EPT2022 - 2023 Football Thread - Page 139
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Hildegard
Germany306 Posts
On June 23 2023 02:49 Pandemona wrote: What hidden sponsorship? They do not own a single piece of Chelsea and never will? The Saudis have some money in the investment company clearlake capital which is a $60 billion investment fund that has a majority stake in Chelsea, so if that is us being owned by Saudis then i have no defense lol. In terms of those players, like i said Ziyech was off to PSG, Khoulabily had an offer from Inter, Kante would have stayed with us and Mendy again he had offers in Italy and France. Now of course your right on them having bigger offers in terms of wages, for sure and im very happy Kante gets this opportunity because he deserves it! But that isn't anything to do with us, that is unfair! I don't mind being hated when it justified but we have USA backed consortium money now and before that we had Roman Abramovich, who until Russia invaded Ukraine was not a problem, but them became a problem.... You are right, and I was wrong. It seems like I have prejudices against Saudi Arabia, and I let them cloud my judgment. Still, unless something major happens, I will root for neither Chelsea nor Saudi Arabia. My preference is the Spanish or German model: clubs without investors owning 50% or more of a club (Germany) or any investors at all (Spain). | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
But seems to me like the EPL adopts a more laissez-faire capitalistic model, whilst the Bundesliga and La Liga adopt a more regulated socialistic model. And yet, it's the EPL that arguably produces more competition and less monopolistic dominance. Put aside the question of financial regularities and human rights, one has to admit that the rise of Man City and Newcastle has provided more excitement. Whilst Spain and Germany still have the traditional juggernauts (Real, Barca, Bayern, Dortmund) dominating despite their league model (presumably) aimed at producing more egalitarian competitiveness. This, I'm sure, is a rather hot button topic. No doubt someone may even challenge the premise. But I'm really curious to hear more thoughts on this, and hear about examples beyond the major leagues (seems like even minor European leagues suffer from dominance?). | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8656 Posts
On June 23 2023 18:33 Pandemona wrote: They changed because of the red bull model now as both Salzburg and Leipzig were able to compete in the champs league a couple seasons ago. I am all for that rule though, don't like this multiple club model. Chelsea owners just bought Strasburg and are about to do a deal to buy Rio Ave in Portugal as well. what changed? they changed the same competition rule? i thought salzburg and leipzig were allowed to play because rb demonstrated that both clubs were managed by completely different personnel and were therefore "independent" of each other On June 24 2023 12:51 RKC wrote: I'm not an expert of economics or know enough of the intricacies of club football business models and FPP regulations. But seems to me like the EPL adopts a more laissez-faire capitalistic model, whilst the Bundesliga and La Liga adopt a more regulated socialistic model. And yet, it's the EPL that arguably produces more competition and less monopolistic dominance. Put aside the question of financial regularities and human rights, one has to admit that the rise of Man City and Newcastle has provided more excitement. Whilst Spain and Germany still have the traditional juggernauts (Real, Barca, Bayern, Dortmund) dominating despite their league model (presumably) aimed at producing more egalitarian competitiveness. This, I'm sure, is a rather hot button topic. No doubt someone may even challenge the premise. But I'm really curious to hear more thoughts on this, and hear about examples beyond the major leagues (seems like even minor European leagues suffer from dominance?). in an ideal world, the epl model would be better regulated and there would be reasonable limits on how much could be invested into the club. if this was the case, id prefer the epl model because it is the only model that really allows for a leicester type cinderella story. unfortunately as it is now, with the complete inability to enforce ffp and have a better framework around investments and even state ownership, my preference is the bundesliga model. | ||
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Hildegard
Germany306 Posts
On June 24 2023 13:43 evilfatsh1t wrote: what changed? they changed the same competition rule? i thought salzburg and leipzig were allowed to play because rb demonstrated that both clubs were managed by completely different personnel and were therefore "independent" of each other in an ideal world, the epl model would be better regulated and there would be reasonable limits on how much could be invested into the club. if this was the case, id prefer the epl model because it is the only model that really allows for a leicester type cinderella story. unfortunately as it is now, with the complete inability to enforce ffp and have a better framework around investments and even state ownership, my preference is the bundesliga model. Actually, last season looked for a long time like a Cinderella story was about to happen. Union Berlin and Freiburg were at the top of the table. Additionally, Frankfurt reached the cup final; Freiburg did so last year; and neither Bayern nor Dortmund reached the final for two seasons in a row. Leverkusen has done pretty well since Xabi Alonso took over. And of course, there is Leipzig, who defended their cup victory. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On June 24 2023 14:24 Hildegard wrote: Actually, last season looked for a long time like a Cinderella story was about to happen. Union Berlin and Freiburg were at the top of the table. Additionally, Frankfurt reached the cup final; Freiburg did so last year; and neither Bayern nor Dortmund reached the final for two seasons in a row. Leverkusen has done pretty well since Xabi Alonso took over. And of course, there is Leipzig, who defended their cup victory. This Bundesliga season was quite a thriller. But in the end, the fact is that the top dog Bayern still retained the league trophy for 11th seasons in a row despite being a mess and in a state of 'rebuilding'. This wouldn't happen in the EPL. Any top team tripping over their shoelaces for a season (like Liverpool and Chelsea) will drop through the standings like a lead anchor. I watched a few Bundesliga games this season, especially Union Berlin, Freiburg, Leverkusen and Lepizig. I was initially expecting for a Cinderella run. But after watching their inconsistent performance, let's be honest, there were only going to be two contenders for the title - Bayern and Dortmund. Just like how the EPL title this season was always going to be between Man Cify and Arsenal despite Man Utd and Newcastle hanging around not too far behind and putting in good runs. I would say that over the years, even La Liga is more exciting than Bundesliga. Athletico Madrid are real title contenders, and Sevilla is consistently performing in Top 4. And there's the ocassinal Cinderella underdogs like Sociedad and Bilbao. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17995 Posts
On June 24 2023 15:30 RKC wrote: This Bundesliga season was quite a thriller. But in the end, the fact is that the top dog Bayern still retained the league trophy for 11th seasons in a row despite being a mess and in a state 'rebukiding'. This wouldn't happen in the EPL. Any top team tripping over their shoelaces for a season (like Liverpool and Chelsea) will drop through the standings like a lead anchor. I watched a few Bundesliga games this season, especially Union Berlin, Freiburg, Leverkusen and Lepizig. I was initially expecting for a Cinderella run. But after watching their inconsistent performance, let's be honest, there were only going to be two contenders for the title - Bayern and Dortmund. Just like how the EPL title this season was always going to be between Man Cify and Arsenal despite Man Utd and Newcastle hanging around not too far behind and putting in good runs. I would say that over the years, even La Liga is more exciting than Bundesliga. Athletico Madrid are real title contenders, and Sevilla is consistently performing in Top 4. And there's the ocassinal Cinderella underdogs like Sociedad and Bilbao. Despite winning the Europa League, Sevilla was rather close to degradation in La Liga this season. They were appalling for the first half of the season and slightly better the second (which saved their asses). Sevilla is a fun club, but far from consistent. Valencia looked like a legitimate contender for a while, but they had appalling mismanagement. If anything is a theme in La Liga, in fact, it's mismanagement! | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51486 Posts
On June 24 2023 10:50 Hildegard wrote: You are right, and I was wrong. It seems like I have prejudices against Saudi Arabia, and I let them cloud my judgment. Still, unless something major happens, I will root for neither Chelsea nor Saudi Arabia. My preference is the Spanish or German model: clubs without investors owning 50% or more of a club (Germany) or any investors at all (Spain). I respect that mindset of yours i do, but literally the two leagues you just mentioned struggle because of that reasoning which is sad imo. Now it is by far the best model and the way it should be, but outside of Bayern, Real Madrid, Barcelona and maybe Atletico Madrid, the other 34 teams of those top leagues are all feeder clubs? The way football is now is this way which is sad. I just hope a salary cap comes in, that imo is the only way to save the game, but also the issue with that is european union laws do not allow you to do it lol | ||
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
different way of money but the same amount of money at the end for the players. team salary cap is unfair because of UCL money rewarding. The financial difference between 4th and 5th in your league is day and night. but the financial difference between 1st and 4th is close to zero. That is the first step... The financial difference you are out of top16 or top8 is very big aswell (over 10m€ difference for each round!). | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51486 Posts
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sharkie
Austria18412 Posts
On June 24 2023 06:15 KobraKay wrote: your quote is at most a shot at MLS, nothing to do with Messi and none of the values listed by Pande are above market prices. Chelsea's problem wasn't generating money from transfers, it was getting rid of high-wage players. Which they did thanks to Saudi Arabia, no other club would have offered those players the wage Chelsea was giving them | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51486 Posts
Ziyech was on 100k a week Kante was on 290k a week Khoulabily was on 295k a week So yes i guess two of those players (1 of which his contract was up in Kante) are on a lot of wages, but t he others are clearly not. https://www.spotrac.com/epl/chelsea-fc/payroll/ | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On June 24 2023 18:50 Dingodile wrote: player salary cap is nice bit it wont help. scenario just changes. From 25m salary (club) + 25m additional income (nike and audi for example) to 10m salary and 40m add income. club sends 15m "missing" salary to nike and nike moves that money to the player. different way of money but the same amount of money at the end for the players. team salary cap is unfair because of UCL money rewarding. The financial difference between 4th and 5th in your league is day and night. but the financial difference between 1st and 4th is close to zero. That is the first step... The financial difference you are out of top16 and top8 is very big aswell (over 10m€ difference for each round!). I feel that somehow salary cap, no matter how well-intentioned, will produce even more inequitable outcomes. Top teams will always find ways to abuse and game the system. Prime example is Chelsea's long term contracts getting round FPP. What a joke. I don't know American sports enough too judge how well their model works. I know baseball even less. But I watched Moneyball (what a fantastic movie!) and found the ending so bittersweet. So Oakland went on a Cinderella run with Billy Beane's data analytics approach... only to fail anyway and what's worse, Boston Red Sox jumps on the analytics bandwagon and win the World Series two years later. At the end of the day, money matters. | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51486 Posts
Giving these big long contracts helps put the transfer fee over that term for accounting, but then if you stuck with that player in your squad and cant get rid of him in 2-3 years time then its no help at all is it? There is a reason no other club has done this before lol, it isn't "smart" in reality because if the player is bad you are stuck with him for a very long time, paying him good wages which means its harder to move him out. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13938 Posts
On June 24 2023 21:25 Pandemona wrote: The contract thing on paper is getting around FFP but also how is it good? We signed Mudrk on 7 year deal and he looks at the moment meh at best? Has potential for sure but right now looks like a huge waste of money. We gave Kepa a 7 year deal back in 2015? He has been one of the worst keepers up until last season when he got some decent'ish numbers. Giving these big long contracts helps put the transfer fee over that term for accounting, but then if you stuck with that player in your squad and cant get rid of him in 2-3 years time then its no help at all is it? There is a reason no other club has done this before lol, it isn't "smart" in reality because if the player is bad you are stuck with him for a very long time, paying him good wages which means its harder to move him out. The biggest benefit to spreading out the contract like this, and possibly backending the wages, is through the expectation that income for the club will outpace the increase in the wage and will in the long term make the transfer cost lower relatively. The amount a super fast winger like mudrk will command will only ever go up. Meanwhile we know the money gained through TV deals, and matchday revenues will always go up. Nothing in sports is without risk but spreading the penalty if the transfer is a bust long term can only protect you more. If they're bad for 5 years and then turn good you risk them having left after 3 years when it didn't work out. Kepa being a backup goalie for so long still covers the critical spot of having a backup keeper for all that time. Depth is expensive and even more risky than buying starters. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6213 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8656 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4353 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25392 Posts
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