing else to do. They prioritize.
That's normal in software development. You can't have everything. You have time constraints. I could bet you they have
some very cool ideas they aren't implementing because they are doing something they consider more important.
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knowing the 4 gate will hit at 6 minutes is easier then knowing it will hit at 4:45 or something like that . hope they dont change it .also is nice when you played a 1 hour game that in real time is much less .
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They'd have to adjust build/research times and attack speeds to compensate (probably other things I'm not thinking of too) and it's just not that big of a deal in the end. Blizzard time moves faster than real time and it's been that way for well over a decade.
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Ah well sure thats a solid point and all, but is that a necessity when all it would take is a programmer so spend 30 minutes on fixing it?
There are two solutions they can implement.
a) A joke of a solution: Multiplying the value by 1.38 and then outputting this in the timer. This would have tooltips wrong, end game timings on the score screens etc. Basically, it'd be a joke. That change would take more than 30 minutes to code, review, QA and approve.
b) A proper solution. Changing the core game engine 'frames' to use a smaller effective time slice, then tweaking the unit train times (or rounding on the tooltips), and checking balance. The proper solution would take literally man-months to complete - and may have corner cases that aren't fully understood until the job is complete - this would have inherent risk in creating serious balance/systemic bugs.
Please, stop thinking that professional games development teams can just open the source code, hack in a fix - and that's that. It's not how it works - it's far, far more complicated than that.
And what's the actual benefit from this change. In theory - any balance changes? No. Any difference in game play? No. An arbitary set of timings are adjusted to another set of arbitary timings? Yes.
I can see why Blizzard haven't prioritized this change in their roadmap - far more important things to consider.
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On September 07 2012 19:38 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 18:55 Lorch wrote:On September 07 2012 18:50 Icks wrote:I dont get why people are that aggressive on this topic. It seems legit to me... It should have been fixed from the beginning. Of course Blizzard knows how to, and it wouldnt be time consuming to do it. But they may wonder about the 2 problems raised in this topic: - Habits of players - Not round numbers.... (On my own, i dont care about those two, but it's just my opinion..) @Lorch, he proposed to change the sentence "..400 clicks" to "...over 400 clicks", which is less precise, but not a lie. Ah well sure thats a solid point and all, but is that a necessity when all it would take is a programmer so spend 30 minutes on fixing it? 30 minutes to rebalance the whole game? not bad... not bad... In order to change the clock you have to: 1) rewrite EVERY tooltip containing time units (that alone is WAY more than "30 minutes") 2) round every number containing time units, cause no one wants to see "heals X every 1,39 seconds" 3) rebalance everything around the new numbers. Just rounding attackspeed for example can lead to an sick increase/decrease in DPS in higher unit numbers, so you also have to adjust damage. Rounded buildtimes also can have a serious impact. So please stop spreading your fairytale about "just 30 minutes work"
You guys still don't get it. This would be an entirely cosmetic change with no adjustment made to the actual build times of anything. No rebalancing needed!
display_tooltip = round (old_tooltip * gamespeed);
Boom, one line of code. Fixed. No need to manually change every tooltip in the unit data at all. Making a clock count in real seconds instead of game seconds is equally trivial, as are apm calculations.
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On September 07 2012 05:11 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 03:19 tztztz wrote:On September 07 2012 03:13 Charon1979 wrote:
whats wrong with "blizzard time" when everything ingame is measured in "blizzard time"? whats wrong with blizzard time? how about measuring everthing in real time, how about that? i don't thing it's too much to ask for. lol, even dustin browder admits that it's stupid. We have possibly hundreds of vital strategy timings memorized that are measured in blizzard seconds. Changing it now is retarded.
This. This, this and all this.
I know I have to back off when terrans get medivacs at 10. Know 5:40 isn't a good time to move my units out of my base if I suspect my opponent is 4gating in pvp. Why change this for a pointless reason
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On September 07 2012 23:09 gamingaddictmike wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 05:11 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On September 07 2012 03:19 tztztz wrote:On September 07 2012 03:13 Charon1979 wrote:
whats wrong with "blizzard time" when everything ingame is measured in "blizzard time"? whats wrong with blizzard time? how about measuring everthing in real time, how about that? i don't thing it's too much to ask for. lol, even dustin browder admits that it's stupid. We have possibly hundreds of vital strategy timings memorized that are measured in blizzard seconds. Changing it now is retarded. This. This, this and all this. I know I have to back off when terrans get medivacs at 10. Know 5:40 isn't a good time to move my units out of my base if I suspect my opponent is 4gating in pvp. Why change this for a pointless reason
Almost all of those timings are going to be tentative again once HotS arrives anyway... It would be silly to change the clock now; it would be sensible to change the clock in the HotS beta.
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United States4883 Posts
Do you realize how stupid it is to be complaining about Blizzard time now. This far into the game?
When you think of how the entire game would have to be rehauled so that a 60-second build time would actually take 47.83 seconds of real time, how can you even complain about the clock? In addition, I want to add that ALL of the known timings and understanding of the game that have taken 2 years to fully discover and develop are based around "blizzard time"; changing this would screw all players to hell as they would have to learn a completely new set of timings.
Literally, it doesn't matter. Let it go.
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I rely heavily on the blizz clock. I check zergs third at 4:30 - 5:00
I know I have to make something happen in pvz around the 9 min mark.
I know I have to start worrying about drops at the 8 min mark in pvt
I would really hate it if they make it real time seconds instead but I guess it does make sense. Would hate the time it'd take to get used to it thought :p
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I actually like the blizzard time. It doesn't really matter how fast time goes in game. With blizzard time, you always know after how many in game seconds for example a worker is built, regardless of game speed, which i find very usefull.
There are things that could have been done differently, like normalising it at faster speed instead of normal, because it would seem more natural.
Oh, but after reading the op, i guess you don't care about the clock. in that case, i would consider this thing of least importance during the introduction of hots (or any other) beta. ><
Besides, the video is 10 months old, maybe there has been a priority shift? I don't know; but the point is, you don't either.
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On September 07 2012 23:26 SC2John wrote:
Do you realize how stupid it is to be complaining about Blizzard time now. This far into the game?
When you think of how the entire game would have to be rehauled so that a 60-second build time would actually take 47.83 seconds of real time, how can you even complain about the clock? In addition, I want to add that ALL of the known timings and understanding of the game that have taken 2 years to fully discover and develop are based around "blizzard time"; changing this would screw all players to hell as they would have to learn a completely new set of timings.
Literally, it doesn't matter. Let it go.
like people said, with hots, the game will most likely change so much that they have to learn new timings anyway. besides, don't make it sound like it's the most difficult thing in the world to get used to a couple of new numbers. they don't habe to learn every new timing ever developed in the history of sc2, only get used to the new numbers of the timings in the current meta, which probably takes a couple of days.
if you think thats a problem for players, you should give up playing sc2, because it's waaaaaay harder than memorizing a couple of numbers. not a single pro player would have a problem with fixing the clock, because knowing the exact times of the timings is the least of their worries, trust me.
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It would be actually pretty easy fix for them to do, but the problem is that it would create many wierd numbers, which is really not that fun to watch. If they change it they will have to re balance every unit time a bit (round up the number from, for example, 18.71 to the closer full number which is 19, that does only small change to balance, but it is a still a change.
HotS is the best time to fix that, since the game is re balancing anyways ^^. It will take some time getting used to all the new timigns but at teh end it gives you a better tool for life (cause I am sure your brain is confused if you need to think in normal time and Blizz time when you chnage from teh game to real life  )
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United States4883 Posts
On September 08 2012 01:55 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 23:26 SC2John wrote:
Do you realize how stupid it is to be complaining about Blizzard time now. This far into the game?
When you think of how the entire game would have to be rehauled so that a 60-second build time would actually take 47.83 seconds of real time, how can you even complain about the clock? In addition, I want to add that ALL of the known timings and understanding of the game that have taken 2 years to fully discover and develop are based around "blizzard time"; changing this would screw all players to hell as they would have to learn a completely new set of timings.
Literally, it doesn't matter. Let it go. like people said, with hots, the game will most likely change so much that they have to learn new timings anyway. besides, don't make it sound like it's the most difficult thing in the world to get used to a couple of new numbers. they don't habe to learn every new timing ever developed in the history of sc2, only get used to the new numbers of the timings in the current meta, which probably takes a couple of days. if you think thats a problem for players, you should give up playing sc2, because it's waaaaaay harder than memorizing a couple of numbers. not a single pro player would have a problem with fixing the clock, because knowing the exact times of the timings is the least of their worries, trust me.
You have no clue what you're talking about. If you watch or listen to any pro player, they talk about exact specific timings, including very specific time ranges ("4 minutes to brood lords", "3 minutes after gas until speed", etc). Literally EVERY timing would be reset and have to be reworked in order to figure out specific timings. Even if I do a 1rax expand, I would have to play a game just to find out when my CC actually goes down, which is ridiculous. Then I would have to do it for cloaked banshees, a hellion drop, a stim timing, a thor timing, etc. Then I would have to do it for all races. Too much, too much.
Sc2 is very much a game of numbers, probability, and calculations. You have several triggers and non-triggers based on specific down-to-the-second timing (especially in high level ZvZ). You have already established exact timing windows for if you delay tech or kill an army or delay an expansion. Sc2 is all about time and numbers.
Resetting all of these would be a HUGE mistake, one that Blizzard won't actually do, I'm sure.
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Personally, I'd rather if people didn't play on the fastest speed setting.
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On September 08 2012 08:13 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2012 01:55 tztztz wrote:On September 07 2012 23:26 SC2John wrote:
Do you realize how stupid it is to be complaining about Blizzard time now. This far into the game?
When you think of how the entire game would have to be rehauled so that a 60-second build time would actually take 47.83 seconds of real time, how can you even complain about the clock? In addition, I want to add that ALL of the known timings and understanding of the game that have taken 2 years to fully discover and develop are based around "blizzard time"; changing this would screw all players to hell as they would have to learn a completely new set of timings.
Literally, it doesn't matter. Let it go. like people said, with hots, the game will most likely change so much that they have to learn new timings anyway. besides, don't make it sound like it's the most difficult thing in the world to get used to a couple of new numbers. they don't habe to learn every new timing ever developed in the history of sc2, only get used to the new numbers of the timings in the current meta, which probably takes a couple of days. if you think thats a problem for players, you should give up playing sc2, because it's waaaaaay harder than memorizing a couple of numbers. not a single pro player would have a problem with fixing the clock, because knowing the exact times of the timings is the least of their worries, trust me. You have no clue what you're talking about. If you watch or listen to any pro player, they talk about exact specific timings, including very specific time ranges ("4 minutes to brood lords", "3 minutes after gas until speed", etc). Literally EVERY timing would be reset and have to be reworked in order to figure out specific timings. Even if I do a 1rax expand, I would have to play a game just to find out when my CC actually goes down, which is ridiculous. Then I would have to do it for cloaked banshees, a hellion drop, a stim timing, a thor timing, etc. Then I would have to do it for all races. Too much, too much. Sc2 is very much a game of numbers, probability, and calculations. You have several triggers and non-triggers based on specific down-to-the-second timing (especially in high level ZvZ). You have already established exact timing windows for if you delay tech or kill an army or delay an expansion. Sc2 is all about time and numbers. Resetting all of these would be a HUGE mistake, one that Blizzard won't actually do, I'm sure.
Did you know BW doesn't have a game clock at all, and pro players were able to hit perfect timings nonetheless? You want to know what the new timing would be if the game clock was actually a clock? Divide the old one by 1.38 (or whatever it is). CC at 3:20? New time is 2:25, and I didn't even have to play a game! Too much work! Someone here has no clue what he's talking about, and it isn't the guy you replied to.
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