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On January 28 2022 01:29 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2022 21:19 Nakajin wrote:On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote:WE On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote:On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote:
Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again!
Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. Same can be said for Maru going offline abroad really, but Clem is playing well maybe he can make something happen. I wouldn't have him as a favorite either, his tvz and tvt are looking too shaky WESG is so undervalued it's ridiculous. It was the most important event to players besides Blizzcon.
WESG is hard to judge, it makes sense that it would mean the most to players because of prize pool but it typically had player pools worse than most HSCs. While there's no doubt the handful of top players who made it in gave it their 100% it's hard to take it super seriously because of the thin rosters.
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WESG was still 2000km away from Maru in a country with a different primary language. By this logic no Europeans have to deal with travel difficulties for offline IEM Katowice and the fact they've done so poorly there should be looked at very harshly.
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On January 28 2022 04:25 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 01:29 JJH777 wrote:On January 27 2022 21:19 Nakajin wrote:On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote:WE On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote:On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote:
Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again!
Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. Same can be said for Maru going offline abroad really, but Clem is playing well maybe he can make something happen. I wouldn't have him as a favorite either, his tvz and tvt are looking too shaky WESG is so undervalued it's ridiculous. It was the most important event to players besides Blizzcon. WESG is hard to judge, it makes sense that it would mean the most to players because of prize pool but it typically had player pools worse than most HSCs. While there's no doubt the handful of top players who made it in gave it their 100% it's hard to take it super seriously because of the thin rosters.
KR players still have to get through the qualifiers. It was really far harder for a Korean player to win a WESG than a Blizzcon.
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Northern Ireland26537 Posts
WESG is a bit like WCG used to be in BW, qualifying as a Korean is harder than actually winning the thing once you’re there
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On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote:On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote:On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote:
Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form.
As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei).
It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear  Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do?  If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately.
Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate?
I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments.
He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea?
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On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote:On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote:On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote:
Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form.
As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei).
It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea?
Yes, he failed to reach the finals twice by one map, that could be bad luck(and it wasn't).
However, Maru has had the longest career out of every sc2 player and he has been top tier if not outright dominant at least in three different periods in the history of Sc2 and he has not won ONE tournament for which he had to travel consistently far from home; isn't it weird for a player who is(and was) that good?
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On January 28 2022 05:15 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 04:25 dysenterymd wrote:On January 28 2022 01:29 JJH777 wrote:On January 27 2022 21:19 Nakajin wrote:On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote:WE On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote:On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote:
Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again!
Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. Same can be said for Maru going offline abroad really, but Clem is playing well maybe he can make something happen. I wouldn't have him as a favorite either, his tvz and tvt are looking too shaky WESG is so undervalued it's ridiculous. It was the most important event to players besides Blizzcon. WESG is hard to judge, it makes sense that it would mean the most to players because of prize pool but it typically had player pools worse than most HSCs. While there's no doubt the handful of top players who made it in gave it their 100% it's hard to take it super seriously because of the thin rosters. KR players still have to get through the qualifiers. It was really far harder for a Korean player to win a WESG than a Blizzcon.
I mean I'm sure a lot of people *cared* about it, but the reason its "undervalued" is because after the qualifiers the player depth was extremely low, especially for its prize pool. For better or for else, the SC2 community simply doesn't value qualifiers at nearly the same level as the actual tournament.
On January 28 2022 07:21 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote:On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote:On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote:
Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form.
As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei).
It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Yes, he failed to reach the finals twice by one map, that could be bad luck(and it wasn't). However, Maru has had the longest career out of every sc2 player and he has been top tier if not outright dominant at least in three different periods in the history of Sc2 and he has not won ONE tournament for which he had to travel consistently far from home; isn't it weird for a player who is(and was) that good?
I just think we are getting nit-picky at this point. I don't think it's necessarily legit to grossly distinguish WESG in China/ IEM Taipei from an event in Europe. In either case Maru would have had to leave his home and play in very unfamiliar conditions - that's just as true in China as it is in Katowice. Unless you are saying it's the *jet lag* that's the difference - but my understanding is players tend to come early to huge events and tend to be in decent playing condition come the main event.
Second, no, I don't think it's weird. First, given above, he won IEM Taipei and WESG. And he's performed very very well at many other international tournaments, almost making it to the finals at several other times.
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Canada8989 Posts
On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote:On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote:On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote:
Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form.
As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei).
It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea?
Gamescom 2013, Blizzcon 2015, 2018, 2019, Kato 2015-19, there has been a good number of middly to bad performances from him at foreign event.
Blizzcon 2013 was also a bit of a miss opportunity, maybe not a bad performance because JD was playing well, but MC into DuckDeok into JD to get to a world final was still a dream bracket.
Obviout he did well at WESG, but I'd say the big question mark is that there's no crowd at WESG (at least the one he won, I don't remember all of them) so presumably less media/event stuff with people speaking a forein language, there's also less travel time and little jet lag. And I mean obviously it's like a 3-4 players event, and he ended first, second and third at his three tries it's fairly on par with what one could expect.
At this point its pretty clear that the guy don't like to travel to event, he's been vocal about that, couple that with the fact that he never won anything outside of Asia while also being the best player we've ever seen in SC2 and it does seems like there's some correlation.
Or it's just chance and it's all bullshit
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On January 28 2022 08:03 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote:On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote:On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote:
Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form.
As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei).
It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Gamescom 2013, Blizzcon 2015, 2018, 2019, Kato 2015-19, there has been a good number of middly to bad performances from him at foreign event.
what are those, 8 tournaments? (Kato 16 was foreigner-only).
Since his last GSL win, he has lost 8 Code S in a row.
Yes it is statistically more than possible that this is just by chance and he doesn't perform worse than in korean tournaments, he isn't Flash, losing 8 tournaments in a row isn't out of the norm for him.
Don't get me wrong, him not having a WC title is a significant hole in his resumee but I just can't agree that he performs significantly worse in overseas tournaments.
His play there looks as strong as always(except at Kato 19), it just hasn't quite worked out with the title yet.
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Northern Ireland26537 Posts
He’s about equal to Flash in international LANs won, in SC2 right? Which is an odd factoid to think about
It’s no knock on Maru really, it’s only notable because he’s such a great player. He’s basically the reverse Taeja
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Well, as a Maru fanboy, but being a realist myself, I think NOT winning a WC title (offline or online) should not be used against Maru unless its within the GOAT debate, and when/if he win one, it would be used to elevate his status further. Just my view, but Maru with this one championship AND the eventual G5L would put him on near equal footing with Rogue and ahead of Serral/Dark in that GOAT debate.
Now to get crazy about what just happened, I could assume that Maru threw on purpose because he doesnt want to exhaust his TvP and especially his TvZ build in a Bo7 against Dark in the Grand Final. This is just like how he lost to Bunny in TSL 8 where he tried to drop the entire army into the opponent main, get wiped and eventually lost the game.
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On January 28 2022 08:03 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote:On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote:On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote:
Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form.
As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei).
It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Gamescom 2013, Blizzcon 2015, 2018, 2019, Kato 2015-19, there has been a good number of middly to bad performances from him at foreign event. Blizzcon 2013 was also a bit of a miss opportunity, maybe not a bad performance because JD was playing well, but MC into DuckDeok into JD to get to a world final was still a dream bracket. Obviout he did well at WESG, but I'd say the big question mark is that there's no crowd at WESG (at least the one he won, I don't remember all of them) so presumably less media/event stuff with people speaking a forein language, there's also less travel time and little jet lag. And I mean obviously it's like a 3-4 players event, and he ended first, second and third at his three tries it's fairly on par with what one could expect.
He wasn't at Katowice 2016 or 2017. In 2018/19/20/21 he made the ro4 3/4 times. How people can use making the semi finals of the most stacked tournament 3/4 in a row as a knock against Maru?. Considering no one else has managed that. Sure, Maru should have won at least two of them or so. He did choke in three ro4s. But he still got pretty far.
People need to remember Maru has played like 10 international events in his entire career. His percentage of reaching the ro4/finals and winning in them is probably similar or better as in korean events (he's won 8 korean tournaments out of easily 50+)
The amount of WeEG slander is ridiculous. It was an international event, with travel time and media present. One that the korean players Calling it a 3-4 player event is also pointless considering his actual run to victory is no worse than any number of championships. He still beat Reynor, Serral, and Dark in playoffs to win the cup.
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Northern Ireland26537 Posts
I’m not sure anyone is really slandering WESG, it’s just never caught the imagination as others have, partly due to being super top heavy talent wise.
Still a decent crown to take, especially when Serral and Reynor gave the foreign scene some S class talent to the bill
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Calling it a decent crown is slandering a tournament that pays $200k to first place. There is 0 reason besides bias to rate WESG below or even equal to anything besides Katowice, Blizzcon, and Code S. It is very far above anything else. And it's also closer to Blizzcon than most think. If you look at who a champion beat to win each Blizzcon vs each WESG it's not going to be that different most of the time. It's only below Code S/Katowice due to their superior formats.
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Northern Ireland26537 Posts
If the quality of the field is way higher in qualifiers than your main tournament you have a real format problem.
Although IMO a big part of why it is undervalued is merely
How it was presented to the Western foreign audience, which isn’t entirely fair in terms of judging prestige. It may be very highly regarded by the Koreans, I’ve just never really heard them speak of it either way.
It’s a pity as I’d really like one more Olympic style tournament to really nail it. A different kind of format, tapping in to national pride in a non-jingoistic way, Nation Wars was great.
WCG had a better format in BW where you had a kind of two-tier tournament where WCG Korea was treated as an actual tournament in and of itself, was obviously absolutely stacked and you got the bragging rights and opportunity to represent Korea in the main event.
If a lot of the impactful events are taking place in qualifiers that we don’t even see, it really dampens hype and ergo prestige.
Although looking purely rationally at it yeah it’s a tough tough tournament to win
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On January 28 2022 07:21 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote:On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote:On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote:
Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form.
As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei).
It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Yes, he failed to reach the finals twice by one map, that could be bad luck(and it wasn't). However, Maru has had the longest career out of every sc2 player and he has been top tier if not outright dominant at least in three different periods in the history of Sc2 and he has not won ONE tournament for which he had to travel consistently far from home; isn't it weird for a player who is(and was) that good?
Adding to this, Maru also hasn't won any tournament between 3PM and 7PM in my local time. Isnt it weird for a player who is(and was) that good?
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On January 28 2022 17:27 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 07:21 Xain0n wrote:On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote:On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote:On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote:
Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form.
As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei).
It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Yes, he failed to reach the finals twice by one map, that could be bad luck(and it wasn't). However, Maru has had the longest career out of every sc2 player and he has been top tier if not outright dominant at least in three different periods in the history of Sc2 and he has not won ONE tournament for which he had to travel consistently far from home; isn't it weird for a player who is(and was) that good? Adding to this, Maru also hasn't won any tournament between 3PM and 7PM in my local time. Isnt it weird for a player who is(and was) that good?
No because he plays in Code S in MY local time (3AM to 7AM), where he is the most dominant player that has ever been in the tournament.
So there! Mine counters out yours.
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France12911 Posts
On January 28 2022 17:27 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 07:21 Xain0n wrote:On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote:On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote:On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote:On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote:On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote:
Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form.
As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei).
It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Yes, he failed to reach the finals twice by one map, that could be bad luck(and it wasn't). However, Maru has had the longest career out of every sc2 player and he has been top tier if not outright dominant at least in three different periods in the history of Sc2 and he has not won ONE tournament for which he had to travel consistently far from home; isn't it weird for a player who is(and was) that good? Adding to this, Maru also hasn't won any tournament between 3PM and 7PM in my local time. Isnt it weird for a player who is(and was) that good?
Yeah it’s super weird, he MUST really prefer when his European fans are eating while watching him.
He is obviiiously weaker when it’s the afternoon in Europe, he did not win a tournament at that exact time.
I did not find Maru below his level of play outside of Korea, so this thing is pure imagination imo. The fact that he didn’t win is not super surprising either, even in 2018 he did not win everything in Korea (notably the super tournament, GSL vs The World).
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On January 28 2022 15:29 JJH777 wrote:
Calling it a decent crown is slandering a tournament that pays $200k to first place. There is 0 reason besides bias to rate WESG below or even equal to anything besides Katowice, Blizzcon, and Code S. It is very far above anything else. And it's also closer to Blizzcon than most think. If you look at who a champion beat to win each Blizzcon vs each WESG it's not going to be that different most of the time. It's only below Code S/Katowice due to their superior formats.
There's like a million reasons to rate WESG below many other tournaments. Why would people be biased? People love Maru.
There were exactly three Koreans at WESG. And this is at a time before foreigners were regularly putting up extremely competitive matches against Koreans.
To make the point even more: Look at WESG 2016. Do you really think that is a mammoth achievement for TY to beat, let's see, Maru,, and uh Neeb and Stephano? Comparable to a Blizzcon or Code S?
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France12911 Posts
On January 28 2022 22:37 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2022 15:29 JJH777 wrote:
Calling it a decent crown is slandering a tournament that pays $200k to first place. There is 0 reason besides bias to rate WESG below or even equal to anything besides Katowice, Blizzcon, and Code S. It is very far above anything else. And it's also closer to Blizzcon than most think. If you look at who a champion beat to win each Blizzcon vs each WESG it's not going to be that different most of the time. It's only below Code S/Katowice due to their superior formats. There's like a million reasons to rate WESG below many other tournaments. Why would people be biased? People love Maru. There were exactly three Koreans at WESG. And this is at a time before foreigners were regularly putting up extremely competitive matches against Koreans. To make the point even more: Look at WESG 2016. Do you really think that is a mammoth achievement for TY to beat, let's see, Maru,, and uh Neeb and Stephano? Comparable to a Blizzcon or Code S?
Neeb was the best foreigner by far in 2017 (when WESG 2016 was played), and MarineLord was in his LotV prime having 5-0d Korea in nation wars only a year before -> 3-0ing all three of them in all match-ups is a good performance from Maru.
Rogue 2017 BlizzCon run is indeed harder than TY’s WESG (without including qualifier) because he was a bit unlucky bracket wise, but if soO won instead it would have been a similar run in playoffs: Gumiho (relatively easy opponent, comparable to Mlord imo albeit slightly stronger), SpeCial (easier than Neeb) and Rogue (tough opponent in the finals, like TY vs Maru at WESG).
And afaik he didn’t say WESG was better than BlizzCon/Katowice/Code S; but that it was better than the other tournaments below those three, which seems like a reasonable take.
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EPT
