|
On June 16 2022 02:30 Philippe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2022 02:17 JJH777 wrote:On June 16 2022 00:24 Philippe wrote:On June 15 2022 09:24 argonautdice wrote:
Kind of surprised NA only gets 2 region-locked spots out of 32, while EU basically gets 14. The low attendance of the qualifier invalidates the merit of asking for a third NA slot, and that would also means that out of 13 players, 25 percent of them should qualify ? hum ... Also seeing at least one of Neeb, Astrea or Scarlett getting booted out instead of all the three being almost guaranteed to go to Krefeld sounds more exciting, and anyway is merely mirroring the number of seeded NA slots for Valencia. I also don't like too much why so few players from NA play in the Open Cups or similar events, which I suspect is part of the why behind Take's and hpjalpha's arguments. The wider disagreement also has to do with the divide between those wanting to focus the slot allocation purely on merit/MMR/insert coin wise vs region fans who want more for those they support (anything outside Korea, Invites and EU). None side is either more right or wrong than the other but the organizer made his choice and it's final. EDIT : Specific tidbit about Scarlett, being able to score a lot of points in WTL has been balanced with getting beaten 0-2 by Nina and getting 0-5 in IEM, even playing the national lotto is less random than that. Is your 2nd paragraph implying that qualifiers based on merit would only have Korea and EU? Scarlett has better results historically and on aligulac even while slumping is above several EU players who are going to get to go. Also 3/13 vs 12/51 is basically the same percent. 12/51 is actually higher so lol at that "point". One player can't always bank on previous match history to get away with more opportunites than deserved if recent results are more than varied. IEM 2021 : 33-36th IEM 2022 : finishing second in the DH NA rankings but not winning a single series DH NA 2023 : beaten by Astrea IEM Pyeongchang is a long time ago. 12/51 based on higher attendance is more justified at least than 3/13 when more players could have attended NA, but you see it as a non-point. Agree to disagree.
Did the 7th-14th best EU players do any better at those events? The answers no so it's irrelevant because this discussion is if all of the EU top 15 (because Maxpax isn't going) is better than Scarlett which is completely ridiculous. She is like 10+ spots ahead of the 15th best EU player on aligulac and ahead of around 5 players (depending on final qual results) that are going to get to go.
|
On June 16 2022 02:34 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2022 02:30 Philippe wrote:On June 16 2022 02:17 JJH777 wrote:On June 16 2022 00:24 Philippe wrote:On June 15 2022 09:24 argonautdice wrote:
Kind of surprised NA only gets 2 region-locked spots out of 32, while EU basically gets 14. The low attendance of the qualifier invalidates the merit of asking for a third NA slot, and that would also means that out of 13 players, 25 percent of them should qualify ? hum ... Also seeing at least one of Neeb, Astrea or Scarlett getting booted out instead of all the three being almost guaranteed to go to Krefeld sounds more exciting, and anyway is merely mirroring the number of seeded NA slots for Valencia. I also don't like too much why so few players from NA play in the Open Cups or similar events, which I suspect is part of the why behind Take's and hpjalpha's arguments. The wider disagreement also has to do with the divide between those wanting to focus the slot allocation purely on merit/MMR/insert coin wise vs region fans who want more for those they support (anything outside Korea, Invites and EU). None side is either more right or wrong than the other but the organizer made his choice and it's final. EDIT : Specific tidbit about Scarlett, being able to score a lot of points in WTL has been balanced with getting beaten 0-2 by Nina and getting 0-5 in IEM, even playing the national lotto is less random than that. Is your 2nd paragraph implying that qualifiers based on merit would only have Korea and EU? Scarlett has better results historically and on aligulac even while slumping is above several EU players who are going to get to go. Also 3/13 vs 12/51 is basically the same percent. 12/51 is actually higher so lol at that "point". One player can't always bank on previous match history to get away with more opportunites than deserved if recent results are more than varied. IEM 2021 : 33-36th IEM 2022 : finishing second in the DH NA rankings but not winning a single series DH NA 2023 : beaten by Astrea IEM Pyeongchang is a long time ago. 12/51 based on higher attendance is more justified at least than 3/13 when more players could have attended NA, but you see it as a non-point. Agree to disagree. Did the 7th-14th best EU players do any better at those events? The answers no so it's irrelevant because this discussion is if all of the EU top 15 (because Maxpax isn't going) is better than Scarlett which is completely ridiculous. She is like 10+ spots ahead of the 15th best EU player on aligulac and ahead of around 5 players (depending on final qual results) that are going to get to go.
Well even with a 3rd spot for NA she lost in upper and lower so she wouldn't be in anyways.
|
On June 16 2022 02:28 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2022 00:24 Philippe wrote:On June 15 2022 09:24 argonautdice wrote:
Kind of surprised NA only gets 2 region-locked spots out of 32, while EU basically gets 14. The low attendance of the qualifier invalidates the merit of asking for a third NA slot, and that would also means that out of 13 players, 25 percent of them should qualify ? hum ... Also seeing at least one of Neeb, Astrea or Scarlett getting booted out instead of all the three being almost guaranteed to go to Krefeld sounds more exciting, and anyway is merely mirroring the number of seeded NA slots for Valencia. I also don't like too much why so few players from NA play in the Open Cups or similar events, which I suspect is part of the why behind Take's and hpjalpha's arguments. The wider disagreement also has to do with the divide between those wanting to focus the slot allocation purely on merit/MMR/insert coin wise vs region fans who want more for those they support (anything outside Korea, Invites and EU). None side is either more right or wrong than the other but the organizer made his choice and it's final. EDIT : Specific tidbit about Scarlett, being able to score a lot of points in WTL has been balanced with getting beaten 0-2 by Nina and getting 0-5 in IEM, even playing the national lotto is less random than that. While the actual signing up should impact the number of slot, like in this case KR getting 12 slots are too many considering about half of the top players are missing due to travel limitation (Rogue, Trap, Zest) or lack of interest (Dark, Cure), I find the reason to limit the slot because the region has less players active are purely comical. So you find its "more exciting" for have Neeb-Astrea-Scarlett to eliminate each other but its perfectly un-exciting to see EU players fighting it out for the qualifying spots? The "mirroring number of seed in to DH" reason is even more laughable, because from the original 16 spots to DH into 32 spots to HSC, the additional 16 spots are allocated as 2 invitation - 6 KR - and a whooping 8 for EU. So its fine for NA and other regions to stay the same, but its critical that EU get 8 more, right? Again, if "participation attitude" being a criteria for the number of qualifying spots, then EU should get 12 more spots, because I am seeing EU playesr are always super active, while the other region, KR included, are "lazy bum" comparatively. And I understand the that everything are based on the organizer decision, so it is what it is, but your reasoning is making me laugh real hard. And while I am not a fan of Scarlett myself, I just dont understand why people acting like shes isnt "top 12 EU" good. Shes 0-5 in IEM because that was an absolutely fucking tough group. So you think whoever your top 12 EU player is, they can go into that group and beat any of Reynor-Maru-Clem-Zoun-Byun? Like really? As for being 0-2 by Nina, I am pretty sure Nina or whoever the 3rd best player in NA is, can 2-0 a rank 11-12 EU player, given it Rattata, Spirit or even Skillous. I just dont see the difference in level to definitely see that ALL top 12 EU player is convincingly better than the 3rd best player in NA. Thats all.
She should definitely have taken more maps than just a single one, no matter how tough the group was. Not sure at face value her own run was tougher than for anyone else in the other groups. So quoting that argument isn't completely valid either. If Scarlett showed she can be as good from day 1 to day 365 instead of seeing her results going from zero to perfect and vice-versa, part of the debate wouldn't even be there, and she's pointed out for that more than many others based on her previous/current standing on the circuit.
At least, part of the Koreans who don't sign up for smaller events make up for showing up when needed and many of the other ones sign up for the small ones under OSC's purview. Many EU players grind like hell whenever possible. But from NA, why I always see the same few players taking the risk but the others don't ?
If there were more players on NA being more active, regardless of the level there would be more justification is asking for more slots. But for players like DisK or TriGGeR who are promising up-and-comers, where went Future ? He had a promising 2020-2021 but then completely disappeared and only now re-entered top 8.
You don't like some of the arguments that are thrown there but they are still there like it or not, but I at least don't disagree that the number of slots can be disproportionate. And the organizer is certainly more stingy than I am because I didn't throw the " 12th ranked EU is better than Scarlett " easy one.
On June 16 2022 02:34 JJH777 wrote:
Did the 7th-14th best EU players do any better at those events? The answers no so it's irrelevant because this discussion is if all of the EU top 15 (because Maxpax isn't going) is better than Scarlett which is completely ridiculous. She is like 10+ spots ahead of the 15th best EU player on aligulac and ahead of around 5 players (depending on final qual results) that are going to get to go.
Spirit won two more maps and one more series than her while he was technically not even qualified to go there and did it only because several players in front of him were unable or didn't want to go for various reasons. Aligulac isn't a complete reflection of how good a player as not taking account of the tier of an event either (and it shouldn't).
In any case, in the end everybody wants to defend their local bacon and it's only fair. Some (on other topics) just go the toxic way about it and that's what I dislike about the whole thing.
|
On June 15 2022 14:03 hjpalpha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2022 11:28 QOGQOG wrote:On June 15 2022 09:24 argonautdice wrote:
Kind of surprised NA only gets 2 region-locked spots out of 32, while EU basically gets 14. I'd agree, it feels like they're going to be scraping the bottom of the barrel on the last qualifier. From the top of my head eu still has - Harstem
- Rattata
- PtitDrogo
- MaNa
- DnS
plus probably some more for the 3rd Qualifier who i would put skill wise above trigger who just barely did not make it in the NA Qualifier. So imo giving more slots to NA would be wasted.
You're just listing the bottom of the barrel. I mean, forget NA, they should be bringing in Prince and NightMare if this is the bar for quality.
|
On June 16 2022 03:06 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2022 14:03 hjpalpha wrote:On June 15 2022 11:28 QOGQOG wrote:On June 15 2022 09:24 argonautdice wrote:
Kind of surprised NA only gets 2 region-locked spots out of 32, while EU basically gets 14. I'd agree, it feels like they're going to be scraping the bottom of the barrel on the last qualifier. From the top of my head eu still has - Harstem
- Rattata
- PtitDrogo
- MaNa
- DnS
plus probably some more for the 3rd Qualifier who i would put skill wise above trigger who just barely did not make it in the NA Qualifier. So imo giving more slots to NA would be wasted. You're just listing the bottom of the barrel. I mean, forget NA, they should be bringing in Prince and NightMare if this is the bar for quality.
To be fair, given the current sign up list for the last KR qualifier, Nightmare and Prince could make it if they sign up, so far we only have Maru Ryung Gumiho and Armani, and Nightmare actually signed up.
|
|
|
Love myself some NA protoss
N = Neeb
A = Astrea
|
Also are the prize pool info available for this event yet (it's not on Liquipedia)? That may factor into whether non-European players sign up for it.
|
On June 16 2022 11:35 argonautdice wrote:
Also are the prize pool info available for this event yet (it's not on Liquipedia)? That may factor into whether non-European players sign up for it.
Why would it be relevant with fully paid travel?
|
If anything btw I would argue that Korean slots are too many with 12. They do have the players but they have some players that are not interested and nowadays unfortunately a lot that cannot travel.
|
On June 17 2022 03:04 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2022 11:35 argonautdice wrote:
Also are the prize pool info available for this event yet (it's not on Liquipedia)? That may factor into whether non-European players sign up for it. Why would it be relevant with fully paid travel?
Because even if it's fully paid for, I wouldn't travel that far to compete in a prize pool of $400 dollars if that's the top prize. I know it's probably way more than that, but a small prize pool does not give enough incentives to go through all the trouble of travelling. Add on to that fact is that it's only for 4 days and also only gives out 275 ESL points for the top prize, the travel "costs" add up.
|
On June 17 2022 09:31 buzz_bender wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2022 03:04 TaKeTV wrote:On June 16 2022 11:35 argonautdice wrote:
Also are the prize pool info available for this event yet (it's not on Liquipedia)? That may factor into whether non-European players sign up for it. Why would it be relevant with fully paid travel? Because even if it's fully paid for, I wouldn't travel that far to compete in a prize pool of $400 dollars if that's the top prize. I know it's probably way more than that, but a small prize pool does not give enough incentives to go through all the trouble of travelling. Add on to that fact is that it's only for 4 days and also only gives out 275 ESL points for the top prize, the travel "costs" add up.
players get free drinks at hsc. plus germany+dutch have legalized gambling
|
On June 17 2022 09:31 buzz_bender wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2022 03:04 TaKeTV wrote:On June 16 2022 11:35 argonautdice wrote:
Also are the prize pool info available for this event yet (it's not on Liquipedia)? That may factor into whether non-European players sign up for it. Why would it be relevant with fully paid travel? Because even if it's fully paid for, I wouldn't travel that far to compete in a prize pool of $400 dollars if that's the top prize. I know it's probably way more than that, but a small prize pool does not give enough incentives to go through all the trouble of travelling. Add on to that fact is that it's only for 4 days and also only gives out 275 ESL points for the top prize, the travel "costs" add up.
I bet most Players travelling to HSC Don t go there only for the money but for the experience as well
HSC has been so much more than just the competition.
I compete in non esport. We Don t have any price money At all.
Instead of I want to go to an European or world championship, I habe to pay everything out of my own pocket. Same for everyone else (apart from a few pros from China, where my Sport is way way bigger)
Still there are lots of participants. It s not all about pricepool
|
On June 17 2022 13:57 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2022 09:31 buzz_bender wrote:On June 17 2022 03:04 TaKeTV wrote:On June 16 2022 11:35 argonautdice wrote:
Also are the prize pool info available for this event yet (it's not on Liquipedia)? That may factor into whether non-European players sign up for it. Why would it be relevant with fully paid travel? Because even if it's fully paid for, I wouldn't travel that far to compete in a prize pool of $400 dollars if that's the top prize. I know it's probably way more than that, but a small prize pool does not give enough incentives to go through all the trouble of travelling. Add on to that fact is that it's only for 4 days and also only gives out 275 ESL points for the top prize, the travel "costs" add up. I bet most Players travelling to HSC Don t go there only for the money but for the experience as well HSC has been so much more than just the competition. I compete in non esport. We Don t have any price money At all. Instead of I want to go to an European or world championship, I habe to pay everything out of my own pocket. Same for everyone else (apart from a few pros from China, where my Sport is way way bigger) Still there are lots of participants. It s not all about pricepool
Oh, I'm not disagreeing with that at all. HSC is popular amongst the EU players because of the experience and the fun of being together. All I'm saying is that not everyone (esp the KR players) has the same priorities and travelling halfway around the world only to stay for 4 days is not "easy". Add on to the fact that they very possibly have a bunch of COVID protocols upon returning to Korea, the motivation to want to go to HSC is not as high esp if the prize pool is a small one and also that they prob have just travelled to Dreamhack Valencia.
|
No Maru in HSC qualifier No 3
So his Team saying he would try to qualify for every event with EPT points was a lie.
Not realy unexpected but still sad
Favorites are probably Ragnarok, Ryung, Armani and Gumiho?
|
On June 17 2022 20:13 dbRic1203 wrote:
No Maru in HSC qualifier No 3
So his Team saying he would try to qualify for every event with EPT points was a lie.
Not realy unexpected but still sad
Tried my best. I did write CranK, Bunny, Rogue to contact him since I dont have him anywhere but yea.. sad
|
On June 17 2022 20:14 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2022 20:13 dbRic1203 wrote:
No Maru in HSC qualifier No 3
So his Team saying he would try to qualify for every event with EPT points was a lie.
Not realy unexpected but still sad Tried my best. I did write CranK, Bunny, Rogue to contact him since I dont have him anywhere but yea.. sad
Nothing more you could do, all good
|
lol, the man just dust us fans 3 times in a roll, thats some level of troling. Yeah, I guess he wasnt sold in experience and beer fest thing in Europe.
Btw, the HSC are going to be smashed in the middle of GSL S2? You run from Jul 19 to 25, the Ro4 GSL is on Jul 21?
|
Canada8989 Posts
On June 17 2022 20:16 dbRic1203 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2022 20:14 TaKeTV wrote:On June 17 2022 20:13 dbRic1203 wrote:
No Maru in HSC qualifier No 3
So his Team saying he would try to qualify for every event with EPT points was a lie.
Not realy unexpected but still sad Tried my best. I did write CranK, Bunny, Rogue to contact him since I dont have him anywhere but yea.. sad Nothing more you could do, all good
Thanks for trying 
There's nothing to do if the man just doesn't want to do it, HSC will be great anyway!
|
France12904 Posts
The focus should be on G5L for Maru, and the event will be a joy anyways!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
