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Ethelis
United States2397 Posts
On August 07 2013 01:57 MassHysteria wrote: Actually, it had nothing to do with injuries. In lakerland we have just become accustomed to taking shots at Well in his defense....wait....  | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
On August 07 2013 01:32 BoZiffer wrote: Nothing quite like dropping into a subforum, lobbing a grenade, eh? And also, to reiterate.... no. I mean a grenade yes because the statement in itself is objectively wrong. But Kobe is ( or was until this injury) still the most skilled player on the planet. And if we get into guards, what makes him so so special is that he has been able to maintain his greatness consistently this late into his career. In basketball, where it is all about the 'mileage' and how many minutes played, Kobe has surpassed expectations already. And even more special is that he is/was a guard doing it. Haha, I did mean defence, m'bad ;O | ||
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lamprey1
Canada919 Posts
On August 07 2013 00:41 JimmiC wrote: That statement couldn't be further from the truth. It is the most fun, and should continue. IMO hockey should have hitting earlier not later so people learn how to give and take a hit. But talk about a overstatement. Or speaking a personal opinion like fact. Complete joke of a post. the joke is that you have presented zero sources to back your claim. http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorialopinion/2012/01/04/the_future_looks_bleak_for_canadian_minor_hockey.html participation in minor hockey in canada is way down. injuries are way up. in canada, parents are advising their children not to play hockey for the same reasons they wouldn't let their kids play CFL/NFL style football 30 years ago. Fear of head injuries. How many children do you have? However, the topic is basketball. And, rest assured it is the #1 participation sport in Canada http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2013/07/12/how-basketball-overtook-hockey-as-the-most-popular-youth-sport-in-canada/ the above 2 links are the "pop culture" fluff pieces that came from studies such as this one. http://www.cflri.ca/media/node/385/files/p04_section_a.pdf tristan thompson and anthony bennett are on my new favourite team. Go Cavs Go! if you have any sources to back your (non) claims, post them for meaningful discussion.. lest your post be considered a joke. | ||
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seiferoth10
3362 Posts
I vote Pecans. And to actually add some content: the schedule was released recently. Highlights: opening day Bulls/Heat and Lakers/Clippers. Houston's first game against Charlotte. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13365 Posts
On August 07 2013 02:05 MassHysteria wrote: I mean a grenade yes because the statement in itself is objectively wrong. But Kobe is ( or was until this injury) still the most skilled player on the planet. And if we get into guards, what makes him so so special is that he has been able to maintain his greatness consistently this late into his career. In basketball, where it is all about the 'mileage' and how many minutes played, Kobe has surpassed expectations already. And even more special is that he is/was a guard doing it. Haha, I did mean defence, m'bad ;O Is there anything Kobe does that would be considered best in the NBA? How would you quantify Kobe being the most skilled player? | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On August 07 2013 09:45 rabidch wrote: everybody got baited into a kobe discussion again Its a metaphysical certitude that one will occur every 50 pages. hehehe | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
On August 07 2013 09:38 RowdierBob wrote: Is there anything Kobe does that would be considered best in the NBA? How would you quantify Kobe being the most skilled player? Name another player more skilled than Kobe in the league? | ||
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
On August 07 2013 10:03 MassHysteria wrote: Name another player more skilled than Kobe in the league? LeBron James. Just to throw some kerosene on the fire | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13365 Posts
Skilled can be a pretty ambiguous term. Like, is Kobe the best "all-round" player in the NBA? As in, if you aggregated all the "skills" required of an NBA player, would Kobe come out best (i.e. ball handling, passing, shooting, efficiency, defence)? I'm not really sure how you can just say Kobe's the most skilled player on the planet. What evidence is there to support this? How is he more skilled than the league's best player in LeBron? | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
On August 07 2013 10:03 MassHysteria wrote: Name another player more skilled than Kobe in the league? Welp, I'll bite. Since Kobe plays no D, you're clearly talking offensively. Hence, I will see your Kobe and raise you a Durant. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
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slyboogie
United States3423 Posts
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
There isn't another player who has worked as hard at honing his skill for as long as Kobe has. (read that carefully) The man can/was match offensive numbers with Carmelo Anthony, who was 28/29, and has played far fewer minutes in his career than Kobe has (minutes played is way more important than age). And he is only doing that because of skill, not athleticism. People like to compare Kobe now to players in their prime. Not completely fair, but a testimony to how highly he is still regarded at such a late age. And don't get it twisted..the thing that was so impressive (and forgotten now) about Kobe Bryant entering the league at 17/19 years old was how skilled he was. Yes, he was a hard worker/competitor which is eventually what makes him who he is now. But he was able to win championships at such a young age because of that skill that exceeded his age. He didn't have the freak body/athleticism of a Lebron or Shaq. Lebron is a better player than Kobe, but it does not mean he is more skilled. Kobe | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 07 2013 10:03 MassHysteria wrote: Name another player more skilled than Kobe in the league? Well let's just check a bunch of skills. Post-Play: Top 5 for a guard, not even close to top 10 for a player. He is very experienced and skilled at backing down and scoring on other guards, more or less. Rebounding: Obviously not very good, this includes stuff like percentages and blocking out On-Ball defense: absolutely horrid Off-ball defense: even worse Ball handling: wouldn't put him in the top 10 ball handling guards Passing: again, not even top ten for a guard Shot selection: ahahahahahaha Nebulous ability to make his own shot: Maybe top 5 SG due to how thin SG is, not even top 10 guard Finishing at the rim: alright, though again not top 10, for the league or for guards Shooting ability: Stellar, top 5 in the league if you account anything from mid range to deeper 3s, contested or uncontested. No one can make more jacked up, horrible shots better than Kobe besides a select few Pick and roll: bad defending it, bad executing it There are other skills I can't remember off the top of my head like I could these. Basically some years ago Kobe could claim he was top 5 in almost all of these for his position which would make him arguably the most skilled player in the league, but skills deteriorate with age as others get better and you lose the ability to commit effort to these things due to failing athleticism and stamina. Kobe is not the most skilled player in the league which, laughably, wasn't even your original statement. Your original statement was that he was the best player in the league, which is even more false because this allows us to factor in things that aren't purely skill related like jumping ability, ability to run breaks, blocking ability, run down defense etc etc, all of which he's definitively below average at. edit: also don't pull the "He works harder than everyone" mumbo jumbo. That's not even a skill nor is it provable. | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
On August 07 2013 11:54 TwoToneTerran wrote: Well let's just check a bunch of skills. Post-Play: Top 5 for a guard, not even close to top 10 for a player. He is very experienced and skilled at backing down and scoring on other guards, more or less. Rebounding: Obviously not very good, this includes stuff like percentages and blocking out On-Ball defense: absolutely horrid Off-ball defense: even worse Ball handling: wouldn't put him in the top 10 ball handling guards Passing: again, not even top ten for a guard Shot selection: ahahahahahaha Nebulous ability to make his own shot: Maybe top 5 SG due to how thin SG is, not even top 10 guard Finishing at the rim: alright, though again not top 10, for the league or for guards Shooting ability: Stellar, top 5 in the league if you account anything from mid range to deeper 3s, contested or uncontested. No one can make more jacked up, horrible shots better than Kobe besides a select few Pick and roll: bad defending it, bad executing it There are other skills I can't remember off the top of my head like I could these. Basically some years ago Kobe could claim he was top 5 in almost all of these for his position which would make him arguably the most skilled player in the league, but skills deteriorate with age as others get better and you lose the ability to commit effort to these things due to failing athleticism and stamina. Kobe is not the most skilled player in the league which, laughably, wasn't even your original statement. Your original statement was that he was the best player in the league, which is even more false because this allows us to factor in things that aren't purely skill related like jumping ability, ability to run breaks, blocking ability, run down defense etc etc, all of which he's definitively below average at. edit: also don't pull the "He works harder than everyone" mumbo jumbo. That's not even a skill nor is it provable. Read up on the definition of skills. Then go back and read my sentence about no one working harder and longer | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 07 2013 11:59 MassHysteria wrote: Read up on the definition of skills. Then go back and read my sentence about no one working harder and longer Skills are learned abilities. All of the things I listed are things players can learn and improve on that isn't predicated solely on their athleticism. Kobe isn't even in the ball park of the most skilled players in the league because he basically eschews the entire defensive spectrum of the board and does not care for shot selection or passing, which are probably the most important offensive skills besides shooting ability. I guess your definition of "Skills" are "things Kobe Bryant is good at" because that's the only way Kobe Bryant is the most skilled player in the league. | ||
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MassHysteria
United States3678 Posts
As for people saying defense, no this isn't included. Because how can you quantify defensive skill in this? Defensive schemes have changed throughout Kobe's career. When Kobe came into the league, it wasn't what it is now. The schemes that teams are running now have really only taken a trend somewhat late into Kobe's career. You guys are judging his defense in the last few years (since 2008/09 when modern defenses started changing) compared to other players in teams running a great defensive system. Well those players are in their prime athletically. One other thing about Kobe that might not be so obvious is how smart/intellectual he is about the game. When he has been able to play great defense for a whole game, he take days to recover because of his age. He can't do it anymore. It would be interesting to ask him if in his mind, he tries to take plays off/rest on defense in order to conserve his energy for offense and to carry the team. At least for this past season's end stretch. I wouldn't put it past him. edit: and no, I didn't read your made-up list of what you perceive to be skills. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On August 07 2013 12:09 MassHysteria wrote: How can you guys not say he is the most skilled? It is just kinda laughable that you disagree if you think about it. Like does your hate run that deep? I am not even a Kobe fan really.. As for people saying defense, no this isn't included. Because how can you quantify defensive skill in this? Defensive schemes have changed throughout Kobe's career. When Kobe came into the league, it wasn't what it is now. The schemes that teams are running now have really only taken a trend somewhat late into Kobe's career. You guys are judging his defense in the last few years (since 2008/09 when modern defenses started changing) compared to other players in teams running a great defensive system. Well those players are in their prime athletically. One other thing about Kobe that might not be so obvious is how smart/intellectual he is about the game. When he has been able to play great defense for a whole game, he take days to recover because of his age. He can't do it anymore. It would be interesting to ask him if in his mind, he tries to take plays off/rest on defense in order to conserve his energy for offense and to carry the team. At least for this past season's end stretch. I wouldn't put it past him. So because a skill became harder to learn, that gives Kobe a pass for being bad at it and it no longer qualifies as a skill? There are many great defenders who aren't incredibly athletic, you know this, right? If Kobe works so long and hard why do changing schemes affect him so much? I'd also like to know which schemes you're talking about because it sounds to me like you're just using a buzzword. Give me some defensive sets that went from vogue in the time spans you indicated to what replaced them. It has nothing to do with Kobe hate. He is definitively less skilled at many, many skill based aspects of the game relative to elite players both in the league and at the guard position. For instance, shot selection and passing ability aren't heavily reliant on athleticism (obviously you need some degree of athleticism to do ANYTHING in the NBA but we're working on degrees here), and Kobe isn't top 10 at either of those, right? And they're both skills, and they're both offensive, all the things that Kobe should be the best at but isn't if you want to say he's the most skilled. It's preposterous. | ||
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