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General Training Recommendations - Page 3

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eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
January 31 2013 18:07 GMT
#41
Yep longus colli and other muscles like that.

Generally speaking, will improve if you have better posture but its always good from a postural perspective to strengthen weaker muscles
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
Deadeight
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom1629 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-10 09:44:11
March 10 2013 09:36 GMT
#42
I'm obviously not a coach or anything, which is in fact the cause of this issue, but I have some criticisms of SS. I've started about 10 people on SS.

First off is cleans. In my opinion it's a dumb exercise to give an absolute beginner to strength training, at least if there's no coach to teach them how to do it. Every time I've given SS to someone I've linked the california strength Pendlay videos, and set them loose with all the info. With one exception it's been pretty disastrous.

The people from rugby who'd already done a bit or training were slightly better, and one friend who plays centre has really taken to them and he's pretty impressive at them. But, I've seen a front row who is nowhere near able to do a front rack stand up, then basically do a 70kg barbell front raise, then take all the weight on bent wrists not even close to his shoulders. He's a smart guy but it wasn't hurting so he thought there was no issue, I think it's easy to forget that the stuff that seems common sense to us was probably just learned/read at some stage. I've also seen another guy from my course do the sketchiest clean ever because he still can't squat without his knees wobbling.

I don't workout with these people, they're just people who asked me for a routine and I left them to it. I kind of feel that it's a bad idea to put cleans in a beginner program, or at least absolute beginner, so I've been recommending barbell rows in their place (i.e. StrongLifts basically).

You ask them to learn the squat, which to a lot of people feels alien. And then they need to learn the DL which is not done like a squat. Then you're asking them to learn the clean which is not deadlifted up, even though they're trying to drill the DL movement into their heads, oh and when you clean you need to forget any low bar squat form you learned as you now need to bring your knees forwards not your hips so far back.

To be honest with people who are new to the gym I don't even want to recommend bench straight away. I'm inclined to say just
  • Squat
  • OHP
  • Chin-Up (or row if they can't chin)

5x5 three times a week. I would have thought OHP will carry them for months before they start bench, and I'm increasingly convinced you can get a good DL just from improving your squat (apart from form).


I'd appreciate someone telling me why I'm wrong! As I said I'm no coach and I seem to disagree with Rippetoe and the whole of the internet on this, so I'm probably the one who's wrong.
phyre112
Profile Joined August 2009
United States3090 Posts
March 10 2013 10:38 GMT
#43
On March 10 2013 18:36 Deadeight wrote:
I'm obviously not a coach or anything, which is in fact the cause of this issue, but I have some criticisms of SS. I've started about 10 people on SS.

First off is cleans. In my opinion it's a dumb exercise to give an absolute beginner to strength training, at least if there's no coach to teach them how to do it. Every time I've given SS to someone I've linked the california strength Pendlay videos, and set them loose with all the info. With one exception it's been pretty disastrous.

The people from rugby who'd already done a bit or training were slightly better, and one friend who plays centre has really taken to them and he's pretty impressive at them. But, I've seen a front row who is nowhere near able to do a front rack stand up, then basically do a 70kg barbell front raise, then take all the weight on bent wrists not even close to his shoulders. He's a smart guy but it wasn't hurting so he thought there was no issue, I think it's easy to forget that the stuff that seems common sense to us was probably just learned/read at some stage. I've also seen another guy from my course do the sketchiest clean ever because he still can't squat without his knees wobbling.

I don't workout with these people, they're just people who asked me for a routine and I left them to it. I kind of feel that it's a bad idea to put cleans in a beginner program, or at least absolute beginner, so I've been recommending barbell rows in their place (i.e. StrongLifts basically).

You ask them to learn the squat, which to a lot of people feels alien. And then they need to learn the DL which is not done like a squat. Then you're asking them to learn the clean which is not deadlifted up, even though they're trying to drill the DL movement into their heads, oh and when you clean you need to forget any low bar squat form you learned as you now need to bring your knees forwards not your hips so far back.

To be honest with people who are new to the gym I don't even want to recommend bench straight away. I'm inclined to say just
  • Squat
  • OHP
  • Chin-Up (or row if they can't chin)

5x5 three times a week. I would have thought OHP will carry them for months before they start bench, and I'm increasingly convinced you can get a good DL just from improving your squat (apart from form).


I'd appreciate someone telling me why I'm wrong! As I said I'm no coach and I seem to disagree with Rippetoe and the whole of the internet on this, so I'm probably the one who's wrong.


you don't disagree with the whole internet on this. You disagree with thousands of BB.com members who probably haven't been lifting more than 6 months, and hordes of redditors that can't actually squat their own body weight.

the main criticisms of SS are the low bar squat vs. clean vs. deadlift problem (hell, I was deadlifting wrong for over a YEAR) and the lack of emphasis on pulling. There's way more focus on bench (and to a lesser extent press) than on pulling in the opposing directions, even though most new lifters are going to have that problem, mentally, anyway.

Plus the whole "get fat to get your lifts up" issue.
NeedsmoreCELLTECH
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Netherlands1242 Posts
March 31 2013 19:37 GMT
#44
Yeah, the get fat to get your lifts up and rejection of anything that isn't low-rep compounds are big flaws I feel like. And judging by how happy /r/fitness people get over someone gaining 20 pounds (and still looking skinny and unathletic) I doubt most do what they say. I've had success letting people follow SS with lat pulldowns for 3 months and then have them lift 4x a week with 3x3-5 reps of a compound, 2 exercises at 3x8-12 and 2 exercises of vanity work (biceps/triceps abs). Wish I'd done it like that.
Get huge or die mirin | Diamond on LoL
phyre112
Profile Joined August 2009
United States3090 Posts
April 01 2013 06:32 GMT
#45
On April 01 2013 04:37 NeedsmoreCELLTECH wrote:
Yeah, the get fat to get your lifts up and rejection of anything that isn't low-rep compounds are big flaws I feel like. And judging by how happy /r/fitness people get over someone gaining 20 pounds (and still looking skinny and unathletic) I doubt most do what they say. I've had success letting people follow SS with lat pulldowns for 3 months and then have them lift 4x a week with 3x3-5 reps of a compound, 2 exercises at 3x8-12 and 2 exercises of vanity work (biceps/triceps abs). Wish I'd done it like that.


I've "trained" a half dozen guys over the past few years using SS or SL-type routines, and each of them quit going to the gym within 2 months of starting. It was just boring - they did the same thing every day, weren't seeing any progress in directions that they cared about (looking good, not just pulling big weights) and were sore/tired all the time, because they didn't want to eat enough to get fat.

I've currently got two guys on push/pull routines, and they're having a great time. We mix strength and hypertrophy work, and the guys see progress on both their lifts, and in the mirror. When one is slacking, the other is moving up, and there's always something to keep them motivated. I'm learning very quickly as I branch out in weight lifting that the best program isn't necessarily the 'best program' - it's the program that you'll best commit to.
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
April 01 2013 16:09 GMT
#46
since we're on the topic, has anyone thought of adding in other programs to this sticky for people who aren't just looking to get their big 3 lifts up?
MtlGuitarist97
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States1539 Posts
April 01 2013 19:09 GMT
#47
And following up on ieatkids' question, are there any programs you guys recommend that use dumbbells/any other equipment other than your body and barbells?
Smancer
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States379 Posts
April 01 2013 19:18 GMT
#48
On April 02 2013 04:09 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
And following up on ieatkids' question, are there any programs you guys recommend that use dumbbells/any other equipment other than your body and barbells?


Check the stickies.
A good way to threaten somebody is to light a stick of dynamite. Then you call the guy and hold the burning fuse up to the phone. "Hear that?" you say. "That's dynamite, baby."
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-01 21:18:10
April 01 2013 21:17 GMT
#49
On April 02 2013 04:09 MtlGuitarist97 wrote:
And following up on ieatkids' question, are there any programs you guys recommend that use dumbbells/any other equipment other than your body and barbells?

you can always do SL 5x5 or SS's 3x5 program using dumbbells. the only exercises you'll have difficulty doing are squats and deadlifts. just find something to substitute those if you really cant get access to a barbell and rack. like pistols + core work for squats. db deadlifts + core work for barbell deadlifts.
Recognizable
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Netherlands1552 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-18 13:45:52
April 18 2013 13:39 GMT
#50
On March 10 2013 18:36 Deadeight wrote:
I'm obviously not a coach or anything, which is in fact the cause of this issue, but I have some criticisms of SS. I've started about 10 people on SS.

First off is cleans. In my opinion it's a dumb exercise to give an absolute beginner to strength training, at least if there's no coach to teach them how to do it. Every time I've given SS to someone I've linked the california strength Pendlay videos, and set them loose with all the info. With one exception it's been pretty disastrous.

The people from rugby who'd already done a bit or training were slightly better, and one friend who plays centre has really taken to them and he's pretty impressive at them. But, I've seen a front row who is nowhere near able to do a front rack stand up, then basically do a 70kg barbell front raise, then take all the weight on bent wrists not even close to his shoulders. He's a smart guy but it wasn't hurting so he thought there was no issue, I think it's easy to forget that the stuff that seems common sense to us was probably just learned/read at some stage. I've also seen another guy from my course do the sketchiest clean ever because he still can't squat without his knees wobbling.

I don't workout with these people, they're just people who asked me for a routine and I left them to it. I kind of feel that it's a bad idea to put cleans in a beginner program, or at least absolute beginner, so I've been recommending barbell rows in their place (i.e. StrongLifts basically).

You ask them to learn the squat, which to a lot of people feels alien. And then they need to learn the DL which is not done like a squat. Then you're asking them to learn the clean which is not deadlifted up, even though they're trying to drill the DL movement into their heads, oh and when you clean you need to forget any low bar squat form you learned as you now need to bring your knees forwards not your hips so far back.

To be honest with people who are new to the gym I don't even want to recommend bench straight away. I'm inclined to say just
  • Squat
  • OHP
  • Chin-Up (or row if they can't chin)

5x5 three times a week. I would have thought OHP will carry them for months before they start bench, and I'm increasingly convinced you can get a good DL just from improving your squat (apart from form).


I'd appreciate someone telling me why I'm wrong! As I said I'm no coach and I seem to disagree with Rippetoe and the whole of the internet on this, so I'm probably the one who's wrong.


I follow a modified beginner SS program which is close to what you suggested:

Monday
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench press / Press (Alternating)
Chin-ups: 3 sets to failure or add weight if completing more than 15 reps
Wednesday
3x5 Squat
3x5 Press / Bench Press (Alternating)
1x5 Deadlift
Friday
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press / Press (Alternating)
Pull-ups: 3 sets to failure or add weight if completing more than 15 reps


I'm thinking however on doing something for my upperbody on wednesday instead of the squat and/or deadlift. Little bit too much lowerbody work on wednesday imo. Any suggestions? Maybe Chin/Pull?
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
April 18 2013 18:31 GMT
#51
you could do some sort of horizontal pulling exercise, since you don't have any of that. barbell or dumbbell rows maybe.
Recognizable
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Netherlands1552 Posts
April 20 2013 19:18 GMT
#52
On April 19 2013 03:31 ieatkids5 wrote:
you could do some sort of horizontal pulling exercise, since you don't have any of that. barbell or dumbbell rows maybe.


What about dips?
phyre112
Profile Joined August 2009
United States3090 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-20 22:03:56
April 20 2013 21:56 GMT
#53
+ Show Spoiler +
Push Day:

1. Flat BB Bench 3x3-5.
Progress each workout.
3-5 Minutes between sets.

2. Shoulder Assistance - Choose 1-2.
2-3 Minutes between sets.
Incline BB Bench 3x5-8
Incline DB Bench 3x8-12
(Weighted) Dips 3x5-8
Close Grip BB Bench Press 3x5-8

3. Tricep Isolation - Choose 1-2.
Do what you can.
1-2 Minutes between sets.
Rope Pressdown 3x10
(Weighted) Bench Dips 3x10
French Press 3x10
Reverse Grip Bench Press 3x10

4. Front Squat 3x3-5.
Aim for linear progression.
3-5 Minutes between sets.

5. Quads Assistance - Choose 1.
Leg Press 3x8-12
Leg Extension 3x8-12
Lunges 3x5-8


Pull:

1. (Weighted) Chinups 3x5-8
progress each workout.
3-5 Minutes between sets.

2. Upper Back Assistance - Choose 1-2.
2-3 Minutes between sets.
Pullups 3x5-8
V-bar pulldowns 3x8-12
Bench DB rows 3x8-12
Pendlay Row 3x5-8

3. Biceps Isolation - Choose 1.
Do what you can
1-2 minutes between sets.
Preacher Curl 3x10
Atn. Dumbbell Curl 3x10
Hammer Curl 3x10
BB Curl 3x10

4. Deadlift 3 sets ramping to top set of 5.
Increase no less than 10% of top weight per set.
Aim for linear progression.
3-5 minutes between set.

5. General Deadlift Assistance - Choose 1
Speed Deadlift 5x3
Power Clean 5x3
Deficit Deadlift 5x3
Snatch Grip Deadlift 5x3

5. Low Back Assistance - Choose 1
Reverse Hyperextension 3x10
(Weighted) Hyperextension w/ Pause 3x10
Bent Knee Good Morning 3x10

5. Glutes Assistance - Choose 1
BB Hip Thrust 3x10
Bulgarian Split Squat 3x10

5. Hamstring Assistance - Choose 1
Single leg Prone Hamstring Curl 3x10
RDL 3x10


This is the "template" for the routine I'm using with guys right now (4 of them). It's done as an AxBx repeat split, meaning 7 workouts every two weeks. Each one of them are skinny as hell, so this is a routine they're using to bulk. Their goals are all to look better (for now) - but I hope that one of them will change their mind on that. The progression is... difficult right now. Two of the guys still aren't flexible enough to get a straight back on the deadlift, and I've just recently changed them all from back squats to front squats because front squats seem MUCH easier to learn, and because none of them particularly care about being able to squat 140kg.

To find starting weights we usually go with the SS first workout - take the exercise, do it for 5. Add weight, do 5 more. Repeat until bar speed begins to slow down, this is the weight for workout 1. It's still very easy to overestimate this weight, because with someone who's truly new... they're not going to bench more than 60-65 pounds, if that. The second exercise, if it's similar enough (incline with flat bench for example) is done off a percentage of the first lift. If they aren't similar (squats and leg extensions) then it's partly the previous pattern, and partly a guessing game (which I turned out to be pretty good at.)

The listed exercises are just examples - anything that properly targets the given area as a priority can be done in their place, those are just some good exercises to do the job. We do a lot of talking about how the goal, every day is to increase our two compounds (bench and front squat for push, Weighted chins and Deadlifts for Pull) and that the rest is to help accomplish that goal and to help you look good naked. The deadlift assistance, only one exercise is performed, it's just that you pick whichever body part appears to be the "weak" point. If it seems like none of it is particularly bad, and it's just a strength problem, speed pulls/power cleans are used. Abs work and HIIT cardio (if desired/appropriate) are done on the off day, but I discourage doing so until at least 2 months in. We usually toss an extra exercise of arms work in on friday/saturday workouts, because I know they're going out that night and everybody likes to feel like they've got a pump lol. I also do a little bit of "active recovery" on the off days, encouraging 50 pushups (spread out in sets of ~10) and 50 air squats (same) on the day before push (day after pull) and 50 inverted rows/50 box jumps with a low (~21 inch) box before pull day. Just enough to get the blood moving.

There are often specifics that I change - if someone really really really hates Chins, which happens all the time especially with overweight guys, I might have them do an underhanded row to try to simulate the action. If someone wants to build traps, or is having problems with their shoulder posture I've found high rep shrugs invaluable. If someone is more interested in being strong than big, we'll change the rep ranges and number of sets, we'll select different exercises (rows instead of chins usually, OHP or dips over incline, etc.) and have them performed in a different order. Some more advanced things include adding a failure set (ala greyskull LP - weight should be heavy enough to fail before 8 reps) changing the rest times, occasionally throwing in another exercise on one body part (Tbar rows and shrugs are both awesome) and more.


IF anyone wants to read through that wall of text, feel free. If anyone is a beginner and wants to try it out as a routine, PM me. This is a compromise on volume between "intro" BB splits and the full body training of SS/SL but it compensates with more rest time than SS/SL, and still not being too much to the point where it would be necessary to make it a 3-day bro split. This is just a general "on the first day you ever come to the gym with me, do this, then we'll personalize it" template, but since I had it I felt like posting it.
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
April 25 2013 12:55 GMT
#54
phyre, for what my opinion's worth, i think that's a great program for most guys. most people start working out to look better and build a better physique, so it suits them better to incorporate a more BB-type routine. and it also has squats and deadlifts, which of course are essential to build a solid foundation of strength and prevent injury and imbalances. i also thought that incorporating a number of assistance exercises is good for the average dude. i know that i sometimes got bored with doing only squat/DL/bench/press/pullups, so switching it up sometimes is a great incentive to go back to the gym. going to the gym really should be an enjoyable thing, and of course, for those who can do SS/SL for 6 months without any change to increase their lifts, then excellent. but SS/SL are not for everyone.


mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
April 25 2013 12:56 GMT
#55
Phyre, I'm sure you've posted this somewhere but what do you do now if you're still skipping squats/deadlifts due to hip/back. I'm interested... progress is slow on the rehab.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
phyre112
Profile Joined August 2009
United States3090 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-25 14:10:57
April 25 2013 14:09 GMT
#56
On April 25 2013 21:56 mordek wrote:
Phyre, I'm sure you've posted this somewhere but what do you do now if you're still skipping squats/deadlifts due to hip/back. I'm interested... progress is slow on the rehab.


variety of stretches to help the rehab come along. Still doing these.

Back extensions - with a particular focus on actually contracting the spinal erectors. There's a video by glenn pendlay I can find from youtube if you want, but the general premise is that most people only hinge at the hip when they do these, and I wanted to flex/extend through my lower back. Started these with 3x10, worked up to 3x20 with a 2 second pause at the top, then started 3x10 weighted (and worked up to 20 before increasing weight)

Weighted oblique & Ab work - mostly side bends and weighted decline situps. 3x10.

Prone Single-Leg hamstring curls. (on a machine) My hip almost always popped and felt way better after doing these, so I figured why the hell not? 3x8-12.

GHR - because hamstring curls are silly, and I wanted to do a real exercise. Progressed from those to these.

Bulgarian Split Squat (weighted) (no idea why these are named the way they are.) 3x8-ish. Great glute exercise, decent quad exercise.

Leg extensions/single-leg leg presses because I had to do some quad work... never could get excited about these though, always sorta felt like going through the motions. All of the above had a "rehab" type focus to them, these were just kinda "well I can do them, so I might as well".

I've just recently started adding weight to front squats and I'm doing those regularly. I expect to add RDLs in to my routine in the next week or so. Final progression will obviously be going back to the high bar back squat, and doing deadlifts/power cleans/clean pulls.
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
May 08 2013 00:15 GMT
#57
When following the starting strength program for an overweight male, should you also be consuming a gallon of milk a day? It is recommended that "skinny" kids drink this amount, but it never really adresses nutrition information for overweight people, it just says that they will experience faster muscle gains that skinny people
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
ieatkids5
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States4628 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-08 01:31:05
May 08 2013 01:29 GMT
#58
i'm not 100% sure on this, but i'd like to take a stab at answering your question. anyone, feel free to correct or add to what i'm about to say.

for someone with a high bodyfat percentage, i would say no to gallon of milk a day, if your goal is to both lose fat and gain muscle.

SS recommends gomad to skinny people because it's easy to drink a lot of milk, and thus get a lot of calories and proteins for them to gain weight and muscle. for someone with a high bodyfat percentage, getting your proteins from something with fewer calories, like tuna, is probably a better idea. you don't need calorie-dense foods because you want to lose fat. but you also want the protein needed to gain muscle. eat lean meats instead: fish, chicken, beef, turkey, etc
mordek
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States12704 Posts
May 08 2013 16:06 GMT
#59
Yeah, gomad is for the benefit of a lot of calories in a good form without feeling like a lot of calories. You could only do the milk but I imagine that would leave you feeling very hungry Diet should just be whole/real foods, avoid grains and sugar, and try to hit a slight caloric deficit.
It is vanity to love what passes quickly and not to look ahead where eternal joy abides. Tiberius77 | Mordek #1881 "I took a mint!"
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
May 11 2013 14:14 GMT
#60
On May 08 2013 09:15 Arisen wrote:
When following the starting strength program for an overweight male, should you also be consuming a gallon of milk a day? It is recommended that "skinny" kids drink this amount, but it never really adresses nutrition information for overweight people, it just says that they will experience faster muscle gains that skinny people


No, but you should aim to get in a large amount of protein to facilitate muscle growth while you lose weight.

Get rid of all of the processed food and carbohydrates from your diet as well
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
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