EPTGeneral Training Recommendations - Page 5
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Komei
50 Posts
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
It isn't a pyramid, though. it's many different systems working together. Every exercise recruits different systems. Neurological. Muscular. Cardiovascular. Respiratory. Squats- almost purely muscular. Power cleans- muscular and neurological. Mountain climbers- Muscular, Cardio, Respi. 5k- Cardio and Respi. I read a bit about this Lydiard and you have it backwards. He got marathoners to sprint. The problem was progressive overloading. It's hard to get better at a marathon because in order to increase the load, you have to either increase volume or intensity. Volume is pointless for a marathoner, so they increased intensity. Now let's take this back to our health: Which exercise would you pick to overload your body and force it to be stronger- the exercise that has you working at 80% or the one at 60%? Again, really trying hard to not hate on running, but my problem is when people seemingly settle on running. I want people to have specific goals (they don't have to be precise to be specific, looking better naked is a goal) and then choose at least something tailored to that goal. Again, what is jogging for 30+ mins good for? Losing weight? We directly contradict each other here and I won't be able to convince you on me lonesome, but everything I have heard and seen is that the best way to lose weight is to move fast. Call it basketball, call it ultimate frisbee, call it HIIT, I don't care. You don't burn as many calories there as jogging, it's true, but the recovery and metabolic impact of it will burn much more fat over the course of the day. Remember that old adage, you don't build muscle in the gym, you build muscle the 23 hours you aren't in the gym. No, I wouldn't tell an overweight person to do sprints, either. I would tell them to play a sport for fun, one that gets them running around. That sounds like something that is a)more enjoyable b) less stressful on their joints than jogging for 30 mins. Is it better for body recomposition? Hell no. I was making a joke at my 17 yo self for looking like a marshmallow toothpick. I should carry a picture of a marathoner to show to girls on the treadmill. Is it better for sports or emergencies, or, as you say every day shit? This goes back to the overloading. If I am strong, then activities that are at a low % of my maximum capacity are trivial. Sure, lifting that 1kg dumb bell 500 times might make be decent at lifting it, but if I lift the 50kg dumb bell I will give no shits about the 1kg one. (I see there are several posts ahead of this response, I hope this isn't out of date now. EDIT: Nope, ignore the troll.) | ||
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Komei
50 Posts
As for the remainder of your post, I can't really understand. If you want to burn as many calories as possible you do it by burning a lot of them. That and eating less is how you lose weight. But you don't believe that became you have heard others say the opposite? And in the mean time you try to convince me you want to 'look good naked' and you think how a marathon runner looks doesn't impress girls? Really, is this a joke or am I talking to a kid? | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
The name Lydiard is new to me but base building and periodization are not. By reading your initial claims, though, I would guess that the 'Lydiard way' is to run steady state cardio no matter what your sport is. Lydiard had his runners base build and periodize by running shorter then longer distances because he was trying to get them to be good at running. That is a totally different claim than saying that a 5k is somehow a base building exercise for a fast twitch movement. This is a factual matter we are arguing about, but you can only exercise so much time a day. When you jog, as soon as you stop running, you stop burning calories. Additionally, your body can be quite stubborn if it notices that you are suddenly at a caloric deficit and will try to hang onto fat. Lifting is always going to be numero uno when it comes to burning fat and jumpstarting your metabolism, but HIIT type activities (like running up a hill) are still pretty good and much better than steady state cardio. Look, here's a citation: Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle Metabolism. 1994 Jul;43(7):814-8 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8028502) As for 'looking good naked', this forum has a broad appeal and some people have lofty goals while others have only vague ideas about what they want to accomplish. I think it's the guy or girl who comes in with a very general goal who needs the most guidance and shouldn't settle for a program that's not tailored for them. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On June 08 2013 11:34 Jerubaal wrote: Give me a reason why I should do steady state cardio over sprinting or other aerobic calisthenicy things. My first response is why would it be one or the other, and not both? Though of course this depends alot of one's goals.For general health some level of cardiovascular fitness is generally considered a good thing. This doesn't mean you have to bike for 3 hours a day or something, but doing some aerobic activity 2-3x a week for 20 or 30 minutes isn't likely to hurt anything and will keep you reasonably fit. Going back to initial question, if you were say an NFL football player or a sprinter I would say their is no real reason to do any steady state training. If you are a soccer player...different story. What kind of training you do should be based on what you are trying to achieve and/or train for. I used to do a lot of steady state cardio on a treadmill - it never helped me get fitter. Can't say I've ever heard of someone doing a decent bit of running and then not being able to run faster over distance. Getting in shape through running doesn't work for many people. Maybe we are all born to run, but if it is not developed early in life, it may be impossible to become a 'runner'. I don't believe this it all. I've yet to see someone, without a physical ailement, that couldn't develop into a decent runner. If you are talking elite level, then no of course not, but if you are talking being a decent local runner (say 19-20 min 5ks for a male) then yes, almost anyone can get there. Someone like Usain Bolt will almost never do sprints as training. What he will do is squats etc for muscle strength, low intensity cardio for more endurance (at the end of the 100m every sprinter will be slowing down because of fatigue) and technique drills for better running form. Both of the bolded things are completely false. Bolt does ZERO aerobic work. It's completely irrelevant to what a sprinter does. Slowing down at the end of a 100m has nothing to do with aerobic endurance (slowing at 400m does have a slight aerobic component) and more to do with exhausting the limits of the creatine phosphate system and speed endurance. Bolt also sprints regularly in training, though it would be correct to say he does not do any all out 100m sprints. There is plenty of short work 30m-60m at high speeds, block work, and overdistance sprinting (generally 200-350m). Now you contradict yourself: But in the end a 5k performance all comes down on the oxygen management of the body and speedwork is unimportant. Interval training and intense workouts surely have their place in certain training programs. For a professional dealing with lactate build-up is an important factor in winning races. If 5k performance all comes down to oxygen management, why would "pros" care about speework at all and why would lactate build-up matter? Moreover, you ignore arguably one of the biggest reason for training at faster than AnT, and this is running economy. The more you run at a pace, the more efficient you get at running that pace. It's not that you totally change your form, but the body naturally adapts over time and becomes more efficient at a given pace, utilizing less oxygen to run the given pace. Beyond even this, when you train relatively aerobically at faster paces you recruit more muscle fiber, and this increases the aerobic qualities of the fiber over time. When running a 5k race most people will be running anaerobically for most of it. This again depends on what you mean. If you mean their is a small anaerobic component or that lactate is above 2-4 mmol in the race, then sure. However, the anaerobic component provides only a small portion of the energy needed for a 5k (general estimates I see are around 90% aerobic, 10% anaerobic). Again, what is jogging for 30+ mins good for? Running faster, improving strength of ligaments and tendons, increasing mitochondrial density, stimulation of LV hypertrophy, increased lung elasticity, etc. less stressful on their joints than jogging for 30 mins. Who says anything about stressful on joints? The jury is still out there big time on that one and I don't think we have a scientific consensus yet: http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2011/03/28/effect-of-physical-activity-on-knees.pdf Is it better for body recomposition? Hell no. I was making a joke at my 17 yo self for looking like a marshmallow toothpick. I should carry a picture of a marathoner to show to girls on the treadmill. Agree on the first part totally. If your goal is look better, in the classical sense, then a bunch of running is NOT the way to go (though a little endurance exercise is good imo). Your second/third line are irritating. You'll only look that way if you don't do anything else besides running. Marathoners look like they do not because they run a ton, but because it's necessary morphology for the given event. It's VERY rare to see great marathoners that weigh more than 2lbs/inch, and many are a little below that. | ||
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rolando
United States82 Posts
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
On July 08 2013 09:42 rolando wrote: Great thread really informative. In school I had a weight training class to lift weights but now that I am out all I have is a little bench press. Right now I am lifting 75lbs on bench and 33lbs for dumbell bench. I can do 75lbs 35x if I want to and 33lbs about 15 times. Is this a good way of using my equipment or should I be doing it diferently. I can only put 105 maximum on the bar which is useless because my max is 185. those rep ranges are fine if you want to build endurance. don't forget to train other parts of you body! | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
The basic mistake, I believe, you have made is confusing the results of the exercise with the goals of the exercise. All of those things you listed, I have no doubt, will result from steady state cardio. My question is, to what end? I would contend that almost all of the things you have listed are either equally well served by other exercises which provide greater benefits or are specific adaptations to running and have no application outside of it. You have essentially repeated in so many words that running makes you good at running. I'd be glad to elucidate on a point by point basis, but I'd like to hear your comments first. My insistence might seem strange, but I don't think this is as small a problem as a disagreement on facts. I think people, for several reasons, have latched on to steady state cardio and are stubbornly clinging to it despite any attempts to steer them to goal oriented programs. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
All of those things you listed, I have no doubt, will result from steady state cardio. My question is, to what end? To run faster? I think people, for several reasons, have latched on to steady state cardio and are stubbornly clinging to it despite any attempts to steer them to goal oriented programs. I am not one of those people. I was trying to be clear with quotes like: What kind of training you do should be based on what you are trying to achieve and/or train for. and Agree on the first part totally. If your goal is look better, in the classical sense, then a bunch of running is NOT the way to go but that kind of stuff can get lost in the shuffle of a long winded post. To be clear, if your goal with fitness isn't to become a good or better runner( or other aerobic sport)...then lots, or even a moderate amount of running, (cardio) is FAR from necessary, and arguably not even a good tactic. In my opinion, one ought always to look to his goals to decide upon a good workout regimen. If your goal is to look better, in a classical sense, then strength training, with a very minimal amount of aerobic exercise is good. If your goal is to generally be in better shape, I would say relatively the same as the look better option, with perhaps a marginally greater amount of aerobic training (by this I mean like 20-30 minutes 3-4 times a week of some sort of aerobic work). If your goal is to lift a ton of weight around...then you probably don't need any aerobic work at all (though I have little expertise in training for powerlifting, but I can't directly see how aerobic training would provide any benefit for that). I suspect we agree here, but I would be interested to hear you expound on this: I would contend that almost all of the things you have listed are either equally well served by other exercises which provide greater benefits or are specific adaptations to running and have no application outside of it Since most of my post was running specific, I'm not sure what of those things could better be served by other exercises or why they would provide greater benefits (keeping in mind I'm speaking from the context of becoming a better runner). | ||
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BenKen
United States860 Posts
Strongmen will generally just practice the different events for their conditioning, but the events are so brutally hard that it's enough anyway. I've heard lots of strongmen and PLs both say that generally the strongmen guys are the all-around stronger of the two, since PLs are so specialized. So yeah, even if your goal is just to move a ton of weight, you still should probably do some cardio.  | ||
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kmpisces
United States50 Posts
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
On July 11 2013 09:19 kmpisces wrote: I would think that you would need to include some cardio even if your goal is not directly related to some health benefit or to having a thinner body. I would think it would take some real endurance to get into heavy lifting. I might be wrong though as I am a woman and have not done mega lifting. I would think Cardio would help build up endurance which in the end would be beneficial. This is not correct. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
Yea, I was going to say I didn't think it would hold true for lifting either. It sounds good on the surface, but physiologically the kind of "endurance" you build for lifting heavy weight is not the same as aerobic endurance and having more of one does not enhance the capacity of the other. It's the same reason why a 100m/200m sprinter doesn't do any "cardio" either...they need endurance, as a good part of deciding the race is who slows down least...but it isn't aerobic endurance. | ||
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rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On July 11 2013 17:03 L_Master wrote: Yea, I was going to say I didn't think it would hold true for lifting either. It sounds good on the surface, but physiologically the kind of "endurance" you build for lifting heavy weight is not the same as aerobic endurance and having more of one does not enhance the capacity of the other. It's the same reason why a 100m/200m sprinter doesn't do any "cardio" either...they need endurance, as a good part of deciding the race is who slows down least...but it isn't aerobic endurance. Depends on what one sees as "cardio" for me cardio is everything that is involving big muscles to work over 10 or more minutes constantly, but not necessarily at the same level. Most all powerlifters do some sort of sprinting or jogging to keep their cardiovascular system up with the requirements of lifting those heavy weights. (This goes for training, a meet will only require you to lift very few reps over a long preiod of time) I for one for example really have trouble while deadlifting for 4 or more reps. Last time I wanted to go for a x5 PR I noticed how my vision faded and I was really close to throwing up. Now I will incorporate sprinting (as in sprint for 2-3 seconds, walk, sprint, walk) and some jogging into my training. Anyway, everyone's training should depend on one's goals. If you are tired of being exhausted after taking the stairs instead of the elevator, "cardio" will be perfect. After jogging 3x a week for a few months I started to see the difference between me and my friends on stairs/bike/whatever. Sadly since then I stopped and started smoking again. t.t Short: If you want to have better endurance in what-so-ever-way, do cardio but choose the right one! Also, if you want to have a healthy heart, doing heavy singles and no cardio will not suffice. | ||
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Meatex
Australia285 Posts
I have goals of building endurance and strength (preparing for Army entry) and would like to get a flat stomach but it appears I have been focusing too much on cardio :S From what I understand strength training is more effective in losing weight than cardio yeah? But as I want to build endurance for running as well I should still be doing cardio exercise as well as strength training but what kind is best and how often is where i'm lost. I currently do 1 hour of running at fairly slow pace (9-10km) followed by 100 situps and because I haven't been doing strength training I also do push ups in what I believe is called pyramid workout. (max, half, half again, max) I would do that one day then next day I would do 2.4km run as fast as I could which I got to 8:40 on treadmill but had to take a few short rests so its not a legit 8:40 maybe closer to 9:20. Then I would follow with weight training. Then rest day and repeat the next day. I am thinking this is not a good way to do it :S Is it better to focus on asap 2.4km or should it be 5km or doing 50-60 minute 10k better? And for weights can someone let me know if my routine is missing anything or i'm doing something wrong: + Show Spoiler + Bench press Incline bench pecs/fly? lat pull down dumbell pull (aiming for similar motion as rowing not sure how to describe) triceps squats with bar shoulder press bicep curls abs circuit (situps, leg lifts, crunches, 2 others i have no idea what they are called) And how should I split my workout given I need both strength and endurance. I think biggest issue I am facing for gaining muscles and flat stomach though is diet - I live with parents who don't let me chose my food and despite my attempts to tell them otherwise still say its organic so its healthy, end of story. So any kind of low carb high protein or controlled diet is out of the question but looking good is not my core concern as long as I can develop a good exercise routine when I get the chance to control my diet I can do that then. Thanks for your help - I have tried searching internet but so much information seems suspect or only half true and I'm not sure what info is good to follow so I just made it up figuring that any exercise regime is better than none  | ||
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
- use functional, compound movements in your routine. squats, deadlifts, dips, pullups. don't do isolation movements that target only 1 or 2 specific muscles, like triceps, bipeps, quads. pushups, situps, and pullups would also be good, since you may be required to do a lot of those in the army. - incorporate plyometrics (box jumps, clapping pushups, depth jumps, other explosive movements) and sprints - design a program using the above that burns you out with a lot of volume (similar to p90x or insanity), rather than a program that is designed to make you lift heavier. when you're in the army, you're gonna be doing a ton of volume, not doing 3x5 bench, so training under a parameter like 3x5 is not going to benefit as much. also, you're right about the diet - if you don't eat well, you won't see improvement. are you around 17 to 19 years? maybe your parents will let you cook yourself an additional meal (something with a lot of meat and vegetables)? | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
Also you should beware, it is very tough on your body to be doing this running AND lifting. I'm training for the army as well (US Marines) so I'm going through the same struggles myself. You have to eat the right amount to maintain your body, this you can figure out in the Nutrition Thread where some expert can tell you how calories and protein you need at your height and weight. I honestly don't think you need to worry about losing weight until it's time to go to bootcamp because already you're burning a shit ton of calories by upping your mileage week by week. Maybe cut a month earlier or something, I don't know what your belly restrictions are if you're South Korean so cut as you see fit. But this only works if you have months to work with, if you're low on time then this will be difficult... | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On August 27 2013 14:46 Meatex wrote: But as I want to build endurance for running as well I should still be doing cardio exercise as well as strength training but what kind is best and how often is where i'm lost. I currently do 1 hour of running at fairly slow pace (9-10km) followed by 100 situps and because I haven't been doing strength training I also do push ups in what I believe is called pyramid workout. (max, half, half again, max) That is a good start. That is the bread and butter if improving running. It develops the aerobic system nicely, increases economy, and most importantly strengthens the tendons/ligaments, joints, and bones to prepare for more volume and more intense running. I would do that one day then next day I would do 2.4km run as fast as I could which I got to 8:40 on treadmill but had to take a few short rests so its not a legit 8:40 maybe closer to 9:20. Then I would follow with weight training. Then rest day and repeat the next day. I am thinking this is not a good way to do it :S Is it better to focus on asap 2.4km or should it be 5km or doing 50-60 minute 10k better? I'm thinking you are correct. What I don't like is this all out 2.4k stuff. (Why 2.4k anyway?) Racing has a time and place, but every other day is way, way too much. A basic idea if you were going to train say 5 days a week would be M -OFF Tu - 60 min easy Wed - 20 min tempo run w/1.5M wu/cd OR progressive run (start much easier than normally, get faster gradually throughout run, finish last 10-15 minutes at a strong but not "painful" effort level) Thu - OFF Fri -60 min easy Sat - 45 min easy Sun - Longer run (1-3 miles more than normal run) OR Track work Now as far as paces, it would be good to know exact fitness...and without knowing how many and how long breaks its hard to estimate, but if we give you 9'20" 2.4k, then you are in roughly 5:55 mile shape and 20:45 5k shape. Your easy runs then will likely be around 5:10-5:25 pace depending on the day. Easy IS NOT a pace though. It is an effort. One day 8:15 might feel smooth as butter, and on a different day 9:00 pace will be where easy is. Your current 6 min km pace is likely a little too easy however. Tempo effort is again, an effort. Comfortably hard. This pace is fast, but not so fast it truly hurts. You would be glad to slow down, but you shouldn't be digging deep into your mental fortitude to keep pace. For a 20:45 guy, that would be around 4:20-4:30 per km most likely. For "track" work I'd say two good sessions would be: 5-6x800m in 3:15 w 2min slow jog recovery between each 8-10x400m in 2:55 w/2min slow jog recovery. if you have more questions for the running side, feel free to ask away here or in the running thread | ||
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SixStrings
Germany2046 Posts
I've been going to the gym for two months now, and although, surprisingly, I have managed to attend each and every session, I don't seem to be making any progress. I'm 5,7-5,8, at 65 kilos. My workout (Mo, Wednesdays and Saturdays) Cycling for 15 minutes to warm up Dips (15, 12, 10, 8) Chin-ups (8, 6, 4, 4) Pull-ups (12, 8, 6, 6) Leg shit (on Mondays and Saturdays) Tummy shit (sit-ups from a angle, revers sit-ups on the Dip-rack) (on Wednesdays and Saturdays) Bench-press (10, 8, 5, 5, currently at 50 kilos) Bizeps curls (15, 12, 10, 8, currently at 14 kilos) I'm not supposed to do dead-lifts or squads yet, because due to shortened calve-muscles I have terrible form and too much back strain, so am I perhaps missing any vital muscle groups? | ||
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