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On September 12 2018 01:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
that might be how people cheering for top teams from the top 4 leagues feel. Myself I care more about tuning in for thursday matches than tuesday-wednesday matches now, because that's when Rosenborg plays. And there's a lot of money in the EL compared to how it used to be - simply qualifying for it now ends up doubling our yearly budget. I think it's great the way it is personally and see no reason to add another league.
To me, the alternative would be having some type of policies to break down the powerhouse teams so teams from Norway could hope to qualify for the CL again, or to have teams like Ajax be able to win the CL, but I don't think that's gonna happen. The EL gives the best teams from smaller leagues something legit to compete for, and that's important.
Yeah, I understand that if you support a smaller team, you want to see them play this kind of games even if it's not the top level. The problem I have with the EL is that we disguise it as a trophy that's almost more important than winning a league (I'm sure it'd be more important for Rosenborg!). But in reality, it's like finishing first in your country's second league. You should be happy for the promotion and what you accomplished this year, but that's it.
Imo, the EL should be in a league format, or have a lot more teams split into different brackets and the winner of each one would qualify for the CL, like 8. That gives you a lot of European matches to play, and more chance to qualify for the top league. Instead of rewarding just one team, that's usually an ex CL team...
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On September 12 2018 10:42 WillyWanker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2018 01:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
that might be how people cheering for top teams from the top 4 leagues feel. Myself I care more about tuning in for thursday matches than tuesday-wednesday matches now, because that's when Rosenborg plays. And there's a lot of money in the EL compared to how it used to be - simply qualifying for it now ends up doubling our yearly budget. I think it's great the way it is personally and see no reason to add another league.
To me, the alternative would be having some type of policies to break down the powerhouse teams so teams from Norway could hope to qualify for the CL again, or to have teams like Ajax be able to win the CL, but I don't think that's gonna happen. The EL gives the best teams from smaller leagues something legit to compete for, and that's important. Yeah, I understand that if you support a smaller team, you want to see them play this kind of games even if it's not the top level. The problem I have with the EL is that we disguise it as a trophy that's almost more important than winning a league (I'm sure it'd be more important for Rosenborg!). But in reality, it's like finishing first in your country's second league. You should be happy for the promotion and what you accomplished this year, but that's it. Imo, the EL should be in a league format, or have a lot more teams split into different brackets and the winner of each one would qualify for the CL, like 8. That gives you a lot of European matches to play, and more chance to qualify for the top league. Instead of rewarding just one team, that's usually an ex CL team...
Different perspectives. For France, maybe it is like winning a second league. For Bulgaria it's like winning the CL itself and definitely more important than the domestic league. Just qualifying for the group stage completely changes the season(and the budget) of our champion.
What I don't like about EL is that teams from the CL are allowed play in it after they are eliminated in the group stage. This for me gives the vibe of consolation prize and "lower bracket".
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Norway28695 Posts
yeah I'd support the removal of CL third place group stage teams from the EL. But I think it's important to have an actual stand-alone competition for the second tier teams, one that isn't 'just' a CL qualification.
Like in Sweden, IFK Gothenburg winning the Uefa cup back in 1982 and 1987 was a big enough deal for me as a Norwegian born in 1984 to know about it happening, even though it was a second tier competition. (to be fair that was when the CL was only 1 team from each country, so you can definitely make the argument that it was more prestigious. ) But like, the Norwegian team Sarpsborg 08 managed to qualify this season, and it's considered the biggest event in the history of the club. For Rosenborg, qualification for the EL is currently what defines a successful season (not winning the domestic league, and the CL is considered largely out of reach).
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German training is going to save the USNMT one day, we need to keep sending our young talent over there to be trained.
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On September 12 2018 10:42 WillyWanker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2018 01:11 Liquid`Drone wrote:
that might be how people cheering for top teams from the top 4 leagues feel. Myself I care more about tuning in for thursday matches than tuesday-wednesday matches now, because that's when Rosenborg plays. And there's a lot of money in the EL compared to how it used to be - simply qualifying for it now ends up doubling our yearly budget. I think it's great the way it is personally and see no reason to add another league.
To me, the alternative would be having some type of policies to break down the powerhouse teams so teams from Norway could hope to qualify for the CL again, or to have teams like Ajax be able to win the CL, but I don't think that's gonna happen. The EL gives the best teams from smaller leagues something legit to compete for, and that's important. Yeah, I understand that if you support a smaller team, you want to see them play this kind of games even if it's not the top level. The problem I have with the EL is that we disguise it as a trophy that's almost more important than winning a league (I'm sure it'd be more important for Rosenborg!). But in reality, it's like finishing first in your country's second league. You should be happy for the promotion and what you accomplished this year, but that's it. Imo, the EL should be in a league format, or have a lot more teams split into different brackets and the winner of each one would qualify for the CL, like 8. That gives you a lot of European matches to play, and more chance to qualify for the top league. Instead of rewarding just one team, that's usually an ex CL team...
In many countries winning euro league would be more important than a league title and deservedly so... (probably anything below france in uefa coefficient) and what is wrong with that?
You get way more money winning euro league plus cl qualification than winning a countrys second league... Woth france, spain and england the only eyceptions prolly
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I mean, I'm using an example that's a bit extreme but... A handicapped athlete winning his category's Olympics is going to feel like a king. But it doesn't make him one. In the end, we're adding 'fake' competitions for smaller teams so that they can enjoy feeling like they're playing a European cup. We could add 10 more cups so that I can also play a European cup with my local club that's not even the best in my tiny neighborhood.
Organize leagues so smaller teams that do things right can reach the top level, that's good. We already have so much football to watch nowadays, I can guarantee there's going to be almost no viewers for that 3rd cup. No big channel in their right mind would invest a lot of money in this event. How many of you watch all the games in your own national league? How about the EL groupstage, apart from your own team? I don't mind the odd CSGO or Dota minor tournament final but I won't watch all those games. If you do, you're a real fan and you're the 0.1%.
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The thing is that everyone of those smaller teams that would play in that 3rd cup has their own group of fans who would most definitely watch those games, so I don't see there being any trouble getting enough viewers.
You are just seeing this from the perspective of a World Cup winner country, we from smaller football countries don't see it like that.
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Ha yeah sure, I'm the arrogant French now. I didn't even support them, don't even live there, barely follow the French league. French league that, mind you, barely has any European titles. I'd love to see a French club win even the EL. But apart from some rare exceptions, they don't care about playing it seriously because finishing 6th in the league is more important to them (so they can go to the EL, get the money, and not care again).
Napoli didn't even play the CL seriously last season. Italian teams in general don't care about the EL, neither do English teams. So yeah, we're left with smaller teams battling for a 2nd division cup, against bigger teams that don't even care about it.
Professional sports is about competition. Beating the best. Apart from those small teams hardcore fans (that aren't as many as you think), no one cares. Alright I'm an elitist about that, I don't watch women sports (Serena Williams getting destroyed by a guy ranked 300th without breaking a sweat), and I don't watch French or Spanish second league. And 99% of the football followers (not hardcore fans) are like that. I don't want UEFA to think about adding more teams, I don't want a Euro with 24 teams (funny how people bitched about that last Euro being boring, I wonder why it was), I don't want a World Cup with 48 teams and useless groupstages.
I'm not for a monopoly of those European monsters like Real or Barça, I want all the small teams to get an equal chance to qualify. But if they're not good enough, I don't want another competition so that they can get a participation trophy.
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Norway28695 Posts
I care much more about smaller, local competitions with teams I have some relation to (for me, Rosenborg) than I do about top teams in top competitions in other countries, and it's definitely like that for most people I know. I'd rather watch Rosenborg vs Kristiansund in the norwegian league than any el clasico, even if the skill level displayed is much worse. Someone from Sweden will rather watch el clasico than Rosenborg vs Kristiansund, obviously - but they might very well prefer watching IFK Gothenburg vs Brömmarpojkarna or whatever.
The sport needs there to be meaningful competition at all levels of play for spectator interest to be peaked in a way that makes a wide viewer base interested in following the top teams. It's understandable that you, someone who personally supports one of the top teams, cares more about watching top teams play, but my impression is that most people care much more about watching teams they support over watching the highest level of play possible. Obviously, teams playing at the highest level of play attract more supporters - but if there's no emotional investment in who wins or loses, if I don't care at all about who wins or loses a game, then I might as well just watch the highlights.
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In that case, watch local competitions! European cups are supposed to be prestigious. Not everything has to be available to everyone. It's fine to have an elite.
Your country's first league is the elite there. The CL is the elite's elite. We don't have to water it down, we don't have to feel outraged because only the big teams can participate. They dominate their country's elite, they deserve it. Don't let them have the financial monopoly alright, but sportswise it's how it's supposed to be.
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The problem with having an elite, though, is that, especially in this format we have right now, rich clubs get richer while there's no opportunity to improve for clubs from smaller countries. "Smaller" in term of european football, mind you I don't think Poland is "smaller" than Portugal per se, lol. What I'm trying to say is, I welcome more opportunities for smaller clubs and nations to stand up in the european scene, gain some recognition, new fans, more money, etc.
I understand that the EL right now has no sense, because it's basically a losers bracket for the CL. I'd like to see a combined CL+EL, with the EL becoming an official losers bracket for the CL, and a third (second now?) competition for smaller teams alongside.
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Norway28695 Posts
I just flat out disagree. The Europa League is to me a really important league and because teams I personally support play in it, I care more about it than I care about the champions league. Europe has 44 different countries, at most 5 of these have teams with any hope of winning the champions league, at most 10 have teams with any hope of escaping from the group stage. The Europa League basically doubles this.
I mean, why do you even care? It's not like the champions league is diminished by there also being a Europa league? It's not like boxing where there are different belts and there's a dispute between whether the champion of one federation is better than the champion of another. Everybody knows and acknowledges that the champions league winner is superior to the europa league winner. But it's still an immensely meaningful and important tournament to the teams that are not good enough for the champions league.
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Again, rewarding 'losers' (not in a disrespectful way alright). Make a friendly cup then, but don't call it a European cup. The title holds prestige, even the Cup winners cup made more sense.
Else let's make a secondary world cup with all the qualifiers reject and televise it as if it was the real thing. I mean, this year you'd have Italy, Chile and Netherlands, not bad. Let's see how happy the champions would have been.
Make it a real second division with more teams ascending and having their chance against the best.
As for the financial aspect of things, it doesn't have anything to do with the format. Those clubs have too much power and would get richer even with another format. The problem is with the national leagues and UEFA money distribution policy. Even if the CL was fair, you'd have billionaire EPL clubs vs poor smaller leagues.
Also you're advocating for diversity in the leagues represented. What if a league just does a bad job at getting better? Should they still get their participation trophy? There should be equal chances, not positive discrimination or whatever applies here. Since the 90s diversity is gone anyway. They should reinstate rules with a maximum number of foreign players, that'd push clubs to work well to survive and talent producing leagues like the Netherlands would be back, for example.
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Norway28695 Posts
it holds prestige, but only for the teams with no chance at winning the CL. That teams below that group have the opportunity to play meaningful competitions is a good thing. And hey, if there was a secondary world cup and Italians, Dutch and Chileans actually really cared about that tournament, that'd be great, I don't think they would though. But that's because those three countries are used to playing in the actual world cup. I mean, I love the new nations league format personally, that's a bit akin to what you are talking about. (Norway did not really have the chance at winning EC or WC qualifications when grouped with Germany or Italy, however the new nations league format gives us a form of meaningful competition where we have the chance at winning.)
I mean, I'd love for the EL to not let CL teams into it. That'd be great. But that's not an argument for not having an EL, just for slightly altering the ruleset.
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Norway28695 Posts
Also, for the last paragraph of yours.. Improving bad leagues is exactly part of the reason why the EL is so important. . Rosenborg needs to play meaningful games against better european competition to improve, if the Norwegian league is the only benchmark, then they quickly stagnate. The best Norwegian players would end up going abroad at much younger ages (because the Norwegian league, without EL, isn't good enough for them to develop or display their skills). We'd be unable to attract players like Bendtner, or Adegbenro. Players like Ole Sælnes would not be purchased by St.Etienne (which they did after he played a great couple games against them in the Europa League). If it's Champions League or nothing, then for Norway in the current football universe, it would be nothing, and there'd be no hope of ever getting anything more than nothing. With yearly participation in the Europa league however, players, and the team, can get a useful benchmark for how good they have to get, and attaining some degree of success in that tournament inspires them to further improve.
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On September 12 2018 20:04 WillyWanker wrote:
They should reinstate rules with a maximum number of foreign players, that'd push clubs to work well to survive and talent producing leagues like the Netherlands would be back, for example.
Is the rule completely removed? I recall some Football Manager 2014 still having some kind of homegrown requirement for EL, but can't find a mention on the actual EL 2018 ruleset.
Did they drop it completely recently or is it just lax to have noticeable effect?
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Alright but how a league format would not be as (if not more) beneficial to Norwegian teams? You'd get a good amount of games and slowly, if you're getting better (with good management and sports decision making), you should climb ranks until you get to the top 4-8 of whatever ascends to the CL?
Or why not create regional leagues, like Nordic countries, Slavic countries, ... It'd be a step up and a good preparation for the higher CL level.
Or make the national cups more relevant by having that Cup Winners Cup back. In most countries, the Cup doesn't hold much importance, it'd be a way to make them more attractive and have a European Cup that'd make some sense.
Adding more European Cups to fit more teams is just not the solution. Right now, if I over simplify it:
- CL = top 2-4 teams of each major league + top 1 teams of smaller leagues
- EL = 3rd-5th teams of each major league + 2nd-3rd of smaller leagues + top 1 teams of super small leagues
- New cup = ??? One can imagine it'll be 6th-7th of major league + 4th-5th of smaller leagues + 2nd-4th of super small leagues
We can go further and just have every single top division team in a European Cup, what sense does it make? Why would the Europa League make sense when the next one doesn't?
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On September 12 2018 21:00 Bacillus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2018 20:04 WillyWanker wrote:
They should reinstate rules with a maximum number of foreign players, that'd push clubs to work well to survive and talent producing leagues like the Netherlands would be back, for example. Is the rule completely removed? I recall some Football Manager 2014 still having some kind of homegrown requirement for EL, but can't find a mention on the actual EL 2018 ruleset. Did they drop it completely recently or is it just lax to have noticeable effect?
In Europe you can't have more than 3 non-European players. But a lot of South American players get a secondary passport and clubs can bypass that rule. They also have a rule that says that each squad should have at least 8 locally trained players. Out of these 8, you can have up to 4 that were trained in your country, not directly in your club. And if you don't get 8, you cannot have the 25 players squad, you get less. I'm not sure if it works exactly this way, but say you have 7 locally trained players, you can only register 24 players in total.
So 8/25, you can put your youth players and never have to call them for a game x)
edit: the source
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Norway28695 Posts
a balance has to be struck somewhere? Why not just have the CL be top1 team from england germany spain italy playing double round robin against each other? I personally think that how it is now is pretty great and see no point in changing anything significantly, although I would prefer if third place CL group stage team did not enter the EL.
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I liked the old school CL, only the first qualify. You get the first of every single league in the UEFA, and that's it. Everyone has the same chance to qualify, everyone gets at least a few games in.
No way it'll happen though, too much $$$$ to lose. Also, Real would never win the CL again hahaha
Since I'm just ranting and we're going to keep the EL anyway, I agree with that CL 3rd place change. It's just ridiculous that it's still there.
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EPT
