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United States22883 Posts
On October 13 2010 08:38 ibreakurface wrote:
SC2 > BW
BW is pretty straight forward imo, I don't see how you guys can say it was SO DEEP and IMMERSIVE. It's another simple alien vs alien vs human with a little civil war on the side.
What? There's far more deception and intricacy in BW than SC2. There's 3.5 sides in WoL (only 2 of which are playable) while SC/BW had over 6. Some parts of the story and dialogue in SC/BW are pretty bad (especially the Protoss stuff) but the story was a lot less straight forward. The only reason SC2 has "twists" is because the lore team seems to be making them up as they go.
I mean, Mensk actually starts as a likable character, and the position of Kerrigan/Duke/Tassadar/etc. is all over the place. Besides Tosh, I didn't find any of the characters very surprising or compelling.
Maybe it's a common theme that all Protoss campaigns are terrible. To me it feels like SC/BW was science fiction, while WoL is fantasy. It's all about faith and magical benefits.
Also, the Raynor-Kerrigan connection still bothers me. Sure, they're nice together for about 10 missions but that's it. Then he becomes washed up and loses his edge because she's gone? It's a pretty sloppily put together romance, imo.
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United States22883 Posts
On October 13 2010 10:34 Billy_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 03:39 Madkipz wrote:On October 13 2010 00:50 Billy_ wrote:On October 12 2010 23:51 MichaelJLowell wrote:
Here's the difference: Every piece of plot in Starcraft and Brood War moved the story forward. . If this were true than why was the protoss campaign of BW such a train wreck? It wasn't even consistent with the established characters of SCI, unless you thought they were all naive idiots back then. And Kerrigan had one of the most forced and awkwardly written manipulations in gaming history. And the UED weren't even established characters and for some reason they're brought in just to be taken out. What about the new overmind? The whole point of the UED campaign was to defeat Arcturus and capture the overmind. That would be like controlling the fucking Tal'Darim the middle of the SCII minicampaign prelude, just so that we could take the artifacts for the second time as Jim . If you can't find any problems with BW then you've clearly got your head up your ass and are incapable of sharing an objective opinion. well to be fair the UED does bring about the existence of an earth like planet and the faction can be brought up on multiple occasions should the writer intend to do so in similar fashion to the taldarim. Its not bad writing, its good writing. You might not like it but atleast it gives them a terran alternative to the dominion for a set of missions should they choose to do so. Basically its stuff within the context of the universe, Alien artefacts, and prophecies and destroy everything living hybrid badguys feel ALOT worse writing and game wise than kerrigans mindcontrolling the dark templar matriarch. A lot of things in BW had amazing potential. I generally like to think that nearly anything can make for a good story if the story telling is well done, and I find that BW didn't live up to its potential. The UED were a decent concept, but the executuion failed. They existed merely to push the plot along. Just like the Tal'darim of WoL, except without killing them all in the end. And I;m well aware of WoLs failings, but they aren't anywhere near as understated as Broodwars.
But the UED get the best cinematic in the series. 
Plus, Stukov and Duran still have a large role in the official story (even if Blizzard chooses to ignore them.)
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Jibba... I hope you aren't implying that the SC1 Protoss campaign is bad.
If you are I might have to use my powers of telepathy to slap you through the internet.
And... I'm having difficulty understanding how Raynor got so obsessed with Kerrigan too. Sure, the thing at Tarsonis where he finds out that Arcturus is just as bad as the confederacy would have been a real kick in the balls. And losing Sarah who at the very least Jim was protective of and friendly towards. And Kerrigan spareed Jims life even when she at her most evil during BW, so that must have meant something to him.
But I think WoL could have done more on it's own end. Maybe indicate that Kerrigan had maintained a psionic link with Jim through the years which was the cause of the recurring nightmares he kept having. Something like what was read about in the queen of blades novel.
The way I see it was pretty much just a crush, and then it sort of inflated after the tragedy and Jim spent a lot of time mentally thinking about "what might have been if Mengsk wasnt an a-hole scenarios.
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United States22883 Posts
On October 13 2010 13:21 Billy_ wrote:
Jibba... I hope you aren't implying that the SC1 Protoss campaign is bad.
If you are I might have to use my powers of telepathy to slap you through the internet. The dark energy & light energy stuff was stupid, especially the idea that only Dark Templars can kill cerebrates. I'm getting mixed up whether it was SC or BW. Looking back through the campaigns now, and I think the SC1 story deserves some credit. The Conclave is way more interesting than the DTs. I think the only part of the BW P story I liked was Kerrigan taking control of Razsagal.
I didn't post in that other thread about the Taldarim, but it seems to me that all Protoss are fanatics, hence the zealots and templar.
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On October 13 2010 14:18 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 13:21 Billy_ wrote:
Jibba... I hope you aren't implying that the SC1 Protoss campaign is bad.
If you are I might have to use my powers of telepathy to slap you through the internet. The dark energy & light energy stuff was stupid, especially the idea that only Dark Templars can kill cerebrates. I'm getting mixed up whether it was SC or BW. Looking back through the campaigns now, and I think the SC1 story deserves some credit. The Conclave is way more interesting than the DTs. I think the only part of the BW P story I liked was Kerrigan taking control of Razsagal. I didn't post in that other thread about the Taldarim, but it seems to me that all Protoss are fanatics, hence the zealots and templar.
Yeah, I hear you and totally agree, but that light and dark stuff originated from the overminds talk about the temple and crystals and assassination of zasz. The protoss were just a natural follow up and was pertinent to the character development of the conclave and the DT .
I liked the protoss campaign for the conflict, civil war and the way that Aldaris and Tassadar grew as characters. I hated the second one, because it neglected to follow up on the cultural developments, portrayed Razagal as not all that different from Aldaris when we first met him (unless you assume that Kerrigan had full control of Razagals speech) and gave us some bullshit which barely connected to the main plot which only truly began 2/3 of the way through BW. Oh well. DT could have been interesting and distinctive but BW sort of missed the mark.
I'm not going to say that I disliked BW. I actually enjoyed it, but it was really lacking in the heart that made SC1. The original was more than just a batte for supremacy, but that was pretty much the whole of BW. There was no corruption, no civil war, no terrorist hero betrayed by asshole terrorist leader who at first seemed like a decent guy. It was just a straight up good vs evil brawl against an enemy which was barely had any development before been wiped out. It doesn't measure up very well to the amounts of character and faction development of SCI.
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On October 13 2010 14:18 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2010 13:21 Billy_ wrote:
Jibba... I hope you aren't implying that the SC1 Protoss campaign is bad.
If you are I might have to use my powers of telepathy to slap you through the internet. The dark energy & light energy stuff was stupid, especially the idea that only Dark Templars can kill cerebrates. I'm getting mixed up whether it was SC or BW. Looking back through the campaigns now, and I think the SC1 story deserves some credit. The Conclave is way more interesting than the DTs. I think the only part of the BW P story I liked was Kerrigan taking control of Razsagal. I didn't post in that other thread about the Taldarim, but it seems to me that all Protoss are fanatics, hence the zealots and templar.
I actually really liked the whole light and dark energy idea, it seemed to fit very well into the story for me. Not to mention there is such a thing as dark energy in real life too! COINCIDENCE?! 
wow that smiley is making me dizzy
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On October 11 2010 16:35 Billy_ wrote:
How old are you?
Think I know the one you're talking about, and it;s mostly nit picking and presumption.
But hey, fanboys will be fanboys. Shouldn't expect them to not be full of shit. For example, half the time a popular game get's a score lower than 9,3 at Gametrailers, or the shitstorm that Dantes new look caused.
I ain't saying that Andrew is completely wrong, just that I either
A. Don't give a shit about his trivial problems, or
B. realise that the thing with the overmind may or may not have been a good idea, (depends on where the expansions go with it) but that there are people who are simply anti-retcon, anti-change, anti-whatever-it-is-that-they-do-not-want, and are inconsolable that the overmind has more depth to it than an urge to eat some protoss.
Yeah man, just look at his silly nit picking of various tiny, trivial matters like the entirety of Brood War being treated as non-canon or the shoehorning-in of random, enormous, inexplicable plot devices like, I don't know, a prophecy that foretold all of the events in the entire first game and its expansion. Who cares about his trivial problems with the plot like the gargantuan retconning of previously well-established characters like... oh for example, just the Overmind and Kerrigan, the two main villains in the first game. Clearly he's just an angry fanboy blowing tiny misteps out of proportion and he needs to adapt to change, because the WoL campaign was fantastic.
...But seriously, the WoL campaign (and I loved the campaign from a gameplay perspective and think it's probably the best campaign of any RTS I've played, in competition with maybe just DoW2's) was a jumbled, incoherent mess. Critical, well-established plot points from the first game were retconned into oblivion or just ignored entirely, various character-defining moments have now been trivialized into non-canon territory in favor of new, exciting plot arcs like "OH MAN IT TURNS OUT, HE WAS IN LOVE WITH HER ALL THIS TIME AND HE BROKE DOWN AFTER ALL THAT AND LOOK MAN HE EVEN KEEPS A PHOTO AROUND WITH HIM AT ALL TIMES THAT'S JUST DEVOTION DUDE". I mean, this is like Twilight-level writing here and it's an insult to everyone that enjoyed the vastly superior writing of SC-BW.
Whether it's Activision taking a heavier hand in marketing the franchise to a wider audience, or just a matter of too many team members leaving Blizzard, something has changed and while I enjoyed the campaign immensely, for every one moment of true brilliance there were probably five narmtastic moments (like the endless parade of Michael Bay lines culminating in probably the most laughable epic war moment speech ever) and whether you think WoL was just the setup to a grand, franchise-spanning mytharc or this was a deliberate move to distance the plot from SC-BW and start anew, there's no excuse for just how mouth-droppingly awful it was, and while I can see children and people who've never played SC-BW thinking it's great, I weep for all who have never enjoyed the plot of SC-BW and don't even know what they've missed and now spend time debating over the motives of our new spectacular villain, the brilliantly-named DARK VOICE!
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You know what BW and SCI had that SCII did not? A middle and and ending. You know what else SCII had that BW didn't? A beginning which actually props up the main story unlike the hollow protoss campaign of BW which only serves a function when we find out about Kerrigan and Razagal but was already heaviliy implied. So technically it's already better than BW, because the plot is actually going somewhere as opposed to nowhere which is superior unless you subjectively disagree.
"You're infested. you're dead already"
If Raynor wanted to kill Kerrigan then people would complain that Blizzard retconned SCI where Jim shows more than professional interest and then rushes off to Char to try and take her back from the Zerg. Blizzard can't win. He never liked infested Kerrigan in BW, never liked her in WoL either.
The overmind wasn't retconned because it didn't specifically state what it wanted from Auir. It just said that it wanted to be "perfect". Nothing about assimulation, or evolution. In this case, "perfect" meant freedomd from the overiding directive in the hands of Kerrigan.
And what plot points were ignored entirely? Fenix? How would that go?
Jim: Fenix!
Matt: o_O You okay sir
Jim: What, don't you guys remember him dying on Korhal?
Matt: No
Tychus: No
Egon: No
Rory: No
Hill: No
Hansen: No
Tosh: No.
Jim: Oh, okay then. Lets go rob some trains!
What else happenes in BW that you thought was pertinent to WoL? The way that the UED came, saw and got annhilated after controlling the overmind with their pharmaceutical compainies?
The destruction of the psi disruptor?
What did you want from BW?
You're confusing some retcons with explanations you didn't like. This also applies to a lot of the nitpicks in that US forum. Some of them aren't even nitpicks, but bad reading comprehension. Zeratul seeing the hybrids of BW DID happen, Duran goes I am "a" servant of "a" higher power, implying more than one. Maybe Zeratul has been on the hunt for the past few years and met other servants? In WoL Zeratul clearly recognises the Hybrids because his reaction is "abomination!". If he was confused his reaction would be "o_O lol wat. Like I said, bad comprehension.
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EPT
