Super Tournament 3
Streams & Casters
Format
- Single-elimination bracket:
- Round of 16 are Bo5.
- Quarterfinals are Bo5.
- Semifinals are Bo5.
- Finals are Bo7.
Map Pool
Semi Finals
Results
CSS: FO-nTTaX
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Banner: GSL
Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51324 Posts
Super Tournament 3Streams & CastersFormat
Map Pool Semi FinalsResultsCSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
On January 27 2022 17:11 Ciaus_Dronu wrote: Maru with the 5000IQ mine placement. and then he even repaired the widow mines lol | ||
Durnuu
13270 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3396 Posts
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Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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Waxangel
United States32487 Posts
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tigera6
2904 Posts
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Durnuu
13270 Posts
On January 27 2022 17:25 Waxangel wrote: Zest is worst good player of all time, and also the best bad player of all time. He's winning Katowice. He's the reincarnation of Dear, except instead of being good then bad (or bad then good) in a series, he does it in a single game | ||
Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11524 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3396 Posts
On January 27 2022 17:25 Waxangel wrote: Zest is worst good player of all time, and also the best bad player of all time. He's winning Katowice. I concur. The reason why he's often missing from 'best of all time' discussions is that sometimes what he does makes so little sense you just can't treat him seriously. And then he just shows up out of nowhere and wrecks face like no other. | ||
Durnuu
13270 Posts
On January 27 2022 17:32 True_Spike wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 17:25 Waxangel wrote: Zest is worst good player of all time, and also the best bad player of all time. He's winning Katowice. I concur. The reason why he's often missing from 'best of all time' discussions is that sometimes what he does makes so little sense you just can't treat him seriously. And then he just shows up out of nowhere and wrecks face like no other. The reason he's missing is because he plays protoss, let's be real | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 17:33 Durnuu wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 17:32 True_Spike wrote: On January 27 2022 17:25 Waxangel wrote: Zest is worst good player of all time, and also the best bad player of all time. He's winning Katowice. I concur. The reason why he's often missing from 'best of all time' discussions is that sometimes what he does makes so little sense you just can't treat him seriously. And then he just shows up out of nowhere and wrecks face like no other. The reason he's missing is because he plays protoss, let's be real The reason he's missing is because in the last years he didn't win anything big while Rogue and Maru achieved some great things while others achieved great things before(Inno). IMO the most ignored player is MC. | ||
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
On January 27 2022 17:32 True_Spike wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 17:25 Waxangel wrote: Zest is worst good player of all time, and also the best bad player of all time. He's winning Katowice. I concur. The reason why he's often missing from 'best of all time' discussions is that sometimes what he does makes so little sense you just can't treat him seriously. And then he just shows up out of nowhere and wrecks face like no other. He's missing from the discussion because he has a much emptier trophy case than Maru / Rogue / Inno / MVP / Voldemort etc | ||
Waxangel
United States32487 Posts
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darklycid
3132 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2306 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
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Waxangel
United States32487 Posts
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darklycid
3132 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11524 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom474 Posts
I S B E S T | ||
Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3396 Posts
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Waxangel
United States32487 Posts
On January 27 2022 17:57 Argonauta wrote: it was a valiant final try, now I really hope Zoun wins because otherwise Dark is going to demolish Zest. how do u know he's not gonna a-move 3 carriers, 12 chargelots, and 3 archons and win? | ||
darklycid
3132 Posts
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Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 17:58 darklycid wrote: Still think Maru adapted kinda poorly vs zests style of low tech mass units. Maru being stubborn, in more shocking news we will find out that dogs bark. | ||
RKC
2847 Posts
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tigera6
2904 Posts
Also, Maru playing the same opening for 4 straight games doesnt help neither, like cant he just mixed in Marauder or 3 racks opening? And the best style playing against mass gateway is turtle like Cure did, because Zest isnt the type of player that will explode his expansion like crazy, he like to build up the army and fight into the Terran defense (and then lost). | ||
Schelim
Austria11524 Posts
On January 27 2022 17:59 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 17:58 darklycid wrote: Still think Maru adapted kinda poorly vs zests style of low tech mass units. Maru being stubborn, in more shocking news we will find out that dogs bark. nobody's perfect. if Maru wasn't stubborn, he'd be very close to perfection. | ||
Poopi
France12466 Posts
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Durnuu
13270 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland20713 Posts
Was it news to Maru that Zest is gatewayman or something? My senile grandmother who doesn’t even know what Starcraft is is aware of that Weird series | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:02 Poopi wrote: Kinda disappointing, hopefully Maru performs better at Katowice If Kato is truly offline I honestly doubt that. He may not perform like some other players, TRAP, but he won't win it. My bets are on a Zerg. | ||
Ziggy
South Korea2103 Posts
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Durnuu
13270 Posts
Why isn't there a cannon in the middle of the pylons | ||
Ciaus_Dronu
South Africa1848 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2701 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:10 Durnuu wrote: The fuck are you doing Zoun Why isn't there a cannon in the middle of the pylons He cancelled it. I assume on accident. | ||
Durnuu
13270 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:10 Durnuu wrote: The fuck are you doing Zoun Why isn't there a cannon in the middle of the pylons Ok I went back through the VOD and it seems he canceled it, probably accidently if I had to guess | ||
MJG
United Kingdom474 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:11 Durnuu wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 18:10 Durnuu wrote: The fuck are you doing Zoun Why isn't there a cannon in the middle of the pylons Ok I went back through the VOD and it seems he canceled it, probably accidently if I had to guess I thought so too, Artosis said it was a pylon lol | ||
Durnuu
13270 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11524 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom474 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2701 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom474 Posts
That was kinda sad to see, to be honest. | ||
Acrofales
Spain17185 Posts
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Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:20 DBooN wrote: Lets hope he doesnt cancel the Zealots. lmao | ||
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:19 MJG wrote: Zoun has no interest in playing standard huh? He's clearly scared shitless | ||
Durnuu
13270 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:20 DBooN wrote: Lets hope he doesnt cancel the Zealots. Cancelled a potential win by using that build tbh | ||
Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2306 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom474 Posts
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darklycid
3132 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom474 Posts
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Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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Schelim
Austria11524 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
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tigera6
2904 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:36 Schelim wrote: Zoun outperforming Maru in ST That has been the case since 2021 | ||
Durnuu
13270 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:37 deacon.frost wrote: I am still wondering why Maru didn't use any other build. He usually at least tries something else in a BO5. Eh, maybe he just had a bad day of stubborness. Maybe he played a BO7 against Reynor yesterday and we don't know about it | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:40 Durnuu wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 18:37 deacon.frost wrote: I am still wondering why Maru didn't use any other build. He usually at least tries something else in a BO5. Eh, maybe he just had a bad day of stubborness. Maybe he played a BO7 against Reynor yesterday and we don't know about it IMO he just had a bad day, we all have them, some us have them more than good days xD | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
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tigera6
2904 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:37 deacon.frost wrote: I am still wondering why Maru didn't use any other build. He usually at least tries something else in a BO5. Eh, maybe he just had a bad day of stubborness. Maru has been quite stubborn in TvP at times and he lost several series because of that, like you can close your eyes and expect him to throw down fake proxy Racks into Mine Drop into 2 base push opening 90% of the time. Like he doesnt care and just try to get it over with or something. | ||
Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:49 tigera6 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 18:37 deacon.frost wrote: I am still wondering why Maru didn't use any other build. He usually at least tries something else in a BO5. Eh, maybe he just had a bad day of stubborness. Maru has been quite stubborn in TvP at times and he lost several series because of that, like you can close your eyes and expect him to throw down fake proxy Racks into Mine Drop into 2 base push opening 90% of the time. Like he doesnt care and just try to get it over with or something. I know that, but still, this just looks like me waking up with a headache and doing the bare minimum to pass a working day at work. | ||
darklycid
3132 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:52 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 18:49 tigera6 wrote: On January 27 2022 18:37 deacon.frost wrote: I am still wondering why Maru didn't use any other build. He usually at least tries something else in a BO5. Eh, maybe he just had a bad day of stubborness. Maru has been quite stubborn in TvP at times and he lost several series because of that, like you can close your eyes and expect him to throw down fake proxy Racks into Mine Drop into 2 base push opening 90% of the time. Like he doesnt care and just try to get it over with or something. I know that, but still, this just looks like me waking up with a headache and doing the bare minimum to pass a working day at work. Usually he is much better at identifying when to abort his 2 base push tho i think, this time he commited way too hard and thus lost the game. | ||
RKC
2847 Posts
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tigera6
2904 Posts
On January 27 2022 18:58 darklycid wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 18:52 deacon.frost wrote: On January 27 2022 18:49 tigera6 wrote: On January 27 2022 18:37 deacon.frost wrote: I am still wondering why Maru didn't use any other build. He usually at least tries something else in a BO5. Eh, maybe he just had a bad day of stubborness. Maru has been quite stubborn in TvP at times and he lost several series because of that, like you can close your eyes and expect him to throw down fake proxy Racks into Mine Drop into 2 base push opening 90% of the time. Like he doesnt care and just try to get it over with or something. I know that, but still, this just looks like me waking up with a headache and doing the bare minimum to pass a working day at work. Usually he is much better at identifying when to abort his 2 base push tho i think, this time he commited way too hard and thus lost the game. Yeah, maybe Maru should watch other Terrans on how to play TvP, not TvZ like he said. | ||
Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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Durnuu
13270 Posts
On January 27 2022 19:05 Zambrah wrote: I dunno, when was the last time a PvZ final was any good? Doubly so for a GSL anything A long time ago. Part of the issue is that we know the winner before the games are even played | ||
Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 19:07 Durnuu wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 19:05 Zambrah wrote: I dunno, when was the last time a PvZ final was any good? Doubly so for a GSL anything A long time ago. Part of the issue is that we know the winner before the games are even played Zest can surprise us and play like he played Reynor at IEM the last yea... oh, wait, no, the flashbacks are back, my memory fooled me!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA | ||
Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
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Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3396 Posts
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nojok
France15837 Posts
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Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
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darklycid
3132 Posts
Even tho PvZ is still pretty shit | ||
Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
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Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2306 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 19:56 swarminfestor wrote: I am excited to know that Zest is leading 2-1. Feel like Zest is becoming shield of aiurs at the moment defensing all type of queen walk aggression attack. Zest is more like the Joker of Aiur. | ||
Durnuu
13270 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
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Die4Ever
United States17430 Posts
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darklycid
3132 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2701 Posts
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darklycid
3132 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15615 Posts
On January 27 2022 20:26 [PkF] Wire wrote: That mass blink comp of Zest doesn't look scary anymore thought so to but he just powered through. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8764 Posts
Zest is best! | ||
[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2306 Posts
On January 27 2022 20:29 Nakajin wrote: Haha I almost spit out my coffee when I saw Zest warp in 17 stalker at once Zest is best! Zest's game sense really work so well so far despite the lack of mechanic. | ||
Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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Ziggy
South Korea2103 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2701 Posts
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darklycid
3132 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States15713 Posts
Probably not, but it's nice to think that it could be possible. | ||
DBooN
Germany2701 Posts
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darklycid
3132 Posts
On January 27 2022 20:45 Vindicare605 wrote: If Zest pulls this off, will he single handedly silence months and months of Protoss whining? Probably not, but it's nice to think that it could be possible. It's super tournament if protoss doesn't win it you know it's bad | ||
t5Fab
177 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
Ed> Not recalling that army cost Zest the game? | ||
MJG
United Kingdom474 Posts
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t5Fab
177 Posts
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Poopi
France12466 Posts
On January 27 2022 20:45 Vindicare605 wrote: If Zest pulls this off, will he single handedly silence months and months of Protoss whining? Probably not, but it's nice to think that it could be possible. They only want Code S and WC (Zest should have won vs Cure anyways), but when they will get Code S they will only want WC. When they will have WC they will want as many in a row as zerg Hopefully Zest wins, still bummed Maru lost, will have to check the vods | ||
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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darklycid
3132 Posts
On January 27 2022 20:59 Poopi wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 20:45 Vindicare605 wrote: If Zest pulls this off, will he single handedly silence months and months of Protoss whining? Probably not, but it's nice to think that it could be possible. They only want Code S and WC (Zest should have won vs Cure anyways), but when they will get Code S they will only want WC. When they will have WC they will want as many in a row as zerg Hopefully Zest wins, still bummed Maru lost, will have to check the vods Nice, protoss gets a few tournaments with none in the ro4 and some even without ro8 but yeah ofc we're just whining | ||
TheCheapSkate
Slovenia315 Posts
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RKC
2847 Posts
His engagement in the last game was a mistake. But I think he struck when Dark harassed with ultras. Maybe he thought he could catch Dark in some tech switch. Unfortunately, the ultra hit squad was merely a feint, and Dark was well prepared for a frontal attack back home. | ||
darklycid
3132 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2701 Posts
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DBooN
Germany2701 Posts
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darklycid
3132 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2306 Posts
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True_Spike
Poland3396 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11352 Posts
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Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:07 DBooN wrote: Does dark have so much CONTROL he doesn't need drones? no | ||
MJG
United Kingdom474 Posts
GG! | ||
t5Fab
177 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8764 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland20713 Posts
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Zambrah
United States6831 Posts
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Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 20:59 Poopi wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 20:45 Vindicare605 wrote: If Zest pulls this off, will he single handedly silence months and months of Protoss whining? Probably not, but it's nice to think that it could be possible. They only want Code S and WC (Zest should have won vs Cure anyways), but when they will get Code S they will only want WC. When they will have WC they will want as many in a row as zerg Hopefully Zest wins, still bummed Maru lost, will have to check the vods To be fair it has been ages since other race than Zerg won WC and Protoss won the Code S. And considering we actually have good Protosses in Korea it would be nice to see them the highest tournaments either | ||
Spinoza
666 Posts
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RKC
2847 Posts
Just a shame that Bunny denied him a hattrick against Rogue | ||
Mozdk
Denmark6989 Posts
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darklycid
3132 Posts
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Poopi
France12466 Posts
Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice | ||
swarminfestor
Malaysia2306 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:09 Spinoza wrote: Elegant tailored build to kill Dark on the 7th map. Gorgeous. Yeah, beating Dark or Zerg player in that map feels so good. | ||
Acrofales
Spain17185 Posts
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Gilgamesh_
22 Posts
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swarminfestor
Malaysia2306 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again! Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, and Dark. Clem or Cure follows the rest. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again! Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. (edit> internationally speaking, he can win WCS Europe but cannot beat the same players outside of the WCS) | ||
swarminfestor
Malaysia2306 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote: On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again! Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. I just edited my comment. I put Cure and Clem in the same league. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8764 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote: On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again! Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. Same can be said for Maru going offline abroad really, but Clem is playing well maybe he can make something happen. I wouldn't have him as a favorite either, his tvz and tvt are looking too shaky | ||
[PkF] Wire
France24187 Posts
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tigera6
2904 Posts
As for IEM, pretty much Maru is the lead Terran favorite, and Zest is the lead Protoss favorite, with the 2nd best of each race is lagging behind quite far. Then we have FOUR Zerg Champion looking to repeat. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15713 Posts
Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedigree. One of few current Protoss players that does. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:18 swarminfestor wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote: On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote: On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again! Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. I just edited my comment. I put Cure and Clem in the same league. Ah, OK, makes sense On January 27 2022 21:19 Nakajin wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote: On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote: On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again! Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. Same can be said for Maru going offline abroad really, but Clem is playing well maybe he can make something happen. I wouldn't have him as a favorite either, his tvz and tvt are looking too shaky And if you follow my posts you'll see that I doubt all the claims that Maru will win it For Maru at least online works, but Clem is having his issues even online. It will be interesting, but I don't see neither of them to be favorites | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedegree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedegree. One of few current Protoss players that does. He won 7 premiers, the most of 2021 IIRC. Too lazy to check Just sayin. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15713 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:31 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedegree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedegree. One of few current Protoss players that does. He won 7 premiers, the most of 2021 IIRC. Too lazy to check Just sayin. Even 7 (if that's the number) seems small compared to the amount of time Trap was unanimously considered the best Protoss in the world. I'd be VERY surprised if Trap manages to keep coming back years later the way someone like Zest or even sOs can. He had one solid run and that's gonna be all she wrote about him. Calling it now. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:35 Vindicare605 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:31 deacon.frost wrote: On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedegree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedegree. One of few current Protoss players that does. He won 7 premiers, the most of 2021 IIRC. Too lazy to check Just sayin. Even 7 (if that's the number) seems small compared to the amount of time Trap was unanimously considered the best Protoss in the world. I'd be VERY surprised if Trap manages to keep coming back years later the way someone like Zest or even sOs can. He had one solid run and that's gonna be all she wrote about him. Calling it now. I'm not disproving the championship stuff though. He never delivered in the big tournaments EveRyBoDY wAnTS!!! (Code S, WC) | ||
Vindicare605
United States15713 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:37 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:35 Vindicare605 wrote: On January 27 2022 21:31 deacon.frost wrote: On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedegree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedegree. One of few current Protoss players that does. He won 7 premiers, the most of 2021 IIRC. Too lazy to check Just sayin. Even 7 (if that's the number) seems small compared to the amount of time Trap was unanimously considered the best Protoss in the world. I'd be VERY surprised if Trap manages to keep coming back years later the way someone like Zest or even sOs can. He had one solid run and that's gonna be all she wrote about him. Calling it now. I'm not disproving the championship stuff though. He never delivered in the big tournaments EveRyBoDY wAnTS!!! (Code S, WC) Which obviously brings up the old and tired argument of what TL considers to be a premier tournament. Something like Katowice and Code S deserve their own category. It's been the case for a long time. You COULD make the case that something like GSL Super Tournaments belong in that category too, but I wouldn't. The players don't value them as highly, Afreeca doesn't either. Katowice championships, Blizzcons and Code S all deserve their own special category of ultra premier or something similar that someone more clever with marketing can come up with. | ||
Poopi
France12466 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedigree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedigree. One of few current Protoss players that does. Zest won as much money as Trap in 2021, he is the Katowice finalist two times in a row and should have won his Code S over Cure. He was the best protoss of 2021 so this is not super surprising that he can win this ST | ||
Shathe
Hungary422 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On the other hand, what are those ridicolous attacks to Trap? Trap became a top player in 2019 and gradually improved until he started his winning streak in 2021; after his loss to Dark in Code S, Trap has been slumping for a while. This ST is Zest's biggest success in six years but he has looked like the best Protoss for a while already, are you totally oblivious to his Code S run last season? Zest winning should not surprise anyone. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15713 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:52 Poopi wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedigree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedigree. One of few current Protoss players that does. Zest won as much money as Trap in 2021, he is the Katowice finalist two times in a row and should have won his Code S over Cure. He was the best protoss of 2021 so this is not super surprising that he can win this ST Super surprising is not what I said. I already said I consider Zest to be one of the few Protoss with champion pedigree so of course I'm never gonna count him out as a non-contender. But expecting THIS result.... come on, I never would have put my money on this happening and I'd be surprised if anyone would have unless they just like losing money, If anything is a surprise it's how Zest continues to so effectively keep coming back despite never showing the kind of dominance other champions have. Maybe it's because he's so quiet and mature, maybe it's because of something else, I don't know. But Zest has somehow quietly managed to be one of the most consistently dominant players in SC2's history. It's impressive, it really is. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15615 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:42 Vindicare605 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:37 deacon.frost wrote: On January 27 2022 21:35 Vindicare605 wrote: On January 27 2022 21:31 deacon.frost wrote: On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedegree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedegree. One of few current Protoss players that does. He won 7 premiers, the most of 2021 IIRC. Too lazy to check Just sayin. Even 7 (if that's the number) seems small compared to the amount of time Trap was unanimously considered the best Protoss in the world. I'd be VERY surprised if Trap manages to keep coming back years later the way someone like Zest or even sOs can. He had one solid run and that's gonna be all she wrote about him. Calling it now. I'm not disproving the championship stuff though. He never delivered in the big tournaments EveRyBoDY wAnTS!!! (Code S, WC) Which obviously brings up the old and tired argument of what TL considers to be a premier tournament. Something like Katowice and Code S deserve their own category. It's been the case for a long time. You COULD make the case that something like GSL Super Tournaments belong in that category too, but I wouldn't. The players don't value them as highly, Afreeca doesn't either. Katowice championships, Blizzcons and Code S all deserve their own special category of ultra premier or something similar that someone more clever with marketing can come up with. Yeah I agree, most people call those the 'tier 1' tournaments. | ||
Poopi
France12466 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:56 Vindicare605 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:52 Poopi wrote: On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedigree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedigree. One of few current Protoss players that does. Zest won as much money as Trap in 2021, he is the Katowice finalist two times in a row and should have won his Code S over Cure. He was the best protoss of 2021 so this is not super surprising that he can win this ST Super surprising is not what I said. I already said I consider Zest to be one of the few Protoss with champion pedigree so of course I'm never gonna count him out as a non-contender. But expecting THIS result.... come on, I never would have put my money on this happening and I'd be surprised if anyone would have unless they just like losing money, If anything is a surprise it's how Zest continues to so effectively keep coming back despite never showing the kind of dominance other champions have. Maybe it's because he's so quiet and mature, maybe it's because of something else, I don't know. But Zest has somehow quietly managed to be one of the most consistently dominant players in SC2's history. It's impressive, it really is. Well Zest beating both Classic and Bunny is expected, and maybe Rogue would have beaten him but Zest already beat him in bo7 code S, so bo5 super tournament is not that big of a stretch. The only surprising result is him beating Maru convincingly but TvP is so volatile that even Cure lost 0-3 to Zoun so it’s actually not a surprise either. Dark was the favorite on his side of the bracket, but afaik his ZvP is not necessarily better than Rogue’s? If Serral was in place of Dark I would never bet on Zest for this ST, but with things how they were the favorites were Maru, Rogue, Zest, Dark imo | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15615 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedigree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. a weird thing to say as a response to Zest winning GSL Super Tournament considering Trap won this tournament 3 times in a row before. | ||
Pandain
United States12860 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States15713 Posts
On January 27 2022 23:00 Pandain wrote: What's the next big tournament? Katowice? I believe so. The next season of Code S doesnt start until after Katowice.... I think. | ||
tigera6
2904 Posts
On January 27 2022 22:01 Poopi wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:56 Vindicare605 wrote: On January 27 2022 21:52 Poopi wrote: On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedigree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedigree. One of few current Protoss players that does. Zest won as much money as Trap in 2021, he is the Katowice finalist two times in a row and should have won his Code S over Cure. He was the best protoss of 2021 so this is not super surprising that he can win this ST Super surprising is not what I said. I already said I consider Zest to be one of the few Protoss with champion pedigree so of course I'm never gonna count him out as a non-contender. But expecting THIS result.... come on, I never would have put my money on this happening and I'd be surprised if anyone would have unless they just like losing money, If anything is a surprise it's how Zest continues to so effectively keep coming back despite never showing the kind of dominance other champions have. Maybe it's because he's so quiet and mature, maybe it's because of something else, I don't know. But Zest has somehow quietly managed to be one of the most consistently dominant players in SC2's history. It's impressive, it really is. Well Zest beating both Classic and Bunny is expected, and maybe Rogue would have beaten him but Zest already beat him in bo7 code S, so bo5 super tournament is not that big of a stretch. The only surprising result is him beating Maru convincingly but TvP is so volatile that even Cure lost 0-3 to Zoun so it’s actually not a surprise either. Dark was the favorite on his side of the bracket, but afaik his ZvP is not necessarily better than Rogue’s? If Serral was in place of Dark I would never bet on Zest for this ST, but with things how they were the favorites were Maru, Rogue, Zest, Dark imo There are 2 guys currently that I think Zest are considered as "underdog" against in a Bo5+ series, and they are Maru and Serral, Zest has at least a 50/50 chance against pretty much everybody else with his sharp build order and great game sense. | ||
Drfilip
Sweden590 Posts
On January 27 2022 23:53 tigera6 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 22:01 Poopi wrote: On January 27 2022 21:56 Vindicare605 wrote: On January 27 2022 21:52 Poopi wrote: On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedigree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedigree. One of few current Protoss players that does. Zest won as much money as Trap in 2021, he is the Katowice finalist two times in a row and should have won his Code S over Cure. He was the best protoss of 2021 so this is not super surprising that he can win this ST Super surprising is not what I said. I already said I consider Zest to be one of the few Protoss with champion pedigree so of course I'm never gonna count him out as a non-contender. But expecting THIS result.... come on, I never would have put my money on this happening and I'd be surprised if anyone would have unless they just like losing money, If anything is a surprise it's how Zest continues to so effectively keep coming back despite never showing the kind of dominance other champions have. Maybe it's because he's so quiet and mature, maybe it's because of something else, I don't know. But Zest has somehow quietly managed to be one of the most consistently dominant players in SC2's history. It's impressive, it really is. Well Zest beating both Classic and Bunny is expected, and maybe Rogue would have beaten him but Zest already beat him in bo7 code S, so bo5 super tournament is not that big of a stretch. The only surprising result is him beating Maru convincingly but TvP is so volatile that even Cure lost 0-3 to Zoun so it’s actually not a surprise either. Dark was the favorite on his side of the bracket, but afaik his ZvP is not necessarily better than Rogue’s? If Serral was in place of Dark I would never bet on Zest for this ST, but with things how they were the favorites were Maru, Rogue, Zest, Dark imo There are 2 guys currently that I think Zest are considered as "underdog" against in a Bo5+ series, and they are Maru and Serral, Zest has at least a 50/50 chance against pretty much everybody else with his sharp build order and great game sense. I have a different opinion. Zest is the underdog vs Dark, Rogue, Trap, Cure, herO, Clem, and Reynor too. Zest's play style does not make me believe in his chances to win in the long run. He is kind of like Bunny. The secret builds are important and match deciding. The supply of hidden strategies is limited. Great macro, micro, and decision making can only take you so far when you are making big mistakes in every other series. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15615 Posts
On January 28 2022 00:30 Drfilip wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 23:53 tigera6 wrote: On January 27 2022 22:01 Poopi wrote: On January 27 2022 21:56 Vindicare605 wrote: On January 27 2022 21:52 Poopi wrote: On January 27 2022 21:29 Vindicare605 wrote: You know it feels kind of bad to beat up on Trap when he didn't do well in this tournament, but this is what I mean about the championship pedigree that Zest has that Trap doesn't. Trap was on top of the world for how long and in that time how many tournaments did he win? Like 2? And one of them was relatively minor? Zest hasn't been relevant in at least a year and he just comes out of nowhere and bullshits his way to a tournament win, stepping over both Maru and Dark in some of their most dominant forms in the process. The guy knows how to be a champion, he just knows how to get it done. Yea I know he's been dominating the weeklies but this is different. Like seriously, who before this tournament started called it that Zest was gonna do what he did? He has actual champion pedigree. One of few current Protoss players that does. Zest won as much money as Trap in 2021, he is the Katowice finalist two times in a row and should have won his Code S over Cure. He was the best protoss of 2021 so this is not super surprising that he can win this ST Super surprising is not what I said. I already said I consider Zest to be one of the few Protoss with champion pedigree so of course I'm never gonna count him out as a non-contender. But expecting THIS result.... come on, I never would have put my money on this happening and I'd be surprised if anyone would have unless they just like losing money, If anything is a surprise it's how Zest continues to so effectively keep coming back despite never showing the kind of dominance other champions have. Maybe it's because he's so quiet and mature, maybe it's because of something else, I don't know. But Zest has somehow quietly managed to be one of the most consistently dominant players in SC2's history. It's impressive, it really is. Well Zest beating both Classic and Bunny is expected, and maybe Rogue would have beaten him but Zest already beat him in bo7 code S, so bo5 super tournament is not that big of a stretch. The only surprising result is him beating Maru convincingly but TvP is so volatile that even Cure lost 0-3 to Zoun so it’s actually not a surprise either. Dark was the favorite on his side of the bracket, but afaik his ZvP is not necessarily better than Rogue’s? If Serral was in place of Dark I would never bet on Zest for this ST, but with things how they were the favorites were Maru, Rogue, Zest, Dark imo There are 2 guys currently that I think Zest are considered as "underdog" against in a Bo5+ series, and they are Maru and Serral, Zest has at least a 50/50 chance against pretty much everybody else with his sharp build order and great game sense. I have a different opinion. Zest is the underdog vs Dark, Rogue, Trap, Cure, herO, Clem, and Reynor too. Zest's play style does not make me believe in his chances to win in the long run. He is kind of like Bunny. The secret builds are important and match deciding. The supply of hidden strategies is limited. Great macro, micro, and decision making can only take you so far when you are making big mistakes in every other series. Strong disagree here. the Zergs are debatable but Rogue isn't that scary outside of bo7 in ZvP and if he can beat Dark convincingly I think he should do well against Reynor too. And in PvP he is the most solid player imo | ||
JJH777
United States4280 Posts
On January 27 2022 21:19 Nakajin wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote: On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote: On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again! Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. Same can be said for Maru going offline abroad really, but Clem is playing well maybe he can make something happen. I wouldn't have him as a favorite either, his tvz and tvt are looking too shaky WESG is so undervalued it's ridiculous. It was the most important event to players besides Blizzcon. | ||
tigera6
2904 Posts
On January 28 2022 01:29 JJH777 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:19 Nakajin wrote: On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote: On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote: On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again! Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. Same can be said for Maru going offline abroad really, but Clem is playing well maybe he can make something happen. I wouldn't have him as a favorite either, his tvz and tvt are looking too shaky WESG is so undervalued it's ridiculous. It was the most important event to players besides Blizzcon. Also, other than that sad year in 2019 where he got knocked out in the group stage, Maru did well in the other 2 IEM offline, losing to Rogue in the Ro4. So I dont think he should have any issue with the coming tournament even if its offline, aka no excuse if he blew it like Trap did last year. The only "excuse" I can see for Maru this time around is the Zerg favored map pool and he end up somehow playing the "dead lineup" of Zerg in the bracket stage. | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. | ||
Lokol18
51 Posts
On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then | ||
aringadingding
468 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15615 Posts
On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. | ||
Moonerz
United States408 Posts
Zest is pretty much the last KT player still going in SC2 with Ty and Stats gone. | ||
Poopi
France12466 Posts
On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20713 Posts
Zest’s pattern has not been consistent excellence for years now, it’s underwhelming results into miracle runs and I wonder if he can buck that trend. Trap seemed to wilt with being one of the favourites for last Kato and maybe he can mentally treat it as a free hit and hit his best form given his recent slump has lowered expectations. | ||
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5811 Posts
And some of the games were exciting, too! Absolutely ecstatic in this corner, I know it's Super Tournament and those don't correlate to Protoss performance in anything else, but I really feel optimistic right now. Good times are coming. Let's go!!!! | ||
dysenterymd
1051 Posts
On January 28 2022 01:29 JJH777 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 27 2022 21:19 Nakajin wrote: On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote:WE On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote: On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again! Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. Same can be said for Maru going offline abroad really, but Clem is playing well maybe he can make something happen. I wouldn't have him as a favorite either, his tvz and tvt are looking too shaky WESG is so undervalued it's ridiculous. It was the most important event to players besides Blizzcon. WESG is hard to judge, it makes sense that it would mean the most to players because of prize pool but it typically had player pools worse than most HSCs. While there's no doubt the handful of top players who made it in gave it their 100% it's hard to take it super seriously because of the thin rosters. | ||
JJH777
United States4280 Posts
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JJH777
United States4280 Posts
On January 28 2022 04:25 dysenterymd wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 01:29 JJH777 wrote: On January 27 2022 21:19 Nakajin wrote: On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote:WE On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote: On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again! Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. Same can be said for Maru going offline abroad really, but Clem is playing well maybe he can make something happen. I wouldn't have him as a favorite either, his tvz and tvt are looking too shaky WESG is so undervalued it's ridiculous. It was the most important event to players besides Blizzcon. WESG is hard to judge, it makes sense that it would mean the most to players because of prize pool but it typically had player pools worse than most HSCs. While there's no doubt the handful of top players who made it in gave it their 100% it's hard to take it super seriously because of the thin rosters. KR players still have to get through the qualifiers. It was really far harder for a Korean player to win a WESG than a Blizzcon. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20713 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15615 Posts
On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote: On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? | ||
Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote: On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Yes, he failed to reach the finals twice by one map, that could be bad luck(and it wasn't). However, Maru has had the longest career out of every sc2 player and he has been top tier if not outright dominant at least in three different periods in the history of Sc2 and he has not won ONE tournament for which he had to travel consistently far from home; isn't it weird for a player who is(and was) that good? | ||
Pandain
United States12860 Posts
On January 28 2022 05:15 JJH777 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 04:25 dysenterymd wrote: On January 28 2022 01:29 JJH777 wrote: On January 27 2022 21:19 Nakajin wrote: On January 27 2022 21:17 deacon.frost wrote:WE On January 27 2022 21:15 swarminfestor wrote: On January 27 2022 21:13 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Zest, Goat protoss at work once again! Practice paid off, time to perform at Katowice Zest is highly favorite to win Katowice besides Rogue, Maru, Serral, Dark and Clem or Cure. Trap and Reynor, depend if they can work hard to improve their poor recent performances. Clem being a favorite for Kato? Why? I see him being a favorite for everything he enters despite never winning anything big. Same can be said for Maru going offline abroad really, but Clem is playing well maybe he can make something happen. I wouldn't have him as a favorite either, his tvz and tvt are looking too shaky WESG is so undervalued it's ridiculous. It was the most important event to players besides Blizzcon. WESG is hard to judge, it makes sense that it would mean the most to players because of prize pool but it typically had player pools worse than most HSCs. While there's no doubt the handful of top players who made it in gave it their 100% it's hard to take it super seriously because of the thin rosters. KR players still have to get through the qualifiers. It was really far harder for a Korean player to win a WESG than a Blizzcon. I mean I'm sure a lot of people *cared* about it, but the reason its "undervalued" is because after the qualifiers the player depth was extremely low, especially for its prize pool. For better or for else, the SC2 community simply doesn't value qualifiers at nearly the same level as the actual tournament. On January 28 2022 07:21 Xain0n wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote: On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Yes, he failed to reach the finals twice by one map, that could be bad luck(and it wasn't). However, Maru has had the longest career out of every sc2 player and he has been top tier if not outright dominant at least in three different periods in the history of Sc2 and he has not won ONE tournament for which he had to travel consistently far from home; isn't it weird for a player who is(and was) that good? I just think we are getting nit-picky at this point. I don't think it's necessarily legit to grossly distinguish WESG in China/ IEM Taipei from an event in Europe. In either case Maru would have had to leave his home and play in very unfamiliar conditions - that's just as true in China as it is in Katowice. Unless you are saying it's the *jet lag* that's the difference - but my understanding is players tend to come early to huge events and tend to be in decent playing condition come the main event. Second, no, I don't think it's weird. First, given above, he won IEM Taipei and WESG. And he's performed very very well at many other international tournaments, almost making it to the finals at several other times. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8764 Posts
On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote: On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Gamescom 2013, Blizzcon 2015, 2018, 2019, Kato 2015-19, there has been a good number of middly to bad performances from him at foreign event. Blizzcon 2013 was also a bit of a miss opportunity, maybe not a bad performance because JD was playing well, but MC into DuckDeok into JD to get to a world final was still a dream bracket. Obviout he did well at WESG, but I'd say the big question mark is that there's no crowd at WESG (at least the one he won, I don't remember all of them) so presumably less media/event stuff with people speaking a forein language, there's also less travel time and little jet lag. And I mean obviously it's like a 3-4 players event, and he ended first, second and third at his three tries it's fairly on par with what one could expect. At this point its pretty clear that the guy don't like to travel to event, he's been vocal about that, couple that with the fact that he never won anything outside of Asia while also being the best player we've ever seen in SC2 and it does seems like there's some correlation. Or it's just chance and it's all bullshit | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15615 Posts
On January 28 2022 08:03 Nakajin wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote: On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Gamescom 2013, Blizzcon 2015, 2018, 2019, Kato 2015-19, there has been a good number of middly to bad performances from him at foreign event. what are those, 8 tournaments? (Kato 16 was foreigner-only). Since his last GSL win, he has lost 8 Code S in a row. Yes it is statistically more than possible that this is just by chance and he doesn't perform worse than in korean tournaments, he isn't Flash, losing 8 tournaments in a row isn't out of the norm for him. Don't get me wrong, him not having a WC title is a significant hole in his resumee but I just can't agree that he performs significantly worse in overseas tournaments. His play there looks as strong as always(except at Kato 19), it just hasn't quite worked out with the title yet. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20713 Posts
It’s no knock on Maru really, it’s only notable because he’s such a great player. He’s basically the reverse Taeja | ||
tigera6
2904 Posts
Now to get crazy about what just happened, I could assume that Maru threw on purpose because he doesnt want to exhaust his TvP and especially his TvZ build in a Bo7 against Dark in the Grand Final. This is just like how he lost to Bunny in TSL 8 where he tried to drop the entire army into the opponent main, get wiped and eventually lost the game. | ||
Fango
United Kingdom8803 Posts
On January 28 2022 08:03 Nakajin wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote: On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Gamescom 2013, Blizzcon 2015, 2018, 2019, Kato 2015-19, there has been a good number of middly to bad performances from him at foreign event. Blizzcon 2013 was also a bit of a miss opportunity, maybe not a bad performance because JD was playing well, but MC into DuckDeok into JD to get to a world final was still a dream bracket. Obviout he did well at WESG, but I'd say the big question mark is that there's no crowd at WESG (at least the one he won, I don't remember all of them) so presumably less media/event stuff with people speaking a forein language, there's also less travel time and little jet lag. And I mean obviously it's like a 3-4 players event, and he ended first, second and third at his three tries it's fairly on par with what one could expect. He wasn't at Katowice 2016 or 2017. In 2018/19/20/21 he made the ro4 3/4 times. How people can use making the semi finals of the most stacked tournament 3/4 in a row as a knock against Maru?. Considering no one else has managed that. Sure, Maru should have won at least two of them or so. He did choke in three ro4s. But he still got pretty far. People need to remember Maru has played like 10 international events in his entire career. His percentage of reaching the ro4/finals and winning in them is probably similar or better as in korean events (he's won 8 korean tournaments out of easily 50+) The amount of WeEG slander is ridiculous. It was an international event, with travel time and media present. One that the korean players Calling it a 3-4 player event is also pointless considering his actual run to victory is no worse than any number of championships. He still beat Reynor, Serral, and Dark in playoffs to win the cup. | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20713 Posts
Still a decent crown to take, especially when Serral and Reynor gave the foreign scene some S class talent to the bill | ||
JJH777
United States4280 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland20713 Posts
Although IMO a big part of why it is undervalued is merely How it was presented to the Western foreign audience, which isn’t entirely fair in terms of judging prestige. It may be very highly regarded by the Koreans, I’ve just never really heard them speak of it either way. It’s a pity as I’d really like one more Olympic style tournament to really nail it. A different kind of format, tapping in to national pride in a non-jingoistic way, Nation Wars was great. WCG had a better format in BW where you had a kind of two-tier tournament where WCG Korea was treated as an actual tournament in and of itself, was obviously absolutely stacked and you got the bragging rights and opportunity to represent Korea in the main event. If a lot of the impactful events are taking place in qualifiers that we don’t even see, it really dampens hype and ergo prestige. Although looking purely rationally at it yeah it’s a tough tough tournament to win | ||
Argonauta
Spain4724 Posts
On January 28 2022 07:21 Xain0n wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote: On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Yes, he failed to reach the finals twice by one map, that could be bad luck(and it wasn't). However, Maru has had the longest career out of every sc2 player and he has been top tier if not outright dominant at least in three different periods in the history of Sc2 and he has not won ONE tournament for which he had to travel consistently far from home; isn't it weird for a player who is(and was) that good? Adding to this, Maru also hasn't won any tournament between 3PM and 7PM in my local time. Isnt it weird for a player who is(and was) that good? | ||
Vindicare605
United States15713 Posts
On January 28 2022 17:27 Argonauta wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 07:21 Xain0n wrote: On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote: On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Yes, he failed to reach the finals twice by one map, that could be bad luck(and it wasn't). However, Maru has had the longest career out of every sc2 player and he has been top tier if not outright dominant at least in three different periods in the history of Sc2 and he has not won ONE tournament for which he had to travel consistently far from home; isn't it weird for a player who is(and was) that good? Adding to this, Maru also hasn't won any tournament between 3PM and 7PM in my local time. Isnt it weird for a player who is(and was) that good? No because he plays in Code S in MY local time (3AM to 7AM), where he is the most dominant player that has ever been in the tournament. So there! Mine counters out yours. | ||
Poopi
France12466 Posts
On January 28 2022 17:27 Argonauta wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 07:21 Xain0n wrote: On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote: On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Yes, he failed to reach the finals twice by one map, that could be bad luck(and it wasn't). However, Maru has had the longest career out of every sc2 player and he has been top tier if not outright dominant at least in three different periods in the history of Sc2 and he has not won ONE tournament for which he had to travel consistently far from home; isn't it weird for a player who is(and was) that good? Adding to this, Maru also hasn't won any tournament between 3PM and 7PM in my local time. Isnt it weird for a player who is(and was) that good? Yeah it’s super weird, he MUST really prefer when his European fans are eating while watching him. He is obviiiously weaker when it’s the afternoon in Europe, he did not win a tournament at that exact time. I did not find Maru below his level of play outside of Korea, so this thing is pure imagination imo. The fact that he didn’t win is not super surprising either, even in 2018 he did not win everything in Korea (notably the super tournament, GSL vs The World). | ||
Pandain
United States12860 Posts
On January 28 2022 15:29 JJH777 wrote: Calling it a decent crown is slandering a tournament that pays $200k to first place. There is 0 reason besides bias to rate WESG below or even equal to anything besides Katowice, Blizzcon, and Code S. It is very far above anything else. And it's also closer to Blizzcon than most think. If you look at who a champion beat to win each Blizzcon vs each WESG it's not going to be that different most of the time. It's only below Code S/Katowice due to their superior formats. There's like a million reasons to rate WESG below many other tournaments. Why would people be biased? People love Maru. There were exactly three Koreans at WESG. And this is at a time before foreigners were regularly putting up extremely competitive matches against Koreans. To make the point even more: Look at WESG 2016. Do you really think that is a mammoth achievement for TY to beat, let's see, Maru,, and uh Neeb and Stephano? Comparable to a Blizzcon or Code S? | ||
Poopi
France12466 Posts
On January 28 2022 22:37 Pandain wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 15:29 JJH777 wrote: Calling it a decent crown is slandering a tournament that pays $200k to first place. There is 0 reason besides bias to rate WESG below or even equal to anything besides Katowice, Blizzcon, and Code S. It is very far above anything else. And it's also closer to Blizzcon than most think. If you look at who a champion beat to win each Blizzcon vs each WESG it's not going to be that different most of the time. It's only below Code S/Katowice due to their superior formats. There's like a million reasons to rate WESG below many other tournaments. Why would people be biased? People love Maru. There were exactly three Koreans at WESG. And this is at a time before foreigners were regularly putting up extremely competitive matches against Koreans. To make the point even more: Look at WESG 2016. Do you really think that is a mammoth achievement for TY to beat, let's see, Maru,, and uh Neeb and Stephano? Comparable to a Blizzcon or Code S? Neeb was the best foreigner by far in 2017 (when WESG 2016 was played), and MarineLord was in his LotV prime having 5-0d Korea in nation wars only a year before -> 3-0ing all three of them in all match-ups is a good performance from Maru. Rogue 2017 BlizzCon run is indeed harder than TY’s WESG (without including qualifier) because he was a bit unlucky bracket wise, but if soO won instead it would have been a similar run in playoffs: Gumiho (relatively easy opponent, comparable to Mlord imo albeit slightly stronger), SpeCial (easier than Neeb) and Rogue (tough opponent in the finals, like TY vs Maru at WESG). And afaik he didn’t say WESG was better than BlizzCon/Katowice/Code S; but that it was better than the other tournaments below those three, which seems like a reasonable take. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 28 2022 09:32 Charoisaur wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 08:03 Nakajin wrote: On January 28 2022 06:48 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 03:37 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 03:36 Poopi wrote: On January 28 2022 03:27 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 02:58 Charoisaur wrote: On January 28 2022 02:20 Lokol18 wrote: On January 28 2022 02:04 Xain0n wrote: Zest's 2021 was great but there should be no doubt Trap was the best Protoss in 2021, overall; thus said, I agree with tigera6 about Zest's current form. As for Maru, iirc he has never even reached the finals of an offline event outside of Asia(he won WESG in China and came second at IEM Taipei). It's clear that Maru could win Katowice(he reached the semifinals there twice before), it's also undeniable that he hasn't been as formidable playing abroad as when he plays in Korea(or not so far from Korea) throughout his whole career; maybe it's a coincidence but it's a ten year long coincidence. I mean, for most of maru's career he barely played outside of korea. That's like one of the things he is known for. It would make sense that he wouldn't be as successful outside of korea then Yeah, his 2019 IEM Katowice was a disaster but outside of that he did quite well in foreign tournaments, 2 times semifinals in Katowice, 1 time in Blizzcon. just unfortunate he didn't win one, in most of those finals he would've been favored if he made it there. Well he did, but he never delivered. Which is the point. Maru is weaker outside of Asia(so people stop complaining about WESG where the hardest part for a Korean player was the Korean qualification). It's not that he's that bad, but imagine 2018/9 - he was about to win another Code S(or he just won his 4th) and yet he didn't deliver the WC crown. That's the whole point. He was the best player of 2018 and he gets smashed by sOs in the RO8 of Blizzcon. Maru outside of Korea is much weaker. He delivers great games, no question about that, but not results. Case in point Maru v Dear Edit> Even the last IEM. Sure, he lost to the "future" winner Reynor, but what did Reynor do after that? Gone into hiding. What did Maru do? If Kato is offline Maru won't win it. Even in a great form he will run out of builds somewhere around the RO8/RO4. As is his standard. He is not weak outside of Korea, you just can't win everything lmao. Especially Blizzcon 2018, TvP was very hard in macro games but it was hidden by Maru's proxies; problem was that sOs helped him with these proxies so he knew how to handle them, Maru crumbled. It's not like other terrans did better than Maru outside of Korea, except for IEM 2019 where TY got one round further iirc (just got out of group stages). the point is he never. won. anything. That's the whole point. The exact same point applies for Trap v tier1 tournaments. Edit> And this is not about "but other Terrans did the same or worse". Maru was the best Terran for years now. Maru won plenty of tournaments with the best players in them. Maru never won anything outside of Asia. I don't see how WESG which is basically identical time-zone(if not the same) applies to the fact Maru seems to have issues with travelling but whatever. Maru is one of the best Terrans in the history of SC2. Yet he for some reason is weaker in the foreignerlands. TY won IEM. Byun won Blizzcon. Innovation is in the same boat Edit 2> This is not shitting on Maru BTW. This is just stating why so many people think he won't win Katowice. Similarly many wouldn't consider Trap to win Katowice even if he was in a great form. Because the best he did in a "tier 1" tournament was 2nd. He's either cursed or otherwise blocked to win thes, unfortunately. Yeah he hasn't won anything. However is it because he played worse in foreign events or because he got unfortunate? I think those results he had could have just as well also happened if the tournaments were played in korea. He wins more korean tournaments than anyone else but he isn't Flash and also loses a lot. At Katowice 2019 he clearly underperformed but I think at the other tournaments he didn't necessarily play worse than in korean tournaments. He lost 2 times by 1 map to Rogue. Do you really think this couldn't have happened if the tournaments were played in korea? Gamescom 2013, Blizzcon 2015, 2018, 2019, Kato 2015-19, there has been a good number of middly to bad performances from him at foreign event. what are those, 8 tournaments? (Kato 16 was foreigner-only). Since his last GSL win, he has lost 8 Code S in a row. Yes it is statistically more than possible that this is just by chance and he doesn't perform worse than in korean tournaments, he isn't Flash, losing 8 tournaments in a row isn't out of the norm for him. Don't get me wrong, him not having a WC title is a significant hole in his resumee but I just can't agree that he performs significantly worse in overseas tournaments. His play there looks as strong as always(except at Kato 19), it just hasn't quite worked out with the title yet. Maru loves to play a game style which is playing on a knives edge. Which - when played properly - looks fabulous. When something fails randomly, because shit happens, it doesn't look good. To me it always looked like Maru either didn't have his day and did something wrong, or just ran out of builds and did some standard nonsense which isn't his cup which resulted in doing more wrong things. On January 28 2022 04:24 Fanatic-Templar wrote: HELL YEAH! NEW PROTOSS CHAMPION FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE 2019! And some of the games were exciting, too! Absolutely ecstatic in this corner, I know it's Super Tournament and those don't correlate to Protoss performance in anything else, but I really feel optimistic right now. Good times are coming. Let's go!!!! Wait what? Zest and new? Did you miss Trap the last year? I'm confused :D | ||
tommey.liang
United States355 Posts
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Moonerz
United States408 Posts
On January 28 2022 22:37 Pandain wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 15:29 JJH777 wrote: Calling it a decent crown is slandering a tournament that pays $200k to first place. There is 0 reason besides bias to rate WESG below or even equal to anything besides Katowice, Blizzcon, and Code S. It is very far above anything else. And it's also closer to Blizzcon than most think. If you look at who a champion beat to win each Blizzcon vs each WESG it's not going to be that different most of the time. It's only below Code S/Katowice due to their superior formats. There's like a million reasons to rate WESG below many other tournaments. Why would people be biased? People love Maru. There were exactly three Koreans at WESG. And this is at a time before foreigners were regularly putting up extremely competitive matches against Koreans. To make the point even more: Look at WESG 2016. Do you really think that is a mammoth achievement for TY to beat, let's see, Maru,, and uh Neeb and Stephano? Comparable to a Blizzcon or Code S? The reason there is 3 koreans is because.... they all play a qualifier to determine those 3. That qualifier is tougher than the tournament and is actually one of the tougher tournaments period because everyone wants to go to WESG for the 200k. Obviously this has declined a bit in the post Kespa era with the depth of the scene not being as insane as it once was. Blizzcon and these season finals usually have quite a few players that aren't really competitive as well. | ||
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5811 Posts
On January 28 2022 23:55 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 04:24 Fanatic-Templar wrote: HELL YEAH! NEW PROTOSS CHAMPION FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE 2019! And some of the games were exciting, too! Absolutely ecstatic in this corner, I know it's Super Tournament and those don't correlate to Protoss performance in anything else, but I really feel optimistic right now. Good times are coming. Let's go!!!! Wait what? Zest and new? Did you miss Trap the last year? I'm confused :D No. Trap was the old champion, now we have a new one. So this is the first time we get a Protoss champion that isn't Trap since 2019. What's confusing? | ||
Pandain
United States12860 Posts
On January 28 2022 23:58 Moonerz wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 22:37 Pandain wrote: On January 28 2022 15:29 JJH777 wrote: Calling it a decent crown is slandering a tournament that pays $200k to first place. There is 0 reason besides bias to rate WESG below or even equal to anything besides Katowice, Blizzcon, and Code S. It is very far above anything else. And it's also closer to Blizzcon than most think. If you look at who a champion beat to win each Blizzcon vs each WESG it's not going to be that different most of the time. It's only below Code S/Katowice due to their superior formats. There's like a million reasons to rate WESG below many other tournaments. Why would people be biased? People love Maru. There were exactly three Koreans at WESG. And this is at a time before foreigners were regularly putting up extremely competitive matches against Koreans. To make the point even more: Look at WESG 2016. Do you really think that is a mammoth achievement for TY to beat, let's see, Maru,, and uh Neeb and Stephano? Comparable to a Blizzcon or Code S? The reason there is 3 koreans is because.... they all play a qualifier to determine those 3. That qualifier is tougher than the tournament and is actually one of the tougher tournaments period because everyone wants to go to WESG for the 200k. Obviously this has declined a bit in the post Kespa era with the depth of the scene not being as insane as it once was. Blizzcon and these season finals usually have quite a few players that aren't really competitive as well. There's plenty of tournaments (more so historically probably pre-2018, at least pre-covid) that always had extremely stacked korean qualifiers (at least for free spots in group stages etc.). And by your logic Blizzcon should be the absolute peak of all tournaments because not only did Koreans need to *qualify* to enter, they needed to continually show they were the top ~8 over a period of a whole year. I see your logic and it may be arbitrary, but winning a qualifier is not what we care about, no matter how impressive it was what you did. Pervical could absolutely wreck a qualifier beating Dark, Maru, and you name it, and then lose in the Ro24. The community would simply not view it as meaningful as if he made it to even just the round of 8 of a major international tournament. | ||
Charoisaur
Germany15615 Posts
On January 29 2022 08:40 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Show nested quote + On January 28 2022 23:55 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 04:24 Fanatic-Templar wrote: HELL YEAH! NEW PROTOSS CHAMPION FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE 2019! And some of the games were exciting, too! Absolutely ecstatic in this corner, I know it's Super Tournament and those don't correlate to Protoss performance in anything else, but I really feel optimistic right now. Good times are coming. Let's go!!!! Wait what? Zest and new? Did you miss Trap the last year? I'm confused :D No. Trap was the old champion, now we have a new one. So this is the first time we get a Protoss champion that isn't Trap since 2019. What's confusing? if you worded it like that initially it wouldn't be confusing. I also had no idea what you meant to say | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20713 Posts
On January 29 2022 18:49 Charoisaur wrote: Show nested quote + On January 29 2022 08:40 Fanatic-Templar wrote: On January 28 2022 23:55 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 04:24 Fanatic-Templar wrote: HELL YEAH! NEW PROTOSS CHAMPION FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE 2019! And some of the games were exciting, too! Absolutely ecstatic in this corner, I know it's Super Tournament and those don't correlate to Protoss performance in anything else, but I really feel optimistic right now. Good times are coming. Let's go!!!! Wait what? Zest and new? Did you miss Trap the last year? I'm confused :D No. Trap was the old champion, now we have a new one. So this is the first time we get a Protoss champion that isn't Trap since 2019. What's confusing? if you worded it like that initially it wouldn't be confusing. I also had no idea what you meant to say Maybe a native speaker thing, I instantly took it to mean there is a Protoss champion other than Trap for the first time since 2019 | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On January 29 2022 18:51 WombaT wrote: Show nested quote + On January 29 2022 18:49 Charoisaur wrote: On January 29 2022 08:40 Fanatic-Templar wrote: On January 28 2022 23:55 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 04:24 Fanatic-Templar wrote: HELL YEAH! NEW PROTOSS CHAMPION FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE 2019! And some of the games were exciting, too! Absolutely ecstatic in this corner, I know it's Super Tournament and those don't correlate to Protoss performance in anything else, but I really feel optimistic right now. Good times are coming. Let's go!!!! Wait what? Zest and new? Did you miss Trap the last year? I'm confused :D No. Trap was the old champion, now we have a new one. So this is the first time we get a Protoss champion that isn't Trap since 2019. What's confusing? if you worded it like that initially it wouldn't be confusing. I also had no idea what you meant to say Maybe a native speaker thing, I instantly took it to mean there is a Protoss champion other than Trap for the first time since 2019 Most probably. I am just glad I wasn't the only one confused | ||
Fanatic-Templar
Canada5811 Posts
On January 29 2022 20:34 deacon.frost wrote: Show nested quote + On January 29 2022 18:51 WombaT wrote: On January 29 2022 18:49 Charoisaur wrote: On January 29 2022 08:40 Fanatic-Templar wrote: On January 28 2022 23:55 deacon.frost wrote: On January 28 2022 04:24 Fanatic-Templar wrote: HELL YEAH! NEW PROTOSS CHAMPION FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE 2019! And some of the games were exciting, too! Absolutely ecstatic in this corner, I know it's Super Tournament and those don't correlate to Protoss performance in anything else, but I really feel optimistic right now. Good times are coming. Let's go!!!! Wait what? Zest and new? Did you miss Trap the last year? I'm confused :D No. Trap was the old champion, now we have a new one. So this is the first time we get a Protoss champion that isn't Trap since 2019. What's confusing? if you worded it like that initially it wouldn't be confusing. I also had no idea what you meant to say Maybe a native speaker thing, I instantly took it to mean there is a Protoss champion other than Trap for the first time since 2019 Most probably. I am just glad I wasn't the only one confused Oh, I think I get it. It might be because normally that statement would have been dated from the last time we got a new Protoss champion - that is, "New Protoss champion for the first time since December 2020", but because I included the 2019-2020 period of no Protoss champions at all, it made it less clear that I was referring to Zest as succeeding Trap. Could that be it? | ||
Jenia6109
Russian Federation1607 Posts
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jahny1
2 Posts
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jahny1
2 Posts
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