On May 07 2021 05:57 Xain0n wrote: Rogue has the average quality of his successes and the pristine record in offline bo7 over Serral, literally nothing else; he didn't even earn more than Serral in LoTV. Only a fanboy could think Rogue would be the uncontested best Zerg or compare him to Brood War's Jaedong.
By the way, I'm out of this thread; enjoy this obscene series and this redundant success, Rogue shouldn't have won this Code S but for sure deserved to win the finals.
You and your pathetic vitriol are so predictable, dissing Rogue whenever he wins something just because he's better than Serral and you know it. You only say he ''deserved'' to win the finals because again its against another player who's miles better than Serral. In fact you have been extremely bitter ever since the finals matchup was announced, god knows what sort of nonsense you would be spilling here if Maru had won.
Listing any of those folks as being ‘miles’ better than Serral is hyperbolic in the extreme.
Not that I condone silly bashing of Rogue for his fantastic achievements
Saying that Rogue's achievements aren't better than Serral's and that, in any of case, it would be foolish to claim that he is the uncontested best Zerg is "silly bashing"?
This is the first time I express my distaste for Rogue's way of winning his titles, I said literally nothing when he won his last Code S and Katowice; on the contrary, I am pretty sure I said that a player of Rogue's caliber couldn't end his career without a Code S final after he won his first. It's undeniable that Rogue is one of the greats, calling him GOAT and way better than Serral is instead excessive; be sure I am deeply convinced of what I am writing here.
I expected much more from a Code S final between Maru vs Rogue and I was genuinely horrified by Rogue's abusiveness and Maru's subpar performance. If I were a player I would personally be much closer to Rogue's approach to the game but as a fan I absolutely hate it and I also feel that he has won more than he would have deserved in the last year and half judging by his level of play; in any of case, those are just my thoughts, and I have to admit his clutchness and surgical dissection of his opponents in those awful finals are to be admired.
come on dude, didn't you say you were out of this thread?
On May 07 2021 05:57 Xain0n wrote: By the way, I'm out of this thread; enjoy this obscene series and this redundant success, Rogue shouldn't have won this Code S but for sure deserved to win the finals.
it's super entertaining watching people arguing, I haven't seen such a heated debate in a long time tbh personally, as great as Serral is until he wins a GSL-type tournament I can't call him the GOAT. I just value GSL titles too much
Involving Serral, or any foreigner in a GOAT discussion is laughable. They will never come close to even be a top 5. Its pointless. As for Rogue, he is so much better than Serral as is Manchester City compared Leyron Orient. There is no comparison. Rogue could get eliminated in the first round of all the next tournaments and he would still be far superior. Its a joke, lets just stop this nonsense.
imagine being this delusional
he's exaggerating but I think nobody in their right mind should argue Serral's achievements are somehow superior to winning 3 World Championships, 3 GSLs and 2 other top tier tournaments. I agree that Serral is probably on average the better player in a ladder environment but Rogue is just better at winning tournaments (Serral also competed at every World Championship Rogue won but performed much worse except at the one he won)
Rogue is better at winning tournaments and Rogue is way more clutch and he's better
I corrected that for you, as the rest of the post is complete gibberish. You're welcome
On May 07 2021 17:20 MockHamill wrote: People overestimate tournament wins. Aligulac is better for showing real skill over time. Tournaments comes down to combination of skill, bracket luck and how good your are a particular day.
Winning the cup is not as good as winning the league. Just as winning Wimbledon is good but being the number 1 ranked player all year is much better.
I am watching a lot of tennis and I am the biggest Federer fanboy ever and I couldn't care less about who is ranked where. Grand Slams are everything! I think your "fact" is pretty much your personal "opinion" and you have a right to that. But that is all. Nobody I know who cares about tennis, cares about rank for that matter
On May 07 2021 17:20 MockHamill wrote: People overestimate tournament wins. Aligulac is better for showing real skill over time. Tournaments comes down to combination of skill, bracket luck and how good your are a particular day.
Winning the cup is not as good as winning the league. Just as winning Wimbledon is good but being the number 1 ranked player all year is much better.
I am watching a lot of tennis and I am the biggest Federer fanboy ever and I couldn't care less about who is ranked where. Grand Slams are everything! I think your "fact" is pretty much your personal "opinion" and you have a right to that. But that is all. Nobody I know who cares about tennis, cares about rank for that matter
The fun point though is that aligulac just is not a league? The equivalent would be WCS / EPT points ranking for each region.
On May 07 2021 17:20 MockHamill wrote: People overestimate tournament wins. Aligulac is better for showing real skill over time. Tournaments comes down to combination of skill, bracket luck and how good your are a particular day.
Winning the cup is not as good as winning the league. Just as winning Wimbledon is good but being the number 1 ranked player all year is much better.
I am watching a lot of tennis and I am the biggest Federer fanboy ever and I couldn't care less about who is ranked where. Grand Slams are everything! I think your "fact" is pretty much your personal "opinion" and you have a right to that. But that is all. Nobody I know who cares about tennis, cares about rank for that matter
Greatness isn’t an absolute measure of anything, it encompasses many elements and is incredibly subjective.
I’m with you on Fed, but I think it’s a combination of how dominant he was at his peak, his sheer skill, style and elegance and also competing through such a span and relative oldness. In terms of slams he’ll probably be overtaken, he may remain my greatest for those reasons. Other mitigating factors are in play as well, notably Wimbledon slowing the courts down to enable pure baseliners to be more competitive. I don’t think there’s any way Nadal, or basically anyone else could have stopped Federer winning another few Wimbledons if the courts were as quick as in the Sampras era. Conversely Nadal’s strongest surface over at Roland Garros still plays to his strengths.
Being the best at something competitive, is more easily measurable, except we can’t really measure it in SC2 as racial disparities and patch changes alter this all the time.
Ronnie O’Sullivan, or Lionel Messi are clearly the best at their sport, Ronnie in full flow is unbelievable and is capable of things others aren’t, and is even handy playing left-handed. Messi goes without comment, but this doesn’t necessarily make them the greatest.
In Starcraft 1 Flash is both the best and close to being the undisputed GOAT as well. I’m sure some will argue it’s someone else but it’s as close to unanimous as you can get in such a subjective judgement.
In SC2? I’m in the camp there’s quite a few in the conversation for the GOAT, and even the best is quite tricky to ascertain as races are a thing. Maru’s skill at basically everything puts him probably up there for me as the best SC2 player, he does amazing things mechanically in every area. Serral on his monster streak showed great mechanical chops but on the other side of the game most showcased an incredible consistency in reading games and responding correctly that was pretty astounding too. Mvp at his peak in an earlier phase of the game was just better at the game than everyone, but his greatness was cemented by how he performed when he wasn’t. I think both Life and the peak form of Inno had phases were they just were the best player skill wise.
On May 07 2021 17:20 MockHamill wrote: People overestimate tournament wins. Aligulac is better for showing real skill over time. Tournaments comes down to combination of skill, bracket luck and how good your are a particular day.
Winning the cup is not as good as winning the league. Just as winning Wimbledon is good but being the number 1 ranked player all year is much better.
I am watching a lot of tennis and I am the biggest Federer fanboy ever and I couldn't care less about who is ranked where. Grand Slams are everything! I think your "fact" is pretty much your personal "opinion" and you have a right to that. But that is all. Nobody I know who cares about tennis, cares about rank for that matter
Greatness isn’t an absolute measure of anything, it encompasses many elements and is incredibly subjective.
I’m with you on Fed, but I think it’s a combination of how dominant he was at his peak, his sheer skill, style and elegance and also competing through such a span and relative oldness. In terms of slams he’ll probably be overtaken, he may remain my greatest for those reasons. Other mitigating factors are in play as well, notably Wimbledon slowing the courts down to enable pure baseliners to be more competitive. I don’t think there’s any way Nadal, or basically anyone else could have stopped Federer winning another few Wimbledons if the courts were as quick as in the Sampras era. Conversely Nadal’s strongest surface over at Roland Garros still plays to his strengths.
Being the best at something competitive, is more easily measurable, except we can’t really measure it in SC2 as racial disparities and patch changes alter this all the time.
Ronnie O’Sullivan, or Lionel Messi are clearly the best at their sport, Ronnie in full flow is unbelievable and is capable of things others aren’t, and is even handy playing left-handed. Messi goes without comment, but this doesn’t necessarily make them the greatest.
In Starcraft 1 Flash is both the best and close to being the undisputed GOAT as well. I’m sure some will argue it’s someone else but it’s as close to unanimous as you can get in such a subjective judgement.
In SC2? I’m in the camp there’s quite a few in the conversation for the GOAT, and even the best is quite tricky to ascertain as races are a thing. Maru’s skill at basically everything puts him probably up there for me as the best SC2 player, he does amazing things mechanically in every area. Serral on his monster streak showed great mechanical chops but on the other side of the game most showcased an incredible consistency in reading games and responding correctly that was pretty astounding too. Mvp at his peak in an earlier phase of the game was just better at the game than everyone, but his greatness was cemented by how he performed when he wasn’t. I think both Life and the peak form of Inno had phases were they just were the best player skill wise.
lol, using Messi as an example of clearly being the best when the last decade is in the name of - Ronaldo v Messi. Do you like watch football at all?
On May 07 2021 17:20 MockHamill wrote: People overestimate tournament wins. Aligulac is better for showing real skill over time. Tournaments comes down to combination of skill, bracket luck and how good your are a particular day.
Winning the cup is not as good as winning the league. Just as winning Wimbledon is good but being the number 1 ranked player all year is much better.
I am watching a lot of tennis and I am the biggest Federer fanboy ever and I couldn't care less about who is ranked where. Grand Slams are everything! I think your "fact" is pretty much your personal "opinion" and you have a right to that. But that is all. Nobody I know who cares about tennis, cares about rank for that matter
Greatness isn’t an absolute measure of anything, it encompasses many elements and is incredibly subjective.
I’m with you on Fed, but I think it’s a combination of how dominant he was at his peak, his sheer skill, style and elegance and also competing through such a span and relative oldness. In terms of slams he’ll probably be overtaken, he may remain my greatest for those reasons. Other mitigating factors are in play as well, notably Wimbledon slowing the courts down to enable pure baseliners to be more competitive. I don’t think there’s any way Nadal, or basically anyone else could have stopped Federer winning another few Wimbledons if the courts were as quick as in the Sampras era. Conversely Nadal’s strongest surface over at Roland Garros still plays to his strengths.
Being the best at something competitive, is more easily measurable, except we can’t really measure it in SC2 as racial disparities and patch changes alter this all the time.
Ronnie O’Sullivan, or Lionel Messi are clearly the best at their sport, Ronnie in full flow is unbelievable and is capable of things others aren’t, and is even handy playing left-handed. Messi goes without comment, but this doesn’t necessarily make them the greatest.
In Starcraft 1 Flash is both the best and close to being the undisputed GOAT as well. I’m sure some will argue it’s someone else but it’s as close to unanimous as you can get in such a subjective judgement.
In SC2? I’m in the camp there’s quite a few in the conversation for the GOAT, and even the best is quite tricky to ascertain as races are a thing. Maru’s skill at basically everything puts him probably up there for me as the best SC2 player, he does amazing things mechanically in every area. Serral on his monster streak showed great mechanical chops but on the other side of the game most showcased an incredible consistency in reading games and responding correctly that was pretty astounding too. Mvp at his peak in an earlier phase of the game was just better at the game than everyone, but his greatness was cemented by how he performed when he wasn’t. I think both Life and the peak form of Inno had phases were they just were the best player skill wise.
lol, using Messi as an example of clearly being the best when the last decade is in the name of - Ronaldo v Messi. Do you like watch football at all?
Well yes, Messi is clearly the better footballer, he is better at football. Having watched them both plenty over the years I’m not sure why this is even under debate.
Who is the greater footballer though? Hey now there’s a spicy topic where factors like being clutch, dragging poor teams to glory and whatnot all come into play, and yeah then Ronaldo can very much have his say in that debate.
Likewise if pushed I’d say Maru firing on all cylinders is the best SC2 player out there, but whether he’s the greatest is much more debatable
On May 08 2021 01:00 LTCM wrote: Best vs most accomplished is what you two are arguing. The most skilled player isn't always the one that wins the most.
Why is the most skilled player in a 1v1 game not winning? I can understand why the most skilled player can have bad achievements in the team sports, but in individual? Whut?
On May 08 2021 01:00 LTCM wrote: Best vs most accomplished is what you two are arguing. The most skilled player isn't always the one that wins the most.
Why is the most skilled player in a 1v1 game not winning? I can understand why the most skilled player can have bad achievements in the team sports, but in individual? Whut?
Since there are three races and the balance is not perfect / different between patches, it can be an argument for why the most skilled player is not necessarily winning. However it does not work when comparing players of the same race. But over time (at least when blizzard still patched its game) this should correct itself.
On May 08 2021 01:00 LTCM wrote: Best vs most accomplished is what you two are arguing. The most skilled player isn't always the one that wins the most.
Why is the most skilled player in a 1v1 game not winning? I can understand why the most skilled player can have bad achievements in the team sports, but in individual? Whut?
Since there are three races and the balance is not perfect / different between patches, it can be an argument for why the most skilled player is not necessarily winning. However it does not work when comparing players of the same race. But over time (at least when blizzard still patched its game) this should correct itself.
also, it does make sense that someone could be super skilled but not winning anything, that would be called underachieving or choking. Players like Canata and Rain were known to be very strong during practice games, even though they never made any super deep runs in the pro days.
Another example is Flash in 2009 won no starleagues. He had a 74.1% winrate (which is godlike in BW and unheard of in SC2), which is almost the same as his 75.0% winrate in 2010, his peak. Bisu didn't win any starleagues in 2009 or 2011 but he was a proleague god in those years. Even though they didn't win any starleagues, they would likely be favoured to beat basically anyone in a practice and proleague setting but tournament setting is different thing altogether.
On May 07 2021 17:20 MockHamill wrote: People overestimate tournament wins. Aligulac is better for showing real skill over time. Tournaments comes down to combination of skill, bracket luck and how good your are a particular day.
Winning the cup is not as good as winning the league. Just as winning Wimbledon is good but being the number 1 ranked player all year is much better.
I am watching a lot of tennis and I am the biggest Federer fanboy ever and I couldn't care less about who is ranked where. Grand Slams are everything! I think your "fact" is pretty much your personal "opinion" and you have a right to that. But that is all. Nobody I know who cares about tennis, cares about rank for that matter
Greatness isn’t an absolute measure of anything, it encompasses many elements and is incredibly subjective.
I’m with you on Fed, but I think it’s a combination of how dominant he was at his peak, his sheer skill, style and elegance and also competing through such a span and relative oldness. In terms of slams he’ll probably be overtaken, he may remain my greatest for those reasons. Other mitigating factors are in play as well, notably Wimbledon slowing the courts down to enable pure baseliners to be more competitive. I don’t think there’s any way Nadal, or basically anyone else could have stopped Federer winning another few Wimbledons if the courts were as quick as in the Sampras era. Conversely Nadal’s strongest surface over at Roland Garros still plays to his strengths.
Being the best at something competitive, is more easily measurable, except we can’t really measure it in SC2 as racial disparities and patch changes alter this all the time.
Ronnie O’Sullivan, or Lionel Messi are clearly the best at their sport, Ronnie in full flow is unbelievable and is capable of things others aren’t, and is even handy playing left-handed. Messi goes without comment, but this doesn’t necessarily make them the greatest.
In Starcraft 1 Flash is both the best and close to being the undisputed GOAT as well. I’m sure some will argue it’s someone else but it’s as close to unanimous as you can get in such a subjective judgement.
In SC2? I’m in the camp there’s quite a few in the conversation for the GOAT, and even the best is quite tricky to ascertain as races are a thing. Maru’s skill at basically everything puts him probably up there for me as the best SC2 player, he does amazing things mechanically in every area. Serral on his monster streak showed great mechanical chops but on the other side of the game most showcased an incredible consistency in reading games and responding correctly that was pretty astounding too. Mvp at his peak in an earlier phase of the game was just better at the game than everyone, but his greatness was cemented by how he performed when he wasn’t. I think both Life and the peak form of Inno had phases were they just were the best player skill wise.
lol, using Messi as an example of clearly being the best when the last decade is in the name of - Ronaldo v Messi. Do you like watch football at all?
Well yes, Messi is clearly the better footballer, he is better at football. Having watched them both plenty over the years I’m not sure why this is even under debate.
Who is the greater footballer though? Hey now there’s a spicy topic where factors like being clutch, dragging poor teams to glory and whatnot all come into play, and yeah then Ronaldo can very much have his say in that debate.
Likewise if pushed I’d say Maru firing on all cylinders is the best SC2 player out there, but whether he’s the greatest is much more debatable
I love Zerg, and I love Rogue, and thought that this Code S final was ugly, but you can't say that Rogue didn't dominate it.
I don't think it's fair to say that Rogue's tournament wins never feature beautiful games. I became a fan of Rogue in his miracle year running up to when he won BlizzCon and I thought there were a number of beautiful macro games in those tournaments. The whole reason I became a fan of Rogue that year is that he seemed like the first Zerg who had some lategame builds and strats that seemed actually solid against stuff like maxed out mech and Protoss armies, where lategame Zerg actually looked viable. Serral subsequently took that a step further and refined it, but Rogue's games during that run weren't largely defined by roach aggression etc.
I felt the whole late rounds of this Code S felt like most of the top dogs were really not in their best form, games seemed to feature allins much more frequently than is even usual. But I didn't really understand what happened in the final. Have Dark and Reynor (and now Rogue) helped rewrite the meta regarding roach ravager vs. bio? I always thought it was terrible and it seemed strange to me that a great player like Dark would favor them so much when it felt like if the bio Terran survives past minute X then he automatically wins. It feels like Rogue identified a particular hole in a typical Maru macro game where he could hit hard with a max or near max roach ravager army and even if a kill wasn't immediately achieved, smother Terran's economy bad enough to allow him to keep the pressure on and win with waves of big armies. It felt strange, I associate that kind of heavy roach play with Dark and Reynor, not Rogue usually.
On May 08 2021 04:11 Poaktree wrote: There is no GOAT in SC2. Plz let's move on.
Depends. Bo1 goat is maxpax bo3 Clem. Bo5 serral bo7 rogue (as he once again proved tonight).
B1 goat are probably Serral and Maru in LotV since they were afaik (please correct if the records have been beaten since then) the highest MMR ever on their respective ladders. WoL is kinda hard because MMR was hidden but Bomber and MarineKing were practice / ladder gods (idk which Protoss / zerg were at the time) HotS the top proleague players are also a good indication of bo1 capabilities, I know Maru was very strong here but sOs and Roro were also fantasy league killers iirc?
Obviously for evaluating bo1 capabilities team leagues are the best metric, and proleague was the highest level. Nation wars is a nice way to look at it but imo less meaningful than ladder since it did not happen often enough / lots of mismatchs contrary to GSTL / Proleague where even the relatively weak players had a shot at winning. Since there was not gstl/proleague in LotV, ladder seems like a good way to gauge bo1 « greatness », although it’s a bit silly to categorize GOATs depending on BoX. Goat by foreigners / Koreans or race GOAT seem more interesting categorization imho.
If nothing else, you can say that Rogue at least gets the community "engaged" lol. This thread has about double the number of comments as the Maru vs TY final from last year. Maybe Rogue can generate enough salt to keep this game alive haha.
On May 08 2021 09:35 Niravroh wrote: If nothing else, you can say that Rogue at least gets the community "engaged" lol. This thread has about double the number of comments as the Maru vs TY final from last year. Maybe Rogue can generate enough salt to keep this game alive haha.
I’d hazard a guess it’s as much due to it being a more natural tangent for Serral’s name to appear and with it the eternal battle between his fans and anti-fans
EPT
