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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
On August 07 2013 20:54 MassHysteria wrote: Ok I just said lebron has a case... sure. and i said lebron is the best, if you don't think so then you're a lebron hater. that's literally how i felt after reading the last 3 pages | ||
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Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
On August 07 2013 20:55 MassHysteria wrote: And i dont need to sidestep anything if people dont read. Edit: sorry meant to edit. then provide the stats, actually, anything that indicates kobe is the most skilled. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13480 Posts
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
And for the record, I don't think "skill" is the right word in this case, but whatever. And yes, it's only on one side of the court, and only for personal scoring, that's why I didn't take his position because there's a bunch of holes in the argument, but I'm just trying to clarify for the close-minded people in here who respond with "LOL, ANOTHER KOBE ASS LICKER?!?" | ||
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mjxn
Australia939 Posts
That's great and all but it doesn't fairly reflect the current ability of players.I would consider the player that can do it all or do most of it all to have the largest skill set which is essentially what having skills is. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 07 2013 22:43 seiferoth10 wrote: Because there isn't a quantitative metric for what he's talking about (that I can think of). The best I can explain it is that when a player is past his athletic apex and his athleticism starts declining, does he find a way to remain just as effective a player despite his waning athleticism? For Hakeem, it was a series of fakes and reading his defender's reactions, sometimes as many as four fakes in a row just to get the defender to bite, so that he could get a clear shot. Compare that to Shaq backing down a guy smaller than him, then a drop step and jump hook or dunk on him. And for the record, I don't think "skill" is the right word in this case, but whatever. And yes, it's only on one side of the court, and only for personal scoring, that's why I didn't take his position because there's a bunch of holes in the argument, but I'm just trying to clarify for the close-minded people in here who respond with "LOL, ANOTHER KOBE ASS LICKER?!?" Well it was specifically kobe wanking because we had to back him down to "Well only if you count offense" which immediately made his statement of Kobe being the most skilled automatically incorrect, and even with just offensive ability Kobe is clearly not as productive as the likes of Paul or Lebron who have other skills like passing and the ability to run offensive sets like pick and rolls and isos better than Kobe, and any other situation that requires ball handling. | ||
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Haiq343
United States2548 Posts
On August 07 2013 22:43 seiferoth10 wrote: Because there isn't a quantitative metric for what he's talking about (that I can think of). The best I can explain it is that when a player is past his athletic apex and his athleticism starts declining, does he find a way to remain just as effective a player despite his waning athleticism? For Hakeem, it was a series of fakes and reading his defender's reactions, sometimes as many as four fakes in a row just to get the defender to bite, so that he could get a clear shot. Compare that to Shaq backing down a guy smaller than him, then a drop step and jump hook or dunk on him. And for the record, I don't think "skill" is the right word in this case, but whatever. And yes, it's only on one side of the court, and only for personal scoring, that's why I didn't take his position because there's a bunch of holes in the argument, but I'm just trying to clarify for the close-minded people in here who respond with "LOL, ANOTHER KOBE ASS LICKER?!?" It's fine if it doesn't need to be a completely quantified arguement, there's not a unified number of basketball ability. But there's been actually zero justification given for the statement other than Kobe's good and I know because I watch the games. Which is an awful foundation for the kind of statement made. Also, stop using Hakeem as the comparison. I understand it's to differentiate 'skill' from athleticism (in many ways also a honed skill), but Hakeem fucking played Defense. And was monstrously good at it. | ||
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Ethelis
United States2400 Posts
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
Also it'd be great if people stop posting "X player is more skillful than Y, I have stats here's my proof: basketball-reference.com", it's really fucking annoying. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
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AntiGrav1ty
Germany2310 Posts
On August 08 2013 04:25 MilesTeg wrote: That sounds convincing but it's not always the case. Dominique Wilkins aged very well, Larry Bird didn't. Where the hell did you get this from? oO | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
On August 08 2013 01:47 xMiragex wrote: This is a pretty stupid argument, even though in a vacuum it might not be. Also there is no substitute for experience so it's unfair to compare guys who are so distant in that. Like it's pretty fair to compare Duncan and Kobe somewhat (i know different position) but it'd be incredibly stupid to compare say, Kobe to Rose (even lebron imo) or whatever. Agreed. Thank you for restoring my faith in TL. I will be back after work to try and respond to the other's posts. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2013/08/07/2425531/ncaa-removes-search-function-after-espns-jay-bilas-exposes-amateurism-myth/ | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On August 08 2013 05:46 Ace wrote: I can not wait for the day the piece of shit NCAA is destroyed. Corrupt as fuck. http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2013/08/07/2425531/ncaa-removes-search-function-after-espns-jay-bilas-exposes-amateurism-myth/ When pigs fly. I mean, real, living, oinking pigs. | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
the haters =P So if all the players in the NBA were the same height and length, ran at the same speed, jumped the same distance, were equally strong, and were identical in physical attributes and athleticism. Who would win? That is essentially what skill is. The most skilled player would win in that situation. And that is Kobe Bryant (over Duncan, b/c Kobe has better outside/perimeter game). Sorry if it hurts your feelings people =P. .. And I can't include defense in this because look how hard it is for people to even agree on what skill is. So, how would you really get to defensive skill which is much less quantifiable than offense is up to this point in time. You have to think of basketball players as men of their craft. You aren't born being able to shoot 3 pointers or knowing the right angle for a bankshot. All these men work at their craft/skill just like any other acquired skill. Almost all the pros and coaches say defense is about effort. At least up until this point in time, there haven't been any/many metrics for seeing how skilled of a defender you are (compared to offense at least). With people trying harder on team defense nowadays and the importance on it rising, there might be more concrete ways to look at/rate a player's defense in the near future though. Even with this in mind, the more athletic/ in your prime you are, the more able you are to play defense. Or at least be able to maintain the effort over the long run (be it game, or season). Even closing out the 3-point shooter after help defense inside is primarily based on athleticism and effort (and this has only become more prevalent in recent years with new defensive schemes and deadlier 3-point shooting). For this reason, defense is one of those things that falls off the most as you are declining. Specially for a perimeter player like Kobe, who has to guard players on the outside (as opposed to a big man inside). Defense is one of those things that you can't cover up with skill as a perimeter player as you get older. It is much more unforgiving to him than a big man like KG, who even though old, has mantained his great defense inside (even though he also doesn't carry as much offensive load as Kobe). | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13480 Posts
It would have been fine if you said: "I've seen a lot of NBA basketball in my lifetime and, IMO, Kobe is the most skilled player." That's cool--we all have an opinion and the above statement is not necessarily wrong (although debateable). But you came out and said Kobe is the most skilled basketball player in the NBA and added some highly arbitrary and reasoning to justify the statement. Anyone asking for a semblance of proof was called a hater. As I said earlier, it's impossible to argue who is the NBA's most skilled. Even defining what makes someone skilled is close to impossible because there are so many skills relevant to being a great NBA player that are completely immeasurable. You can't put a metric on great footwork or first steps or boxing out technique or pump fakes etc. Can you see then why it might be ridiculous to say Kobe is the most skilled player without any evidence to back this statement up? | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
Everything I have said on here are recent thoughts/opinions that I have came to agree with within the last year. I am not even a Kobe-fan for the umpteenth time ( I am a Lakers fan though). I have came to respect him this past year though(have said that before as well). And sorry, but how can you not see skill with your own two eyes? I have given you everything you need to realize what skill/craft is in terms of basketball. I can't prove it to you because you need to understand what I mean in terms of working on basketball like it is a craft. If I ask you who is more skilled at basketball, Kobe Bryant or Chandler Parsons? Would I need to give you evidence? The proof is in the pudding. I have asked you three times who you would say is a more skilled player than Kobe was up until last season, and you can't give me an answer. Think about why you can't before you post. If you want to say LBJ or Duncan is more skilled, you know what I'll accept that answer. It is wrong, but I'll accept it. But anyone else is ludicrous. And him being in the top 3 (even though he is 1) shows you how my statement isn't as ridiculous as you want to make it sound. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13480 Posts
Kobe's one of the NBA's most skilled guys. Chandler Parsons is somewhere in the middle. But if you'd ask me to tell you who is more skilled between say Kobe and Lebron--I have no reasonable method of answering that question. I just don't think it's possible to answer. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
edit- under your "same athleticism" argument I'd argue Andre Miller is the most skilled, because he holds his own in the NBA while having like no athletic ability at all. Make him have the same athleticism as Lebron or Kobe and I think he'd do dangerous things. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9175 Posts
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