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On May 14 2015 05:49 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:42 Zdrastochye wrote:
So you think that since they've weathered the storm of roster swaps now they've escaped the worst time for them to have RL's content banned, so now it can remain for the rest of time? I will wager any amount of money that his content will end up unbanned after a period of time. If that unbanning is going to happen at some point, what is the benefit to the r/lol community in them continuing it? I definitely won't take on a bet where I'm going against "after a period of time.", hah! But your example makes the whole ban pointless in the first place. Why ban his content, when you KNOW you are going to lift it. "Hey, we just wanted to let you guys know that we are not afraid to make you think we are actually serious, even though we are totally not!"
Now I absolutely think we're getting to a point here, the discussion has borne some fruit. Yes, the content ban is useless because it will be lifted. It was an immature decision made by people with personal biases against RL (for good reason, I'm not arguing his dickish ways of treating people) that eventually will be overturned once people settle down and the passing of time fades the anger a bit. Maybe that's the usefulness of the ban? I don't know, I can't defend either side, RL or the moderators. Both sides are poking each other in the eye and blaming each other for it.
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On May 14 2015 05:50 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:33 Zdrastochye wrote:On May 14 2015 05:31 wei2coolman wrote:
I mean, the question comes down to. Is which r/lol is better?
/r/lol with RLewis in his full glory.
/r/lol without RLewis, but still has his content
/r/lol without He-who-shall-not-be-named.
I'm pretty sure the 2nd scenario is what most people would advocate, his articles were still pretty darn good. Which is absolutely the correct scenario. The r/lol mods who are in fear over their lives of him stalking them are being equal parts paranoid and naive. He's not posting their address online or stealing their SSNs. Allow his content but not him. How is it paranoid and naive? They aren't afraid that their lives are in danger - they're afraid that RL will invade their privacy. There was a SC2 mod who talked about how RL tracked him down on his private FB to harass him. He's also made very public tweets threatening to doxx them. It's retarded to say the mods are entitled to less privacy simply because they're a volunteer for a subreddit. It's equally retarded to say the mods shouldn't do anything until it's too late. If someone is invading my privacy or threatening to invade my privacy you can bet I'm going to take affirmative action before my information is posted for the world to see. This is especially true when you know he has the ability to do it (and has done it in the past). Here's the other thing I don't think people fully understand. RL has been banned from r/lol for many months now and, from the mod's perspective, absolutely nothing has changed. He's still a dick; he still vote brigades posts; he still harasses the mods. If you want to get him to stop, you have to do something. What the fuck would you do? Don't say "ban him" because they already did that and it didn't work.
Truly saddens me, that we reached the point, where even on a TL sister-site we have to argue with people ignoring things like these, and only focusing on the part which makes the mods look like the enemy of free speech, or some bully who want to hurt poor Richie.
Makes me hard to keep back the more personal slashes on him and his followers, who apparently became like this. There are not even upvotes to urge us to come up with the most persuading shitposts ever, and making others think less about this debate, and just follow the crowd. And still...
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If you post things on the Internet it really isn't private anymore. If you've filled out something that displays to people who you are and where you live and ways to contact you, anyone can find that information out. The means they use to find this out don't have to be illegal, and you don't have the right to decide who knows that stuff. Sorry.
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On May 14 2015 05:57 Zdrastochye wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:49 Volband wrote:On May 14 2015 05:42 Zdrastochye wrote:
So you think that since they've weathered the storm of roster swaps now they've escaped the worst time for them to have RL's content banned, so now it can remain for the rest of time? I will wager any amount of money that his content will end up unbanned after a period of time. If that unbanning is going to happen at some point, what is the benefit to the r/lol community in them continuing it? I definitely won't take on a bet where I'm going against "after a period of time.", hah! But your example makes the whole ban pointless in the first place. Why ban his content, when you KNOW you are going to lift it. "Hey, we just wanted to let you guys know that we are not afraid to make you think we are actually serious, even though we are totally not!" Now I absolutely think we're getting to a point here, the discussion has borne some fruit. Yes, the content ban is useless because it will be lifted. It was an immature decision made by people with personal biases against RL (for good reason, I'm not arguing his dickish ways of treating people) that eventually will be overturned once people settle down and the passing of time fades the anger a bit. Maybe that's the usefulness of the ban? I don't know, I can't defend either side, RL or the moderators. Both sides are poking each other in the eye and blaming each other for it.
And why do you think standing for what you believe is right is stupid and unnecessary? And don't come with that poor r/lol will get the news 1 hour later, or that it's not ethical to ban someone's content just because his a dick. I get that we can give all kinds of shit to the mods if we act like good christians.
You base everything on your assumption that r/lol can not survive an Rlewis content ban. Sure they can. Just compare it to the amount of shit Riot got for the chroma packs for example. Half of the playerbase left, right? No. People got bitchy over their own shortcomings (Riot never said it would be ip only; no1 cares if they don't want to pay that much or at all for Chromas). For weeks I had to avoid r/lol because it made me twitch to just read the headlines. I was like holy shit, I even give you money you homeless ****, just shut up already, I don't care! Don't buy it! Jeez! Why is it in the front page with 5 almost the same threads as well?
If someone would not know about lol and would just read that subreddit, he'd think Riot will go bankrupt in a month. No, it was just the same ol' pattern of the most bitchy people igniting the flock's desire to be salty about something. Anything.
Now Rlewis is chromapacks. Yes, with every new chroma pack, at least one thread will make it to the front page titled "guys, can we discuss chroma packs now, srsly? I think it's time for a reduction, blahblah, I don't want to work, ty". And? And nothing.
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Really? So you're (Zdrastochye) basically saying anyone with a Facebook page has 0 right to privacy. If you made a gmail account with your personal info or phone number you have 0 right to privacy. If you have a Skype account you have 0 right to privacy.
If that's really your conception of internet privacy that's fine, but your conception of privacy is in by far the vast minority.
Just because something can legally be found, doesn't mean it's not private. Just because information is public record does not give you license to splatter that information to the masses.
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On May 14 2015 05:58 Zdrastochye wrote:
If you post things on the Internet it really isn't private anymore. If you've filled out something that displays to people who you are and where you live and ways to contact you, anyone can find that information out. The means they use to find this out don't have to be illegal, and you don't have the right to decide who knows that stuff. Sorry.
It sure is not illegal to follow you every day and post about everything you do, hopefully I could get a glimpse of some private stuff as well. Oooh, who's that other girl? Ooh, did you just pick your nose? Oh, don't mind me, it's legal, why are you out on the streets fella? Don't hate me for ridiculing you on the internet. What, you call the cops? Let me gather around my fellow people and reach the conclusion that you are stupid for not wanting me invading your private life. You silly, you see these in my hands? Yeah, reddit golds, so I'm pretty right, and you are pretty wrong. Now call off the cops and I might let you call me master.
... we are reaching some all time low here when someone so casually discards the fact that Rlewis hunts after people. God forbid he sees a young woman with a short skirt.... you know what's coming to her.
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On May 14 2015 05:15 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:14 Volband wrote:On May 14 2015 00:53 AsnSensation wrote:On May 14 2015 00:45 oneofthem wrote:
the best outcome right now would be for RL to make conciliatory moves and change his behavior. once that conciliatory process gets going there would be more substantial discussion fodder. right now it's just a case of justified moderation with overly broad/harsh measures. I don't think Richard has to do anything, this ban is not even a month old and the masses are clearly on his side. Nobody disputes his ban from getting baited into childish argument who shitposted in each of his threads but but censorship and content ban is dumb and it will be fun to see how much longer the mod can keep up with the shitstorm if even more premier e-sports organisaitons apart from c9 decide to work with him. Damn, reddit sheeps are currently on his side. It must give some real headaches to the mods! Not sure if they can yawningly wait that one more week, when the flock moves to something else, like why is Ekko broken, or Riot should totally do [insert some dota2 feature here]. Masses mean nothing, it's all about how long before the fanaticizers gets bored with their free karma. They know damn well, that those misguided users just want to be relevant, and announcing some kind of holy crusade against the mods and in support of Rlewis sounds BIG, so people just hop on the bandwagon, and upvote the shit out of everything related. I sure hope mods will not back down, because that sub is already pretty ridiculous, the last thing needed there is to make people believe their zombie voice means something there. yeah, god forbid mods give the community a voice or outlet on a community driven website.
The community already has a voice, but everyone likes to rage against nazi mods anyways, because hey. It's not like there aren't subreddits that have tried no moderation experiments before, and let the community actually try to up/downvote things properly.
As always, the relationship between moderation strictness and subreddit quality is positively correlated. Just look at an r/askhistorians thread before mod review.
On May 14 2015 06:13 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:58 Zdrastochye wrote:
If you post things on the Internet it really isn't private anymore. If you've filled out something that displays to people who you are and where you live and ways to contact you, anyone can find that information out. The means they use to find this out don't have to be illegal, and you don't have the right to decide who knows that stuff. Sorry. It sure is not illegal to follow you every day and post about everything you do, hopefully I could get a glimpse of some private stuff as well. Oooh, who's that other girl? Ooh, did you just pick your nose? Oh, don't mind me, it's legal, why are you out on the streets fella? Don't hate me for ridiculing you on the internet. What, you call the cops? Let me gather around my fellow people and reach the conclusion that you are stupid for not wanting me invading your private life. You silly, you see these in my hands? Yeah, reddit golds, so I'm pretty right, and you are pretty wrong. Now call off the cops and I might let you call me master. ... we are reaching some all time low here when someone so casually discards the fact that Rlewis hunts after people. God forbid he sees a young woman with a short skirt.... you know what's coming to her.
Given how he responds to criticism on reddit of all things. I mean, bringing irrelevant, but personal and deeply hurtful things into a comment war against basically nobodies? Really? I'm shocked by the maturity.
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On May 14 2015 06:13 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 05:58 Zdrastochye wrote:
If you post things on the Internet it really isn't private anymore. If you've filled out something that displays to people who you are and where you live and ways to contact you, anyone can find that information out. The means they use to find this out don't have to be illegal, and you don't have the right to decide who knows that stuff. Sorry. ... we are reaching some all time low here when someone so casually discards the fact that Rlewis hunts after people. God forbid he sees a young woman with a short skirt.... you know what's coming to her.
Did I actually just read that? LOL.
EDIT: Thought I would add something useful. I personally don't think stalking in real life is comparable to online stalking.
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This is one of the main reasons I gave up on Reddit. The moderation team is inconsistent and incompetent, and it's lost its identity as a free discussion forum, and instead turned into a business.
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Oh look at r/lol right now, haha:
- Free speech, Rlewis! Free speech, Rlewis! Free--
- Hey dude, I don't think it's that black and white, becau--
- FREE SPEECH. RLEWIS! FREE SPEE... oh, wow, Ekko is out. Wtf is that?? Holy shit the numbers. What, invulnerable? That's just op, Riot fucked up again, good job. Good fucking job, another imbalanced shit. Escaping silver this month? Hell no, Ekko's gonna ruin my games.
- Wow, he is indeed revealed. But I wanted to discuss Rlewis with you. So--
- ELEMETS ROSTER IS OUT!! Where's Zorozero?? Oh, brb, gotta flame the shit out of everyone who were so confident he would join Ele. Man, without Zoro Ele is shit, I'm telling you. Still, looking forward to the next split, gonna be juicyyyyy!
- Interesting! Aaaanyway, so as you know, Rlewis--
- WOW, DID YOU SEE WHAT EKKO CAN DO?! HOW IS THAT NOT BROKEN?
- No, I did no--
- Aaaand the patch is out. Fuck this patch, ruined everything. Another shit patch, thanks riot, no more rp to you ,this time I'm serious. I'm not supporting a company which releases a patch like this. Very bad.
- Could we get back to--
- Gg, I'm done. Link is an animal! I really hate Doublelift now. I'm 100% confident he is the reason CLG is failing, he is a shit person. I bet he beats puppies. What an ass. Wors adc NA for sure.
- About Richard Lewis...
- Who?!
- You know, the guy, who--
- Explain yourself, Doublelift! Explain yourself, Doublelift!
Yeah, such a wasteland without Rlewis. Not sure how much longer the mods can hold out!
On May 14 2015 12:05 ZataN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 06:13 Volband wrote:On May 14 2015 05:58 Zdrastochye wrote:
If you post things on the Internet it really isn't private anymore. If you've filled out something that displays to people who you are and where you live and ways to contact you, anyone can find that information out. The means they use to find this out don't have to be illegal, and you don't have the right to decide who knows that stuff. Sorry. ... we are reaching some all time low here when someone so casually discards the fact that Rlewis hunts after people. God forbid he sees a young woman with a short skirt.... you know what's coming to her. Did I actually just read that? LOL. EDIT: Thought I would add something useful. I personally don't think stalking in real life is comparable to online stalking.
You can't add anything useful, because online stalking (with today's technology*) is still fucked up and violating. You can "LOL" that real stalking is much more serious (of course, it is), but that doesn't make Rlewis any less of a prick. Once you do violating stuff like that, the whole case stops being a minor back-and-forth game between two sides and becomes something much more serious.
*Even long long years ago I was surprised when someone got personal informations about me (and some other folks) and tried to used it against me. It was pretty scary as well because I did not know how long can he reach into my pockets. MInd you, it was just a bunch of teens who did not like each other in an online MMO game. If Rlewis wants to tear your online clothes off ofyou, he can, and he will - he already proved that.
There's no "LOL" here, and cyberbullying has already had some major irl consequences, not to mention that suicide case.
On May 14 2015 13:06 I N V I C T U S wrote:
This is one of the main reasons I gave up on Reddit. The moderation team is inconsistent and incompetent, and it's lost its identity as a free discussion forum, and instead turned into a business.
I don't think there's a Reddit. Subreddits are like different countries in the continent of reddit. You can not label them all, and even when people are saying reddit is that, or reddit is this, it's been the same shit ever since online anonymity. The biggestdiffernce is brigading, where a whole army can step on your dick if they want to, even if you did nothing wrong. But once again, every subreddit and thus their mods are different.
Are r/lol mods inconsistent? Sure, let's set the record straight and finally clarify why "gif no1 cares about" can make it to the front page, and why "gif no1 cares about either" gets deleted. Personally I don't care, but I really can't defend the mods there. If they had some consistency, this whole Richard drama would be much easier on them.
But to give them a break, managing such a huge and childish community as r/lol is not an easy task, and let's not be delusional: if you are not hated by at least ~15% of the community you are doing something wrong.
(It was actually a post in a reddit thread, which had some quality summary about admins and monds in any community sites, and how it's one of the shittiest "job" out there.)
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On May 14 2015 17:12 Volband wrote:Oh look at r/lol right now, haha: - Free speech, Rlewis! Free speech, Rlewis! Free-- - Hey dude, I don't think it's that black and white, becau-- - FREE SPEECH. RLEWIS! FREE SPEE... oh, wow, Ekko is out. Wtf is that?? Holy shit the numbers. What, invulnerable? That's just op, Riot fucked up again, good job. Good fucking job, another imbalanced shit. Escaping silver this month? Hell no, Ekko's gonna ruin my games. - Wow, he is indeed revealed. But I wanted to discuss Rlewis with you. So-- - ELEMETS ROSTER IS OUT!! Where's Zorozero?? Oh, brb, gotta flame the shit out of everyone who were so confident he would join Ele. Man, without Zoro Ele is shit, I'm telling you. Still, looking forward to the next split, gonna be juicyyyyy! - Interesting! Aaaanyway, so as you know, Rlewis-- - WOW, DID YOU SEE WHAT EKKO CAN DO?! HOW IS THAT NOT BROKEN? - No, I did no-- - Aaaand the patch is out. Fuck this patch, ruined everything. Another shit patch, thanks riot, no more rp to you ,this time I'm serious. I'm not supporting a company which releases a patch like this. Very bad. - Could we get back to-- - Gg, I'm done. Link is an animal! I really hate Doublelift now. I'm 100% confident he is the reason CLG is failing, he is a shit person. I bet he beats puppies. What an ass. Wors adc NA for sure. - About Richard Lewis... - Who?! - You know, the guy, who-- - Explain yourself, Doublelift! Explain yourself, Doublelift! Yeah, such a wasteland without Rlewis. Not sure how much longer the mods can hold out! Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 12:05 ZataN wrote:On May 14 2015 06:13 Volband wrote:On May 14 2015 05:58 Zdrastochye wrote:
If you post things on the Internet it really isn't private anymore. If you've filled out something that displays to people who you are and where you live and ways to contact you, anyone can find that information out. The means they use to find this out don't have to be illegal, and you don't have the right to decide who knows that stuff. Sorry. ... we are reaching some all time low here when someone so casually discards the fact that Rlewis hunts after people. God forbid he sees a young woman with a short skirt.... you know what's coming to her. Did I actually just read that? LOL. EDIT: Thought I would add something useful. I personally don't think stalking in real life is comparable to online stalking. You can't add anything useful, because online stalking (with today's technology*) is still fucked up and violating. You can "LOL" that real stalking is much more serious (of course, it is), but that doesn't make Rlewis any less of a prick. Once you do violating stuff like that, the whole case stops being a minor back-and-forth game between two sides and becomes something much more serious. *Even long long years before I was surprised when someone got personal informations about me (and some other folks) and tried to used it against me. It was pretty scary as well because I did not know how long can he reach into my pockets. MInd you, it was just a bunch of teens who did not like each other in an online MMO game. If Rlewis wants to tear your online clothes off ofyou, he can, and he will - he already proved that. There's no "LOL" here, and cyberbullying has already had some major irl consequences, not to mention that suicide case. Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 13:06 I N V I C T U S wrote:
This is one of the main reasons I gave up on Reddit. The moderation team is inconsistent and incompetent, and it's lost its identity as a free discussion forum, and instead turned into a business. I don't think there's a Reddit. Subreddits are like different countries in the continent of reddit. You can not label them all, and even when people are saying reddit is that, or reddit is this, it's been the same shit ever since online anonymity. The biggestdiffernce is brigading, where a whole army can step on your dick if they want to, even if you did nothing wrong. But once again, every subreddit and thus their mods are different. Are r/lol mods inconsistent? Sure, let's set the record straight and finally clarify why "gif no1 cares about" can make it to the front page, and why "gif no1 cares about either" gets deleted. Personally I don't care, but I really can't defend the mods there. If they had some consistency, this whole Richard drama would be much easier on them. But to give them a break, managing such a huge and childish community as r/lol is not an easy task, and let's not be delusional: if you are not hated by at least ~15% of the community you are doing something wrong. (It was actually a post in a reddit thread, which had some quality summary about admins and monds in any community sites, and how it's one of the shittiest "job" out there.)
It's not just an /r/lol problem....
http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/35uyil/transparency_is_important_to_us_and_today_we_take/
it's a reddit wide problem, and the users are pretty pissed at it.
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On May 14 2015 17:13 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2015 17:12 Volband wrote:Oh look at r/lol right now, haha: - Free speech, Rlewis! Free speech, Rlewis! Free-- - Hey dude, I don't think it's that black and white, becau-- - FREE SPEECH. RLEWIS! FREE SPEE... oh, wow, Ekko is out. Wtf is that?? Holy shit the numbers. What, invulnerable? That's just op, Riot fucked up again, good job. Good fucking job, another imbalanced shit. Escaping silver this month? Hell no, Ekko's gonna ruin my games. - Wow, he is indeed revealed. But I wanted to discuss Rlewis with you. So-- - ELEMETS ROSTER IS OUT!! Where's Zorozero?? Oh, brb, gotta flame the shit out of everyone who were so confident he would join Ele. Man, without Zoro Ele is shit, I'm telling you. Still, looking forward to the next split, gonna be juicyyyyy! - Interesting! Aaaanyway, so as you know, Rlewis-- - WOW, DID YOU SEE WHAT EKKO CAN DO?! HOW IS THAT NOT BROKEN? - No, I did no-- - Aaaand the patch is out. Fuck this patch, ruined everything. Another shit patch, thanks riot, no more rp to you ,this time I'm serious. I'm not supporting a company which releases a patch like this. Very bad. - Could we get back to-- - Gg, I'm done. Link is an animal! I really hate Doublelift now. I'm 100% confident he is the reason CLG is failing, he is a shit person. I bet he beats puppies. What an ass. Wors adc NA for sure. - About Richard Lewis... - Who?! - You know, the guy, who-- - Explain yourself, Doublelift! Explain yourself, Doublelift! Yeah, such a wasteland without Rlewis. Not sure how much longer the mods can hold out! On May 14 2015 12:05 ZataN wrote:On May 14 2015 06:13 Volband wrote:On May 14 2015 05:58 Zdrastochye wrote:
If you post things on the Internet it really isn't private anymore. If you've filled out something that displays to people who you are and where you live and ways to contact you, anyone can find that information out. The means they use to find this out don't have to be illegal, and you don't have the right to decide who knows that stuff. Sorry. ... we are reaching some all time low here when someone so casually discards the fact that Rlewis hunts after people. God forbid he sees a young woman with a short skirt.... you know what's coming to her. Did I actually just read that? LOL. EDIT: Thought I would add something useful. I personally don't think stalking in real life is comparable to online stalking. You can't add anything useful, because online stalking (with today's technology*) is still fucked up and violating. You can "LOL" that real stalking is much more serious (of course, it is), but that doesn't make Rlewis any less of a prick. Once you do violating stuff like that, the whole case stops being a minor back-and-forth game between two sides and becomes something much more serious. *Even long long years before I was surprised when someone got personal informations about me (and some other folks) and tried to used it against me. It was pretty scary as well because I did not know how long can he reach into my pockets. MInd you, it was just a bunch of teens who did not like each other in an online MMO game. If Rlewis wants to tear your online clothes off ofyou, he can, and he will - he already proved that. There's no "LOL" here, and cyberbullying has already had some major irl consequences, not to mention that suicide case. On May 14 2015 13:06 I N V I C T U S wrote:
This is one of the main reasons I gave up on Reddit. The moderation team is inconsistent and incompetent, and it's lost its identity as a free discussion forum, and instead turned into a business. I don't think there's a Reddit. Subreddits are like different countries in the continent of reddit. You can not label them all, and even when people are saying reddit is that, or reddit is this, it's been the same shit ever since online anonymity. The biggestdiffernce is brigading, where a whole army can step on your dick if they want to, even if you did nothing wrong. But once again, every subreddit and thus their mods are different. Are r/lol mods inconsistent? Sure, let's set the record straight and finally clarify why "gif no1 cares about" can make it to the front page, and why "gif no1 cares about either" gets deleted. Personally I don't care, but I really can't defend the mods there. If they had some consistency, this whole Richard drama would be much easier on them. But to give them a break, managing such a huge and childish community as r/lol is not an easy task, and let's not be delusional: if you are not hated by at least ~15% of the community you are doing something wrong. (It was actually a post in a reddit thread, which had some quality summary about admins and monds in any community sites, and how it's one of the shittiest "job" out there.) It's not just an /r/lol problem.... http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/35uyil/transparency_is_important_to_us_and_today_we_take/it's a reddit wide problem, and the users are pretty pissed at it.
I'm pretty sure people are not getting shadowbanned for no good reason at r/trees, but it is indeed trouble at some other subs. Brigading is stupid as well, but r/lol is not a noteworthy case. It's much more serious in world news, or whenever men's or women's right comes up. People make some seriously painful blows to perfectly normal responses, just because they reflect their hate on that.
And reading the other concerns, nothing is r/lol exclusive. r/lol users biggest pet peeve is that the lol mods are inconsistent in what they delete and what not. There are rules, but they mean nothing, and that's what the users would like the mods to be transparent about. Everything else which makes r/lol cancerous is the community itself (and the size of it).
Edit: I should add that I'm not aware how many shadowbans are given out in r/lol, but frankly, the whole concept of shadowbanning - without constant monitoring whether it can be lifted or not - is just stupid.
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There is still no sane definition of vote brigading. Which
is a problem
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
No sane definition of vote brigading? You're a fucking lawyer, you know how the case law system works. Is there a sane definition of negligence? Of proximate cause? Of intent? None of these are clearly defined, and yet we are pretty OK sending people to jail because of them. So I think we can ban someone from a subreddit, for engaging in actions he knows will lead to a significant influx of upvotes/downvotes and disrupting a conversation, and more importantly, refusing to stop when told it is vote brigading.
It doesn't matter how precisely you try to draw the line, someone's always gonna bitch about clarity in the rules. This is why it's something to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis with overarching guidelines. Otherwise idiots will continue to make isolated demands for rigor, like a defendant who comes to court and says "Guys there's just no sane definition of negligence. How am I supposed to know I was being negligent when not every conceivable scenario is spelled out explicitly in the Law of Negligence?"
There's a recurring pattern in this topic, where cLutZ or whomever will make one snide post ("GI is misleading people about consideration!" "No sane definition of vote brigading!"), others deconstruct them and call them out on their shit, and they just rope-a-dope to the next one-liner post, completely refusing to engage on the issues ("Guys this isn't about whether you like RL or not." "It's a community driven site." "CENSORSHIP" "Really guys both sides are in the wrong here"). I almost find it insulting because it makes me think that you aren't really interested in having a discourse, but just trying to nitpick at isolated points.
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I didn't say it can't, I said it doesn't. Your definition is fine, except the refusing to stop when told part, because that just opens it up to the kind of personal biases that the mods are accused of having.
There is one other thing I do disagree with, which may or may not be tangential which is the totalbiscuit "precedent" which is pretty bs, because I had never heard of it before this case and it's essentially one post within a thread which isn't linked to in the rules.
I think it's just a fundamental difference in philosophy here where you prefer a long leash, while i see discretion as a negative (for instance, prosecutorial discretion in the law is just usually an indication to me of an unjust law or a corrupt prosecutor).
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
if the discussion is moving onto how much leash RL should have gotten, i feel he's burned through a whole lot of rope already. guy has a god complex
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 15 2015 00:09 cLutZ wrote:
I didn't say it can't, I said it doesn't. Your definition is fine, except the refusing to stop when told part, because that just opens it up to the kind of personal biases that the mods are accused of having.
There is one other thing I do disagree with, which may or may not be tangential which is the totalbiscuit "precedent" which is pretty bs, because I had never heard of it before this case and it's essentially one post within a thread which isn't linked to in the rules.
I think it's just a fundamental difference in philosophy here where you prefer a long leash, while i see discretion as a negative (for instance, prosecutorial discretion in the law is just usually an indication to me of an unjust law or a corrupt prosecutor).
Don't try to weasel out of this by suggesting that we're just on opposite sides of a philosophical conundrum. I too loathe prosecutorial discretion, which is the selective enforcement of laws. But that's not at issue here. As I offered earlier: please find me another example of someone engaging in RL's behavior here to demonstrate that the mods are unfairly singling out RL. People link leagueoflegends posts on Twitter all the time, but no one else does so in a consistent, systematic, and disruptive manner, and certainly no one else has flouted repeated warnings about it.
I mean, think through your proposed definition here. You're basically suggesting that vote brigading only happens when you explicitly ask people to upvote or downvote something, and that there is zero room to deviate from this definition. Not only is the choice of definition not up to you (moderators can define vote brigading however they want), your definition is obviously completely unworkable and easily skirted.
That's the reason why subreddits have very strict rules about linking to other subreddits. /r/bestof is only allowed to link to other subreddits through the no-participation filter, because the mere act of linking always introduces a flood of new votes, even though these aren't links telling people to vote up or down, and even though /r/bestof has always asked its users not to upvote or downvote. And it's particularly egregious when the flood of new votes is brought there with a link that has preconditioned them to interpret a situation in a particular way.
But even giving RL the most charitable possible interpretation, which is that he was completely ignorant that this will happen, and is basically just an innocent party, he still has mens rea because he was explicitly told not to do this any more because it led to vote brigading. I don't see why there's an issue of personal bias here: the subreddit moderators have chosen to define vote brigading to include what he was doing (which, remember, they can define in any way they want, but this happened to be a decision grounded in precedent both from TotalBiscuit as well as reddit's internal cross-linking rules), and they told him about it, and he wouldn't listen.
So the moderators decided that since he was already banned, the only other action within their power was to ban his content. This has the double effect of both being a personal punishment as well as getting rid of the most egregious vote brigading, because RL was of course primarily interested in soliciting votes in topics related to himself.
Obviously RL can continue to vote brigade whatever topics he wants, and the moderators can't really do much about that because they don't control Twitter. According to Zdrastochye this basically means the moderators are dumb because if they can't completely eliminate a problem, they shouldn't try to address it at all. A more reasonable interpretation is that the moderators eliminated RL's petulant vote brigading to the extent that they are able to, and RL continuing to be a child is just part of life, like gravity.
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On May 15 2015 01:43 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2015 00:09 cLutZ wrote:
I didn't say it can't, I said it doesn't. Your definition is fine, except the refusing to stop when told part, because that just opens it up to the kind of personal biases that the mods are accused of having.
There is one other thing I do disagree with, which may or may not be tangential which is the totalbiscuit "precedent" which is pretty bs, because I had never heard of it before this case and it's essentially one post within a thread which isn't linked to in the rules.
I think it's just a fundamental difference in philosophy here where you prefer a long leash, while i see discretion as a negative (for instance, prosecutorial discretion in the law is just usually an indication to me of an unjust law or a corrupt prosecutor). That's the reason why subreddits have very strict rules about linking to other subreddits. /r/bestof is only allowed to link to other subreddits through the no-participation filter, because the mere act of linking always introduces a flood of new votes, even though these aren't links telling people to vote up or down, and even though /r/bestof has always asked its users not to upvote or downvote. And it's particularly egregious when the flood of new votes is brought there with a link that has preconditioned them to interpret a situation in a particular way.
Yup, I clearly just don't understand why reddit does either of these things, so I guess, that's what it is.
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Bearded Elder29903 Posts
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zVdPs6Z.png)
