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On August 07 2013 14:52 Daozzt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 14:49 RowdierBob wrote:I'm still yet to see a cogent argument of Kobe being the NBA's most skilled player beyond "There isn't another player who has worked harder at honing his skill/craft for as long as Kobe has." Aside from that being a ridiculous argument for defining Kobe's superior skills (for reasons already covered), no one can even quantify that Kobe has "worked harder at honing his skill/craft". We're getting sucked into the lore of Kobe Bryant that he somehow works harder than everyone. How do you know Kobe works harder?! Daozzt, you're sounding dangerously like a Monta Ellis fan trying to justify chucking.  Kobe's not Kobe without the chucking or ridiculously horrible shot selection 
Exactly. It is what it is.
Same as Lebron is what he is. He is second freak athlete to hit the NBA in this modern era (Shaq). His size, strength, and athletic ability combined along with his great skill have not ever been seen in the history of the NBA. The only thing he can keep improving as he gets older is his skill, which he is doing.
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On August 07 2013 15:00 Haiq343 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 14:50 MassHysteria wrote:On August 07 2013 14:45 Haiq343 wrote:On August 07 2013 14:35 Daozzt wrote:Make one positive comment Kobe and you have 5 people rushing to post that "Kobe is not clutch" article, some link to http://www.basketball-reference.com/ about advanced stats, or some comment about X players better than him. Jesus. It's not "one positive Kobe comment." I don't think anyone could ever even pretend to argue that Kobe is not a very skilled basketball player. He's really good, albeit kinda venerable these days and much more prone to taking defense off which really exacerbates his challenges in that HALF of the game. The issue is calling Kobe the most skilled. Which is just asinine hyperbole that people have rightly been called out on. So who actually is the most skilled Mr. Haiq? Defined how? Best player? Defender? Fadeaway jumpers over multiple defenders? Bank shots? Directing team defense? Shortest player? Kobe certainly works unbelievably hard to hone his craft, but I've no idea if he works harder than Ray Allen. Basketball is full of lots of discrete skills, and it's just disingenuous to claim Kobe is the most skilled without framing that definition somehow and act the victim when people call bullshit. Edit: Ugh. Spencer Hawes...
Defined as the most skilled basketball player lol. That was my question. Everything you said is included in basketball is it not?
And I never said he works harder. I said no one works harder than him. Which is to say that there might be people working just as hard as he is. I don't dispute that..
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On August 07 2013 15:02 MassHysteria wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 14:52 Daozzt wrote:On August 07 2013 14:49 RowdierBob wrote:I'm still yet to see a cogent argument of Kobe being the NBA's most skilled player beyond "There isn't another player who has worked harder at honing his skill/craft for as long as Kobe has." Aside from that being a ridiculous argument for defining Kobe's superior skills (for reasons already covered), no one can even quantify that Kobe has "worked harder at honing his skill/craft". We're getting sucked into the lore of Kobe Bryant that he somehow works harder than everyone. How do you know Kobe works harder?! Daozzt, you're sounding dangerously like a Monta Ellis fan trying to justify chucking. Kobe's not Kobe without the chucking or ridiculously horrible shot selection Exactly. It is what it is. Same as Lebron is what he is. He is second freak athlete to hit the NBA in this modern era (Shaq). His size, strength, and athletic ability combined along with his great skill have not ever been seen in the history of the NBA. The only thing he can keep improving as he gets older is his skill, which he is doing.
But shot selection is a skill. You don't get a pass for being bad at defense and shot selection because that's "who you are" while simultaneously being able to be called the most skilled player.
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On August 07 2013 15:05 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 15:02 MassHysteria wrote:On August 07 2013 14:52 Daozzt wrote:On August 07 2013 14:49 RowdierBob wrote:I'm still yet to see a cogent argument of Kobe being the NBA's most skilled player beyond "There isn't another player who has worked harder at honing his skill/craft for as long as Kobe has." Aside from that being a ridiculous argument for defining Kobe's superior skills (for reasons already covered), no one can even quantify that Kobe has "worked harder at honing his skill/craft". We're getting sucked into the lore of Kobe Bryant that he somehow works harder than everyone. How do you know Kobe works harder?! Daozzt, you're sounding dangerously like a Monta Ellis fan trying to justify chucking. Kobe's not Kobe without the chucking or ridiculously horrible shot selection Exactly. It is what it is. Same as Lebron is what he is. He is second freak athlete to hit the NBA in this modern era (Shaq). His size, strength, and athletic ability combined along with his great skill have not ever been seen in the history of the NBA. The only thing he can keep improving as he gets older is his skill, which he is doing. But shot selection is a skill. You don't get a pass for being bad at defense and shot selection because that's "who you are" while simultaneously being able to be called the most skilled player.
It is what it is though, no one said he gets a pass. But you are allowed to include that in your assessment of his skills as a basketball player. I always think that is his worst quality as a player (though sometimes it might also be his best).
And when bringing up the bad defense thing, please keep in mind you are comparing him to young bucks in their prime (we would have to compare his defense when he was 27/28 to these guys now, and defense is one of the things that has changed/improved the most since then). Defense and the value placed on defense by executives/ informed fans has substantially increased since 2008 (but more importantly the no illegal defense rule change).
Not only that, but a lot of the players in their prime now didn't place much of an emphasis on defense starting until around 2007/2008 and that ubuntu Celtics run. Let's not forget that the USA Olympics team started practicing more after 2006 as well after the loss to Greece. A lot of the players currently in their prime, learned a lot about defense from Kobe during that time. This was before the Thibs revolution though.
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On August 07 2013 14:51 MassHysteria wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 14:49 RowdierBob wrote:I'm still yet to see a cogent argument of Kobe being the NBA's most skilled player beyond "There isn't another player who has worked harder at honing his skill/craft for as long as Kobe has." Aside from that being a ridiculous argument for defining Kobe's superior skills (for reasons already covered), no one can even quantify that Kobe has "worked harder at honing his skill/craft". We're getting sucked into the lore of Kobe Bryant that he somehow works harder than everyone. How do you know Kobe works harder?! Daozzt, you're sounding dangerously like a Monta Ellis fan trying to justify chucking. That's because your reading comprehension fails you. Who cares if Kobe works harder? You missed the whole point focused on that one thing.
You still haven't answered why you think Kobe is the most skilled player beyond "There isn't another player who has worked harder at honing his skill/craft for as long as Kobe has." That's fine to say that but why does this make Kobe the NBA's most skilled player?
So yeah, you kinda brought up the working harder thing.
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Never said it does Rowdierbob, that's my point. I never said that that was the reason that makes him the most skilled. I said the results are seen on the court.
And to be the most skilled at anything, you have to work hard at it. But you can't be the most skilled by just working hard, you have to start off with a reasonable amount of skill to be able to hold off the people working hard to try to surpass you. Well Kobe came in at a high level, and has worked hard to maintain at a high level.
But the results are seen on the court. If you don't think it showed last season, then you aren't considering how many minutes he has played and the history of players that have played that much (like I said in a previous post about how his numbers compare to Carmelo who is 28/29 and barely any playoff minutes).
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minutes played has nothing to do with skill...
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On August 07 2013 15:37 jmbthirteen wrote:
minutes played has nothing to do with skill...
Minutes played is equal to age or mileage in the NBA. The more minutes played, the less you rely on your athletic ability as they have all but diminished. The less you rely on physical attributes/advantages, the more you rely on skill...
To be able to keep up with players like Melo, who have way less minutes played (think about how many playoff minutes Kobe has in his career) and is in his athletic prime, Kobe has to rely more on his skill to achieve the same results. To add to that, this past season was one of Kobe's most efficient of his career.
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On August 07 2013 15:37 jmbthirteen wrote:
minutes played has nothing to do with skill...
Sure it does, the more minutes you've played past your prime, the more skill you need to offset your waning athleticism to remain playing at the same level. An example off the top of my head (and probably a poor example at that, my first thought was Vince Carter) is Kobe vs T-mac.
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On August 07 2013 15:18 MassHysteria wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2013 15:05 TwoToneTerran wrote:On August 07 2013 15:02 MassHysteria wrote:On August 07 2013 14:52 Daozzt wrote:On August 07 2013 14:49 RowdierBob wrote:I'm still yet to see a cogent argument of Kobe being the NBA's most skilled player beyond "There isn't another player who has worked harder at honing his skill/craft for as long as Kobe has." Aside from that being a ridiculous argument for defining Kobe's superior skills (for reasons already covered), no one can even quantify that Kobe has "worked harder at honing his skill/craft". We're getting sucked into the lore of Kobe Bryant that he somehow works harder than everyone. How do you know Kobe works harder?! Daozzt, you're sounding dangerously like a Monta Ellis fan trying to justify chucking. Kobe's not Kobe without the chucking or ridiculously horrible shot selection Exactly. It is what it is. Same as Lebron is what he is. He is second freak athlete to hit the NBA in this modern era (Shaq). His size, strength, and athletic ability combined along with his great skill have not ever been seen in the history of the NBA. The only thing he can keep improving as he gets older is his skill, which he is doing. But shot selection is a skill. You don't get a pass for being bad at defense and shot selection because that's "who you are" while simultaneously being able to be called the most skilled player. It is what it is though, no one said he gets a pass. But you are allowed to include that in your assessment of his skills as a basketball player. I always think that is his worst quality as a player (though sometimes it might also be his best). And when bringing up the bad defense thing, please keep in mind you are comparing him to young bucks in their prime (we would have to compare his defense when he was 27/28 to these guys now, and defense is one of the things that has changed/improved the most since then). Defense and the value placed on defense by executives/ informed fans has substantially increased since 2008 (but more importantly the no illegal defense rule change). Not only that, but a lot of the players in their prime now didn't place much of an emphasis on defense starting until around 2007/2008 and that ubuntu Celtics run. Let's not forget that the USA Olympics team started practicing more after 2006 as well after the loss to Greece. A lot of the players currently in their prime, learned a lot about defense from Kobe during that time. This was before the Thibs revolution though.
Again, this is not an argument for why Kobe is more skilled. The fact that younger players decided to broaden their skillsets and practice defense more rigorously does not make them less skilled than Kobe because they did it. Even still, Duncan's in the top 5 skilled players and he's old as dirt, but he still has great passing skills, defensive skills, rebounding fundamentals etc etc, thus his nickname. Age isn't a mitigating factor. If Kobe lacks a solid defensive skillset, solid passing skills, solid rebounding fundamentals, elite ball handling abilities (he's good at this, mind you, but we're talking THE BEST), and a plethora of other things I've already mentione, how is he the most skilled?
What skills are he the best at? Give me a list of relevant NBA skills that you think Kobe is the best at to justify it. Not just "Well he kept up with Melo in scoring so that makes him more skilled because he's older" because this isn't an argument.
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You keep saying the results speak for themselves on the court. What results? What results on the court are proof that Kobe is the NBA's most "skilled" player? It's a simple question.
edit: this isn't anything anti-Kobe FWIW. He's certainly one of the NBA's best, most skilled players. But the most "skilled" player? All I'm asking for is something substantive that leads you to believe this.
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I like how this thread was getting about a page of posts a week and after this started it's like 3 pages in a few hours.
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On August 07 2013 17:39 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I like how this thread was getting about a page of posts a week and after this started it's like 3 pages in a few hours.
Someone is wrong on the internet. The alarms were sounded.
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It's just bored off-season dribbling.
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So you guys want me to find you a stat that shows you he was the most skilled player in the game before his injury?
Ridiculous. Just watch people play. Thats what I mean by results on the court.
If you think any player was more skilled on the game of basketball you are simply incorrect. I can see a case for LBJ, but even still it's only one other player you could say, so the responses as if it were such a ridicolous statement I made are funny.
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On August 07 2013 20:48 MassHysteria wrote:
So you guys want me to find you a stat that shows you he was the most skilled player in the game before his injury?
Ridiculous. Just watch people play. Thats what I mean by results on the court.
the burden of proof is on you. i've read the last few pages and my mind is blown by the way you side step everything, you sound like a politician with spin doctors at every stage.
i think lebron is the most skilled player in the NBA, if you don't understand that then you're wrong and you are not watching the game properly, i''m not going to back up my claim with anything because you know, just watch.
and what are these "results on the court" that indicate kobe is better? you are so bloody vague after making a huge claim that kobe is the most skilled player int he league.
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Ok I just said lebron has a case...
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On August 07 2013 20:54 MassHysteria wrote:
Ok I just said lebron has a case...
And i dont need to sidestep anything if people dont read.
Edit: sorry meant to edit.
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EPT
