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Canada8989 Posts
On February 27 2022 00:44 pandorasheep wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 00:41 Nakajin wrote:On February 27 2022 00:38 pandorasheep wrote:
Woke up late af! Anyone have a tl;dr on how Heromarine managed to beat Zoun? Game one Zoun was almost dead but turn it around in the long run. Game 2 (or 3?) was a failed cannon-void rush. Game 3 (or 2) was on that map with the two main at the bottom, Zoun tryed to go for some kind of 2 base timmjg with a gold and quick blink, didn't work and he got run over. Game 4 was a tank push into gg Thanks! Do you think Zoun could have won?
Could he beat HM? Yes
Did he throw the series? No, he just didn't seem to have a good grasp on HM style and oppening. Or just bad luck.
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On February 27 2022 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 00:57 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 26 2022 22:13 parksonsc wrote:
The Korean protoss really dont know much about HM. If they did, they would have just defended and tried to go late game everytime, since HM's TvP late game is pretty much tier-b level. It's not just Heromarine's late game that is weak against Protoss, pretty much all the pro Terrans are weak against late game Protoss, if the Protoss player has a decent late game like Trap or Stats. We just saw that Maru can't really beat late game Protoss either when he lost to Zoun in the late game yesterday. IMO, it's just Zest that doesn't have a great PvsT late game because Zest has always relied on timing attacks. Cure won GSL Season 3 because he knew Zest wasn't good at PvsT late game, so Cure just defended Zest's all-ins. In the same GSL Season 3, Cure knew that Trap was unbeatable in PvsT late game so Cure did timing attacks on Trap to stop him from getting there. If you look at Protoss as a whole, Protoss have been winning a lot of Premier level tournaments from 2020 to 2022. Zest just won the last GSL Super Tournament. And Trap won 6 Premier level tournaments in the last 1.5 years, including TSL 7, Next S1, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 1, DH Last Chance 2021, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 2, 2020 GSL Super Tournament 2:  Premier Tournaments. Also, from 2020 to 2022, Zest got 2nd place multiple times in Premier level tournaments, so he was in the position to win it. Finally, the top 50 EU GM was 68% Protoss when I checked about 2 months ago (I counted 34 Protoss in the top 50 EU GM). I think the % of Protoss in the top 50 EU GM has dropped since then, but it's still very high. EU ESL Cup week in and week out is dominated by Protoss entries. That would be very bad for the future pro scene if the makeup of the top 50 EU GM slanted even more Protoss. I was with you until you brought up GM ladder and ESL cups which don't matter at all
They do though. Because with the Korea pro scene dying out when the existing top Korean pros retire, the future of SC2 pros are EU players. You can already see the shift occurring, with more and more EU pros dominating at the top. The ESL EU Cup is dominated by Protoss entries, week after week. So it's Protoss players that are getting that needed top tier practice between the semi-pro to pro level at the ESL EU cup. I think the snapshot of the players entering the ESL EU cup today, will become a snapshot of what the pro scene will look like in the future, especially with EU pros becoming more important in SC2 as the top Korean pros retire.
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"Ryung is playing Home Alone" -Pig
Unfortunately it's only 5pm in Katowice and Rogue is already at the door knocking
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On February 27 2022 01:03 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On February 27 2022 00:57 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 26 2022 22:13 parksonsc wrote:
The Korean protoss really dont know much about HM. If they did, they would have just defended and tried to go late game everytime, since HM's TvP late game is pretty much tier-b level. It's not just Heromarine's late game that is weak against Protoss, pretty much all the pro Terrans are weak against late game Protoss, if the Protoss player has a decent late game like Trap or Stats. We just saw that Maru can't really beat late game Protoss either when he lost to Zoun in the late game yesterday. IMO, it's just Zest that doesn't have a great PvsT late game because Zest has always relied on timing attacks. Cure won GSL Season 3 because he knew Zest wasn't good at PvsT late game, so Cure just defended Zest's all-ins. In the same GSL Season 3, Cure knew that Trap was unbeatable in PvsT late game so Cure did timing attacks on Trap to stop him from getting there. If you look at Protoss as a whole, Protoss have been winning a lot of Premier level tournaments from 2020 to 2022. Zest just won the last GSL Super Tournament. And Trap won 6 Premier level tournaments in the last 1.5 years, including TSL 7, Next S1, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 1, DH Last Chance 2021, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 2, 2020 GSL Super Tournament 2: Premier Tournaments. Also, from 2020 to 2022, Zest got 2nd place multiple times in Premier level tournaments, so he was in the position to win it. Finally, the top 50 EU GM was 68% Protoss when I checked about 2 months ago (I counted 34 Protoss in the top 50 EU GM). I think the % of Protoss in the top 50 EU GM has dropped since then, but it's still very high. EU ESL Cup week in and week out is dominated by Protoss entries. That would be very bad for the future pro scene if the makeup of the top 50 EU GM slanted even more Protoss. I was with you until you brought up GM ladder and ESL cups which don't matter at all They do though. Because with the Korea pro scene dying out when the existing top Korean pros retire, the future of SC2 pros are EU players. You can already see the shift occurring, with more and more EU pros dominating at the top. The ESL EU Cup is dominated by Protoss entries, week after week. So it's Protoss players that are getting that needed top tier practice between the semi-pro to pro level at the ESL EU cup. I think the snapshot of the players entering the ESL EU cup today, will become a snapshot of what the pro scene will look like in the future, especially with EU pros becoming more important in SC2 as the top Korean pros retire.
Protoss actually op, quick nerf it 
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On February 27 2022 01:03 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On February 27 2022 00:57 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 26 2022 22:13 parksonsc wrote:
The Korean protoss really dont know much about HM. If they did, they would have just defended and tried to go late game everytime, since HM's TvP late game is pretty much tier-b level. It's not just Heromarine's late game that is weak against Protoss, pretty much all the pro Terrans are weak against late game Protoss, if the Protoss player has a decent late game like Trap or Stats. We just saw that Maru can't really beat late game Protoss either when he lost to Zoun in the late game yesterday. IMO, it's just Zest that doesn't have a great PvsT late game because Zest has always relied on timing attacks. Cure won GSL Season 3 because he knew Zest wasn't good at PvsT late game, so Cure just defended Zest's all-ins. In the same GSL Season 3, Cure knew that Trap was unbeatable in PvsT late game so Cure did timing attacks on Trap to stop him from getting there. If you look at Protoss as a whole, Protoss have been winning a lot of Premier level tournaments from 2020 to 2022. Zest just won the last GSL Super Tournament. And Trap won 6 Premier level tournaments in the last 1.5 years, including TSL 7, Next S1, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 1, DH Last Chance 2021, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 2, 2020 GSL Super Tournament 2: Premier Tournaments. Also, from 2020 to 2022, Zest got 2nd place multiple times in Premier level tournaments, so he was in the position to win it. Finally, the top 50 EU GM was 68% Protoss when I checked about 2 months ago (I counted 34 Protoss in the top 50 EU GM). I think the % of Protoss in the top 50 EU GM has dropped since then, but it's still very high. EU ESL Cup week in and week out is dominated by Protoss entries. That would be very bad for the future pro scene if the makeup of the top 50 EU GM slanted even more Protoss. I was with you until you brought up GM ladder and ESL cups which don't matter at all They do though. Because with the Korea pro scene dying out when the existing top Korean pros retire, the future of SC2 pros are EU players. You can already see the shift occurring, with more and more EU pros dominating at the top. The ESL EU Cup is dominated by Protoss entries, week after week. So it's Protoss players that are getting that needed top tier practice between the semi-pro to pro level at the ESL EU cup. I think the snapshot of the players entering the ESL EU cup today, will become a snapshot of what the pro scene will look like in the future, especially with EU pros becoming more important in SC2 as the top Korean pros retire.
isnt the EU cup dominated by 2 terrans winning like 75% of them? what use is it when 100 mid gm protoss apply for the top of the race that is underperforming hard
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On February 27 2022 01:08 Andi_Goldberger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 01:03 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 27 2022 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On February 27 2022 00:57 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 26 2022 22:13 parksonsc wrote:
The Korean protoss really dont know much about HM. If they did, they would have just defended and tried to go late game everytime, since HM's TvP late game is pretty much tier-b level. It's not just Heromarine's late game that is weak against Protoss, pretty much all the pro Terrans are weak against late game Protoss, if the Protoss player has a decent late game like Trap or Stats. We just saw that Maru can't really beat late game Protoss either when he lost to Zoun in the late game yesterday. IMO, it's just Zest that doesn't have a great PvsT late game because Zest has always relied on timing attacks. Cure won GSL Season 3 because he knew Zest wasn't good at PvsT late game, so Cure just defended Zest's all-ins. In the same GSL Season 3, Cure knew that Trap was unbeatable in PvsT late game so Cure did timing attacks on Trap to stop him from getting there. If you look at Protoss as a whole, Protoss have been winning a lot of Premier level tournaments from 2020 to 2022. Zest just won the last GSL Super Tournament. And Trap won 6 Premier level tournaments in the last 1.5 years, including TSL 7, Next S1, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 1, DH Last Chance 2021, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 2, 2020 GSL Super Tournament 2: Premier Tournaments. Also, from 2020 to 2022, Zest got 2nd place multiple times in Premier level tournaments, so he was in the position to win it. Finally, the top 50 EU GM was 68% Protoss when I checked about 2 months ago (I counted 34 Protoss in the top 50 EU GM). I think the % of Protoss in the top 50 EU GM has dropped since then, but it's still very high. EU ESL Cup week in and week out is dominated by Protoss entries. That would be very bad for the future pro scene if the makeup of the top 50 EU GM slanted even more Protoss. I was with you until you brought up GM ladder and ESL cups which don't matter at all They do though. Because with the Korea pro scene dying out when the existing top Korean pros retire, the future of SC2 pros are EU players. You can already see the shift occurring, with more and more EU pros dominating at the top. The ESL EU Cup is dominated by Protoss entries, week after week. So it's Protoss players that are getting that needed top tier practice between the semi-pro to pro level at the ESL EU cup. I think the snapshot of the players entering the ESL EU cup today, will become a snapshot of what the pro scene will look like in the future, especially with EU pros becoming more important in SC2 as the top Korean pros retire. isnt the EU cup dominated by 2 terrans winning like 75% of them? what use is it when 100 mid gm protoss apply for the top of the race that is underperforming hard
Heromarine and Clem as well as the top Zergs are old and will retire soon, then there will be only Protoss left
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Only way this loses is if the shark snitches on ryung
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Just tuned in, first thing I see: Two barracks behind Rogue's nat. Great.
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United States33571 Posts
Rogue so hated that ppl will cheer for a proxy-2rax against him
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the winrate of 2rax this tournament has to be absolutely insane. I never see this strategy lose
(hopefully this helps secure this map for ryung :p)
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France12911 Posts
On February 27 2022 01:11 Waxangel wrote:
Rogue so hated that ppl will cheer for a proxy-2rax against him
Proxy 2 rax is the sexiest TvZ build though
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On February 27 2022 01:03 xelnaga_empire wrote:
The ESL EU Cup is dominated by Protoss entries, week after week.
If the liquipedia entry is to be trusted, the EU ESL Cups performance is:
Terran: 72
Heromarine: 40
Clem: 28
THE DOMINANCE OF THE PROTOSS RACE, WEEK AFTER WEEK: 23
Zerg: 16
Showtime: 14
Reynor: 12
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Northern Ireland26360 Posts
On February 27 2022 00:59 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 00:44 pandorasheep wrote:On February 27 2022 00:41 Nakajin wrote:On February 27 2022 00:38 pandorasheep wrote:
Woke up late af! Anyone have a tl;dr on how Heromarine managed to beat Zoun? Game one Zoun was almost dead but turn it around in the long run. Game 2 (or 3?) was a failed cannon-void rush. Game 3 (or 2) was on that map with the two main at the bottom, Zoun tryed to go for some kind of 2 base timmjg with a gold and quick blink, didn't work and he got run over. Game 4 was a tank push into gg Thanks! Do you think Zoun could have won? Could he beat HM? Yes Did he throw the series? No, he just didn't seem to have a good grasp on HM style and oppening. Or just bad luck.
I dunno if it’s a matter of what particular series I watch, or the long, long period without a patch shaking things up. Maybe maps too
It seems from the Protoss side that if you don’t pick your opponent’s style quickly, or make a mistake in early/mid-game, you just lose. And you look fragile doing it too.
If you pick the right style for your opponent, don’t make a major flub you can look unassailable.
I dunno, it seems to gradually have flipped where I’d have conceded P had the advantage slightly to maybe the opposite. I think this probably accounts for even more Protoss drop off, yeah vZ was always rough but PvT was a good hunting ground.
Form aside I still think Trap has over a long span had the mantle of best PvTer, and I’ve seen him run the gamut of playing like a god and taking out the Marus of the world, to losing to decent EU pros in meaningful games.
It’s Protoss in a nutshell really, there’s such an innate fragility in the race. Maru’s not losing TvZs against anyone outside of the elite, or Serral a ZvP, they can turn up, play solid and just win reliably.
For Zoun today it looked like he wasn’t super accustomed to HM/his style doesn’t match up particularly well with what HM was doing, this series at least
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On February 27 2022 01:10 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 01:08 Andi_Goldberger wrote:On February 27 2022 01:03 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 27 2022 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On February 27 2022 00:57 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 26 2022 22:13 parksonsc wrote:
The Korean protoss really dont know much about HM. If they did, they would have just defended and tried to go late game everytime, since HM's TvP late game is pretty much tier-b level. It's not just Heromarine's late game that is weak against Protoss, pretty much all the pro Terrans are weak against late game Protoss, if the Protoss player has a decent late game like Trap or Stats. We just saw that Maru can't really beat late game Protoss either when he lost to Zoun in the late game yesterday. IMO, it's just Zest that doesn't have a great PvsT late game because Zest has always relied on timing attacks. Cure won GSL Season 3 because he knew Zest wasn't good at PvsT late game, so Cure just defended Zest's all-ins. In the same GSL Season 3, Cure knew that Trap was unbeatable in PvsT late game so Cure did timing attacks on Trap to stop him from getting there. If you look at Protoss as a whole, Protoss have been winning a lot of Premier level tournaments from 2020 to 2022. Zest just won the last GSL Super Tournament. And Trap won 6 Premier level tournaments in the last 1.5 years, including TSL 7, Next S1, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 1, DH Last Chance 2021, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 2, 2020 GSL Super Tournament 2: Premier Tournaments. Also, from 2020 to 2022, Zest got 2nd place multiple times in Premier level tournaments, so he was in the position to win it. Finally, the top 50 EU GM was 68% Protoss when I checked about 2 months ago (I counted 34 Protoss in the top 50 EU GM). I think the % of Protoss in the top 50 EU GM has dropped since then, but it's still very high. EU ESL Cup week in and week out is dominated by Protoss entries. That would be very bad for the future pro scene if the makeup of the top 50 EU GM slanted even more Protoss. I was with you until you brought up GM ladder and ESL cups which don't matter at all They do though. Because with the Korea pro scene dying out when the existing top Korean pros retire, the future of SC2 pros are EU players. You can already see the shift occurring, with more and more EU pros dominating at the top. The ESL EU Cup is dominated by Protoss entries, week after week. So it's Protoss players that are getting that needed top tier practice between the semi-pro to pro level at the ESL EU cup. I think the snapshot of the players entering the ESL EU cup today, will become a snapshot of what the pro scene will look like in the future, especially with EU pros becoming more important in SC2 as the top Korean pros retire. isnt the EU cup dominated by 2 terrans winning like 75% of them? what use is it when 100 mid gm protoss apply for the top of the race that is underperforming hard Heromarine and Clem as well as the top Zergs are old and will retire soon,
source for clem gabe reynor elazer lambo and serral planning to retire?
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On February 27 2022 01:10 catplanetcatplanet wrote:
Only way this loses is if the shark snitches on ryung
LOL
1-1!
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All right, that's one win for Ryung but I still don't believe he can take the series.
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On February 27 2022 01:19 Andi_Goldberger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 01:10 Charoisaur wrote:On February 27 2022 01:08 Andi_Goldberger wrote:On February 27 2022 01:03 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 27 2022 00:59 Charoisaur wrote:On February 27 2022 00:57 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 26 2022 22:13 parksonsc wrote:
The Korean protoss really dont know much about HM. If they did, they would have just defended and tried to go late game everytime, since HM's TvP late game is pretty much tier-b level. It's not just Heromarine's late game that is weak against Protoss, pretty much all the pro Terrans are weak against late game Protoss, if the Protoss player has a decent late game like Trap or Stats. We just saw that Maru can't really beat late game Protoss either when he lost to Zoun in the late game yesterday. IMO, it's just Zest that doesn't have a great PvsT late game because Zest has always relied on timing attacks. Cure won GSL Season 3 because he knew Zest wasn't good at PvsT late game, so Cure just defended Zest's all-ins. In the same GSL Season 3, Cure knew that Trap was unbeatable in PvsT late game so Cure did timing attacks on Trap to stop him from getting there. If you look at Protoss as a whole, Protoss have been winning a lot of Premier level tournaments from 2020 to 2022. Zest just won the last GSL Super Tournament. And Trap won 6 Premier level tournaments in the last 1.5 years, including TSL 7, Next S1, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 1, DH Last Chance 2021, 2021 GSL Super Tournament 2, 2020 GSL Super Tournament 2: Premier Tournaments. Also, from 2020 to 2022, Zest got 2nd place multiple times in Premier level tournaments, so he was in the position to win it. Finally, the top 50 EU GM was 68% Protoss when I checked about 2 months ago (I counted 34 Protoss in the top 50 EU GM). I think the % of Protoss in the top 50 EU GM has dropped since then, but it's still very high. EU ESL Cup week in and week out is dominated by Protoss entries. That would be very bad for the future pro scene if the makeup of the top 50 EU GM slanted even more Protoss. I was with you until you brought up GM ladder and ESL cups which don't matter at all They do though. Because with the Korea pro scene dying out when the existing top Korean pros retire, the future of SC2 pros are EU players. You can already see the shift occurring, with more and more EU pros dominating at the top. The ESL EU Cup is dominated by Protoss entries, week after week. So it's Protoss players that are getting that needed top tier practice between the semi-pro to pro level at the ESL EU cup. I think the snapshot of the players entering the ESL EU cup today, will become a snapshot of what the pro scene will look like in the future, especially with EU pros becoming more important in SC2 as the top Korean pros retire. isnt the EU cup dominated by 2 terrans winning like 75% of them? what use is it when 100 mid gm protoss apply for the top of the race that is underperforming hard Heromarine and Clem as well as the top Zergs are old and will retire soon, source for clem gabe reynor elazer lambo and serral planning to retire?
their really old age
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EPT
