ESL Masters Winter will conclude this weekend (December 15-17) in DreamHack Atlanta, with the top StarCraft II competitors in the world competing for the championship.
Read our regionals recap for more information about how the seeded players obtained their spots.
Schedule and Format
The main event format of ESL Masters has been slightly revised since the summer season, but the overall structure remains the same.
Players begin by competing in the Winners Stage (16 players) or Open Stage (32 players), depending on whether or not they obtained a high seed from the regionals (see player list above). Winners Stage and Open Stage results decide which players advance to the final knockout + playoff bracket, and what position they begin in (while separated in name, the knockout and playoff brackets are essential part of a single, long, elimination bracket*).
The 8 players that advance from the Open Stage start at the very bottom rung of the knockout + playoff bracket. All 16 players from the Winners Stage advance to the knockout + playoff bracket, but their starting positions differ depending on their performance in the Winners Stage.
*Technically, the entire tournament can be drawn as one enormous bracket that combines single-elim, double-elim, and gauntlet elements.
It's a complicated format, so we've provided a detailed explainer below. Also, try checking out the official ESL explanation video, or taking a look at our all-in one megachart—whatever one helps you understand the tournament best.
Day 1 (June 15): Winners Stage + Open Stage
Start time: 15:00 GMT (+00:00)
Winners (Seeding) Stage
16 players: Top players from regional qualifiers + EPT point standings
2x eight-player double elimination brackets
Top two players from each bracket (four total) qualify directly for the RO8 playoffs
3rd-8th place players (12 total) are seeded into the knockout bracket according to their placement
Winners Stage bracket #1
Winners Stage bracket #2
Open Stage
32 players: From open sign-ups (selected in order of EPT points)
4x eight-player double elimination brackets
Top two players from each bracket (eight total) advance to the knockout bracket (seeded into lowest round of knockout bracket)
Open Stage bracket #1
Open Stage bracket #2
Open Stage bracket #3
Open Stage bracket #4
Day 2 (December 16): Knockout Stage + Playoffs RO8
Start time: 15:00 GMT (+00:00)
Knockout Stage
20 players: 12 from the Seeding Stage + 8 from the Open Stage
4x King of the hill/gauntlet style brackets
Winner of each gauntlet bracket (four total) advances to the playoffs
Gauntlet brackets seeded according to the results from day 1, with open stage winners starting at the bottom of the bracket
Throwing the Protoss asides its 4 top Terran vs 4 top Zerg. Depending on how you look at it, Zerg is pretty favorable not because of just Serral. Dark and Solar is favored against Cure and Gumiho, while Reynor might be on peak form (unlikely) and beat Clem/Maru.
Again not a fan of this year's format, where it only takes two Bo3 wins to get to quaterfinal playoff from winner's bracket but three Bo3 plus four Bo5 wins to get to the same spot from open bracket.
I think the system isnt too bad, but i dont like that the top 20 players (knock-out bracket and quarterfinalists) just have to lose one bo-5 and are out of the tournament. I would have loved, if there would have been a loser-bracket. I know that it would result in more games, which couldnt all be broadcasted. But on the other hand we dont lose a top player because just bad bracket luck (for example byun vs maru in the round 3, cuz byun had to play dark and serral before; in this szenario byun wouldnt even place top 8 beside beeing [maybe] the 4th best player; just an "fast" example, which isnt perfect, but i hope u get my point).
On December 15 2023 21:01 DarkGamer wrote: I think the system isnt too bad, but i dont like that the top 20 players (knock-out bracket and quarterfinalists) just have to lose one bo-5 and are out of the tournament. I would have loved, if there would have been a loser-bracket. I know that it would result in more games, which couldnt all be broadcasted. But on the other hand we dont lose a top player because just bad bracket luck (for example byun vs maru in the round 3, cuz byun had to play dark and serral before; in this szenario byun wouldnt even place top 8 beside beeing [maybe] the 4th best player; just an "fast" example, which isnt perfect, but i hope u get my point).
Well there are second chances in the first phase. There are always many opinions on this. I for one do like the thrill of having a real Knockout/ end of tournament kinda game. A lot more on the line that way.
On December 15 2023 22:16 Harris1st wrote: With like 10 games starting simultaneously, is there some sort of streaming chart? Is it winners stream A, Open bracket B?
Stream A and B will both cast the Winner Stage, I dont think there is any casting on the Open Bracket, but they might let us know of the updated result during the stream.
On December 15 2023 22:16 Harris1st wrote: With like 10 games starting simultaneously, is there some sort of streaming chart? Is it winners stream A, Open bracket B?
Stream A and B will both cast the Winner Stage, I dont think there is any casting on the Open Bracket, but they might let us know of the updated result during the stream.
Kelazhur had a nice lead in game 3, but he went for the 2010 classic move known as "full foreigner". The more sc2 has changed the more it stays the same, huh?
On December 16 2023 01:34 Luolis wrote: Kelazhur had a nice lead in game 3, but he went for the 2010 classic move known as "full foreigner". The more sc2 has changed the more it stays the same, huh?
Kelazhur's engage was terrible, but I don't blame him for committing hard to marine tank even if it was the wrong decision on paper. Maru's lategame TvT is terrifying, even if he's behind.
Despite winning game 3, Maru looked super slow. His army movement usually is very fluid, to the point that it looks like tanks siege, liberator siege and raven cast happens at thew same time. In this game however, there were several "lags" between these three actions.
Playing nothing outside of WTL really show Maru lack of awareness in these games. Losing the 4th CC to a Marine Medivac walk-in was horrendous, luckily he still has the bread-and-butter build to rely on. But I hope his conditioning will be improving in the next round.
It's so dumb that some players can win this tournament by winning 5 matches while others would have to win over double this amount. It's really bad both from a determining who is the most skilled player this weekend perspective and a viewer perspective because you barely get to see the favorites play any series. An open bracket player making top 4 will be straight up more impressive than a winners stage player winning this event.
Maru made a huge misread on game 2, expecting Classic to went early Skytoss and has nothing to defend on the ground. And game 3 he was sending half of his army away instead of defending the 3rd, which is just plain sad.
On December 16 2023 06:49 TossHeroes wrote: Maru getting exposed outside of Korea as expected
2nd place in Valencia, Ro4 in Atlanta last year, 2nd place in IEM Global Final, yeah exposed indeed. Just pick the moment when the guy is down and kick on him some more, shall we? And to be fair, he also got eliminated in GSL so he doesnt do well even in KR right now.
On December 16 2023 06:49 TossHeroes wrote: Maru getting exposed outside of Korea as expected
2nd place in Valencia, Ro4 in Atlanta last year, 2nd place in IEM Global Final, yeah exposed indeed. Just pick the moment when the guy is down and kick on him some more, shall we? And to be fair, he also got eliminated in GSL so he doesnt do well even in KR right now.
So basically you just prove my point / casters / community
On December 16 2023 06:49 TossHeroes wrote: Maru getting exposed outside of Korea as expected
2nd place in Valencia, Ro4 in Atlanta last year, 2nd place in IEM Global Final, yeah exposed indeed. Just pick the moment when the guy is down and kick on him some more, shall we? And to be fair, he also got eliminated in GSL so he doesnt do well even in KR right now.
So basically you just prove my point / casters / community
Maru has a hard time winning outside of Korea
This statement has become a meme for years.
I wouldn't say getting 2nd, top 4th, 2nd is "losing" outside KR
Maru didn't win GSL last season, he got knocked out in the first group stage. So why would you expect him to win all of Atlanta?
Maru is still the best Terran in the world in non-KR tournaments. Yes, he isn't always the highest placing Terran, and he's much worse than in Korea, but he has the best overall results of any Terran in international tournaments over the past few years. Granted, he's a bit of a kong recentlly outside of KR, but I think the community underappreciates non 1st runs.
On December 16 2023 08:43 dysenterymd wrote: Maru is still the best Terran in the world in non-KR tournaments. Yes, he isn't always the highest placing Terran, and he's much worse than in Korea, but he has the best overall results of any Terran in international tournaments over the past few years. Granted, he's a bit of a kong recentlly outside of KR, but I think the community underappreciates non 1st runs.
When you are the god Terran anything but 1st place is a disappointment Poor Maru
On December 16 2023 08:43 dysenterymd wrote: Maru is still the best Terran in the world in non-KR tournaments. Yes, he isn't always the highest placing Terran, and he's much worse than in Korea, but he has the best overall results of any Terran in international tournaments over the past few years. Granted, he's a bit of a kong recentlly outside of KR, but I think the community underappreciates non 1st runs.
When you are the god Terran anything but 1st place is a disappointment Poor Maru
thats the state for every top of the tops tho, for serral anything but 1st is disappointing as well and seen as such.
Lurker Den beaten down to 10 health! Damn, SC2 after 13+ years is still a great game! After 25 years the Protoss still seek revenge for their ravaged home world of Aiur. G-House! (whatever the hell that means)
I feel like Reynor really has shot himself in the foot with these protoss shenanigans in the last two years. I'm sure if he'd just stick with Zerg in every matchup he would've done way better in this time.
On December 16 2023 00:01 tigera6 wrote: Who came up wtih the "reaction" stats and how come Maru got 74 on it?
Players played a reaction speed trainer before coming to Atlanta, and their results were ranked on the cards.
Actually, all of the stats except power (ranked by players at the event) are empiricle in some way!
That's interesting and matches with Reynors recent interview calling Maru a relatively slow player. It's still odd to me because I don't think Maru was always slow. Despite his overall skill level staying incredibly high his speed has seemed to decrease moreso than his peers. Maru with his 2015-2018 mechanics and his current brain would be unbeatable.
Gotta say super poor scheduling for today. 8 games in first round and only 2 streamed? Terrible. Way better would've been to do all of knockout today with more focus. Then do quarterfinals tomorrow two at a time and then semis to finals one by one.
On December 16 2023 23:50 Luolis wrote: Gotta say super poor scheduling for today. 8 games in first round and only 2 streamed? Terrible. Way better would've been to do all of knockout today with more focus. Then do quarterfinals tomorrow two at a time and then semis to finals one by one.
Not that it makes it better, but it was the same schedule at last DH Atlanta. Considering that they do full RO8 on Day3 at DreamHack Summer, I'm going to speculate it's some kind of venue/logistics problem that prevents ESL from having a long day3/Sunday in Atlanta.
If LP is right this has been a kinda disappointing Performance from Showtime considering His Stronger showings recently, Hope He can bounce Back for iem.
Maru made so many damn mistakes in game 5 that it could have broken his confidence completely in the end. I dont think his mechanics is the problem, but his game-sense is completely screwed up, not sure how much he practiced before this tournament, or if he even prepared for it at all.
On December 17 2023 01:29 JJH777 wrote: Maru losing that third orbital early in the game was so bad :/ so disappointing
Landing the 3rd early before all the unit upgrade and defense set up keep biting him, even against Classic in game 3.
Feels like Maru either doesn't practice at all or he really hates this patch / meta / whatever. His worst form I've ever seen. ...and somehow he has the best WTL regular season stats by far, 19-1, with even Serral having 19-4.
On December 17 2023 01:41 ZeroByte13 wrote: Feels like Maru either doesn't practice at all or he really hates this patch / meta / whatever. His worst form I've ever seen.
He also has a pretty bad period after this 4th GSL title in 2019 till late 2020, partly because of his shoulder which ultimately needed surgery. Not sure how his health/body condition is at the moment, or if its just a mental thing, but he doesnt look like he want to win that badly anymore. To be fair, the guy has played lots of tournament and made deep run in most of them for the last 18 months or so, he might just be burned out at this point.
On December 17 2023 01:41 ZeroByte13 wrote: Feels like Maru either doesn't practice at all or he really hates this patch / meta / whatever. His worst form I've ever seen. ...and somehow he has the best WTL regular season stats by far, 19-1, with even Serral having 19-4.
It's 2016 again with him being a god in teamleagues and disappointing in individual leagues
So disappointing from herO... I think his biggest mistake was letting those first 3 oracles kill a depot. I know he was busy on the other side of the map but damn he should have gotten 30+ scvs at that point.
If Classic beats Lambo he'll be the best performing Toss of yet another offline event this year and yet won't be at Kato... Even bigger disappointment than Maru in this event though it was mostly ESLs poor format/seeding.
On December 17 2023 03:24 JJH777 wrote: If Classic beats Lambo he'll be the best performing Toss of yet another offline event this year and yet won't be at Kato... Even bigger disappointment than Maru in this event though it was mostly ESLs poor format/seeding.
I mean he did have 5 chances at qualifying for Katowice over three qualifiers and lost five times.
On December 17 2023 03:24 JJH777 wrote: If Classic beats Lambo he'll be the best performing Toss of yet another offline event this year and yet won't be at Kato... Even bigger disappointment than Maru in this event though it was mostly ESLs poor format/seeding.
I mean he did have 5 chances at qualifying for Katowice over three qualifiers and lost five times.
3 of his chances to qualify took place at 300 ping. The other two he ran into DRG and Shin who he probably should have beaten but I wouldn't really consider them the qualifying line. Shin was top 4 at last Kato. We've had a total of 9 offline events this year. Classic played in 7 of them and was the clear best performing/highest finishing Toss in 5 out of those 7.
On December 17 2023 04:35 tigera6 wrote: Will be so until we have 3 Zerg in the top 4 again.
Nah Clem will def win against Solar. Solar looked like he struggled against Heromarine.
He lost the game where he all-in Queen drop against mass Cyclone, but the rest was very convincing win from him. Clem is Clem, but Solar look very confident so far.
On December 17 2023 04:53 TossHeroes wrote: As usual terrans takes half of the spots in the top8.
Just glad we got Classic to represent us toss
It goes this way in most tournaments: - Zerg are over-represented in top-2. - Protoss are over-represented in top-32 - Terrans should be over-represented at some point too - so why not top-8.
On December 17 2023 05:37 Glorfindelio wrote: What the hell was Classic's plan here? How do you lose these off those early games? Reynor confirmed best late-game PvZ? Loooooool.
I mean dark is literally known to win after horrible early Games.
On December 17 2023 05:37 Glorfindelio wrote: What the hell was Classic's plan here? How do you lose these off those early games? Reynor confirmed best late-game PvZ? Loooooool.
I mean dark is literally known to win after horrible early Games.
No doubt, but I'd pin what happened way more on Classic's follow-up and execution than Dark's gameplay.
Balance Council must love watching what they've done to one of the best mirror matchups. Though Props to ByuN and Cure for microing their units like this.
we've had 100s of thousands of people laid off lately. so the government announced special subsidies given to heavy machinery manufacturers to help out all the unemployed Cyclone pilots.
Seeing as Byun moved to Canada they should be letting him be red.
great g5 but after byuN couldnt close the game with his bio and Cure got more and more ravens it was a matter of time. ByuN kept looking for the miracle play but Cure was too solid *sigh*
On December 16 2023 00:01 tigera6 wrote: Who came up wtih the "reaction" stats and how come Maru got 74 on it?
Players played a reaction speed trainer before coming to Atlanta, and their results were ranked on the cards.
Actually, all of the stats except power (ranked by players at the event) are empiricle in some way!
That's interesting and matches with Reynors recent interview calling Maru a relatively slow player. It's still odd to me because I don't think Maru was always slow. Despite his overall skill level staying incredibly high his speed has seemed to decrease moreso than his peers. Maru with his 2015-2018 mechanics and his current brain would be unbeatable.
I don't know how seriously all players took it - I knew some people went super trihard and some took it bit more casually. All I know is that it makes sense that showtime having to dodge Widow Mine drops all the time makes sense for reaction time and Clem makes sense for accuracy with all those bane snipes ☺️
On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote: Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player.
2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun.
Been watching all the games on both streams. Pretty sure this is the best and most entertaining Starcraft I have ever seen. So many awesome and close series.
It is a shame we don't have more protoss players though. Beomulf has mentioned he thought the issue was Liberator range, but pretty sure not a single TvP this tournament has been due to late game Liberators. Rather, the issue is that protoss relies so much on timings. If opponent attacks before charge --> gg. If opponent attacks before storm --> gg, and then even you need to be able to land these. And finally even if you defend, you still need to win late game.
On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote: Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player.
2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun.
Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions
On December 17 2023 19:14 Hider wrote: Been watching all the games on both streams. Pretty sure this is the best and most entertaining Starcraft I have ever seen. So many awesome and close series.
It is a shame we don't have more protoss players though. Beomulf has mentioned he thought the issue was Liberator range, but pretty sure not a single TvP this tournament has been due to late game Liberators. Rather, the issue is that protoss relies so much on timings. If opponent attacks before charge --> gg. If opponent attacks before storm --> gg, and then even you need to be able to land these. And finally even if you defend, you still need to win late game.
IMO Libs are part of the problem, even if only indirectly. Because say if Libs were slightly nerfed, then Protoss would also know they can take their time more and not feel pressured to end the game before lots of Libs are added.
IMO, there doesn't seem to be a need for them to be reactorable. They are a high tech unit, basically a flying tank, so it should be tech lab, especially if they want to keep the decreased cost. This would make the investment needed to add Tempests more equivalent to the time needed to invest in Libs.
At least the Tempest buff did help a little in making the costly transition more worth it vs Libs.
Protoss does seem fragile in PvT, being put into high pressure situations that require really good control/coordination and army splitting to break a simple sieged position that is much easier for the Terran to control. But with the recent patches it does seem fine to me now. Protoss power noticeably still spikes once they get 6-8 Disruptors in their army, such as when Creator starts to suddenly swing a very close game into a 120 supply army vs 80 supply army and end the game in a minute.
It just seems like since Protoss power later on heavily requires on AOE units to be able to fight basic MMM, Protoss can quickly lose a fight/game if they don't land good AOE, meanwhile for Terran if they lose their tech units it isn't as drastic. Of course it's really hard to compare race differences like this though, for example sometimes it feels Terran has much higher fire powerful, but Protoss can reinforce easier and it's really powerful that in the lategame Protoss can warp in 20 gateway units into a fight.
On December 17 2023 19:14 Hider wrote: Been watching all the games on both streams. Pretty sure this is the best and most entertaining Starcraft I have ever seen. So many awesome and close series.
It is a shame we don't have more protoss players though. Beomulf has mentioned he thought the issue was Liberator range, but pretty sure not a single TvP this tournament has been due to late game Liberators. Rather, the issue is that protoss relies so much on timings. If opponent attacks before charge --> gg. If opponent attacks before storm --> gg, and then even you need to be able to land these. And finally even if you defend, you still need to win late game.
IMO Libs are part of the problem, even if only indirectly. Because say if Libs were slightly nerfed, then Protoss would also know they can take their time more and not feel pressured to end the game before lots of Libs are added.
It's terran players that doesn't like taking their time and instead tries to end the game with timing attacks. This is what we saw every single Tvp in this tournament. Protoss wants to get to late game.
Libs are super strong admittedly and on some maps I think they are broken when they can deny mining and thus forces air.
However, as long as protoss players have more bases, it seems to be balanced around that. And I think this is an interesting dynamic.
Hypothetically speaking, if what you were saying is true, and terran late game actually is slightly too strong, I rather balance this around buffs to protoss that makes it easier to abuse the immobility of the terran army. E.g. Immortals movement speed upgrade that also makes them resistant to Concussive Shell.
being put into high pressure situations that require really good control/coordination and army splitting to break a simple sieged position that is much easier for the Terran to control
Managing libs, ghosts, bio on many bases is insanely hard. There is a reason Heromarine hasn't won a late game against a 6.6k + protoss player in years (slight overexaggeration). Late game is more forgiving for protoss because they have better economy and can afford to make mistakes - terran cannot. Although if terran players "perfectly" (and it's map dependent how easy this is), it's indeed hard for protoss.
But I watched a ton of PvT's this past month - I don't think we can make anything conclusive on late game TvP yet.
However, TvP timing attacks is clearly an issue. Majority of the protoss losses this tournament in PvT were due to protoss getting attacked slightly before a critical upgrade.
It just seems like since Protoss power later on heavily requires on AOE units to be able to fight basic MMM
This has always been the case, but in today's meta I think it's the closest we have ever been to not be the case. (MMM isn't a thing in today's TvP. It's always with tanks as timings or ghosts as well, so I assume you mean MMM + ghosts)
Dependant on if you count Colossus as AoE or not; Protoss players can in many situations be okay with Colossus as only AoE source as long for long streches of the game if they play fast enough. Disruptors seems optionally which I think is a good thing.
Generally the gameplay and unit compositions in TvP are interesting - but it's simply too hard for protoss to consistently get there.
On December 17 2023 19:14 Hider wrote: Been watching all the games on both streams. Pretty sure this is the best and most entertaining Starcraft I have ever seen. So many awesome and close series.
It is a shame we don't have more protoss players though. Beomulf has mentioned he thought the issue was Liberator range, but pretty sure not a single TvP this tournament has been due to late game Liberators. Rather, the issue is that protoss relies so much on timings. If opponent attacks before charge --> gg. If opponent attacks before storm --> gg, and then even you need to be able to land these. And finally even if you defend, you still need to win late game.
IMO Libs are part of the problem, even if only indirectly. Because say if Libs were slightly nerfed, then Protoss would also know they can take their time more and not feel pressured to end the game before lots of Libs are added.
It's terran players that doesn't like taking their time and instead tries to end the game with timing attacks. This is what we saw every single Tvp in this tournament. Protoss wants to get to late game.
Libs are super strong admittedly and on some maps I think they are broken when they can deny mining and thus forces air.
However, as long as protoss players have more bases, it seems to be balanced around that. And I think this is an interesting dynamic. Hypothetically speaking, if what you were saying is true, and terran late game actually is slightly too strong (which again was now what we saw this tournament), then I rather balance this around buffs to protoss that makes it easier to abuse the immobility of the terran army.
Tbh i feel I've seen games both ways (Protoss ending the game instead of growing an advantage and going even later, and also Terran trying to end the game instead of going late). I feel like that's just a part of pro games, once they feel they've swung the game into their momentum then they'll try to convert it to a win. (Because it's also just tiring and emotionally taxing to play lots of long games, especially for Atlanta). So I'm not sure if i agree exactly on that part.
Yeah Libs being in places that you have to get a Phoenix to deal with seems really strong. It takes a long time to kill it with the Phoenix, that takes attention cus you have to go back and set the probes back to mining etc.
But yeah Protoss being able to have lots of bases does compensate in an interesting way, for example if they have 10-15 probes per base instead of 20 then all kinds of harass will be less effective. It does make sense to me for Terran's lategame comps to generally have a higher fire power, but be more immobile. And in general we do see Protoss players with their Stalker/Disruptor armies being very active and making the Terran run circles, so it might be balanced out. But i do think there might be some maps where Libs are very strong, maps where it's harder to flank or surround the Libs from behind.
I think for endgame comp, Terran's mass BC is still stronger than Protoss even with the new Tempest and MS, but it's definitely closer now and not unwinnable for Protoss now that Tempests are more mobile and can start running away sooner if BCs try to Jump on top. And the MS can time warp faster and earlier, and have recall faster and earlier.
Managing libs, ghosts, bio on many bases is insanely hard. There is a reason Heromarine hasn't won a late game against a 6.6k + protoss player in years (slight overexaggeration). Late game is actually a lot more forgiving for protoss because they have better economy and can afford to make mistakes - terran cannot. Although if terran players "perfectly" (and it's map dependant how easy this is), it's indeed hard for protoss.
But I watched a ton of PvT's this past month - I don't think we can make anything conclusive on late game TvP yet.
However, TvP timing attacks is clearly an issue. Majority of the protoss losses this tournament in PvT was due to protoss getting attacked slightly before a critical upgrade.
Oh i was talking moreso about the early timing attacks, those are easy to siege and setup compared to Protoss defending and sometimes having to split up their army between 2 bases. Like controlling phoenix, making sure immortals shoot tanks, zealots spread in the right place, stalkers blinking, etc. So maybe we are in agreement about early TvP timing attacks. I think the Battery overcharge nerf from 100% to 50% is still not fully compensated for yet. The Raven became quicker to build and cheaper, so Interference Matrix indirectly was a lot stronger. We've now made Interference Matrix be a little more of an investment, but it only partially makes up for the Raven being cheaper and quicker to get. (Once you build the 2nd Raven, you're still saving 50 gas etc.) It doesn't make up for the Overcharge nerf (the AA missile nerf doesn't either, nor do the Sentry buffs). But at least it's much more balanced now with all the new little buffs like Immortal barrier or Stasis having more sight range.
You're right that lategame is more forgiving for Protoss, cus with many bases and warp-ins it's easy to stay in the game and buy more time and keep playing. Meanwhile Terran if they get a wrong siege or bad engage, the opponent can push into their production and it's over. So yeah maybe it's OK for Terran armies to be super scary and Protoss having to run them in circles.
Overall though now that i think of it, it seems that recent pro TvP has led to many exciting back and forth macro games. Many games at Atlanta and the recent Katowice qualifiers led to 20-40 min games. There was a time, especially for GSL, where pro games would often end in the first push. But now we have lots of army fighting and positioning around the map, trading back and forth until the tides swing in one's favor or until the bases are mined out. TvP used to be a short MU despite being an interesting lategame, but it seems to be better now. There is also enough chances for players to make a comeback through all the different fights by trading sligthly better or getting a good EMP/Nova etc.
I think for endgame comp, Terran's mass BC is still stronger than Protoss even with the new Tempest and MS, but it's definitely closer now and not unwinnable for Protoss now that Tempests are more mobile and can start running away sooner if BCs try to Jump on top. And the MS can time warp faster and earlier, and have recall faster and earlier.
I think the only game we had this tournament where terran turtled was Maru vs Hero game 1 (which btw was one of the only boring games of the tournament) which Hero easily won while Maru turtled to BCs.
On December 17 2023 19:14 Hider wrote: Been watching all the games on both streams. Pretty sure this is the best and most entertaining Starcraft I have ever seen. So many awesome and close series.
It is a shame we don't have more protoss players though. Beomulf has mentioned he thought the issue was Liberator range, but pretty sure not a single TvP this tournament has been due to late game Liberators. Rather, the issue is that protoss relies so much on timings. If opponent attacks before charge --> gg. If opponent attacks before storm --> gg, and then even you need to be able to land these. And finally even if you defend, you still need to win late game.
i agree and everyone should take a bow. from Dustin Browder to David Kim to Monk to the Balance Council. To TL for managing a great map creation pipeline. To the players who put themselves through grueling super close series.
My sister in law is an occasional player and she gets up to Gold when she plays for a few days in a row. I play 6 months a year and I get as high as D-1. We both find the casters relate what is going on extremely well. The casting is top notch.
On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote: Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player.
2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun.
Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions
couldnt find a single vod beside searching pretty long. can u give an example, if u didnt mean this ironical (2013 all players were pretty bad compared to today...).
i wish we had more Protoss. Isn't it ironical that the last introduced faction painted in Blizzard lore as the enigmatic mysterious race with a tiny population and odd religious leanings is also rare in competitive play. The next time a Protoss takes a big event it'll be like the movie 300 playing out in real life. Except its a video game. Other than that, its real.
Does anyone think that Protoss might need a slightly better defensive option vs mass crackling style? It doesn't seem easy or effective to spam battery/canon, because even if you try to clump them to reduce surface area, banelings will then become too effective. So you end up needing to spread them, and they become very inefficient vs cracklings.
Maybe having 1 sentry, HT, archon, or colossus defending a key base could be enough though, and we just don't see it. (Oracles and stasis are also very accessible and effective).
The other option is, stop making maps where later bases are super open and easy to attack into with a deathball. I don't understand why we can't have some bases be on high ground with a ramp or choke for example. Then you would need to pick the base's defenses apart more carefully in order to break up the ramp, or do things like use air units or drops.
SC2 maps used to have this, with 3-4 player spawns where you could use another main/nat's chokes and ramps. BW maps also often have chokes/ramps like this, in a game where it's already hard to move deathballs around. It helps promote more spread out gameplay with small skirmishes all over the map, rather than grouping your deathball up so you can take out bases 1 by 1 easily. I feel like SC2 maps are like this just because "deathball" style gameplay is natural for SC2, and so they try to keep areas more open to allow that, and cus maps have been like this forever. Instead we can de-emphasize deathball gameplay further by giving players ways to defend areas with a few units cost effectively. (Ex: lurkers, disruptors, or liberators above a ramp/choke). For example, Golden Wall did this a bit with the upper center bases or the corner bases being viable 4th/5ths. The upper center bases serve as a forward position you can attack from.
Big macro maps like Radhuset allow for players to have more chances for comebacks, and for them to get big economies and fight a lot, which is great. Problem is Zerg naturally has an advantage with huge maps, but we could easily counteract that by making some bases on huge maps have ramps/chokes like in BW. The other problem is that maps like Radhuset being very big, has the side effect of making the first 3-4 bases very easy to hold which can make the beginning boring (and end up favoring Protoss for example). So the way to solve these issues and have a big macro map with lots of fighting and chances to come back, without making the first 3-4 bases too easy to hold, is spread the bases out a little more so you can't just ball your army up to cover all 3-4 bases at once, BUT compensate by giving them ramps/chokes or other features. Now you have more spread out gameplay.
On December 17 2023 23:01 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: The other option is, stop making maps where later bases are super open and easy to attack into with a deathball. I don't understand why we can't have some bases be on high ground with a ramp or choke for example.
my Zerg account outranks my terran account precisely because .. with 1 click i can just "throw some zerglings and banelings at it" and then ignore it and do other stuff. The "it" being any later base.
even at the most advanced levels can't Zerg initiate offense with less thought and clicks?
On December 17 2023 00:33 Luolis wrote: Creator ties it up vs Kelazhur after getting an advantage with a proxy oracle build. Meanwhile Harstem lost to Reynor in a latelategame.
On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote: Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player.
2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun.
Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions
couldnt find a single vod beside searching pretty long. can u give an example, if u didnt mean this ironical (2013 all players were pretty bad compared to today...).
Well, actually I had a few games in mind but turns out they were all from 2014-2015. For 2013 specifically it's probably true he just sticked to bio multitask
On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote: Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player.
2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun.
Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions
couldnt find a single vod beside searching pretty long. can u give an example, if u didnt mean this ironical (2013 all players were pretty bad compared to today...).
Well, actually I had a few games in mind but turns out they were all from 2014-2015. For 2013 specifically it's probably true he just sticked to bio multitask
Yeah i find it pretty interesting he went from that to the opposite, like turtling in TvZ. I guess he's just playing the way he thinks is best to win, but it seems most players have a playstyle and stick to it generally.
On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote: Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player.
2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun.
Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions
couldnt find a single vod beside searching pretty long. can u give an example, if u didnt mean this ironical (2013 all players were pretty bad compared to today...).
Well, actually I had a few games in mind but turns out they were all from 2014-2015. For 2013 specifically it's probably true he just sticked to bio multitask
Yeah i find it pretty interesting he went from that to the opposite, like turtling in TvZ. I guess he's just playing the way he thinks is best to win, but it seems most players have a playstyle and stick to it generally.
if I recall correctly he went to a most slow pace style because of his troubles with the shoulder. Even in this tournament you can see how Maru stretches and takes care of his right shoulder (mouse one I think)
On December 18 2023 00:23 RandomPlayer wrote: Is it true that in 40 minutes there will be a StormGate showmatch in ESL Atlanta? I can't find where to watch it, why does it have to be so difficult.
It will be cast on the ESL twitch channel, not ESL_SC2
On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote: Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player.
2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun.
Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions
couldnt find a single vod beside searching pretty long. can u give an example, if u didnt mean this ironical (2013 all players were pretty bad compared to today...).
Well, actually I had a few games in mind but turns out they were all from 2014-2015. For 2013 specifically it's probably true he just sticked to bio multitask
Yeah i find it pretty interesting he went from that to the opposite, like turtling in TvZ. I guess he's just playing the way he thinks is best to win, but it seems most players have a playstyle and stick to it generally.
if I recall correctly he went to a most slow pace style because of his troubles with the shoulder. Even in this tournament you can see how Maru stretches and takes care of his right shoulder (mouse one I think)
Yeah, hes started playing more turtling style and Mech since having shoulder injury and required surgegy. Since then, hes been back to his aggressive style, partly because of the meta change (Ghost/Raven nerf ect.) and the map change as well. These days hes rarely playing turtling unless he did something bad, falling behind and is forced to defend at home.
On December 18 2023 00:23 RandomPlayer wrote: Is it true that in 40 minutes there will be a StormGate showmatch in ESL Atlanta? I can't find where to watch it, why does it have to be so difficult.
Pretty sure it will be on esl_sc2 stream. Semifinals doesnt start for another 4h so it makes sense
On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote: Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player.
2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun.
Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions
couldnt find a single vod beside searching pretty long. can u give an example, if u didnt mean this ironical (2013 all players were pretty bad compared to today...).
Well, actually I had a few games in mind but turns out they were all from 2014-2015. For 2013 specifically it's probably true he just sticked to bio multitask
I'm not just talking about the obvious similarities in their playstyle. Maru is a stupidly good all arounder now, but he was still figuring out his macro in 2013 and relied on playing games at a breakneck pace to force his opponent into making errors. Over time, Maru papered over the gaps and was able to develop a more robust playstyle in his game and I think Clem is steadily doing the same.
When it comes to Clem and 2013 Maru, it has to be stated that both of them play their own brand of Terran. 2013 Maru had respectable macro and the best micro around. No other Terran could replicate his multitasking, speed and unit management. This is where we're at with Clem, so the pacing is very reminiscent.
Remember how Maru played certain matchups differently than other Terrans (pvt being the most obvious)? He chose to do that because he had his own internal calculus as to how units lost and a million other things affected the result of the game. No one else could play like him, so no one else was able to duplicate his style to a tee. Clem is doing the exact same thing. I don't think there's a Terran that can play like him and I see the same "I know what I'm doing even if it doesn't always make sense to others" type of attitude to the game that Maru displayed in hots.
I have said it before and I will say it again: StormGate looks incredibly bland, generic, and derivative.
Even and precisely considering that it is still in the closed beta, I think it desparately lacks many more novel and interesting ideas, units, and mechanisms. Remember that this game is supposed to replace SC2. The early beta of SC2 WoL already featured three playable races with a wide variety of new and unique macro mechanisms and units – larva inject, warp gate, creep sprading, mules, banelings, sentries, queens, and so on and so forth, plus all of the concepts adopted from BroodWar. StormGate, in contrast, so far features only two fractions with mostly vanilla units, some of which are effectively copies of units familiar from SC and W3. It almost looks like a simple mobile strategy game.
I really hope this game will turn out great, but so far I do not see how it can be expected to even come close to replacing SC2.
On December 18 2023 01:29 Antithesis wrote: I have said it before and I will say it again: StormGate looks incredibly bland, generic, and derivative.
Even and precisely considering that it is still in the closed beta, I think it desparately lacks many more novel and interesting ideas, units, and mechanisms. Remember that this game is supposed to replace SC2. The early beta of SC2 WoL already featured three playable races with a wide variety of new and unique macro mechanisms and units – larva inject, warp gate, creep sprading, mules, banelings, sentries, queens, and so on and so forth, plus all of the concepts adopted from BroodWar. StormGate, in contrast, so far features only two fractions with mostly vanilla units, some of which are effectively copies of units familiar from SC and W3. It almost looks like a simple mobile strategy game.
I really hope this game will turn out great, but so far I do not see how it can be expected to even come close to replacing SC2.
It bewilders me why anyone thought/thinks it would replace sc2. Because it's made by some of the same guys?
On December 17 2023 09:16 Mizenhauer wrote: Clem reminds me so much of 2013 Maru—which is one of the greatest compliments I have ever given a StarCraft II player.
2013 Maru is more current byun. Maru at that time was the opposite of what he is today; prefered the simple but fast-paced composition relying on outmultitasking opponent. Clem today plays fast but he can play more technical compositions unlike byun.
Maru in 2013 could also play more technical compositions
I remember him mostly for his TvP in which he tried to extend the midgame and play constant dropplay. He would never get ghosts and many times wouldn't even get vikings vs colossus but pure MMM.
I was very inspired by that playstyle and played like that myself in HOTS.
It reminds me of what Byun attempts to do in TvT by not adding Ravens and instead "all-ining" on constant dropplay and army trading.
On December 18 2023 01:29 Antithesis wrote: I have said it before and I will say it again: StormGate looks incredibly bland, generic, and derivative.
Even and precisely considering that it is still in the closed beta, I think it desparately lacks many more novel and interesting ideas, units, and mechanisms. Remember that this game is supposed to replace SC2. The early beta of SC2 WoL already featured three playable races with a wide variety of new and unique macro mechanisms and units – larva inject, warp gate, creep sprading, mules, banelings, sentries, queens, and so on and so forth, plus all of the concepts adopted from BroodWar. StormGate, in contrast, so far features only two fractions with mostly vanilla units, some of which are effectively copies of units familiar from SC and W3. It almost looks like a simple mobile strategy game.
I really hope this game will turn out great, but so far I do not see how it can be expected to even come close to replacing SC2.
I think it looks fun and I'll play it. I don't really care about the "sc2-killer" stuff even though I understand why it's important for the pro players and content creators.
On December 18 2023 01:29 Antithesis wrote: I have said it before and I will say it again: StormGate looks incredibly bland, generic, and derivative.
Even and precisely considering that it is still in the closed beta, I think it desparately lacks many more novel and interesting ideas, units, and mechanisms. Remember that this game is supposed to replace SC2. The early beta of SC2 WoL already featured three playable races with a wide variety of new and unique macro mechanisms and units – larva inject, warp gate, creep sprading, mules, banelings, sentries, queens, and so on and so forth, plus all of the concepts adopted from BroodWar. StormGate, in contrast, so far features only two fractions with mostly vanilla units, some of which are effectively copies of units familiar from SC and W3. It almost looks like a simple mobile strategy game.
I really hope this game will turn out great, but so far I do not see how it can be expected to even come close to replacing SC2.
It bewilders me why anyone thought/thinks it would replace sc2. Because it's made by some of the same guys?
Yes, this is literally and explicitly the mission stated by Frost Giant. They have set this goal for themselves.
Look, for example, at their Patreon page. It says: "Frost Giant was formed with a singular mission: to build the next great Blizzard-style RTS. You may know us from our previous work, including StarCraft II, Warcraft III, and Red Alert 2."
On December 18 2023 01:29 Antithesis wrote: I have said it before and I will say it again: StormGate looks incredibly bland, generic, and derivative.
Even and precisely considering that it is still in the closed beta, I think it desparately lacks many more novel and interesting ideas, units, and mechanisms. Remember that this game is supposed to replace SC2. The early beta of SC2 WoL already featured three playable races with a wide variety of new and unique macro mechanisms and units – larva inject, warp gate, creep sprading, mules, banelings, sentries, queens, and so on and so forth, plus all of the concepts adopted from BroodWar. StormGate, in contrast, so far features only two fractions with mostly vanilla units, some of which are effectively copies of units familiar from SC and W3. It almost looks like a simple mobile strategy game.
I really hope this game will turn out great, but so far I do not see how it can be expected to even come close to replacing SC2.
It bewilders me why anyone thought/thinks it would replace sc2. Because it's made by some of the same guys?
Ideally it would replace Sc2. If it was something that took all the best parts from Sc2 and made them even better while removing/fixing the worst parts. Yes I play that. But the way the game play plays atm (even if visual clarity is improved) is not a replacement for Sc2.
On December 18 2023 01:29 Antithesis wrote: I have said it before and I will say it again: StormGate looks incredibly bland, generic, and derivative.
Even and precisely considering that it is still in the closed beta, I think it desparately lacks many more novel and interesting ideas, units, and mechanisms. Remember that this game is supposed to replace SC2. The early beta of SC2 WoL already featured three playable races with a wide variety of new and unique macro mechanisms and units – larva inject, warp gate, creep sprading, mules, banelings, sentries, queens, and so on and so forth, plus all of the concepts adopted from BroodWar. StormGate, in contrast, so far features only two fractions with mostly vanilla units, some of which are effectively copies of units familiar from SC and W3. It almost looks like a simple mobile strategy game.
I really hope this game will turn out great, but so far I do not see how it can be expected to even come close to replacing SC2.
It bewilders me why anyone thought/thinks it would replace sc2. Because it's made by some of the same guys?
If it was something that took all the best parts from Sc2 and made them even better while removing/fixing the worst parts.
Isn't the problem that every single person has a different opinion on what the good parts and the bad parts are? But still sc2 is an incredible game and I don't see why a small indie company should be expected to come anywhere near
On December 18 2023 01:29 Antithesis wrote: I have said it before and I will say it again: StormGate looks incredibly bland, generic, and derivative.
Even and precisely considering that it is still in the closed beta, I think it desparately lacks many more novel and interesting ideas, units, and mechanisms. Remember that this game is supposed to replace SC2. The early beta of SC2 WoL already featured three playable races with a wide variety of new and unique macro mechanisms and units – larva inject, warp gate, creep sprading, mules, banelings, sentries, queens, and so on and so forth, plus all of the concepts adopted from BroodWar. StormGate, in contrast, so far features only two fractions with mostly vanilla units, some of which are effectively copies of units familiar from SC and W3. It almost looks like a simple mobile strategy game.
I really hope this game will turn out great, but so far I do not see how it can be expected to even come close to replacing SC2.
It bewilders me why anyone thought/thinks it would replace sc2. Because it's made by some of the same guys?
If it was something that took all the best parts from Sc2 and made them even better while removing/fixing the worst parts.
Isn't the problem that every single person has a different opinion on what the good parts and the bad parts are? But still sc2 is an incredible game and I don't see why a small indie company should be expected to come anywhere near
Don't you feel that besides the responsive unit movement - that it has "less of everything Sc2'ish"..
It looks to me that it starts with Sc2, keep responsive nit movement and tries to blend everything else together with other RTS games.
The alternative would be to start with Sc2, double down on certain parts that make the game unique, innovate on a few other parts and perhaps remove a few parts that are unnecasary.
On December 18 2023 02:10 Waxangel wrote: I'm getting nostalgic here; TL.net vibes are just like when War3 came out
People thought Wc3 was bland? Wc3 is incredibly slow and I can see why everyone used to Starcraft does not like that, however it's anything but bland, but incredibly innovative.
On December 18 2023 02:10 Waxangel wrote: I'm getting nostalgic here; TL.net vibes are just like when War3 came out
People thought Wc3 was bland? Wc3 is incredibly slow and I can see why everyone used to Starcraft does not like that, however it's anything but bland, but incredibly innovative.
On October 03 2002 21:47 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I uninstalled War3 a while ago. After WCG I'll make up my mind if I will actually play that boring game designed for 70 year olds.
Great to see you're hosting a money tournament though.
On December 18 2023 02:10 Waxangel wrote: I'm getting nostalgic here; TL.net vibes are just like when War3 came out
People thought Wc3 was bland? Wc3 is incredibly slow and I can see why everyone used to Starcraft does not like that, however it's anything but bland, but incredibly innovative.
On October 03 2002 21:47 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I uninstalled War3 a while ago. After WCG I'll make up my mind if I will actually play that boring game designed for 70 year olds.
Great to see you're hosting a money tournament though.
Yes; that doesn't surprise me. I also find Wc3 very boring now after having played Starcraft. It's really just a very very different type of game. Wc3 appealed to something quite different than Starcraft - because the games are on the opposite spectrums of competitive RTS games.
I think there is a large difference when the response is "this games sucks" vs "this game is bland". I actually think the latter is far worse, because the former might just be a subjective preference thing. For the latter, the worry is that you aren't doing anything unique/innovative compared to existing games.
On December 18 2023 02:10 Waxangel wrote: I'm getting nostalgic here; TL.net vibes are just like when War3 came out
People thought Wc3 was bland? Wc3 is incredibly slow and I can see why everyone used to Starcraft does not like that, however it's anything but bland, but incredibly innovative.
On October 03 2002 21:47 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I uninstalled War3 a while ago. After WCG I'll make up my mind if I will actually play that boring game designed for 70 year olds.
Great to see you're hosting a money tournament though.
Yes; that doesn't surprise me. I also find Wc3 very boring now after having played Starcraft. It's really just a very very different type of game. Wc3 appealed to something quite different than Starcraft - because the games are on the opposite spectrums of competitive RTS games.
On December 18 2023 02:21 Die4Ever wrote: Purple vs blue are strange color choices for the players
I asked and supposedly it's part of the game being in development; somehow colors are out of wack for 1v1 because implementing co-op in this current build/version.
On December 18 2023 01:43 Weavel wrote: This game should use stronger team colours. Battles are so hard to read :D
I asked Wax to help me reset my TLnet password so I can post here again but this is basically a weird quirk of this build, it was previously red/blue and will be the normal red/blue again by the next time people see the game. On the plus side it helped outline more issues with readability for our team to work on that generally.
stormgate as it stands doesn't look like it'll be for me (just catching up on the game from earlier). i didn't enjoy wc3 at the time i don't really want to play wc3 2. hopefully sc2/bw will continue
On December 18 2023 01:43 Weavel wrote: This game should use stronger team colours. Battles are so hard to read :D
I asked Wax to help me reset my TLnet password so I can post here again but this is basically a weird quirk of this build, it was previously red/blue and will be the normal red/blue again by the next time people see the game. On the plus side it helped outline more issues with readability for our team to work on that generally.
I watch Starcraft once in a blue moon (did manage to watch that insane Oliveira run but don't think I've watched since then), and the level of play is so incredibly high nowadays. That pressure from Cure was absolutely mental, and Dark defending so well for so long despite Cure being smart and relentless was impressive too.
TvZ has always been the goat match up and it delivers again. So hype for Serral vs Clem too
On December 18 2023 05:49 Supter wrote: I watch Starcraft once in a blue moon (did manage to watch that insane Oliveira run but don't think I've watched since then), and the level of play is so incredibly high nowadays. That pressure from Cure was absolutely mental, and Dark defending so well for so long despite Cure being smart and relentless was impressive too.
TvZ has always been the goat match up and it delivers again. So hype for Serral vs Clem too
Yeah, and the average Serral vs. Clem series is at an even higher level than what Dark and Cure just showed. Cure's lategame TvZ is not the strongest among the top terrans.
Sometimes it is exhausting to even watch Clem's constant aggression in TvZ.
On December 18 2023 06:14 Nakajin wrote: Looking Serral play Jenga reminds me of the quote a TL writer had about God putting all of Taeja's skill points into Starcraft
Mules are the heroes here. I think their ability to make holding a single base for a brief amount of time so impactful is highly underrated from a viewer perspective, it's a big part of what makes lategame TvZ so exciting. Clem switching from trying to secure that bottom right base to going for the top left at just the right time was fantastic decision making
On December 18 2023 07:34 JimmyJRaynor wrote: the much maligned Balance Council deserves some props.
more like David Kim and Blizzard.
and Mike Morhaime's grandmother who gave him $10,000 to start Blizzard because everyone else in his family thought he was crazy. whenever you want to raid the cookie jar ... grandma is always the weak link.
On December 18 2023 07:39 Hider wrote: Wow, one of the best games of all time.
Serral 100% had it if he had gone for the mules, but I think he wasn't aware just how little Clem had left.
Yeah, a single BL to sit on that base would've probably won Serral the game. I'm pretty sure Clem was down to 1 ghost and no vikings. But the margins are so slim at that point and the game so hectic that with imperfect information, it's hard to tell if starting to go for broods is strong or just loses in the spot
On December 18 2023 07:34 JimmyJRaynor wrote: the much maligned Balance Council deserves some props.
They didn't do anything in the TvZ matchup. If anything, they made Zerg a bit too weak with the Baneling nerf.
This garbage take needs to die. Clearly banes are still built in every matchup, the baneling and zerg as a whole still perform just as well as before. This change didn't have anywhere near the yuuuge implications that everyone thought it might have. Shame an anyone who still pretends otherwise.
Man, this tournament keeps delivering. Starcraft has never been better to watch. Some times it's a shame viewership is so low, so many people don't know what they are missing out on.
On December 18 2023 07:34 JimmyJRaynor wrote: the much maligned Balance Council deserves some props.
They didn't do anything in the TvZ matchup. If anything, they made Zerg a bit too weak with the Baneling nerf.
This garbage take needs to die. Clearly banes are still built in every matchup, the baneling and zerg as a whole still perform just as well as before. This change didn't have anywhere near the yuuuge implications that everyone thought it might have. Shame an anyone who still pretends otherwise.
So we can remove "Combat Shield" from the game or give +5Hp instead of +10? -1 dmg to marine
Clem changed his style. He's always the crazy multitask aggressive player, but he played really defensive in the last two games. Planetary and turrets everywhere, cover the ID I'd think that's 2021 Maru playing. He deserves the win - this is the most perfect TvZ I've seen.
On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Damn great series I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him...
Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades.
Clem played game 3 so well that it won him the final map as well; Serral looked significantly less sharp in that one. His mental game is obviously great but he did seem a bit shaken
On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote: But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable
If Zerg keep playing the same Ultra-Corruptor against turtling Terran, then Terran will win championship this year.
what else should zerg do? without range or efficiency what is the win condition for zerg? besides "more bases", but without def advantage?
BLord - Infestor and play out the late game tech, hell even LingbaneHydra that Solar keep playing was looking more competitive than Ultra-Corruptor. Serral rely heavily on the sneaky Infestor spell but Clem didnt move his army out very far, keep scanning and slowly expanding while trading much better.
On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote: But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable
If Zerg keep playing the same Ultra-Corruptor against turtling Terran, then Terran will win championship this year.
what else should zerg do? without range or efficiency what is the win condition for zerg? besides "more bases", but without def advantage?
BLord - Infestor and play out the late game tech, hell even LingbaneHydra that Solar keep playing was looking more competitive than Ultra-Corruptor. Serral rely heavily on the sneaky Infestor spell but Clem didnt move his army out very far, keep scanning and slowly expanding while trading much better.
Serral also didn't try much with Nydus and could have been more proactive about mining outlying bases faster. He also didn't use burrow as well as I've seen in some of his games. That's probably because of all the pressure Clem was putting on him, but I've seen Serral play the same style better.
Beating Solar, Serral, and Dark would be an insane run, when's the last time a non-Zerg won a tournament beating all the top Zerg back to back (Clem didn't play Reynor, but with the form Reynor showed this tournament that would've been a bop.)
On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote: But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable
If Zerg keep playing the same Ultra-Corruptor against turtling Terran, then Terran will win championship this year.
what else should zerg do? without range or efficiency what is the win condition for zerg? besides "more bases", but without def advantage?
BLord - Infestor and play out the late game tech, hell even LingbaneHydra that Solar keep playing was looking more competitive than Ultra-Corruptor. Serral rely heavily on the sneaky Infestor spell but Clem didnt move his army out very far, keep scanning and slowly expanding while trading much better.
I'm not sure where I stand on the balance of TvZ - I think it's probably pretty good, but BL-infestor is not it in this patch. You give up all mobility to get an army that's... still worse than what Terran has.
On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote: But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable
If Zerg keep playing the same Ultra-Corruptor against turtling Terran, then Terran will win championship this year.
what else should zerg do? without range or efficiency what is the win condition for zerg? besides "more bases", but without def advantage?
BLord - Infestor and play out the late game tech, hell even LingbaneHydra that Solar keep playing was looking more competitive than Ultra-Corruptor. Serral rely heavily on the sneaky Infestor spell but Clem didnt move his army out very far, keep scanning and slowly expanding while trading much better.
Serral also didn't try much with Nydus and could have been more proactive about mining outlying bases faster. He also didn't use burrow as well as I've seen in some of his games. That's probably because of all the pressure Clem was putting on him, but I've seen Serral play the same style better.
Beating Solar, Serral, and Dark would be an insane run, when's the last time a non-Zerg won a tournament beating all the top Zerg back to back (Clem didn't play Reynor, but with the form Reynor showed this tournament that would've been a bop.)
Maru won KoB2 going through Reynor Dark and Serral. And Clem wasnt putting the pressure as much as he was defending on 5-6 base and start massing Orbital, he only smash Serral attack and countering while taking more base after each failed attack from Serral.
On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote: But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable
If Zerg keep playing the same Ultra-Corruptor against turtling Terran, then Terran will win championship this year.
what else should zerg do? without range or efficiency what is the win condition for zerg? besides "more bases", but without def advantage?
BLord - Infestor and play out the late game tech, hell even LingbaneHydra that Solar keep playing was looking more competitive than Ultra-Corruptor. Serral rely heavily on the sneaky Infestor spell but Clem didnt move his army out very far, keep scanning and slowly expanding while trading much better.
I'm not sure where I stand on the balance of TvZ - I think it's probably pretty good, but BL-infestor is not it in this patch. You give up all mobility to get an army that's... still worse than what Terran has.
I am not saying BLord - Infestor would be great against Clem, but I think its better than Ultra - Corruptors especially against the turtling style that Clem was playing in the last 2 games of this match.
On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Damn great series I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him...
Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades.
Clem should be a strong favorite though.
serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim.
Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage.
On December 18 2023 08:00 TossHeroes wrote: True “play like Clem”
Zerg is only playable if your name is Serral
Yeah, and that's why we have Dark in the finals who did pretty handily beat another strong terran player. As someone mentioned above, TvZ is at 35% winrate on this tournament after 43 games. What do you want, 80% winrate for Zerg? Will this be enough, as 65% is too low for you obviously?
On December 18 2023 07:57 TossHeroes wrote: But terran keep telling us tvz is unplayable
To be fair, Clem played out of his mind. Even by top-tier standards this was the absolute highest level of play.
Well deserved Clem, now please win this tournament!
Nah Clem always plays well against Serral (aka Serral slayer)
If anything this series shows how ridiculous late game terran is to kill. Clem had no business winning game 3 thx to mass mules
Clem did well against Serral a couple of years ago, not so much recently. Look at their head to head in 2023 (2022 as well), Serral won nearly every time. And this is the first time Clem won an offline series of any kind between the two.
And as I said a moment ago, we wouldn't get games like that g3 without the threat of mule hammering any new base. Serral played that style of running armies into Clem specifically to avoid him securing a 6th base. The whole game plan is to win because you've mined 2 more bases than your opponent. If mules didn't work like that this style of game simply would not happen, and so many of the great late game TvZ's hinge on the same principle. IMO, it makes late game matchups not involving terran less exciting that a base typically needs to be held for 4-5 minutes to have serious impact on the game.
On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Damn great series I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him...
Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades.
Clem should be a strong favorite though.
serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim.
Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage.
Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would likely have been a 60-40 favorite regardless.
On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Damn great series I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him...
Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades.
Clem should be a strong favorite though.
serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim.
Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage.
Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would also have been favorite regardless.
yes currently I agree clem is the favorite vs dark.
but to say serral is "much better" than dark is what i contested. Dark at his peak, nobody is "much better" than him. but that's the thing dark has been very up and down his career.
On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Damn great series I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him...
Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades.
Clem should be a strong favorite though.
serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim.
Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage.
Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would also have been favorite regardless.
Serral is in his own tier. Clem is a tier below and Solar/Dark probably in half a tier below Clem. So there is at least 1½ tier in difference vs Serral and Dark.
yes currently I agree clem is the favorite vs dark.
but to say serral is "much better" than dark is what i contested. Dark at his peak, nobody is "much better" than him. but that's the thing dark has been very up and down his career.
Those numbers indicate the skill difference is quite significant. There is a bigger difference (pre-tournament) between number 1 and number 2 in the world (serral vs clem) than number 2 and number 10.
On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Damn great series I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him...
Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades.
Clem should be a strong favorite though.
serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim.
Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage.
Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would also have been favorite regardless.
yes currently I agree clem is the favorite vs dark.
but to say serral is "much better" than dark is what i contested. Dark at his peak, nobody is "much better" than him. but that's the thing dark has been very up and down his career.
Dark just like to play too wild that ended up in him falling behind and had to climb up the mountain later. Serral is more consistent and a better planner, but Dark has that surprise factor in every single game. Despite Clem winning a whole bunch of matches against Dark this year, a part of those match involve Dark doing a bane bust or Nydus which Clem held and win in 5 minutes.
On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Damn great series I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him...
Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades.
Clem should be a strong favorite though.
serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim.
Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage.
Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would also have been favorite regardless.
yes currently I agree clem is the favorite vs dark.
but to say serral is "much better" than dark is what i contested. Dark at his peak, nobody is "much better" than him. but that's the thing dark has been very up and down his career.
Dark at his peak, sure, but is Dark at his peak right now? I'd say he's been playing at around his recent level here, which is certainly high but not unbeatable the way he's looked at times.
His and Serral's match win rates the past 6 months are 77% and 91%, respectively. I would call that a lot better for Serral, it's less than half the losses
Still, knowing Dark, he could 4-1 Clem in a ridiculous manner
On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Damn great series I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him...
Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades.
Clem should be a strong favorite though.
serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim.
Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage.
Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would also have been favorite regardless.
yes currently I agree clem is the favorite vs dark.
but to say serral is "much better" than dark is what i contested. Dark at his peak, nobody is "much better" than him. but that's the thing dark has been very up and down his career.
Dark at his peak, sure, but is Dark at his peak right now? I'd say he's been playing at around his recent level here, which is certainly high but not unbeatable the way he's looked at times.
His and Serral's match win rates the past 6 months are 77% and 91%, respectively. I would call that a lot better for Serral, it's less than half the losses
Still, knowing Dark, he could 4-1 Clem in a ridiculous manner
maybe its just me, but the way it was worded. anybody whos watched sc2 knows most pros have their ups and downs, but "much better" is not how i'd describe anybody over Dark.
Clem is definitely 'objectively' favored right now, but Dark has showed enough big game intangibles to give him a decent underdog chance in his current form.
On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Damn great series I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him...
Serral is much better. Although having watched some of the recent Clem vs Dark matchups. Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades.
Clem should be a strong favorite though.
serral is better and more consistent than dark, but he isn't "much better". The differences between these top tier players is slim.
Dark is absolutely at his peak a monster. But I do agree clem right now has the advantage.
Serral was a 75-25 favorite vs Clem according to bookies. Clem is a 65-35 favorite vs Dark. Now part of those is ofc based on Clem just beating Dark. However, Clem would also have been favorite regardless.
Serral is in his own tier. Clem is a tier below and Solar/Dark probably in half a tier below Clem. So there is at least 1½ tier in difference vs Serral and Dark.
yes currently I agree clem is the favorite vs dark.
but to say serral is "much better" than dark is what i contested. Dark at his peak, nobody is "much better" than him. but that's the thing dark has been very up and down his career.
Those numbers indicate the skill difference is quite significant. There is a bigger difference (pre-tournament) between number 1 and number 2 in the world (serral vs clem) than number 2 and number 10.
those are just odds of winning, I would not use those odds as a way to describe these top pros vs each other and their level of play.
Clem at his peak is like the Serral version of Terran (and will beat Serral at TvZ). I don't think Dark can beat him in a Bo7 unless he gets tilted (or tired or wrist issues).
On December 18 2023 07:58 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Damn great series I wanted Serral to win, but didn't really wanna see a ZvZ finals haha
I'm curious to see how Dark will compare to Serral, if they are near the same tier or if Clem will just roll him...
Dark can definitely win, especially if Clem plays undisciplined and makes him self vulnerable to basetrades.
Clem should be a strong favorite though.
This was what I was worried about. Based on their previous recent series Clem seems to be a clearly better player in most phases of the game, however he has had a habit of him leaving self exposed to basetrades. Dark will punish that. Better to take it slightly slower instead.
"pensive". when you want to take your english to the next level... listen in on ZombieGrub. However, keep in mind, she spells words like honour, armour, and favourite incorrectly.
On December 18 2023 09:19 jack_less wrote: In the end, Serral supported Clem well. so much nerf, because of Serral the outlier. If Dark can do that, it's like real magic.
Zerg were nerfed so much that they have "only" 65% winrate in ZvT in this tournament out of 43 games. What winrate do you want for Zerg to have - will 80% in ZvT be enough for you? Maybe 90%?
On December 18 2023 09:19 jack_less wrote: In the end, Serral supported Clem well. so much nerf, because of Serral the outlier. If Dark can do that, it's like real magic.
Zerg were nerfed so much that they have "only" 65% winrate in ZvT in this tournament out of 43 games. What winrate do you want for Zerg to have - will 80% in ZvT be enough for you? Maybe 90%?
These late game clearly shows the terran are favoured by a lot in the late game
We need dark to save us and do rogue style all in for the rest of the series. Beast mode Rogue was pure entertainment. Win and manage to trigger the whole terran/Protoss community. We need back asap
On December 18 2023 09:19 jack_less wrote: In the end, Serral supported Clem well. so much nerf, because of Serral the outlier. If Dark can do that, it's like real magic.
Zerg were nerfed so much that they have "only" 65% winrate in ZvT in this tournament out of 43 games. What winrate do you want for Zerg to have - will 80% in ZvT be enough for you? Maybe 90%?
"dissecting a dead zerg in a lab is one thing... unleashing them on man is quite another ... General Clem you must go into this DreamHack Atlanta tournament with both eyes open! ! !" "Are you prepared to go all the way with this General Clem?"
I wonder how many $50 Terran skin sets are going to be sold on BNet if Clem takes this?
Dark really should have won game 3, if only he had taken geysers. However, I think Clem's speed makes it easier for their opponents to make make these mistakes they normally don't do against other players.
Clem attack in game 4 was not needed. He still won because he was so far ahead, however he needs to stop open himself up to base trades. It looks like it's the only way he can possibly lose against Dark.
On December 18 2023 10:15 NarutO wrote: Right now Clem is #1 TvZ world. Maru in his very best form is still peak for me but he hasnt shown that in a long time
He has been #1 TvZ in term of consistency for the last 2 years or so. Maru used to have the advantage over Clem because of his lategame power, but now Clem is starting to play amazing lategame as well.
after rewatching some of the games I wonder about the soundproofing?
eg) Serral vs Clem g3 viking intercept was a little too perfect. I wouldn't have thought anything of it but the additional attack move to the right issued is what really made me raise my eyebrow.
Also every time the casters said burrowed infestor there was pretty much always a scan the second after. Much more noticeable on ones completely idle for prolonged periods and on edge of terrain. Just inconsistencies with instances in which it wasted stated vs when casters were occupied with something else and scans appeared to be lacking
Idk the venue setup or if the stream cast was even broadcast to the live audience but if any of the players could let us know that would be great.
Just made me think back to early MLG's it was terrible and you could hear casters pretty clearly if you sacrificed game sound.
Regardless gg's even though this tournament did renew my hate for liberators existing as a unit. Also if this was the case it doesn't detract at all from Clem's win and performance, it's entirely the tournament organizer's fault.
On December 18 2023 10:15 NarutO wrote: Right now Clem is #1 TvZ world. Maru in his very best form is still peak for me but he hasnt shown that in a long time
He has been #1 TvZ in term of consistency for the last 2 years or so. Maru used to have the advantage over Clem because of his lategame power, but now Clem is starting to play amazing lategame as well.
IEM Katowice Maru was at this skill level (at least). He made Solar and Ragnarok look like they don't belong there. But yeah, since then he has been inconsistent
On December 18 2023 16:57 Agh wrote: after rewatching some of the games I wonder about the soundproofing?
eg) Serral vs Clem g3 viking intercept was a little too perfect. I wouldn't have thought anything of it but the additional attack move to the right issued is what really made me raise my eyebrow.
Also every time the casters said burrowed infestor there was pretty much always a scan the second after. Much more noticeable on ones completely idle for prolonged periods and on edge of terrain. Just inconsistencies with instances in which it wasted stated vs when casters were occupied with something else and scans appeared to be lacking
Idk the venue setup or if the stream cast was even broadcast to the live audience but if any of the players could let us know that would be great.
Just made me think back to early MLG's it was terrible and you could hear casters pretty clearly if you sacrificed game sound.
Regardless gg's even though this tournament did renew my hate for liberators existing as a unit. Also if this was the case it doesn't detract at all from Clem's win and performance, it's entirely the tournament organizer's fault.
Doubt it. Clem has just really good awareness and did set up an extremely well thought out defense. Also as soon as Serral moved his army towards Clem, Clem was scanning with 3-4 scans the whole vicinity around his defending army. He did that every time Serral moved and got 9 out of 10 Infestetors this way before they could fungal
On December 18 2023 16:57 Agh wrote: after rewatching some of the games I wonder about the soundproofing?
eg) Serral vs Clem g3 viking intercept was a little too perfect. I wouldn't have thought anything of it but the additional attack move to the right issued is what really made me raise my eyebrow.
Also every time the casters said burrowed infestor there was pretty much always a scan the second after. Much more noticeable on ones completely idle for prolonged periods and on edge of terrain. Just inconsistencies with instances in which it wasted stated vs when casters were occupied with something else and scans appeared to be lacking
Idk the venue setup or if the stream cast was even broadcast to the live audience but if any of the players could let us know that would be great.
Just made me think back to early MLG's it was terrible and you could hear casters pretty clearly if you sacrificed game sound.
Regardless gg's even though this tournament did renew my hate for liberators existing as a unit. Also if this was the case it doesn't detract at all from Clem's win and performance, it's entirely the tournament organizer's fault.
They play each other all the time so it was probably just something Serral has done against him before and Clem anticipated it
Clem is on excellent form and played fantastic, but something smelled fishy from Dark's play, almost making me wonder if he betted himself to lose, LOL. specifically game 2 or 3, where he opened no gas 3 hatch, and had upper hand, and was not mining gas for longest time, just played ling baneling till he died.
On December 18 2023 22:48 PurE)Rabbit-SF wrote: Clem is on excellent form and played fantastic, but something smelled fishy from Dark's play, almost making me wonder if he betted himself to lose, LOL. specifically game 2 or 3, where he opened no gas 3 hatch, and had upper hand, and was not mining gas for longest time, just played ling baneling till he died.
Nah, these sorts of play are typical for Dark. He routinely opens with suboptimal buildorders and stays on inferior or weird army compositions for too long. To be honest, Dark had no business winning even the single match he won against Clem, but his basetrade shenanigans in some magical way again turned the game around, as they so often do.
To me it was clear that after Clem beat Serral, he will (barring some form of meltdown) also beat Dark. Clem vs. Serral felt like the real finals, especially in terms of the level of play.
On December 18 2023 16:57 Agh wrote: after rewatching some of the games I wonder about the soundproofing?
eg) Serral vs Clem g3 viking intercept was a little too perfect. I wouldn't have thought anything of it but the additional attack move to the right issued is what really made me raise my eyebrow.
Also every time the casters said burrowed infestor there was pretty much always a scan the second after. Much more noticeable on ones completely idle for prolonged periods and on edge of terrain. Just inconsistencies with instances in which it wasted stated vs when casters were occupied with something else and scans appeared to be lacking
Idk the venue setup or if the stream cast was even broadcast to the live audience but if any of the players could let us know that would be great.
Just made me think back to early MLG's it was terrible and you could hear casters pretty clearly if you sacrificed game sound.
Regardless gg's even though this tournament did renew my hate for liberators existing as a unit. Also if this was the case it doesn't detract at all from Clem's win and performance, it's entirely the tournament organizer's fault.
The audio levels for the commentators was actually pretty low at this event, I highly doubt the players could hear that. For the interviews I actually had to open twitch on my phone and hold it to my ear to hear what they were saying lol
Soundproofing has always been an issue at LAN events. I watch a fair amount of CS:GO and now CS2 tournaments on LAN. Players always say they can hear the crowds and casters so they use that as cues on what to do in game.
On December 18 2023 16:57 Agh wrote: after rewatching some of the games I wonder about the soundproofing?
eg) Serral vs Clem g3 viking intercept was a little too perfect. I wouldn't have thought anything of it but the additional attack move to the right issued is what really made me raise my eyebrow.
Also every time the casters said burrowed infestor there was pretty much always a scan the second after. Much more noticeable on ones completely idle for prolonged periods and on edge of terrain. Just inconsistencies with instances in which it wasted stated vs when casters were occupied with something else and scans appeared to be lacking
Idk the venue setup or if the stream cast was even broadcast to the live audience but if any of the players could let us know that would be great.
Just made me think back to early MLG's it was terrible and you could hear casters pretty clearly if you sacrificed game sound.
Regardless gg's even though this tournament did renew my hate for liberators existing as a unit. Also if this was the case it doesn't detract at all from Clem's win and performance, it's entirely the tournament organizer's fault.
They play each other all the time so it was probably just something Serral has done against him before and Clem anticipated it
random backstage anecdote here is that Reynor was watching this game, and he gave some reaction to the affect of "so predictable" when he saw the 6 dropperlords morphing in production tab. But why do I even have to invoke a progamer view? I think most regular viewers would be familiar with Serral's affinity for drops. So I think all around it's pretty obvious for Clem to be aware and be on the lookout
Maru is the new Rogue. Can be absolutely incredible and destroy everyone in a tournament without it seeming close, but can also just bomb out early showing very sloppy gameplay. Really happy for Clem that he finally won a big offline tournament though
On December 19 2023 17:19 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Maru is the new Rogue. Can be absolutely incredible and destroy everyone in a tournament without it seeming close, but can also just bomb out early showing very sloppy gameplay. Really happy for Clem that he finally won a big offline tournament though
Dunno. Maru has been slumping pretty hard since GSL S2. Right now I don't get the vibes from him that he'll be back to top dog anytime soon.
Let's all have a moment of silence for the tragic losses of the many great Protoss players in this event. These players fought a futile battle knowing their only honour would be that of surviving longer than any other Protoss.
The last flame of hope extinguished after the last Protoss victory on Oceanborn by Classic in the RO8. Classic's big win that got him to the RO8, further than any other Protoss, was not broadcast. The greatest Protoss victory goes unseen, unrecognized, unaffirmed. Decades from now people will begin to claim the Protoss never existed and that Aiur was always the land of the Zerg. Soon we will see claims that the slaughter of the Protoss on Aiur never happened.
On December 20 2023 03:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Let's all have a moment of silence for the tragic losses of the many great Protoss players in this event. These players fought a futile battle knowing their only honour would be that of surviving longer than any other Protoss.
The last flame of hope extinguished after the last Protoss victory on Oceanborn by Classic in the RO8. Classic's big win that got him to the RO8, further than any other Protoss, was not broadcast. The greatest Protoss victory goes unseen, unrecognized, unaffirmed. Decades from now people will begin to claim the Protoss never existed and that Aiur was always the land of the Zerg. Soon we will see claims that the slaughter of the Protoss on Aiur never happened.
The Protoss are indeed a forgotten people.
Does Classic even count as Protoss? After all, he switched from Terran...
On December 20 2023 03:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Let's all have a moment of silence for the tragic losses of the many great Protoss players in this event. These players fought a futile battle knowing their only honour would be that of surviving longer than any other Protoss.
The last flame of hope extinguished after the last Protoss victory on Oceanborn by Classic in the RO8. Classic's big win that got him to the RO8, further than any other Protoss, was not broadcast. The greatest Protoss victory goes unseen, unrecognized, unaffirmed. Decades from now people will begin to claim the Protoss never existed and that Aiur was always the land of the Zerg. Soon we will see claims that the slaughter of the Protoss on Aiur never happened.
The Protoss are indeed a forgotten people.
Living in the shadows until they rise (again) like a Phoenix from the Stargate ashes! MaxPax for future glory
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