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On October 04 2010 22:04 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 21:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:On October 04 2010 21:00 kudlaty_true wrote:
Um.. don't you all think, that this poll is missing one option?
- It's not the whole story so I'll restrain myself from giving not relevant answer.
No? Oh, it's just me then.
A lot of you guys are comparing one terran only campaign to the whole story set in the entire universe in 6 previous parts.
Please remember, that the first 10 chapters of original starcraft was terran only too, not a whole lot of intergalactic battles.
Like someone here or there said earlier: this whole campaign will include two points:
1. Kerrigan planned it all (the deinfestation, too)
2. All of the races unite and battle one big scary evil.
Basically blizzard will pull the frozen throne ending. This point has been brought up many times and it's been thoroughly explained that this is an absolutely terrible excuse. This game was sold as a stand-alone game with as many mission as either SC or BW and took significantly longer to make with a much higher budget and a lot better resources/technology available. This makes your point a terrible excuse to try to justify a bad story. It's better than the Dark Templar campaign of Brood War. Most stories require some kind of plot and/or character progression. The DT campaign had none of this. I don't think many people would have considered WoL acceptable if it were so inconseqential and poorly plotted. And before you ask, yes, the broadcast, Valarians appearance and the Char missions were all more relevant and eventful than that one chapter. And probably the entirety of Brood War if the games installation recap is any sign of relevence. Even the plot device of the artifacts show more promise than the temple did.
so now you are comparing a full game with 27 misssions TO one arc in broodwar. Way to contradict your own statement. As for plot device, THEY BOTH EQUALLY SUCK because they do exactly what you need them to. Except the protoss where simply cleansing zerg off a planet while raynor wanted to save kerrigan.
MEMO TO world PLOT DEVICES ARE BAD.
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Starcraft 1 was far more darker, SC2 felt too hollywood-esque and was full of cliches. SC1 all the way.
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On October 05 2010 03:38 Pandonetho wrote:
And what about badass levels? They went down 9000 notches.
Marine:
Sir, we've 86'ed this cerebrate. We shouldn't have any more problems with those sunken colonies
Sir, this cerebrate's been whacked. We shouldn't run into any smacked up ultralisks anytime soon.
Let's wax these critters!
That's called badass.
Not, "HALP, WE'RE SURROUNDED BY ZERG AND ARE GUNNA DIE"
A real report would be: Sir, we've just had a whole cargo ship full of whoopass dumped on us. We ran into a new strain of Ultralisk, and it took a lotta pepper to bring it down. To top it all off, recon reports the critter's been reincarnated by a nearby cerebrate, and it's on its way back for more!
Or "Sir, these sunken colonies aren't being affected by anything we hit'em with. I bet there's one'a them cerebrate critters pumpin em full of energy nearby."
All the quotes from SC1 were SO memorable. SC2 just shit all over the dialogue.
I think that's a great point. The whole "SC2 dialogue was fine because that's what space cowboys sound like!" argument is so wrong. In SC1, the terran dialogue had its own style and humor attached to it. They didn't sound as grandiose as the Protoss, but they made up for it with general badassery. In SC2, every cliche'd line spewing from Raynor's mouth made me want to puke.
People arguing that SC2 dialogue was actually better than SC1 makes me sad for humanity =(
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"You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
What does this even mean?
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Comparing a completed story, vs. an uncompleted one
is
a very hard discussion.
edit, yes I know, it has been said before. But I want to warn people so they wont waste their time on it ^^
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On October 05 2010 09:09 Mutaahh wrote:
Comparing a completed story, vs. an uncompleted one
is
a very hard discussion.
edit, yes I know, it has been said before. But I want to warn people so they wont waste their time on it ^^
And what about the people who are just comparing the Terran Arcs individually to WOL.
Blizzard back then could make 10 episodes with more gravitas than the half assed crap they did with 30 episodes of WoL.
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I definitely think SC1 had the better plot, in comparison to what has happened so far. I'm looking at Mutaahh's post right now and I agree it's hard to compare an unfinished story to a "finished" one, but SC1's characters and plot really stuck with me. Maybe it's just nostalgia factor, or maybe not. I guess I'll go play it again sometime and get back to ya.
Honestly, I felt like SC2's plot was ripped off of a fairly cliche sci-fi movie. And oh god, the dialogue... but I guess it was bearable enough for me to finish playing it. Actually, I really liked playing the missions themselves.
Maybe blizzard was trying to appeal to the masses? I dunno. I mean, I have several casual friends who happened to like to story and stuff. Or maybe they were distracted by the fancy graphics @_@
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The poll is still bias'd in the answers you can give..
3 against SC2, 1 for SC2 =s
SC1 though.
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On October 05 2010 10:20 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 09:09 Mutaahh wrote:
Comparing a completed story, vs. an uncompleted one
is
a very hard discussion.
edit, yes I know, it has been said before. But I want to warn people so they wont waste their time on it ^^ And what about the people who are just comparing the Terran Arcs individually to WOL. Blizzard back then could make 10 episodes with more gravitas than the half assed crap they did with 30 episodes of WoL.
You do realise that nothing productive happened in BW, right? Apart from Kerrigans ascension which we already knew from the SCI epilogue.
The UED were nothing but a disposable obstacle who existed only as a thorne in the side of all the other factions. Maybe if they did some lasting damage, or if stukov, or gerard or someone survived to continue playing a role. I did like the people in the UED campaign, so it's just a real bummer that their eventual fate was to be the BW equivilent of SCIIs Tal'Darim.
Shakuras was arguably the worst and most pointless chapter out of all of them which was basically a weak attempt to make Kerrigan look manipulative and cunning even though her supposed motive of killing the cerebrates had been done before she ever introduced her self like an idiot, who then revealed herself in the middle of a DT war zone like an idiot who only escaped because Zeratul let her get away with killing Aldaris like an idiot, and because Aldaris was too much of an idiot to warn Zeratul until the very end..
How is any of that not worse than WoL? The fight with Aldaris followed by the "grand" reveal of Kerrigans so called manipulations struck me as a bad parody, and no amount of speculation and supposition that I saw on the forums made it any better.
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Should be "Better plot," not "Best plot," because you're only comparing 2 things.
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On October 05 2010 09:09 Mutaahh wrote:
Comparing a completed story, vs. an uncompleted one
is
a very hard discussion.
edit, yes I know, it has been said before. But I want to warn people so they wont waste their time on it ^^
It's not really that hard of a discussion. You paid how much for SC and BW? Probably as much for both as just WoL, even inflation included. Yet we got this story.
Unfortunately, I think that the WC3 "every side should just band up against one enemy" routine is going to go on in the next expansions. I really hope I'm wrong though; I'll be the first one worshiping Blizzard when on the first mission of HotS, Kerrigan reinfests herself and starts taking control of the Swarm once more (maybe after offing Horner Fenix-style?).
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On October 05 2010 12:20 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 09:09 Mutaahh wrote:
Comparing a completed story, vs. an uncompleted one
is
a very hard discussion.
edit, yes I know, it has been said before. But I want to warn people so they wont waste their time on it ^^ It's not really that hard of a discussion. You paid how much for SC and BW? Probably as much for both as just WoL, even inflation included. Yet we got this story.
They were both $60.
WoL had less story overall but it was less rushed than the 3 in 1 style of the 90's and if you don't agree than consider what it offered in gameplay. I don't see a lot of people claiming that SCII was not worth $60.
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In SC1, you had some rather compelling dialogues. You didn't get any of that in SC2.
When Zeratul gave this monologue, I had nerd chills go down my spine... so poetic and striking...
"You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream. A dream from which your precious Conclave shall awaken, finding themselves drowned in a greater nightmare."
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On October 05 2010 12:44 Mooshfu wrote:
In SC1, you had some rather compelling dialogues. You didn't get any of that in SC2.
When Zeratul gave this monologue, I had nerd chills go down my spine... so poetic and striking...
"You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream. A dream from which your precious Conclave shall awaken, finding themselves drowned in a greater nightmare."
I call it senile, but we can't all be right.
I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities...
And again, WTF does this mean? Is he talking in metaphores? How is it relevant to everything else he said in this dialog?
Zeratul might not have had decent dialog for the SCII campaign, but instead of hearing him talk in riddles about his life story we are givin a memory crystal in which we can witness and take part in his poetic experiences of witnessing the entropy of entire realities.
Also Artanis had an excellent speech at the final protoss mission. And he didn't speak in metaphores.
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On October 05 2010 12:59 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 12:44 Mooshfu wrote:
In SC1, you had some rather compelling dialogues. You didn't get any of that in SC2.
When Zeratul gave this monologue, I had nerd chills go down my spine... so poetic and striking...
"You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream. A dream from which your precious Conclave shall awaken, finding themselves drowned in a greater nightmare." I call it senile, but we can't all be right. Show nested quote +I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... And again, WTF does this mean? Is he talking in metaphores? How is it relevant to everything else he said in this dialog? Zeratul might not have had decent dialog for the SCII campaign, but instead of hearing him talk in riddles about his life story we are givin a memory crystal in which we can witness and take part in his poetic experiences of witnessing the entropy of entire realities. Also Artanis had an excellent speech at the final protoss mission. And he didn't speak in metaphores.
I don't know why it matters what literary devices he uses but but his experiences he cites are literal, and his dream/nightmare comments are metaphors (English 101?)
He is responding to a criticism that suggests he is not knowledgeable and he retorts by citing his life experiences, which are clearly remarkable as can be told by their descriptions...
That piece of dialogue is a work of art.
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On October 05 2010 13:40 Mooshfu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 12:59 Billy_ wrote:On October 05 2010 12:44 Mooshfu wrote:
In SC1, you had some rather compelling dialogues. You didn't get any of that in SC2.
When Zeratul gave this monologue, I had nerd chills go down my spine... so poetic and striking...
"You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream. A dream from which your precious Conclave shall awaken, finding themselves drowned in a greater nightmare." I call it senile, but we can't all be right. I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... And again, WTF does this mean? Is he talking in metaphores? How is it relevant to everything else he said in this dialog? Zeratul might not have had decent dialog for the SCII campaign, but instead of hearing him talk in riddles about his life story we are givin a memory crystal in which we can witness and take part in his poetic experiences of witnessing the entropy of entire realities. Also Artanis had an excellent speech at the final protoss mission. And he didn't speak in metaphores. I don't know why it matters what literary devices he uses but but his experiences he cites are literal, and his dream/nightmare comments are metaphors (English 101?) He is responding to a criticism that suggests he is not knowledgeable and he retorts by citing his life experiences, which are clearly remarkable as can be told by their descriptions... That piece of dialogue is a work of art.
Yeah we're obviously meant to think that his experiences were remarkable, and the whole speech really was effective. I'm simply suggesting that maybe sharing Zeratuls remarkable experiences through the Ihan crystal was better than hearing some vague recap of his life. It would have worked a lot better with a decent voice actor, and if 90% of Zeratuls dialog wasn't a tutorial, but I digress.
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On October 05 2010 11:20 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 10:20 mutantmagnet wrote:On October 05 2010 09:09 Mutaahh wrote:
Comparing a completed story, vs. an uncompleted one
is
a very hard discussion.
edit, yes I know, it has been said before. But I want to warn people so they wont waste their time on it ^^ And what about the people who are just comparing the Terran Arcs individually to WOL. Blizzard back then could make 10 episodes with more gravitas than the half assed crap they did with 30 episodes of WoL. You do realise that nothing productive happened in BW, right? Apart from Kerrigans ascension which we already knew from the SCI epilogue. The UED were nothing but a disposable obstacle who existed only as a thorne in the side of all the other factions. Maybe if they did some lasting damage, or if stukov, or gerard or someone survived to continue playing a role. I did like the people in the UED campaign, so it's just a real bummer that their eventual fate was to be the BW equivilent of SCIIs Tal'Darim. Shakuras was arguably the worst and most pointless chapter out of all of them which was basically a weak attempt to make Kerrigan look manipulative and cunning even though her supposed motive of killing the cerebrates had been done before she ever introduced her self like an idiot, who then revealed herself in the middle of a DT war zone like an idiot who only escaped because Zeratul let her get away with killing Aldaris like an idiot, and because Aldaris was too much of an idiot to warn Zeratul until the very end.. How is any of that not worse than WoL? The fight with Aldaris followed by the "grand" reveal of Kerrigans so called manipulations struck me as a bad parody, and no amount of speculation and supposition that I saw on the forums made it any better.
Nothing productive?
Protoss:
They lose an entire homeworld and transition to shakuras, two opposing factions of protoss learn to coincide with each other. Aldaris is killed. Artanis rises as a new young leader.
Terran:
To compare the UED to the Tal'darim is just downright insulting. The Tal'darim pretty much get raped each encounter and then talk shit about getting revenge but never deliver. The UED actually did dethrone Mengsk at some point and actually did capture the overmind. They also serve as the reason for Fenix, Raynor, and Mengsk allying with Kerrigan.
Zerg:
Aside from Kerrigan's epic victory: Zeratul discovers the hybrids and Duran's true purpose, Razegal dies, Fenix dies, and Duke dies.
WoL:
Kerrigan becomes human again (she's probably even still infested). We get a vision of a coming apocalypse. In 29 missions of Terran campaign, this is all we get. This may have been passable if the story was paced better and the prophecy missions were not optional. Valerian and the plan to invade Char simply came too late in the story. The Terran campaign would have been infinitely better if this was mostly Raynor finally settling his score with Mengsk. Tychus could have been potentially awesome as well for a plot twist if his mission to simply kill Kerrigan wasn't total bullshit.
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On October 05 2010 12:34 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 12:20 mierin wrote:On October 05 2010 09:09 Mutaahh wrote:
Comparing a completed story, vs. an uncompleted one
is
a very hard discussion.
edit, yes I know, it has been said before. But I want to warn people so they wont waste their time on it ^^ It's not really that hard of a discussion. You paid how much for SC and BW? Probably as much for both as just WoL, even inflation included. Yet we got this story. They were both $60. WoL had less story overall but it was less rushed than the 3 in 1 style of the 90's and if you don't agree than consider what it offered in gameplay. I don't see a lot of people claiming that SCII was not worth $60.
Obviously not multiplayer wise, but the campaign was truly atrocious (not getting into IMBA multiplayer issues either). Filler campaigns where no matter which choice you made, you were right?
Okay, so 1) Hanson was a psycho who would infest herself in order to save her people...as long as you chose to ally with the protoss in that last mission! Otherwise you were a "good man" for saving everyone.
2) Daniel Tosh was a supervillain....unless you completed his quest chain, then he was the one person who had the compassion/clairvoyance to warn you about Tychus (which you didn't heed regardless). What absolute tripe.
Linear stories which actually admit they're linear are much more entertaining than those who say "choices matter" when they absolutely don't in the slightest, IMO.
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On October 05 2010 13:58 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 11:20 Billy_ wrote:On October 05 2010 10:20 mutantmagnet wrote:On October 05 2010 09:09 Mutaahh wrote:
Comparing a completed story, vs. an uncompleted one
is
a very hard discussion.
edit, yes I know, it has been said before. But I want to warn people so they wont waste their time on it ^^ And what about the people who are just comparing the Terran Arcs individually to WOL. Blizzard back then could make 10 episodes with more gravitas than the half assed crap they did with 30 episodes of WoL. You do realise that nothing productive happened in BW, right? Apart from Kerrigans ascension which we already knew from the SCI epilogue. The UED were nothing but a disposable obstacle who existed only as a thorne in the side of all the other factions. Maybe if they did some lasting damage, or if stukov, or gerard or someone survived to continue playing a role. I did like the people in the UED campaign, so it's just a real bummer that their eventual fate was to be the BW equivilent of SCIIs Tal'Darim. Shakuras was arguably the worst and most pointless chapter out of all of them which was basically a weak attempt to make Kerrigan look manipulative and cunning even though her supposed motive of killing the cerebrates had been done before she ever introduced her self like an idiot, who then revealed herself in the middle of a DT war zone like an idiot who only escaped because Zeratul let her get away with killing Aldaris like an idiot, and because Aldaris was too much of an idiot to warn Zeratul until the very end.. How is any of that not worse than WoL? The fight with Aldaris followed by the "grand" reveal of Kerrigans so called manipulations struck me as a bad parody, and no amount of speculation and supposition that I saw on the forums made it any better. Nothing productive?
When I say nothing productive I don't mean that nothing happened. Stuff did happen, but it was all just temporary damage and all of the factions and characters end where they began. Auir was defeated in SCI, BW had nothing to do with it. Shakuras is invaded by two cerebrates who somehow managed to slip past Fenix and Raynor unnoticed. Or something. I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation, but the game didn't deliver one. But I digress again. Well, there was an invasion on Shakuras and they fixed it with a bitof grocery shopping which was used to power up a magic bullet to save the planet.
The UED may have been more effective than the Tal'Darim, but how does that justify focusing a campaign on them? They come from out of nowhere, and their singular focus is to make life harder for Kerrigan. It would actually be better if we were controlling the Tal'Darim and for them to do everything that the UED did. At least then we'd be familiar with them in SCII and that they're more relevant than some Terran group which exists only to be defeated and sent back home millions of light years away.
Honestly, you could remove a lot of the Broodwar campaign and it wouldn't mean much. Most of the long term character and plot development came in the final third of BW. It's where all of the damage that the UED had done had been undone. It's where all of the great tragedies and betrayals happened, and I didn't feel like that the UED and Shakuras chapters did enough to justify their existence when compared to SCI. In my opinion.
BW wasn't boring, but it was of little consequence in regards to plot and character development.
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On October 05 2010 12:34 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2010 12:20 mierin wrote:On October 05 2010 09:09 Mutaahh wrote:
Comparing a completed story, vs. an uncompleted one
is
a very hard discussion.
edit, yes I know, it has been said before. But I want to warn people so they wont waste their time on it ^^ It's not really that hard of a discussion. You paid how much for SC and BW? Probably as much for both as just WoL, even inflation included. Yet we got this story. They were both $60. WoL had less story overall but it was less rushed than the 3 in 1 style of the 90's and if you don't agree than consider what it offered in gameplay. I don't see a lot of people claiming that SCII was not worth $60.
Starcraft Battle Chest sells for as low as 15 USD. I got it back in 2000 for 20 USD. Please don't straight-up lie if you want to hold a constructive discussion. It really doesn't help anyone or accomplish anything.
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EPT
