EPTNBA Offseason 2013 - Page 65
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 07 2013 12:16 MassHysteria wrote: If you have a problem with what I said you just didn't read carefully. Simple as that. Nothing I said was subjective. Go ask NBA executives who the most skilled player was up until Kobe's injury and see what they tell you. Yes, let me just dial up the NBA executives. Clearly you've gotten their opinions, can you lend me their numbers? What you're saying is wrong because it's clearly wrong. If you can't read the things I said correctly then that's not my fault (See how obnoxious this is?). | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
Dribbling a basketball is a skill. A hard work ethic is not. No one is denying Kobe's longevity and hard work ethic but that is simply a means to an end in terms of honing the skills he needs to compete in the NBA. How hard and for how long you work is not directly correlated to your skill level. And for that matter, we have no idea how hard Kobe works versus his contemporaries. We all know Kobe's a hard worker, but how do you know there aren't 100 guys in the league who work equally as hard (if not more)? Kobe working long and hard to hone his on court skills does not make him the most "skilled player". I mean, there are demonstrable and measurable skills in the NBA. You don't necessarily have to work the longest and hardest to be the most skilled at whatever, you just have to be the best at it. | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
On August 07 2013 12:15 TwoToneTerran wrote: So because a skill became harder to learn, that gives Kobe a pass for being bad at it and it no longer qualifies as a skill? There are many great defenders who aren't incredibly athletic, you know this, right? If Kobe works so long and hard why do changing schemes affect him so much? I'd also like to know which schemes you're talking about because it sounds to me like you're just using a buzzword. Give me some defensive sets that went from vogue in the time spans you indicated to what replaced them. It has nothing to do with Kobe hate. He is definitively less skilled at many, many skill based aspects of the game relative to elite players both in the league and at the guard position. For instance, shot selection and passing ability aren't heavily reliant on athleticism (obviously you need some degree of athleticism to do ANYTHING in the NBA but we're working on degrees here), and Kobe isn't top 10 at either of those, right? And they're both skills, and they're both offensive, all the things that Kobe should be the best at but isn't if you want to say he's the most skilled. It's preposterous. What are you talking about? I have posted many things about defenses changing since Thibs and the Celtics in 2008. If not, go do the research. I don't need to give you defensive sets to prove to you something that is so widely known. And the bolded sentence is just ridiculous. You pretty much lost all credibility. And passing ability is just something that all the Kobe haters like to harp on Kobe without actually looking at the numbers. The man has averaged almost 5 assist per game in his career as a SG. And not getting into shot selection because that has been talked to death on here. I'll try to find a post I made about it some time ago. But it's not like I am going to say, well Kobe has great shot selection. Obviously that isn't his strength, and yet I still stand by what I said. EDIT: you guys take things for black and white too much. Try to read what I say, it is very carefully thought out. I only try to put things in perspective... | ||
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jmbthirteen
United States10734 Posts
Just because you've worked hard for years doesn't mean you are still the most skilled. Its not even a contest between LeBron and Kobe, or the rest of the NBA to be honest. | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
EDIT: There isn't another player who has worked as hard at honing his skill for as long as Kobe has. (read that carefully) So if I were to proofread that sentence I would write There isn't another player who has worked harder at honing his skill/craft for as long as Kobe has. Hope that makes sense because I actually did not agree with my previous sentence either now that I read it. But pretty much just means there isn't anyone who has worked harder than Kobe (it is fine if you want to say as hard but not harder) for as long as he has been doing it (seventeen years as a professional). Duncan maybe, but, objectively speaking, he is less skilled than Kobe is in the craft of basketball. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
But there are definable skills like shooting, ball handling, passing in the NBA. Is Kobe a better ball handler than CP3? No Is Kobe a better three point shooter than Steph Curry? No Is Kobe a better passer than LeBron? No I'm struggling to understand you definition of "skilled" that we could apply then to Kobe being demonstrably "the most skilled". I read that "There isn't another player who has worked as hard at honing his skill for as long as Kobe has." But is this the criteria for becoming the NBA's most skilled? To work the longest and hardest at it? Why isn't Steve Nash more "skilled" than Kobe? | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 07 2013 12:27 MassHysteria wrote: What are you talking about? I have posted many things about defenses changing since Thibs and the Celtics in 2008. If not, go do the research. I don't need to give you defensive sets to prove to you something that is so widely known. And the bolded sentence is just ridiculous. You pretty much lost all credibility. And passing ability is just something that all the Kobe haters like to harp on Kobe without actually looking at the numbers. The man has averaged almost 5 assist per game in his career as a SG. And not getting into shot selection because that has been talked to death on here. I'll try to find a post I made about it some time ago. But it's not like I am going to say, well Kobe has great shot selection. Obviously that isn't his strength, and yet I still stand by what I said. EDIT: you guys take things for black and white too much. Try to read what I say, it is very carefully thought out. I only try to put things in perspective... You are the one who started out with the binary "Kobe is the best" soundbyte. It is not our fault if we ask you to elucidate on it. No one has ever complimented Kobe's shot selection, not even those who would lick his pooper if given the chance. Kobe is not a bad passer. He is hardly an elite passer and being elite at a skill is usually a requirement for being the best/most skilled. "I don't need to prove what I said to prove what I said" is your argument on the defensive thing. Even if you're 100% correct, that's an excuse for why Kobe is bad at defense. As reasonable an excuse as it may be, it means that he is not skilled at defense. It inherently disproves both your statements, the first of which is Kobe is the best player in the world and Kobe is the most skilled player. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13007 Posts
It honestly reads like your opining arbitrary and baseless statements based on your player fandom. | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On August 07 2013 12:09 MassHysteria wrote: As for people saying defense, no this isn't included. Because how can you quantify defensive skill in this? Defensive schemes have changed throughout Kobe's career. When Kobe came into the league, it wasn't what it is now. The schemes that teams are running now have really only taken a trend somewhat late into Kobe's career. You guys are judging his defense in the last few years (since 2008/09 when modern defenses started changing) compared to other players in teams running a great defensive system. Well those players are in their prime athletically. First - Defense must be accounted for as it is 50% of the entire game. How can it not be. Second - Granted defensive schemes have changed over the duration of his tenure but at no point has "completely lapsing on knowing the location of your man" ever been part of it. His on-ball defense is simply poor. Yes there are nuances to how to play the high pick and roll, skills you might even say. And he has clearly NOT been very skilled at that for a long time. Its a fair criticism to point out, no? | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
On August 07 2013 12:43 RowdierBob wrote: TTT is right though. Just because Kobe isn't as skilled as some aspects of the game as guys like Durant, LeBron, it doesn't make him a bad players. But there are definable skills like shooting, ball handling, passing in the NBA. Is Kobe a better ball handler than CP3? No Is Kobe a better three point shooter than Steph Curry? No Is Kobe a better passer than LeBron? No I'm struggling to understand you definition of "skilled" that we could apply then to Kobe being demonstrably "the most skilled". I read that "There isn't another player who has worked as hard at honing his skill for as long as Kobe has." But is this the criteria for becoming the NBA's most skilled? To work the longest and hardest at it? Why isn't Steve Nash more "skilled" than Kobe? Because he never was more skilled than Kobe was. Ever. So I agree with your questions and answers Bob. But Kobe is(or was until his injury) more skilled at basketball than those players. What I am saying is simple. Kobe is more skilled at the game of basketball. LBJ might surpass him very soon but his overall skill up until now has been of a lower level. And that is not a knock on Lebron at all, just the truth. In the last 2 years, Lebron has become the best post player in the league. And he is still getting better. edit: @TTT, I never said Kobe is the best. Your blind hate be getting in your eyes again. This whole thing started because I was correcting someone who said Kobe is the best player on the planet. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On August 07 2013 12:48 BoZiffer wrote: First - Defense must be accounted for as it is 50% of the entire game. How can it not be. Second - Granted defensive schemes have changed over the duration of his tenure but at no point has "completely lapsing on knowing the location of your man" ever been part of it. His on-ball defense is simply poor. Yes there are nuances to how to play the high pick and roll, skills you might even say. And he has clearly NOT been very skilled at that for a long time. Its a fair criticism to point out, no? Yeah honestly half the players we're talking about now were in the league before 2008 (which according to him is the shifting point in NBA defense). | ||
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ketomai
United States2789 Posts
People are just simply asking you for a way to describe and qualify or quantify skill and how Kobe compares. You are just giving vague descriptions at best and it doesn't help that you reply to everyone who disagrees that they're "blinded by their hate". Assume that I'm just unable to look up the definition of skill that you think is so obvious. Why is Lebron less "skilled" overall? Why is he a more "skilled" post player now? No "you don't even have to know, you can see it with your eyes". Explain it in detail for a dumb plebian like myself. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
at generating discussion | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
edit: @TTT: That was a joke. But you're still a player-hater =P. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 07 2013 13:24 MassHysteria wrote: Haters. This is the ultimate shitty argument, by the by. If you don't actually have a logical reason or any proof behind your statements besides "Kobe has worked the longest and hardest to develop his skills" then you are nothing but fanwanking Kobe. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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