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On September 22 2012 02:27 Hanakurena wrote:
Research lunatic? Maybe just straight out lunatic. Let's listen to the people who actually did the research rather than have a eat big power lifter cherry pick some stuff and spoon fed it to us.
Also, singling out soy because of phytoestrogens because vegetarians eat them is silly. It is in many many plant foods. You are gonna eat plant foods, that are healthier because they are low fat, and get some phytoestrogens that protect you from cancer or are you gonna eat high fat high meat loaded with true functional pig/cow hormones that are gonna trigger your hormone pathways?
[edit] haha he compares people that promote eating soy over meat to Goebbels.
What part of 'don't take this shit from general discussion to this sub-forum don't you get? Don't come here to pick arguments. If you feel like vegan is superior, then good for you.
On-topic: I realised that my conditioning is awful nowadays, so I want to start doing sprints (+some crossfit esque stuff, burpees etc) twice a week. Wendler is really against sprints before a lower body day though, so on Madcows I'm fucked. Would I be ok switching to 5/3/1 BBB again (4 times a week instead of 3) and then doing conditioning twice a week? Or is this increase in volume too sudden?
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On September 22 2012 02:27 Hanakurena wrote:
Research lunatic? Maybe just straight out lunatic. Let's listen to the people who actually did the research rather than have a eat big power lifter cherry pick some stuff and spoon fed it to us.
Also, singling out soy because of phytoestrogens because vegetarians eat them is silly. It is in many many plant foods. You are gonna eat plant foods, that are healthier because they are low fat, and get some phytoestrogens that protect you from cancer or are you gonna eat high fat high meat loaded with true functional pig/cow hormones that are gonna trigger your hormone pathways?
[edit] haha he compares people that promote eating soy over meat to Goebbels.
What do you mean by trigger hormone pathways?
And phytoestrogens prevent cancer? Are there any side effects?
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On September 22 2012 02:39 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 02:27 Hanakurena wrote:
Research lunatic? Maybe just straight out lunatic. Let's listen to the people who actually did the research rather than have a eat big power lifter cherry pick some stuff and spoon fed it to us.
Also, singling out soy because of phytoestrogens because vegetarians eat them is silly. It is in many many plant foods. You are gonna eat plant foods, that are healthier because they are low fat, and get some phytoestrogens that protect you from cancer or are you gonna eat high fat high meat loaded with true functional pig/cow hormones that are gonna trigger your hormone pathways?
[edit] haha he compares people that promote eating soy over meat to Goebbels. What part of 'don't take this shit from general discussion to this sub-forum don't you get? Don't come here to pick arguments. If you feel like vegan is superior, then good for you. On-topic: I realised that my conditioning is awful nowadays, so I want to start doing sprints (+some crossfit esque stuff, burpees etc) twice a week. Wendler is really against sprints before a lower body day though, so on Madcows I'm fucked. Would I be ok switching to 5/3/1 BBB again (4 times a week instead of 3) and then doing conditioning twice a week? Or is this increase in volume too sudden?
Didn't Wendler say in his book he was all for sprints on lower body days? I remember his reasoning being increased testosterone in people doing hillsprints or something
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On September 22 2012 02:39 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:
On-topic: I realised that my conditioning is awful nowadays, so I want to start doing sprints (+some crossfit esque stuff, burpees etc) twice a week. Wendler is really against sprints before a lower body day though, so on Madcows I'm fucked. Would I be ok switching to 5/3/1 BBB again (4 times a week instead of 3) and then doing conditioning twice a week? Or is this increase in volume too sudden?
I'd just work it in and see how you do with recovery, maybe gently ease in with 1 day of conditioning type stuff a week then adding on to that 
In other news, shoulder's better and I got to lift yesterday, and this morning the DOMS, oh the fucking DOMS it feels so good :D
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On September 22 2012 02:15 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 01:23 YoucriedWolf wrote:On September 22 2012 00:06 GoTuNk! wrote:On September 21 2012 23:18 YoucriedWolf wrote:On September 21 2012 22:47 JingleHell wrote:On September 21 2012 22:34 YoucriedWolf wrote:
From a tlhf and philosofical standpoint I'm more embarassed by the meat eaters rationale (or lack thereof). I don't understand whats so offending to you, if I'm interpreting your sentiments correctly and you think that the vegan side appear stupid. I think both sides (of the people who are voicing their opinions in the thread) appear stupid. If everyone in an argument is insane, who's ahead? The guy doing the right thing for the wrong reason, or the guy doing the wrong thing for the wrong reason? That's ignoring the two most valid reasons for vege/vegan diets, ethics and individual health concerns. (Note, I'm not saying 'I read on Facebook that being a Vegan is good for me' health concerns, I'm talking if someone has a medical condition that precludes good healthy meat and animal fat). Now regarding ethics, I think most of the arguments people make there are silly, but it's an opinion thing, and they're welcome to have their opinion, no matter how insane I think it is. That's without having suffered through the thread's current incarnation. I know how they go. I think that's jumping ahead in conclusions. A bad argument with faulty reasoning will give me a headache even if the person is "right" without knowing it. Besides I'm not convinced that meat eating is "right" even if it inevitably will be, because how could religiously excluding things from your diet be right (from an entierly dietary viewpoint) ever be right if you know a 100% what your doing. We know meat is not doing more harm than good so the best way for someone with the right knowledge would obviously be to adjust their meat consumption to the optimal amount and not exclude it as an axiom. BUT you could also use the "any diet is better than no diet" argument as veg's are more often forced to look in to nutritional facts and educate themselfs. I feel like the veg strongcards are the factual aspects that can actually be mesured and most people would agree are good for us i.e. conservation of energy and environment (granted that these are only sound in theory and become super flimsy when applied to the very complicated real world, easy example the world economy would colapse if we banned animal consumption). As you say the ethical arguments are tiresome to read and dont amount to anything, but surprisingly I see these more (only on internet) from meat eaters than vegs. Not preaching, I eat meat. I think the general concesus here is that the moral/enviromental vegan argument could be valid, but there is just no solid evidence at the moment for them. And that some respect the religious decision, I don't. My opinion is that there are tons of shit wrong with this world, and banning a food group is not gonna solve them. I mean, if we are gonna start forbiddin stuff for not being efficient, we would start with booze, cigars. Good luck with that, now go with meat. Anyone with even a bit of logic knows the drawbacks will be ten times greater than the benefits. For that thing I also think the conservation of energy and enviromental protection is hoghwash, there is tons of "useless" crap being produced all over the war (excess clothes, furnitures, shitty plastic figures etc). Closing them is obv out of question, but for argument's sake would be much more coherent than forbidding meat, That said, what bothers us here is people saying not eating meat is healthy and/or that we evolved to not eat meat, cause both arguments are a pile of horseshit. I also personally dislike vegans who poison themselves with soy and try to poison others with it, telling them its healthy. I've read too much chaos and pains, cause I'm starting to despise vegans lol. I feel like its unnecessary to diminish the vegan points to an world wide ban on animal consumption because not a lot of vegans are actually activly arguing that and those who do are simply not resonable. What could be done though is to remove all the subventions that developed contries provide for the market. Because of the high energy consumption meat is ridiculously expensive we just don't ever see the cost in that because it's subsidized on sooo many levels, we pay for it in taxes. This, unlike the other industries of clothes, furnitures etc which are generally dictated by the market. Energy conservation is just as simple as the law of energy efficency, every time you feed something ~90% of the energy will dissipate through movement, heat release etc. Could you link me something about the ill of soy? I have never been able to find anything I deem conclusive data. Although I admit I haven't made this a life quest of mine. Wikipedia speaks well of it. Despite his informal wording, this guy is a research lunatic and everything he writes is troughfully cited and backed up. Very NSFW and disturbing images. http://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/09/soy-is-devil-and-not-in-fun-way.htmlhttp://chaosandpain.blogspot.com/2010/09/soy-is-devil-and-not-in-fun-way-22-12.htmlLess funny shorter research http://www.liftbigeatbig.com/2011/10/top-3-reasons-avoid-soy-products.html
Pretty much echos everything I've already read it just provides no incitament to believe it over the pro-soy side which is dominant on wikipedia and I dont have time or even need to go over every single source in all articles.
But I know this is the case with all nutritional facts, you can choose to believe whatever you want to believe in on the internet there is always ammunition for both sides so I don't know what golden goose I'm chasing here. I don't even eat soy because I lable it as "sketchy" (not to mention that there is nothing you need from soy) but my two most empirical and sceptical points against anti-soy is
1. I've eaten more soy during the four years when I were a vegan than any person should ever eat during a lifetime and I have litteraly not one bad thing to show for it. If anything my body was working better back then but this is only about minor things like digestion and such which I don't have a probelm with now either. I don't feel any different now from what I did then.
2. They make a big deal about phytoestrogens while failing to mention that their go-to most fundamental nutritional supplement aka cow's milk contains pure estrogen. If it was such a big deal to them I can't help but feel that this would be talked about. I have never heard anyone mention this ever.
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On September 22 2012 02:39 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 02:27 Hanakurena wrote:
Research lunatic? Maybe just straight out lunatic. Let's listen to the people who actually did the research rather than have a eat big power lifter cherry pick some stuff and spoon fed it to us.
Also, singling out soy because of phytoestrogens because vegetarians eat them is silly. It is in many many plant foods. You are gonna eat plant foods, that are healthier because they are low fat, and get some phytoestrogens that protect you from cancer or are you gonna eat high fat high meat loaded with true functional pig/cow hormones that are gonna trigger your hormone pathways?
[edit] haha he compares people that promote eating soy over meat to Goebbels. What part of 'don't take this shit from general discussion to this sub-forum don't you get? Don't come here to pick arguments. If you feel like vegan is superior, then good for you. On-topic: I realised that my conditioning is awful nowadays, so I want to start doing sprints (+some crossfit esque stuff, burpees etc) twice a week. Wendler is really against sprints before a lower body day though, so on Madcows I'm fucked. Would I be ok switching to 5/3/1 BBB again (4 times a week instead of 3) and then doing conditioning twice a week? Or is this increase in volume too sudden?
531 is no increase in volume, only an increase in frequency. You basically end up doing less squatting and pressing of heavy weights than on Madcow. Of course, in terms of pure reps this is not the case when doing BBB. But these 5x10 sets are at such low percentages, they are more or less pure hypertrophy orientated (hence the name BBB).
And doing sprints etc. after your heavy lifting is probably much better than doing it before the workout, so if you have the flexibility in your schedule, it should not be a problem. Though personally, after heavy deadlifts I would be afraid to injure myself doing sprints. Squatting should be ok from personal experience.
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On September 22 2012 04:25 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 02:39 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:On September 22 2012 02:27 Hanakurena wrote:
Research lunatic? Maybe just straight out lunatic. Let's listen to the people who actually did the research rather than have a eat big power lifter cherry pick some stuff and spoon fed it to us.
Also, singling out soy because of phytoestrogens because vegetarians eat them is silly. It is in many many plant foods. You are gonna eat plant foods, that are healthier because they are low fat, and get some phytoestrogens that protect you from cancer or are you gonna eat high fat high meat loaded with true functional pig/cow hormones that are gonna trigger your hormone pathways?
[edit] haha he compares people that promote eating soy over meat to Goebbels. What part of 'don't take this shit from general discussion to this sub-forum don't you get? Don't come here to pick arguments. If you feel like vegan is superior, then good for you. On-topic: I realised that my conditioning is awful nowadays, so I want to start doing sprints (+some crossfit esque stuff, burpees etc) twice a week. Wendler is really against sprints before a lower body day though, so on Madcows I'm fucked. Would I be ok switching to 5/3/1 BBB again (4 times a week instead of 3) and then doing conditioning twice a week? Or is this increase in volume too sudden? 531 is no increase in volume, only an increase in frequency. You basically end up doing less squatting and pressing of heavy weights than on Madcow. Of course, in terms of pure reps this is not the case when doing BBB. But these 5x10 sets are at such low percentages, they are more or less pure hypertrophy orientated (hence the name BBB). And doing sprints etc. after your heavy lifting is probably much better than doing it before the workout, so if you have the flexibility in your schedule, it should not be a problem. Though personally, after heavy deadlifts I would be afraid to injure myself doing sprints. Squatting should be ok from personal experience.
I have also been afraid of doing sprints after deadlifts, instead I run a fast 5k. On rest days I sometimes run a relaxed 5k, or do running drills (high-knees, carioca, running backwards ect ect.). Sprinting I only do the day before 2x restday. Like today where I have saturday and sunday off, I did heavy squatting and ran 10x100m sprints.
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On September 22 2012 02:19 mordek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2012 01:30 KOVU wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17413102 - "Consumption of fluid skim milk promotes greater muscle protein accretion after resistance exercise than does consumption of an isonitrogenous and isoenergetic soy-protein beverage." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17684208 - "Consumption of fat-free fluid milk after resistance exercise promotes greater lean mass accretion than does consumption of soy or carbohydrate in young, novice, male weightlifters." Neither of these studies show that soy is bad for your health, they only show how milk is better for building muscle than soy. Also how do you guys feel about running after squatting/other heavy weightlifting? I absolutely love running so I run every now and then, usually 3-4 times a week. Today I did sprints after a heavy squatting session and it felt really good. I know it is most likely holding back some progress in the squat, but I just love running so bad. If you love it and still making acceptable progress (to you) on your squats I can't see why not. Sprinting is good for you.
Agreed. If it's worth it to you to sacrifice a little bit of progress because you actually enjoy running, go ahead and do it. Maybe eat a little more to make up the difference. Personally, I go to rugby practice either right before or right after I lift, and last semester I was doing lifeguarding classes in addition to rugby - which meant I was getting Sprinting, weightlifting, and then low intensity cardio (half hour to an hour of treading water) all in the same day. I never felt better, and even though I didn't make much progress, I still made some.
On September 22 2012 02:27 Hanakurena wrote:
Research lunatic? Maybe just straight out lunatic. Let's listen to the people who actually did the research rather than have a eat big power lifter cherry pick some stuff and spoon fed it to us.
Also, singling out soy because of phytoestrogens because vegetarians eat them is silly. It is in many many plant foods. You are gonna eat plant foods, that are healthier because they are low fat, and get some phytoestrogens that protect you from cancer or are you gonna eat high fat high meat loaded with true functional pig/cow hormones that are gonna trigger your hormone pathways?
[edit] haha he compares people that promote eating soy over meat to Goebbels.
Every diet or exercise claim that Jamie makes, he cites properly. If you don't want to listen to him, that's fine, but you can't deny that his shit is solid, well supported. Also, Lift big eat big != Chaos and Pain. Very different writers, very different audiences, very different messages.
And yes, Jamie is hilarious.
Also check out 70'sbig if you feel like laughing more. It's different humor, but it's still good.
http://70sbig.com/blog/2012/08/vegetarians-are-great/
On September 21 2012 22:34 YoucriedWolf wrote:
From a tlhf and philosofical standpoint I'm more embarassed by the meat eaters rationale (or lack thereof). I don't understand whats so offending to you, if I'm interpreting your sentiments correctly and you think that the vegan side appear stupid. I think both sides (of the people who are voicing their opinions in the thread) appear stupid.
I have no problems and no argument against ethical vegetarianism or veganism. As far as I'm concerned, if you think it's wrong to kill a cow or chicken and then eat it, you're free to think that way. I don't agree.
What I do have a problem with is someone telling another person to go vegan or vegetarian because it's "healthier" than eating meat, eggs or dairy, when it's quite clearly not so.
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You'll be fine your body will adapt. I do 20 minutes of sprints/conditioning three times a week at practice in addition to squatting/oly lifting three times a week. You might get sore but fuck it pain don't hurt and how your body feels is a lie.
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On September 22 2012 04:02 YoucriedWolf wrote:
Pretty much echos everything I've already read it just provides no incitament to believe it over the pro-soy side which is dominant on wikipedia and I dont have time or even need to go over every single source in all articles.
But I know this is the case with all nutritional facts, you can choose to believe whatever you want to believe in on the internet there is always ammunition for both sides so I don't know what golden goose I'm chasing here. I don't even eat soy because I lable it as "sketchy" (not to mention that there is nothing you need from soy) but my two most empirical and sceptical points against anti-soy is
1. I've eaten more soy during the four years when I were a vegan than any person should ever eat during a lifetime and I have litteraly not one bad thing to show for it. If anything my body was working better back then but this is only about minor things like digestion and such which I don't have a probelm with now either. I don't feel any different now from what I did then.
2. They make a big deal about phytoestrogens while failing to mention that their go-to most fundamental nutritional supplement aka cow's milk contains pure estrogen. If it was such a big deal to them I can't help but feel that this would be talked about. I have never heard anyone mention this ever.
You are right as mainstrean science has the truth nailed down pretty well through their research.
It's just that heavy meat eaters, who feel vegans are pussies, felt insecure and they somehow stumbled upon phytoestrogens and somehow figured it would make a good counter-argument.
This "soy gave me man-boobs" is so hilarious.
Soy was apparently picked out because vegetarians or vegans may be eating it eventhough beer, a truly manly 'food', has plenty of phytoestrogens as well, as have many many plant foods.
And this all besides phytoestrogens effect in the human body, which is limited for obvious reasons, only being positive.
The fact that the no.1 most suspect food hormone-wise is an animal product doesn't seem to worry them at all. It's such a bad argument if you actually know something but apparenly so appealing to some people at the same time.
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OK if you must have this argument here, could you stop strawmanning? Nobody is going to take you seriously if you begin by drawing a charicature of your opposition. OK?
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On September 22 2012 06:40 Osmoses wrote:
OK if you must have this argument here, could you stop strawmanning? Nobody is going to take you seriously if you begin by drawing a charicature of your opposition. OK?
I don't think he knows what logical fallacies are and doesn't realize he isn't making coherent arguments.
Also, I'm a big fan of him saying cherry picking when he doesn't even provide studies... haha. If his arguments are so superior he should be able to provide evidence... which hasn't happened in any single one of the threads he's posted in so far.
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I'm open to other sides of an argument, but it's just so grating to read 
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How about we ignore the hanakurena. He shits up every single thread in the H&F forum....
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Zurich15366 Posts
On September 22 2012 06:40 Osmoses wrote:
OK if you must have this argument here, could you stop strawmanning? Nobody is going to take you seriously if you begin by drawing a charicature of your opposition. OK?
This a hundred times.
But everyone else, it would be healthier (ha!) for this forum if you just ignored people who are unable to engage in meaningful discussion.
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Blame the moderators for moderating badly. By picking sides, they let the one side, which happened to be the established point here, get away with not arguing properly and insulting the opposition.
User was banned for this post.
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The dogma must stay alive! Burn them all!
I really want to get my 8th rep for chin-ups in today. That is my goal for september (one rep more each month until I can do 10 consecutive chin-ups). I should have been good for it last week, but for some unknown reason my weight went up above 110kg for one day, and I just felt tired. But this morning I am at 107kg flat, so that should help. Though I did 5 sets of Wall-Handstands yesterday and I am not entirely sure how much this carries over to chin-ups. Well, I'll hope for the best.
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On September 22 2012 15:55 Hanakurena wrote:
Blame the moderators for moderating badly. By picking sides, they let the one side, which happened to be the established point here, get away with not arguing properly and insulting the opposition.
How are we not arguing properly, we've posted our studies, you haven't posted jack in return. The only bad moderating I can see is the fact that you're still doing this after getting banned for it once; for the love of god a) post in the nutrition thread b) post some research to back up your statements.
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On September 22 2012 12:43 AoN.DimSum wrote:
How about we ignore the hanakurena. He shits up every single thread in the H&F forum....
As much as I'm inclined to agree to this, he actually has some pretty good contributions to the running thread :D
In other news I have no self control and did a terrible binge eat last night T.T I can't tell if I have shitty self control or if I have a problem /sigh oh wells
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EPT
