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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 14 2015 00:51 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 00:41 GrandInquisitor wrote:
That sort of assumes the conclusion, though, doesn't it? Remember that through this whole ordeal Riot hasn't actually been involved. The subreddit banning RL, having the whole content ban issue, the WTFast issue -- none of these things involve Riot in any way. So I don't see why the subreddit moderator team is destined to have any kind of feud with Riot, because that assumes that Riot is involved in the subreddit in the first place.
You say that "not censoring" isn't enough, because if they "do it too much" it wouldn't be in their self interest. But there's no evidence that they're doing any censoring at all. Go through /r/undelete and I don't think you can find any examples of anti-Riot threads that shouldn't have been deleted. There's a lot of server status bitching threads and "EDIT: FRONTPAGE!" type threads that were removed, but nothing that would lead a reasonable person to suspect that the moderators are doing any censoring, especially considering the sheer volume of anti-Riot threads on the subreddit anyway. Literally right now, two of the top three posts on the subreddit right now are bitching about Riot.
That's what's so funny about this whole scandal. You're arguing that there's an implausible mechanism by which Riot is causing harm, except that that harm doesn't even exist. Well, I mean, there is the equally plausible situation of them being biased only against RLewis. The implausible situation to me is that they are unbiased and made the decision they made based on the evidence they presented (without issuing several other content bans simultaneously).
Bias is a loaded word. I agree that they are "biased" insofar as they don't like RL and like Riot. I disagree that they are "biased" insofar as you are suggesting that their decision was unjustified, unreasonable, or outside their jurisdiction.
You seem to suggest that if RL's content deserved a ban, so did others. I'm curious to know what other content creator rose to RL's level. If SivHD called everyone retards and Trick2G tweeted links to arguments involving him and nightslut3 mocked a user's suicidal tendencies, and then continued to disrupt the subreddit after they were banned, then yeah their content should be banned too. RL is singled out for punishment, but it's not unfair: it's just because he's the only one who's such an asshole.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On May 14 2015 01:08 AsnSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 00:54 oneofthem wrote:
that's just the thing, i don't think the 'masses' should be allowed to dictate a change in reddit policy without RL making substantial changes to his own behavior. I definitely would like to see richard just producing his content and only express his opinions in his youtube videos and talkshows. I never understood why he went into each reddit thread and responded to people that were 50% trolling and 50% hating him to begin with. While you're right, I also feel like the mods shouldn't be allowed to, either. But that's technically incorrect since with the way reddit is build the mods own the subreddit so I guess they can do whatever they want even if the majority of 600.000 people disagree. I wouldn't ever expect an apology Richard Lewis in this matter since he doesn't feel like he did something wrong. (afaik he apologized to deman when he obviously fucked up) The mods will prolly lift the ban in the next few months although it will probably take longer than I personally think because there are definitely some powerhungry people among that bunch. (Korean terran was one, enigmablade and sarahbots 2 of the current ones that seem to have a personal vendetta here)
i dont know what to say about reddit mods' behavior because i don't know enough about that process, but also because i dont know if RL's behavior is just how he is or there's some design to it.
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On May 14 2015 01:09 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 00:51 cLutZ wrote:On May 14 2015 00:41 GrandInquisitor wrote:
That sort of assumes the conclusion, though, doesn't it? Remember that through this whole ordeal Riot hasn't actually been involved. The subreddit banning RL, having the whole content ban issue, the WTFast issue -- none of these things involve Riot in any way. So I don't see why the subreddit moderator team is destined to have any kind of feud with Riot, because that assumes that Riot is involved in the subreddit in the first place.
You say that "not censoring" isn't enough, because if they "do it too much" it wouldn't be in their self interest. But there's no evidence that they're doing any censoring at all. Go through /r/undelete and I don't think you can find any examples of anti-Riot threads that shouldn't have been deleted. There's a lot of server status bitching threads and "EDIT: FRONTPAGE!" type threads that were removed, but nothing that would lead a reasonable person to suspect that the moderators are doing any censoring, especially considering the sheer volume of anti-Riot threads on the subreddit anyway. Literally right now, two of the top three posts on the subreddit right now are bitching about Riot.
That's what's so funny about this whole scandal. You're arguing that there's an implausible mechanism by which Riot is causing harm, except that that harm doesn't even exist. Well, I mean, there is the equally plausible situation of them being biased only against RLewis. The implausible situation to me is that they are unbiased and made the decision they made based on the evidence they presented (without issuing several other content bans simultaneously). Bias is a loaded word. I agree that they are "biased" insofar as they don't like RL and like Riot. I disagree that they are "biased" insofar as you are suggesting that their decision was unjustified, unreasonable, or outside their jurisdiction. You seem to suggest that if RL's content deserved a ban, so did others. I'm curious to know what other content creator rose to RL's level. If SivHD called everyone retards and Trick2G tweeted links to arguments involving him and nightslut3 mocked a user's suicidal tendencies, and then continued to disrupt the subreddit after they were banned, then yeah their content should be banned too. RL is singled out for punishment, but it's not unfair: it's just because he's the only one who's such an asshole.
Well, it will be interesting to see how they handle the youtube vote brigade thing. If they do.
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Wells, as far as I know, the r/lol mods don't have to do anything. Vote manipulation is a violation of Reddit's (the entire site) ToS. I would not be surprised if Reddit itself blacklisted those youtubers. I personally haven't seen any of those youtubers' videos lately.
Personally, I do think the moderators are biased against RL - I think there is plenty of evidence for that. I don't think they are censoring to gain favor with Riot; that may be effect of the RL censorship, but that's just incidental. However, I do think any bias the mods have against RL is fully justified. RL is a dick and has personally threatened the mods. They are fully justified to ban him. The problem is when RL continues to be a dick after he's banned from the subreddit.
I have yet to see a single plausible suggestion from anybody on how else the mods could've dealt with RL. They've tried banning him from the site and it literally did nothing. At this point they can either just let him continue to harass them or they escalate. They chose the latter and personally, I would've done the exact same thing.
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And now if he decides to still have his fans downvote things that he finds annoying/stupid? The solution does nothing to solve the problem it's trying to solve. Stopping his content from being on r/lol hurts him financially but it doesn't stop the things that he's doing that are bothering the moderating team. He can still harass them via social media.
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Sure, but it at least sends a message to RL. You have to look at it from the perspective of the mods. If some asshole was harassing you, you're going to want to do something about it. You're not just going to sit there and take it. Perhaps this step won't actually do anything, but it's better than just doing nothing. You've already tried banning him; you've tried talking to him; now it's time to try to hurt his bottom line to get him to stop. If this does hurt RL's bottom line then he'll either have to change his behavior or accept less income.
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On May 14 2015 00:53 AsnSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 00:45 oneofthem wrote:
the best outcome right now would be for RL to make conciliatory moves and change his behavior. once that conciliatory process gets going there would be more substantial discussion fodder. right now it's just a case of justified moderation with overly broad/harsh measures. I don't think Richard has to do anything, this ban is not even a month old and the masses are clearly on his side. Nobody disputes his ban from getting baited into childish argument who shitposted in each of his threads but but censorship and content ban is dumb and it will be fun to see how much longer the mod can keep up with the shitstorm if even more premier e-sports organisaitons apart from c9 decide to work with him.
Damn, reddit sheeps are currently on his side. It must give some real headaches to the mods! Not sure if they can yawningly wait that one more week, when the flock moves to something else, like why is Ekko broken, or Riot should totally do [insert some dota2 feature here].
Masses mean nothing, it's all about how long before the fanaticizers gets bored with their free karma. They know damn well, that those misguided users just want to be relevant, and announcing some kind of holy crusade against the mods and in support of Rlewis sounds BIG, so people just hop on the bandwagon, and upvote the shit out of everything related.
I sure hope mods will not back down, because that sub is already pretty ridiculous, the last thing needed there is to make people believe their zombie voice means something there.
On May 14 2015 04:36 Ryuu314 wrote:
Sure, but it at least sends a message to RL. You have to look at it from the perspective of the mods. If some asshole was harassing you, you're going to want to do something about it. You're not just going to sit there and take it. Perhaps this step won't actually do anything, but it's better than just doing nothing. You've already tried banning him; you've tried talking to him; now it's time to try to hurt his bottom line to get him to stop. If this does hurt RL's bottom line then he'll either have to change his behavior or accept less income.
Dude, if someone can not understand this, then they are either
- delusional
- Rlewis fans (serves them right, lol)
- spent so much time interacting in r/lol that they became one of them, and right now, the collective mind of r/lols vocal barbarians is pro Rlewis, so you gotta stand in line
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On May 14 2015 05:14 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 00:53 AsnSensation wrote:On May 14 2015 00:45 oneofthem wrote:
the best outcome right now would be for RL to make conciliatory moves and change his behavior. once that conciliatory process gets going there would be more substantial discussion fodder. right now it's just a case of justified moderation with overly broad/harsh measures. I don't think Richard has to do anything, this ban is not even a month old and the masses are clearly on his side. Nobody disputes his ban from getting baited into childish argument who shitposted in each of his threads but but censorship and content ban is dumb and it will be fun to see how much longer the mod can keep up with the shitstorm if even more premier e-sports organisaitons apart from c9 decide to work with him. Damn, reddit sheeps are currently on his side. It must give some real headaches to the mods! Not sure if they can yawningly wait that one more week, when the flock moves to something else, like why is Ekko broken, or Riot should totally do [insert some dota2 feature here]. Masses mean nothing, it's all about how long before the fanaticizers gets bored with their free karma. They know damn well, that those misguided users just want to be relevant, and announcing some kind of holy crusade against the mods and in support of Rlewis sounds BIG, so people just hop on the bandwagon, and upvote the shit out of everything related. I sure hope mods will not back down, because that sub is already pretty ridiculous, the last thing needed there is to make people believe their zombie voice means something there.
yeah, god forbid mods give the community a voice or outlet on a community driven website.
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On May 14 2015 04:36 Ryuu314 wrote:
Sure, but it at least sends a message to RL. You have to look at it from the perspective of the mods. If some asshole was harassing you, you're going to want to do something about it. You're not just going to sit there and take it. Perhaps this step won't actually do anything, but it's better than just doing nothing. You've already tried banning him; you've tried talking to him; now it's time to try to hurt his bottom line to get him to stop. If this does hurt RL's bottom line then he'll either have to change his behavior or accept less income.
So they come up with a solution that doesn't solve the problem, and instead the community is left worse off for it because RL breaks some of the largest League news, which is now a bannable offense to link to the news until a slower news site than DD posts their interpretation of RL's piece? It sounds ass-backwards and designed by children.
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On May 14 2015 05:14 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 00:53 AsnSensation wrote:On May 14 2015 00:45 oneofthem wrote:
the best outcome right now would be for RL to make conciliatory moves and change his behavior. once that conciliatory process gets going there would be more substantial discussion fodder. right now it's just a case of justified moderation with overly broad/harsh measures. I don't think Richard has to do anything, this ban is not even a month old and the masses are clearly on his side. Nobody disputes his ban from getting baited into childish argument who shitposted in each of his threads but but censorship and content ban is dumb and it will be fun to see how much longer the mod can keep up with the shitstorm if even more premier e-sports organisaitons apart from c9 decide to work with him. Damn, reddit sheeps are currently on his side. It must give some real headaches to the mods! Not sure if they can yawningly wait that one more week, when the flock moves to something else, like why is Ekko broken, or Riot should totally do [insert some dota2 feature here]. Masses mean nothing, it's all about how long before the fanaticizers gets bored with their free karma. They know damn well, that those misguided users just want to be relevant, and announcing some kind of holy crusade against the mods and in support of Rlewis sounds BIG, so people just hop on the bandwagon, and upvote the shit out of everything related. I sure hope mods will not back down, because that sub is already pretty ridiculous, the last thing needed there is to make people believe their zombie voice means something there.
It's going to get the same response every time news that people want to discuss comes up is ham-fistedly removed, especially if organisations give statements to Richard Lewis for the announcement like C9 did.
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On May 14 2015 05:15 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:14 Volband wrote:On May 14 2015 00:53 AsnSensation wrote:On May 14 2015 00:45 oneofthem wrote:
the best outcome right now would be for RL to make conciliatory moves and change his behavior. once that conciliatory process gets going there would be more substantial discussion fodder. right now it's just a case of justified moderation with overly broad/harsh measures. I don't think Richard has to do anything, this ban is not even a month old and the masses are clearly on his side. Nobody disputes his ban from getting baited into childish argument who shitposted in each of his threads but but censorship and content ban is dumb and it will be fun to see how much longer the mod can keep up with the shitstorm if even more premier e-sports organisaitons apart from c9 decide to work with him. Damn, reddit sheeps are currently on his side. It must give some real headaches to the mods! Not sure if they can yawningly wait that one more week, when the flock moves to something else, like why is Ekko broken, or Riot should totally do [insert some dota2 feature here]. Masses mean nothing, it's all about how long before the fanaticizers gets bored with their free karma. They know damn well, that those misguided users just want to be relevant, and announcing some kind of holy crusade against the mods and in support of Rlewis sounds BIG, so people just hop on the bandwagon, and upvote the shit out of everything related. I sure hope mods will not back down, because that sub is already pretty ridiculous, the last thing needed there is to make people believe their zombie voice means something there. yeah, god forbid mods give the community a voice or outlet on a community driven website.
If you'd let that community drive your website, I have pretty bad news for you. But a good advice as well: don't try to make a website.
On May 14 2015 05:18 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:14 Volband wrote:On May 14 2015 00:53 AsnSensation wrote:On May 14 2015 00:45 oneofthem wrote:
the best outcome right now would be for RL to make conciliatory moves and change his behavior. once that conciliatory process gets going there would be more substantial discussion fodder. right now it's just a case of justified moderation with overly broad/harsh measures. I don't think Richard has to do anything, this ban is not even a month old and the masses are clearly on his side. Nobody disputes his ban from getting baited into childish argument who shitposted in each of his threads but but censorship and content ban is dumb and it will be fun to see how much longer the mod can keep up with the shitstorm if even more premier e-sports organisaitons apart from c9 decide to work with him. Damn, reddit sheeps are currently on his side. It must give some real headaches to the mods! Not sure if they can yawningly wait that one more week, when the flock moves to something else, like why is Ekko broken, or Riot should totally do [insert some dota2 feature here]. Masses mean nothing, it's all about how long before the fanaticizers gets bored with their free karma. They know damn well, that those misguided users just want to be relevant, and announcing some kind of holy crusade against the mods and in support of Rlewis sounds BIG, so people just hop on the bandwagon, and upvote the shit out of everything related. I sure hope mods will not back down, because that sub is already pretty ridiculous, the last thing needed there is to make people believe their zombie voice means something there. It's going to get the same response every time news that people want to discuss comes up is ham-fistedly removed, especially if organisations give statements to Richard Lewis for the announcement like C9 did.
No, it's going to be degenerate into memes, like you know who, and etc. People won't rage nearly as much as now without someone guiding them.
On May 14 2015 05:18 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 04:36 Ryuu314 wrote:
Sure, but it at least sends a message to RL. You have to look at it from the perspective of the mods. If some asshole was harassing you, you're going to want to do something about it. You're not just going to sit there and take it. Perhaps this step won't actually do anything, but it's better than just doing nothing. You've already tried banning him; you've tried talking to him; now it's time to try to hurt his bottom line to get him to stop. If this does hurt RL's bottom line then he'll either have to change his behavior or accept less income. So they come up with a solution that doesn't solve the problem, and instead the community is left worse off for it because RL breaks some of the largest League news, which is now a bannable offense to link to the news until a slower news site than DD posts their interpretation of RL's piece? It sounds ass-backwards and designed by children.
The alternative is let someone shit in on your face 365 days a year. That sure sounds like an adult response.
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Because RL being banned from posting on r/lol is shitting on the face of every member of r/lol, if you want to continue on with your comparison. I don't think it's totally accurate, and if they end up lifting the RL content ban then your comment sure would look a bit silly, no?
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I mean, the question comes down to. Is which r/lol is better?
/r/lol with RLewis in his full glory.
/r/lol without RLewis, but still has his content
/r/lol without He-who-shall-not-be-named.
I'm pretty sure the 2nd scenario is what most people would advocate, his articles were still pretty darn good.
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On May 14 2015 05:26 Zdrastochye wrote:
Because RL being banned from posting on r/lol is shitting on the face of every member of r/lol, if you want to continue on with your comparison. I don't think it's totally accurate, and if they end up lifting the RL content ban then your comment sure would look a bit silly, no?
No, I already said it's a lose-lose. Mods can not win in this battle. They either lose their integrity along with their dignity, and the community will nag them even harder than they do with Riot. Basically mods become the tools of this community which - if it was a real person - would manage to ignite themselves, then pour oil on them instead of water. Whether it's because they lift the Rlewis content ban, or because they would've kept letting Rlewis constantly talk shit about them in their own website.
Or they keep him and his content banned, and they will be called nazi mods, and "omg, where is my free speech" (from people, mind you, who were so happy when the mods slapped Rlewis in the face for the first time, but oh well, it was cool to support the mods then, so it's K), then keep posting and upvoting some of the most retarded thread I've ever seen on reddit.
The only victory is forcing Rlewis to make some kind of an apology, and for him to stop giving shit to the lol mods. We got it Lewis, you are angry at them, amazing, but enough now.
On May 14 2015 05:31 wei2coolman wrote:
I mean, the question comes down to. Is which r/lol is better?
/r/lol with RLewis in his full glory.
/r/lol without RLewis, but still has his content
/r/lol without He-who-shall-not-be-named.
I'm pretty sure the 2nd scenario is what most people would advocate, his articles were still pretty darn good.
His content surface eventually, people find a way, so the news reach r/lol. Option 3, and if Rlewis hads enough, he can always make amends. Or not swallow his pride, and keep up with this eternal fight.
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On May 14 2015 05:31 wei2coolman wrote:
I mean, the question comes down to. Is which r/lol is better?
/r/lol with RLewis in his full glory.
/r/lol without RLewis, but still has his content
/r/lol without He-who-shall-not-be-named.
I'm pretty sure the 2nd scenario is what most people would advocate, his articles were still pretty darn good.
Which is absolutely the correct scenario. The r/lol mods who are in fear over their lives of him stalking them are being equal parts paranoid and naive. He's not posting their address online or stealing their SSNs. Allow his content but not him.
To Volband: The RL content ban won't stick, we both know it. Not permanently, it will have to get lifted. So all they're doing in the mean time is growing the force that opposes their decisions. The amount of people supporting them for standing up to the "tyranny" of RL is becoming fewer than the amount of people who would just rather be done with the inconvenience of not being able to respond to RL news when he inevitably posts something that's VERY League related. I agree they don't have a winning way out of this, so why the fuck continue the charade?
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On May 14 2015 05:33 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:31 wei2coolman wrote:
I mean, the question comes down to. Is which r/lol is better?
/r/lol with RLewis in his full glory.
/r/lol without RLewis, but still has his content
/r/lol without He-who-shall-not-be-named.
I'm pretty sure the 2nd scenario is what most people would advocate, his articles were still pretty darn good. Which is absolutely the correct scenario. The r/lol mods who are in fear over their lives of him stalking them are being equal parts paranoid and naive. He's not posting their address online or stealing their SSNs. Allow his content but not him.
I so want his ban lifted now, and at least 3 articles coming out and voted to the front page, discussing some of the mods dirty laundry. Without irl names and adresses, of course! Must be fun.
To your edit:
Remember that the last week(s) was high-time for Rlewis. There are really not much nasty content within such a short time as during the roster changes periods.
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So you think that since they've weathered the storm of roster swaps now they've escaped the worst time for them to have RL's content banned, so now it can remain for the rest of time? I will wager any amount of money that his content will end up unbanned after a period of time. If that unbanning is going to happen at some point, what is the benefit to the r/lol community in them continuing it?
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On May 14 2015 05:42 Zdrastochye wrote:
So you think that since they've weathered the storm of roster swaps now they've escaped the worst time for them to have RL's content banned, so now it can remain for the rest of time? I will wager any amount of money that his content will end up unbanned after a period of time. If that unbanning is going to happen at some point, what is the benefit to the r/lol community in them continuing it?
I definitely won't take on a bet where I'm going against "after a period of time.", hah!
But your example makes the whole ban pointless in the first place. Why ban his content, when you KNOW you are going to lift it. "Hey, we just wanted to let you guys know that we are not afraid to make you think we are actually serious, even though we are totally not!"
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On May 14 2015 05:33 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:31 wei2coolman wrote:
I mean, the question comes down to. Is which r/lol is better?
/r/lol with RLewis in his full glory.
/r/lol without RLewis, but still has his content
/r/lol without He-who-shall-not-be-named.
I'm pretty sure the 2nd scenario is what most people would advocate, his articles were still pretty darn good. Which is absolutely the correct scenario. The r/lol mods who are in fear over their lives of him stalking them are being equal parts paranoid and naive. He's not posting their address online or stealing their SSNs. Allow his content but not him.
How is it paranoid and naive? They aren't afraid that their lives are in danger - they're afraid that RL will invade their privacy.
There was a SC2 mod who talked about how RL tracked him down on his private FB to harass him. He's also made very public tweets threatening to doxx them. It's retarded to say the mods are entitled to less privacy simply because they're a volunteer for a subreddit. It's equally retarded to say the mods shouldn't do anything until it's too late. If someone is invading my privacy or threatening to invade my privacy you can bet I'm going to take affirmative action before my information is posted for the world to see. This is especially true when you know he has the ability to do it (and has done it in the past).
Here's the other thing I don't think people fully understand. RL has been banned from r/lol for many months now and, from the mod's perspective, absolutely nothing has changed. He's still a dick; he still vote brigades posts; he still harasses the mods. If you want to get him to stop, you have to do something.
What the fuck would you do? Don't say "ban him" because they already did that and it didn't work.
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How much money do people get for sending lewis insider informations? I'm just curious.
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EPT
