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I think, that in sci-fi their should only be a minimal, most necessary amount of plot devices being used. That would be above light travel, alien species et al.
In the Starcraft universe we currently have:
- warp jumps
- genetic engineering
- cloaking devices
- psionic power
- telekinesis
- mind control
- mind melting
- prophecies (perfect forecasts with unknown origin)
- hallucinations
- truly immortal beings (preservers)
- resurrections
- immortal souls (Tassadar)
- some parallel sphere (void)
- some soul-like powerful being (dark voice)
- deus ex machinas, which send out energy waves, which can distinguish between different kinds of species.
A lot of this things are needed, to create a universe with a lot of epic dramas and action. But they forgot to draw the line at some point. They just went over-the-top with it, in my opinion.
According to the wikipedia article about plot devices: A contrived or arbitrary plot device may annoy or confuse the reader, causing a loss of the suspension of disbelief. However a well-crafted plot device, or one that emerges naturally from the setting or characters of the story, may be entirely accepted, or may even be unnoticed by the audience.
There are a lot of other well-written articles on wikipedia about this subject.
I wouldn't care if this is some pointless action rpg. But the singleplayer campaign really should tell a good, coherent, logical story.
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On October 04 2010 10:04 Billy_ wrote:
Why do people hate the idea of Tassadar returning when they don't even know what it means? Going into hypotheticals here, but wouldn't it be a pretty good plot twist if Tassadar and the Overmind somehow managed to merge into one form? They are opposites of a whole and Tassadar is one of the few Protoss who could wield both energies.
Absolutely not.
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I guarantee you Kerrigan will become infested again, and everyone will be like "OHHHH SHITTTTT" like when Kerrigan became human again. I swear they are gonna pull the lich king ending on Kerri.
For those of you who don't(didn't) play wow, basically when you kill the lich king, you get an ending cinematic, and in that, even though Arthas is dead, someone else had to take place of him as the new lich king to stop the undead from going apeshit on everything around them.
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The Hanson and Tosh missions felt like they were fillers, relating in no way to the storyline, whole thing was so bull.
The gameplay was all good, but the plot, god damn.
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10387 Posts
On October 03 2010 12:44 Hautamaki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2010 03:44 ghostunit wrote:
@Hautamaki: wrong. It's (not only) the lack of character development or meaningful events that has grieved and despaired us about the sequel's plot, but the fact that what does take place is all crap at best and insulting at worst.
Namely, and for example:
1.- The whole idea of Kerrigan being magically deinfested, "redeemed" and carried away into the sunset.
2.- The characters becoming caricatures of their former selves (Arcturus -> loud, predictable fool, Zeratul -> senile, wispy old man, Kerrigan -> emo chick with empty taunts and even emptier dialog).
3.- The introduction of new key plot elements that suck and are extremely lame, such as the prophecy, and the overmind/zerg being probably "good".
3.- The whole b-movie feel, instead of the gritty and serious (in a good way) theme of the original.
4.- The happy/cartoony theme to it, in which the heroes can't fail, have "main character powers" (Hyperion boarding Valerian's ship anyone?) and everything works out in the end.
With all this, there's no hope for the expansions to have a good plot. You just can't work around all the crap plot elements they introduced in WoL. Blizzard's lost its marbles and right now we're all in denial about it, but the sooner we accept it the better.
For example, wouldn't you tell your past self to save some money and avoid Star Wars Ep. 1/2/3 if you could? Yeah, few franchises have been ruined so hard as SW was, but Starcraft comes damn close. 1. I don't have a problem with Kerrigan being deinfested. It's a retribution storyline along the lines of Star Wars with Vader and I expect we'll see plenty of cool things going down with her in HOTS. It makes perfect sense that she's being positioned as a potential good guy leading into the zerg campaign. 2. I don't agree with that characterization at all, and furthermore you have to consider that this entire game was basically told in the first person from Jim Raynor's perspective. You see the characters how he sees them. 3. I'm not sure where you got this amazing gritty and serious feel from the first games; the style/sense of humor was basically the same, the only difference is that Blizzard had way more tools at their disposal in the second game. Maybe that meant you were able to fill in more blanks with your imagination and basically create your own experience with SC1 more, but honestly I greatly appreciated all the little touches Blizzard put in to draw the player in to their world. 4. I don't have a problem with hero characters being heroic either. I saw this entire game as mainly a character study of Jim Raynor, and of how, with a little help from an old friend and a lot of impetus from coming events, he picks himself up, dusts himself off, and goes back to his true calling, which is fucking up the evil plots of bad guys. Meanwhile, a greater force/new enemy is being introduced (obviously extremely similar to the Warcraft 3 storyline) and it turns out that unpleasant decisions will have to be made to fight this new enemy. Bottom line is that I had a blast playing through the campaign, the storyline was perfectly solid, and the way it was told was basically incomparable to SC1 which had nothing more than wall of text mission briefings and a few in-game lines of speech.
1. Why must she be redeemed? The fuck, I liked where it seemed to be going at the end of BW, where at some point Raynor would kill Kerrigan. The redemption/uninfestation was so out of the blue and stupid, it just totally killed the feel of SC2 for me.
2. You don't see it from Rayor's perspective, otherwise the game would be first person. I'm more than sure that Raynor doesnt view Zeratul as senile and old, Kerrigan as emo and certainly doesn't take Arcturus for a fool. Especially Mengsk, what the fuck happened to him? He's supposed to be extrememly cunning and dangerous, and yet in sc2..? He must've suffered from brain degeneration. And what happened to Kerrigan's QUEEN BITCH of the universe? And I do remember Zeratul having a much more extensive vocabulary
3. I liked the original's atmosphere much better. There was a lot of humor(Fenix in BW Zerg campaign was LOL), but at the same time everything felt so dark and serious.. compare SC to WoL (both are full games, don't pull the one episode bullshit) SC1 just had so many better/epic moments than WoL does. Compare the opening cinematic of WoL to BW's or SC1's..
4. You seriously didn't have a problem with how the fuck Raynor and Tychus was able to fight their way through an entire BC? Or the fact they were stupid enough to try to board a BC when they were outnumbered 3 to 1? Main characters doing heroic things are cool and all, but there is a certain threshold that SC2 crossed too many times.
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2. You don't see it from Rayor's perspective, otherwise the game would be first person. I'm more than sure that Raynor doesnt view Zeratul as senile and old, Kerrigan as emo and certainly doesn't take Arcturus for a fool. Especially Mengsk, what the fuck happened to him? He's supposed to be extrememly cunning and dangerous, and yet in sc2..? He must've suffered from brain degeneration. And what happened to Kerrigan's QUEEN BITCH of the universe? And I do remember Zeratul having a much more extensive vocabulary
Trololololol.
Perhaps I can put things into perpective for you.
Arcturus: You there boy (Jim), wait on my flagship so that I can deal with you later!
Kerrigan is Zerg rushed
Jim: FUCK YOU!
Arcturus: You're making a terrible mistake! Don't even think to cross me!
5 minutes later Jim walks out after blowing up the ion cannon from deep within enemy territory.
Brood War:
Arcturus: You backstabbing bitch, we had a deal!
Kerrigan: Lol, I payed you back for feeding me to the Zerg!
What do you think of your beloved emporer NOW? Most of the shit he got into in WoL could have been prevented from the very beginning of the SC series, and he was actually dumb enough to be surprised by Kerrigan. Sounds to me like Arcturus was always herping on the derp ever since we met him.
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Btw, did anyone notice the difference in the music when credits start rolling?
Starcraft 1: Tassadar has just blown up the overmind, sacrificing himself in the process. Credits have a quiet, almost ambient soundtrack.
Starcraft 2: Heroics, the sunset. BADASS GUITARS!!!!11 TERRANS OF TEH NIGHT!!!!111
It really felt bad listening to the SC2 song while you slowly start to realize that the ending really was there and no punchline is coming to somehow save the whole thing.
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On October 04 2010 10:04 Billy_ wrote:
Why do people hate the idea of Tassadar returning when they don't even know what it means? Going into hypotheticals here, but wouldn't it be a pretty good plot twist if Tassadar and the Overmind somehow managed to merge into one form? They are opposites of a whole and Tassadar is one of the few Protoss who could wield both energies.
Oh please no no no no no.
This seems to set SC on the very wrong path...
Reminds of the Heroes series, where at some point(3rd series) everything goes terribly wrong - time becomes a terrible mess, some heroes have powers beyond competition.
Now the only way to beat this mess is to create and idiot of both the super hero and the observer(= read the watcher/player).
Please don't go this way.
Less power more cunning, strategy tactics.
Educate players don't make them even more dumb.
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On October 04 2010 10:04 Billy_ wrote:
Why do people hate the idea of Tassadar returning when they don't even know what it means? Going into hypotheticals here, but wouldn't it be a pretty good plot twist if Tassadar and the Overmind somehow managed to merge into one form? They are opposites of a whole and Tassadar is one of the few Protoss who could wield both energies.
I'll do you one better!
If Jim Raynor could somehow wedge himself into that merge, they'd have created a super duper advanced hybrid capable of sustaining all three races at the same time! Just think of the energies...
One deus ex machina to rule them all!
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On August 01 2010 05:54 socal50 wrote:
to be fair, sc1+bw had a story that touched on all three races. here in sc2 so far, youve only got a third of the story
yeah, it's like comparing apples and oranges
sc1:bw should be compared to WoL + HotS + LotV
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On October 04 2010 14:46 Touch wrote:
The Hanson and Tosh missions felt like they were fillers, relating in no way to the storyline, whole thing was so bull.
The gameplay was all good, but the plot, god damn.
yeah, you can finish the game without playing a single hanson or tosh mission
these are side missions, since you need cash to improve your units, but you don't have to complete them in order to finish the game
achievements are another thing altogether
these missions also fit into the story, since Raynor is now a mercenary, doing contracts for anybody that will pay, and collecting stuff along the way
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On October 04 2010 18:05 LastWish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 10:04 Billy_ wrote:
Why do people hate the idea of Tassadar returning when they don't even know what it means? Going into hypotheticals here, but wouldn't it be a pretty good plot twist if Tassadar and the Overmind somehow managed to merge into one form? They are opposites of a whole and Tassadar is one of the few Protoss who could wield both energies. Oh please no no no no no. This seems to set SC on the very wrong path... Reminds of the Heroes series, where at some point(3rd series) everything goes terribly wrong - time becomes a terrible mess, some heroes have powers beyond competition. Now the only way to beat this mess is to create and idiot of both the super hero and the observer(= read the watcher/player). Please don't go this way. Less power more cunning, strategy tactics. Educate players don't make them even more dumb.
Yeah, it was just a quick hypothetical I thought of when I quickly read previous comments. But my point is that it's not really rational at this point to react negatively to Tassadar because first of all it would require us to jump to conclusions based on very weak conjecture. And I hear people complain that it trivialized his sacrifice of Broodwar. Well I felt that Tassadars image had already been damaged in BW when it was discovered that the overmind came back (with all of the character of the asteroid from that movie Armageddon) and when the Protoss chose to piss away all that Tassadar fought for by allying with Kerrigan. Nothing in WoL had undone the results of Tassadars martyrdom which brought the DT and the conclave closer together. But we can't all share the same opinions can we.
After the Zeratul missions I wouldn't be surprised if SCII did include some kind of duel between super saiyan Kerrigan and the BAMF from utter darkness. But why can't a story have it both ways? WH40K was packed full of super weapons and monsters, but I don't see why that had to equal dumbed down stories.
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On August 01 2010 10:41 Zato-1 wrote:SC + BW story summarized: + Show Spoiler [Story] +There are three races: Terran, Protoss and Zerg. Terrans are fighting between themselves, Zerg want to devour everything else, Protoss want to stop them.
On the Terran side, the Sons of Korhal, led by Arcturus Mengsk, overthrow the Confederacy and establish the Dominion. Later on, the United Earth Directorate overthrows the Dominion.
The Protoss kill Zerg Cerebrate Zasz, but lose their homeworld of Aiur. They then flee into the Dark Templar world of Shakuras, which is also being overrun, but they manage to cleanse it of the Zerg.
The Zerg take over a few planets and infest the Terran hero, Sarah Kerrigan. The Overmind is destroyed by Tassadar, and Kerrigan takes over the Zerg Swarm. She then proceeds to single-handedly tear through all possible opposition, annihilating the UED in the process and letting Mengsk rebuild his Dominion. There, all the storyline of SC and BW summarized in 11 lines. It really isn't that spectacular. It's not bad, mind you- I enjoyed it. It's just that the narrative in SC2 is incomparably better, because it's fleshed out a lot better.
What u do is totally like a guy who try to sum up movie in 5 seconds (check out some of his clips like Titanic in 5 seconds on utube). SC+BW plot really come with a lot of twist, drama like when kerrigan was left behind or kerrigan trick Admiral Duke to kill his loyal minion (forgot the guy name - kind of a russian one) or when Kerrigan control a protoss VIP (forgot the name as well) which Tassadar has to kill her in order to free her from Kerrigan control. Seriously, it feel more like a movie than SC2 plot which is quite straight forward. Anw, its quite unfair to SC2 since BW really add a great deal to the content of SC, so maybe just w8 and c what will happen with the next expansion before I can really confirm anything.
Finally, its suck to not be able to play Z in the campaign, wth, really SC+BW do a much better job than this
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Um.. don't you all think, that this poll is missing one option?
- It's not the whole story so I'll restrain myself from giving not relevant answer.
No? Oh, it's just me then.
A lot of you guys are comparing one terran only campaign to the whole story set in the entire universe in 6 previous parts.
Please remember, that the first 10 chapters of original starcraft was terran only too, not a whole lot of intergalactic battles.
Like someone here or there said earlier: this whole campaign will include two points:
1. Kerrigan planned it all (the deinfestation, too)
2. All of the races unite and battle one big scary evil.
Basically blizzard will pull the frozen throne ending.
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On October 04 2010 21:00 kudlaty_true wrote:
Um.. don't you all think, that this poll is missing one option?
- It's not the whole story so I'll restrain myself from giving not relevant answer.
No? Oh, it's just me then.
A lot of you guys are comparing one terran only campaign to the whole story set in the entire universe in 6 previous parts.
Please remember, that the first 10 chapters of original starcraft was terran only too, not a whole lot of intergalactic battles.
Like someone here or there said earlier: this whole campaign will include two points:
1. Kerrigan planned it all (the deinfestation, too)
2. All of the races unite and battle one big scary evil.
Basically blizzard will pull the frozen throne ending.
This point has been brought up many times and it's been thoroughly explained that this is an absolutely terrible excuse. This game was sold as a stand-alone game with as many mission as either SC or BW and took significantly longer to make with a much higher budget and a lot better resources/technology available. This makes your point a terrible excuse to try to justify a bad story.
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On October 04 2010 21:52 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2010 21:00 kudlaty_true wrote:
Um.. don't you all think, that this poll is missing one option?
- It's not the whole story so I'll restrain myself from giving not relevant answer.
No? Oh, it's just me then.
A lot of you guys are comparing one terran only campaign to the whole story set in the entire universe in 6 previous parts.
Please remember, that the first 10 chapters of original starcraft was terran only too, not a whole lot of intergalactic battles.
Like someone here or there said earlier: this whole campaign will include two points:
1. Kerrigan planned it all (the deinfestation, too)
2. All of the races unite and battle one big scary evil.
Basically blizzard will pull the frozen throne ending. This point has been brought up many times and it's been thoroughly explained that this is an absolutely terrible excuse. This game was sold as a stand-alone game with as many mission as either SC or BW and took significantly longer to make with a much higher budget and a lot better resources/technology available. This makes your point a terrible excuse to try to justify a bad story.
It's better than the Dark Templar campaign of Brood War. Most stories require some kind of plot and/or character progression. The DT campaign had none of this. I don't think many people would have considered WoL acceptable if it were so inconseqential and poorly plotted.
And before you ask, yes, the broadcast, Valarians appearance and the Char missions were all more relevant and eventful than that one chapter. And probably the entirety of Brood War if the games installation recap is any sign of relevence. Even the plot device of the artifacts show more promise than the temple did.
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maybe the xel'naga will be a fourth playable race !!!!!!
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How is this even comparable? SCI plot was overwhelmingly better. You don't even have to factor in the either of the protoss or zerg campaigns. The two Terran campaigns alone from SC/BW absolutely own WoL.
SCI:
- Raynor narrowly escapes the zerg and eventually unites with Mengsk's faction to topple an oppressive government. Ultimately establishing a new tyrant and losing a friend (or so he thinks!). This campaign ends with the ominous ascent of Mengsk.
- Despite facing total annihilation from two other alien species, the Terrans still find time to destroy each other.
- Objectives were direct and strategic; every mission made me feel like I was advancing the plot towards a purpose.
BW:
- Even better this time. We are introduced to a totally new Terran faction, from Earth no less. Right off the bat, we have two strict goals: 1) Topple Mengsk and execute him 2) Subjugate the Overmind and the Zerg. Fuck Yes, let's go in and dominate everything!
- Again, every mission has a distinct reason to it that yields us a rigidly structured story. Destroy nukes or battlecruiser fleet -> weaken military capabilities. Capture another battlecruiser fleet -> strengthen own military capabilities.
- Plot Twists? Sure, Duran is seemingly infested and works for Kerrigan, while Mengsk has escaped. The Overmind is yours, but there still lingers the ominous presence of Kerrigan. Can't wait to play the zerg campaign.
WoL:
- I'm apparently gathering artifacts, for money I guess. All we know is Tychus works for an organization that wants them for most of the story...k. Not only is this like a boring fetch quest, but in terms of plot it's always the same. Go get artifact -> stupid protoss tribe opposes you because the campaign has to have you fight toss somehow.
- Dr. Hanson and Tosh mean nothing but take up a lot of the story. Hanson either dies or leaves without apparently discovering her lolcure to zerg infestation. Tosh either dies or simply joins your cause with his team, a pretty bland resolution considering all you do for the guy.
- ....the overmind is good (way to shit all over the original), Tassadar is now a ghost, there's now a prophecy (ewww), and some mysterious antagonist wants to rule the universe and leave everything in total darkness -_-;;. None of this carries much weight, however, due to the fact that the missions are optional and Raynor refers to them as if they were some odd dream after a hangover.
- The rebellion against Mengsk doesn't accomplish very much.
- The actual objective that carries any real significance is poorly tacked on only at the end of the story, with little build up. Deus Ex Machina ending with a mystical artifact that destroys all nearby zerg but conveniently reverts Kerrigan to human. Tychus dies revealing his retarded mission in the process (except we already kinda know from the beginning...).
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How is this even comparable? SCI plot was overwhelmingly better. You don't even have to factor in the either of the protoss or zerg campaigns. The two Terran campaigns alone from SC/BW absolutely own WoL.
I absolutely could not have worded it better myself. 100% agree.
Don't forget about the dialogue either.
"You speak of knowledge, Judicator? You speak of experience? I have journeyed through the darkness between the most distant stars. I have beheld the births of negative-suns and borne witness to the entropy of entire realities... Unto my experience, Aldaris, all that you've built here on Aiur is but a fleeting dream. A dream from which your precious Conclave shall awaken, finding themselves drowned in a greater nightmare."
To
"TIME IS SHORT! THE ARTIFACTS ARE THE KEY!"
And what about badass levels? They went down 9000 notches.
Marine:
Sir, we've 86'ed this cerebrate. We shouldn't have any more problems with those sunken colonies
Sir, this cerebrate's been whacked. We shouldn't run into any smacked up ultralisks anytime soon.
Let's wax these critters!
That's called badass.
Not, "HALP, WE'RE SURROUNDED BY ZERG AND ARE GUNNA DIE"
A real report would be: Sir, we've just had a whole cargo ship full of whoopass dumped on us. We ran into a new strain of Ultralisk, and it took a lotta pepper to bring it down. To top it all off, recon reports the critter's been reincarnated by a nearby cerebrate, and it's on its way back for more!
Or "Sir, these sunken colonies aren't being affected by anything we hit'em with. I bet there's one'a them cerebrate critters pumpin em full of energy nearby."
All the quotes from SC1 were SO memorable. SC2 just shit all over the dialogue.
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