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On August 07 2013 13:32 Itsmedudeman wrote:
So you're saying.. kobe takes harder shot attempts to meet the same ends less efficiently
Yeah basically. He doesn't have the superhuman athleticism, so he uses cunning and trickery via footwork and handle (aka skill) to generate a shot.
Though, if you still have the superhuman athleticism that Lebron has, there's really not that pressing of a need to develop the cunning art of generating a shot, you just use your superhuman athleticism to bully your way to the basket.
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On August 07 2013 13:24 seiferoth10 wrote:
I can see where Mass is coming from. I'll try to clear it up with an analogy: Kobe : Lebron :: Hakeem : Shaq. This analogy only works on the offensive side though.
This analogy doesn't work because Lebron is more skilled at a lot of things than Kobe. Basically everything involving defense, passing, rebounding skills (not just athleticism, Lebron is excellent at boxing out and anticipating where a rebound is going to go), finishing at the rim (not getting to the rim, mind you, which is mostly athleticism and body control) and a bunch of other things. Kobe's got better post moves (if less versatile in how he can use them for size reasons, but size isn't a skill) and better shooting abilitiy but hell, Lebron creates his own shot with footwork better than Kobe (he's literally famous for jab stepping people to get open shots and other such things) which is why Kobe takes contested shots a lot more than Lebron.
You basically have to ignore almost every aspect of the game besides shooting and maybe footwork to say Kobe is more skilled than Lebron.
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Skill is more than practising something really hard for a long time though. The fundamental measure of any skill is its actual application measured against results.
Contrary to popular belief, Dwight supposedly works very hard at his FT shooting and, anecdotally, it's said he hits them at like 90% when at practice. But the practice is just one part of developing a skill: you actually have to apply it in a way that yields results.
It doesn't matter that Kobe has worked long and hard to hone his basketball skills. What matters is the results and measurable outcomes that are available as a result of the application of those skills.
But I mean, sure, if you want to measure skill by intensity and time then... maybe Kobe is the most "skilled". But even that's asinine because we have absolutely no idea how hard and long Kobe has worked throughout his career. For all we know, Steve Nash could have worked harder and longer but just isn't as athletically gifted as Kobe.
I feel like I've been trolled massively.
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On August 07 2013 13:48 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 13:24 seiferoth10 wrote:
I can see where Mass is coming from. I'll try to clear it up with an analogy: Kobe : Lebron :: Hakeem : Shaq. This analogy only works on the offensive side though. This analogy doesn't work because Lebron is more skilled at a lot of things than Kobe. Basically everything involving defense, passing, rebounding skills (not just athleticism, Lebron is excellent at boxing out and anticipating where a rebound is going to go), finishing at the rim (not getting to the rim, mind you, which is mostly athleticism and body control) and a bunch of other things. Kobe's got better post moves (if less versatile in how he can use them for size reasons, but size isn't a skill) and better shooting abilitiy but hell, Lebron creates his own shot with footwork better than Kobe (he's literally famous for jab stepping people to get open shots and other such things) which is why Kobe takes contested shots a lot more than Lebron.
Everything you said is based on Lebron being taller, stronger, and more athletic.
And the jab step you mention is only possible because people have to respect Lebron driving on them and leaving them in the dust. They have to play him that way. As he gets older, slower, and closer to Kobe's age, people will respect his driving ability less and less. As it has happened to Kobe.
Agree with seiferoth post at top.
@rowdierbob: not sure what you're getting at. And not trolling, just trying to get your game up.
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I'm trying to say you can't merely justify Kobe being the most skilled player simply because he has worked the longest and hardest at honing his craft.
The application of those skills, and hence the results they produce, matter. In fact, I'm not really sure it's possible to quantify who the most "skilled" player in the NBA is. There are so many measurable and immeasurable skills that are relevant to succeeding in the NBA that it would be nigh impossible to have any agreed definition of what quantifies any one player being the most "skilled".
If you really want to talk about skills it has to be on an individual basis. Like "who is the best three point shooter?" I would say Steph Curry, but why? Most importantly, the stats are the best indicator in this regard. But do you take into account things like his shooting stroke? The amount of arc he puts on the ball? "Skilled" is a really ambiguous term and I think you're being far too perfunctory in your assertion of Kobe's "skill".
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On August 07 2013 13:53 MassHysteria wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 13:48 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 07 2013 13:24 seiferoth10 wrote:
I can see where Mass is coming from. I'll try to clear it up with an analogy: Kobe : Lebron :: Hakeem : Shaq. This analogy only works on the offensive side though. This analogy doesn't work because Lebron is more skilled at a lot of things than Kobe. Basically everything involving defense, passing, rebounding skills (not just athleticism, Lebron is excellent at boxing out and anticipating where a rebound is going to go), finishing at the rim (not getting to the rim, mind you, which is mostly athleticism and body control) and a bunch of other things. Kobe's got better post moves (if less versatile in how he can use them for size reasons, but size isn't a skill) and better shooting abilitiy but hell, Lebron creates his own shot with footwork better than Kobe (he's literally famous for jab stepping people to get open shots and other such things) which is why Kobe takes contested shots a lot more than Lebron. Everything you said is based on Lebron being taller, stronger, and more athletic. And the jab step you mention is only possible because people have to respect Lebron driving on them and leaving them in the dust. They have to play him that way. As he gets older, slower, and closer to Kobe's age, people will respect his driving ability less and less. As it has happened to Kobe. Agree with seiferoth post at top. @rowdierbob: not sure what you're getting at. And not trolling, just trying to get your game up.
So basically all of Lebron's skills don't count because he has the threat of athleticism to back them up? How can you accurately judge skillsets then? It's not like Kobe has better numbers on his shooting to definitively prove that, despite being less athletic, he's better at it. He's got worse numbers. What is the metric you go to assume he has better footwork in the midrange than Lebron who is literally famous for getting guys flatfooted for open jumpers or easy drives?
Lebron being taller has nothing to do with boxing out his man or anticipating where a rebound is going. Lebron being taller and faster and stronger has nothing to do with his court vision and ability to pass. These are factors you're completely ignoring and have continued to completely ignore since they were first brought up in the thread.
Kobe is worse at everything related to defense(which is 50% of the game off the bat), rebounding, and passing. He is better at shooting(even this is contestable at this point in Lebron's career, though). How is he the more skilled player?
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On August 07 2013 14:10 RowdierBob wrote:
I'm trying to say you can't merely justify Kobe being the most skilled player simply because he has worked the longest and hardest at honing his craft.
The application of those skills, and hence the results they produce, matter. In fact, I'm not really sure it's possible to quantify who the most "skilled" player in the NBA is. There are so many measurable and immeasurable skills that are relevant to succeeding in the NBA that it would be nigh impossible to have any agreed definition of what quantifies any one player being the most "skilled".
If you really want to talk about skills it has to be on an individual basis. Like "who is the best three point shooter?" I would say Steph Curry, but why? Most importantly, the stats are the best indicator in this regard. But do you take into account things like his shooting stroke? The amount of arc he puts on the ball? "Skilled" is a really ambiguous term and I think you're being far too perfunctory in your assertion of Kobe's "skill".
I never said that that was what justified it. The results are seen on the court. It's as simple as looking at it.
And no, Kobe was (until his injury) the player most skilled at basketball. The game of basketball. The craft of basketball There are a lot of things that go into basketball, I know.
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I like watching Kobe score because it seems he has to try hard or struggle with every shot with finesse/footwork so it looks "skillful". Lebron just bulldozes past everyone for the easy 2 so it doesn't look as impressive even though everyone knows Lebron is by far the best player.
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Lol, only Kobe and his fanboys can generate so much discussion and still claim he's the best player in the NBA. Last season, Kobe's defense was beyond a joke, it was just that bad. There are numerous articles and videos to back that claim up and anyone who watched the lakers without severe obsession with Kobe would've noticed that. If he was the hardest worker in the league, perhaps he could've tried on defense.
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Lol, why are people using the word 'best' when this whole started with me saying that is wrong?. Where did I ever put that? People just be trolling now, I am stopping this nonsense. ... Kobe is one of the most polarized athletes on the planet. I should not have expected to have an unbiased discussion on it on the internet.
Just know that I am in the minority when I say that even though I haven't always been a Kobe fan, I have came to appreciate his greatness while he was still playing. Years down the road, people will know what I mean.
edit: agree with Daozzt. I'll be the first to say that Kobe needed 4 days off for every game he played defense last season.
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I don't think anyone's ever denied Kobe's old and sucks at defense. Seems you're just a hater trying to grasp at straws to bash him. Look at your post lmao.
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Make one positive comment Kobe and you have 5 people rushing to post that "Kobe is not clutch" article, some link to http://www.basketball-reference.com/ about advanced stats, or some comment about X players better than him. Jesus.
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On August 07 2013 14:35 Daozzt wrote:Make one positive comment Kobe and you have 5 people rushing to post that "Kobe is not clutch" article, some link to http://www.basketball-reference.com/ about advanced stats, or some comment about X players better than him. Jesus.
It's not "one positive Kobe comment." I don't think anyone could ever even pretend to argue that Kobe is not a very skilled basketball player. He's really good, albeit kinda venerable these days and much more prone to taking defense off which really exacerbates his challenges in that HALF of the game. The issue is calling Kobe the most skilled. Which is just asinine hyperbole that people have rightly been called out on.
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I'm still yet to see a cogent argument of Kobe being the NBA's most skilled player beyond "There isn't another player who has worked harder at honing his skill/craft for as long as Kobe has."
Aside from that being a ridiculous argument for defining Kobe's superior skills (for reasons already covered), no one can even quantify that Kobe has "worked harder at honing his skill/craft". We're getting sucked into the lore of Kobe Bryant that he somehow works harder than everyone. How do you know Kobe works harder?!
Daozzt, you're sounding dangerously like a Monta Ellis fan trying to justify chucking. 
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On August 07 2013 14:45 Haiq343 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 14:35 Daozzt wrote:Make one positive comment Kobe and you have 5 people rushing to post that "Kobe is not clutch" article, some link to http://www.basketball-reference.com/ about advanced stats, or some comment about X players better than him. Jesus. It's not "one positive Kobe comment." I don't think anyone could ever even pretend to argue that Kobe is not a very skilled basketball player. He's really good, albeit kinda venerable these days and much more prone to taking defense off which really exacerbates his challenges in that HALF of the game. The issue is calling Kobe the most skilled. Which is just asinine hyperbole that people have rightly been called out on.
So who actually is the most skilled Mr. Haiq?
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On August 07 2013 14:49 RowdierBob wrote:I'm still yet to see a cogent argument of Kobe being the NBA's most skilled player beyond "There isn't another player who has worked harder at honing his skill/craft for as long as Kobe has." Aside from that being a ridiculous argument for defining Kobe's superior skills (for reasons already covered), no one can even quantify that Kobe has "worked harder at honing his skill/craft". We're getting sucked into the lore of Kobe Bryant that he somehow works harder than everyone. How do you know Kobe works harder?! Daozzt, you're sounding dangerously like a Monta Ellis fan trying to justify chucking.
That's because your reading comprehension fails you. Who cares if Kobe works harder? You missed the whole point focused on that one thing.
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On August 07 2013 14:49 RowdierBob wrote:I'm still yet to see a cogent argument of Kobe being the NBA's most skilled player beyond "There isn't another player who has worked harder at honing his skill/craft for as long as Kobe has." Aside from that being a ridiculous argument for defining Kobe's superior skills (for reasons already covered), no one can even quantify that Kobe has "worked harder at honing his skill/craft". We're getting sucked into the lore of Kobe Bryant that he somehow works harder than everyone. How do you know Kobe works harder?! Daozzt, you're sounding dangerously like a Monta Ellis fan trying to justify chucking.
Kobe's not Kobe without the chucking or ridiculously horrible shot selection 
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Yeah, Kobe looks like he's taking stupidly difficult shots every time (I've commented on that many times in the past), but his "skill" at these moves does actually pay dividends. He was one of the players to lead the league in midrange efficiency at the elbow last season:
As per Grantland:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lvloYxX.jpg)
There is some merit to the skill argument, but there's a huge amount of caveats needed to qualify the argument that honestly it's better to not have the argument in the first place.
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On August 07 2013 14:50 MassHysteria wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 14:45 Haiq343 wrote:On August 07 2013 14:35 Daozzt wrote:Make one positive comment Kobe and you have 5 people rushing to post that "Kobe is not clutch" article, some link to http://www.basketball-reference.com/ about advanced stats, or some comment about X players better than him. Jesus. It's not "one positive Kobe comment." I don't think anyone could ever even pretend to argue that Kobe is not a very skilled basketball player. He's really good, albeit kinda venerable these days and much more prone to taking defense off which really exacerbates his challenges in that HALF of the game. The issue is calling Kobe the most skilled. Which is just asinine hyperbole that people have rightly been called out on. So who actually is the most skilled Mr. Haiq?
Defined how? Best player? Defender? Fadeaway jumpers over multiple defenders? Bank shots? Directing team defense? Shortest player? Kobe certainly works unbelievably hard to hone his craft, but I've no idea if he works harder than Ray Allen. Basketball is full of lots of discrete skills, and it's just disingenuous to claim Kobe is the most skilled without framing that definition somehow and act the victim when people call bullshit.
Edit: Ugh. Spencer Hawes...
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On August 07 2013 14:57 seiferoth10 wrote:Yeah, Kobe looks like he's taking stupidly difficult shots every time (I've commented on that many times in the past), but his "skill" at these moves does actually pay dividends. He was one of the players to lead the league in midrange efficiency at the elbow last season: As per Grantland: There is some merit to the skill argument, but there's a huge amount of caveats needed to qualify the argument that honestly it's better to not have the argument in the first place.
No one questioned that his shooting skill was elite. When I brought up the list of skills to analyze how Kobe is "the best" I even pointed out that both his offensive post play and shooting were top 5 for his position. There are just several others skills like defense, rebounding, passing, ball handling etc etc that he is clearly not even elite at and automatically disqualify him as the most skilled when compared to others.
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EPT
