EPT[WCS 2019] Fall (Montreal) - Championship Sunday - Page 36
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nomicrowin1
5 Posts
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Kitai
United States878 Posts
On September 09 2019 12:01 nomicrowin1 wrote: Serral is turning into the Patriots of Starcraft Minus the continuous scandals | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
On September 09 2019 08:15 MoDiV wrote: Would it be wrong to say that Serral is a Korean level player facing non-korean level players?? Yes, it would be wrong. Because the next-5 (after Serral) foreign players are basically *at* the Korean level - the next-5 Korean players are only marginally ahead of the "next-5" foreign players, IMO - we've seen them play recently and they were all very, very close. Serral is at a whole other level. He's been the best player by a bigger margin and for a longer period than anybody else in the history of Starcraft 2. He's certainly dominating harder than most Broodwar Bonjwas did - and in a game that's harder to dominate. If he'd go win a GSL there would be zero more arguments about him being a Bonjwa, but for me he is already there - he's so far over that line it's insane people still dispute his Bonjwa status, tbh. | ||
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Xitah
49 Posts
I know people bring up the preparation times in GSL that "but in GSL opponents prepare for you." Well, TY had a long time to prepare for Serral in GSL vs The World and he got stomped anyways. People had time to prepare for him in Blizzcon. If Serral had such a disadvantage in preparation matches, it would have showed it already, just like how Maru has shown his weakness in weekend tournaments. In any tournaments where they announce the bracket in advance, and your first match is against Serral, then you know you have to prepare for him, or else you shouldn't prepare at all. | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16017 Posts
On September 09 2019 13:49 Xitah wrote: Why do we have to bring up GSL every time? Serral can win GSL, easily. He is 100% the best zerg in the world and very likely also the best player. Why would anyone doubt the chances of the best Zerg and/or the best player winning a GSL? I know people bring up the preparation times in GSL that "but in GSL opponents prepare for you." Well, TY had a long time to prepare for Serral in GSL vs The World and he got stomped anyways. People had time to prepare for him in Blizzcon. If Serral had such a disadvantage in preparation matches, it would have showed it already, just like how Maru has shown his weakness in weekend tournaments. In any tournaments where they announce the bracket in advance, and your first match is against Serral, then you know you have to prepare for him, or else you shouldn't prepare at all. Rogue dominated weekenders harder than Serral (He won more non-region-locked, non-invite-only weekenders in a row than Serral has in his entire career) and was unable to win a GSL. Serral may be able to win a GSL but he also may not be able to win a GSL, we don't know. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16017 Posts
On September 09 2019 13:49 Xitah wrote: Why do we have to bring up GSL every time? Serral can win GSL, easily. He is 100% the best zerg in the world and very likely also the best player. Why would anyone doubt the chances of the best Zerg and/or the best player winning a GSL? I know people bring up the preparation times in GSL that "but in GSL opponents prepare for you." Well, TY had a long time to prepare for Serral in GSL vs The World and he got stomped anyways. People had time to prepare for him in Blizzcon. If Serral had such a disadvantage in preparation matches, it would have showed it already, just like how Maru has shown his weakness in weekend tournaments. In any tournaments where they announce the bracket in advance, and your first match is against Serral, then you know you have to prepare for him, or else you shouldn't prepare at all. If WCS is so hard to win, why does Serral dominate WCS so hard but only wins a 3rd of non-region-locked tournaments (3 out of 9!! Hurrayy bonjwaaa!!!!)? | ||
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Xitah
49 Posts
On September 09 2019 14:48 Charoisaur wrote: Rogue dominated weekenders harder than Serral (He won more non-region-locked, non-invite-only weekenders in a row than Serral has in his entire career) and was unable to win a GSL. Serral may be able to win a GSL but he also may not be able to win a GSL, we don't know. It's not true that "Rogue dominated weekeners harder". Serral:  Serral Rogue: RogueYou are adding sufficiently many quantifiers (1) winning (2) non-region-locked (3) non-invite-only (4) in a row to make a claim. That's definitely subjective. Ignore all the "non-region-locked" events if you want. Serral's results are more impressive than Rogue. But then again, the point is not that Serral in BONJWA[ or whatever. The point is that Serral is capable of winning a GSL, so participating in GSL is no longer such an interesting question. Here's a question, where do you think Serral would get eliminated in a GSL? R32 and R16 are almost like a weekener where you have to prepare for 3 people, so he's highly favored to make it to the play offs. Now, take the current playoffs and replace Dark with Serral. I would say he and Maru will be the top candidates to win. Then let him participate 3 times in GSL per year and he can win one. It's no longer a mystery. Edit: Also, nobody claimed that "WCS is so hard to win" so that point is entirely strawman. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 09 2019 15:23 Xitah wrote: It's not true that "Rogue dominated weekeners harder". Serral: Serral Rogue: RogueYou are adding sufficiently many quantifiers (1) winning (2) non-region-locked (3) non-invite-only (4) in a row to make a claim. That's definitely subjective. Ignore all the "non-region-locked" events if you want. Serral's results are more impressive than Rogue. But then again, the point is not that Serral in BONJWA[ or whatever. The point is that Serral is capable of winning a GSL, so participating in GSL is no longer such an interesting question. Here's a question, where do you think Serral would get eliminated in a GSL? R32 and R16 are almost like a weekener where you have to prepare for 3 people, so he's highly favored to make it to the play offs. Now, take the current playoffs and replace Dark with Serral. I would say he and Maru will be the top candidates to win. Then let him participate 3 times in GSL per year and he can win one. It's no longer a mystery. Edit: Also, nobody claimed that "WCS is so hard to win" so that point is entirely strawman. Rogue won in a row the following: IEM Shanghai GSL ST2 Blizzcon IEM WC Katowice Let's check Serral. GSL vs The World, Blizzcon... uhm, oh, damn, and GSL vs The world. Cool. Edit> Considering many Serral fanboys are saying that Code S is a different form of tournament and that's why Maru is so bad at weekenders(lulz), then we have to accept the fact this goes both ways. Since Code S is a different form of tournament and Serral has never shown anything to make us believe he could win. He's not capable. (well, I say we can't say as we don't know but since you're so sure I will change this to be so sure either  ) | ||
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Noa Greenini
265 Posts
On September 09 2019 16:09 deacon.frost wrote: Rogue won in a row the following: IEM Shanghai GSL ST2 Blizzcon IEM WC Katowice Let's check Serral. GSL vs The World, Blizzcon... uhm, oh, damn, and GSL vs The world. Cool. Edit> Considering many Serral fanboys are saying that Code S is a different form of tournament and that's why Maru is so bad at weekenders(lulz), then we have to accept the fact this goes both ways. Since Code S is a different form of tournament and Serral has never shown anything to make us believe he could win. He's not capable. (well, I say we can't say as we don't know but since you're so sure I will change this to be so sure either )In my opinion Rogue is no where near as impressive as Serral. The consistency in winning and the way he plays and wins... They're just not comparable. | ||
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tigon_ridge
482 Posts
On September 09 2019 16:25 Noa Greenini wrote: In my opinion Rogue is no where near as impressive as Serral. The consistency in winning and the way he plays and wins... They're just not comparable. There's no point arguing with people who deliberately brush aside HSC wins and statistics. Just let them enjoy whatever fantasies they're clinging onto. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 09 2019 16:25 Noa Greenini wrote: In my opinion Rogue is no where near as impressive as Serral. The consistency in winning and the way he plays and wins... They're just not comparable. In the longterm? Sure, no question about that. But Rogue's peak is higher and up to this day better than Serral's whole career. 2 WC titles and 2 another big tournaments. In a row. It's one of the raesons of the stupid patch zerg article. | ||
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Starcloud
138 Posts
On September 09 2019 16:58 deacon.frost wrote: In the longterm? Sure, no question about that. But Rogue's peak is higher and up to this day better than Serral's whole career. 2 WC titles and 2 another big tournaments. In a row. It's one of the raesons of the stupid patch zerg article. Again, why arent HSC counted in ? Several Koreans participated and beaten there by Serral. And secondly, how in earth is it "better than Serral´s whole career" ? Thats just delusional. And you just have to see how he has done in other competitions too. He has been in top-4 in almost every tournament and most of them in finals or then lost only to the winner. Rogue had a short and good period of ruling, but its imo not comparable to Serral in any way. What goes to this forever discussion about GSL. Lets take this seasons top-8 for review compared their shot against Serral: GSL season 3 top-8: Dark, TY, Rogue, Zest, KeeN, Trap, Maru, Ragnarok Dark: Last time lost to Elazer, who is few classes below Serral. In current form, cant see Serral losing this. TY: They have fought few times recently and Serral outclassed TY both times. Rogue: Bit better version of Dark in ZvZ, but still would consider Raynor being bigger threat than Rogue tbh. Zest: Have fought few times(?). No match for Serral. KeeN: Havent seen him play, so its non-conclusive. However he propably isnt Maru/TY-caliber, so propably would get stomped as others. Trap: Again, they fought, Serral stomped. Ragnarok: He is Korean zerg. So nope. Maru: Well this is the only one debatable imo. But comparing the current form of them, at this moment I would give Serral around 80% chance to win. Maru is nowhere near his peak and Serral is a monster. And in addition for example Neeb made it to top-4 in GSL. Look how Serral treats him nowadays. GSL Season 2 top-8 were: Classic, soO, Trap, Innovation, Hurricane, Parting, herO, Dark. And from those, only Innovation can challenge Serral, when he has his lategame in form. And even then I think Serral would be a favorite. Or if you disagree, who of those could realistically beat Serral ? So, all-in-all, we can safely conclude that Serral has a high chance to win GSL if he participated. Even Koreans fear and dont want to face him anymore. | ||
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NotSoHappy
445 Posts
>Serral is just as good as Maru and in certain aspects of the game I'd say better. >GSL is not 2013-2014 GSL, live with it. >Korea is dying and we are not getting younger, up and coming players like eg Reynor in Eu. Having said all that, they're playing this game to win $$$ and they're doing it in the best way they can and have 0 to prove to anyone at this moment. The whole discussion will stop at some point. Lastly, would you bet on Maru winning this blizzcon? Or would you bet on Serral? It's really that simple. | ||
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Noa Greenini
265 Posts
On September 09 2019 16:58 deacon.frost wrote: In the longterm? Sure, no question about that. But Rogue's peak is higher and up to this day better than Serral's whole career. 2 WC titles and 2 another big tournaments. In a row. It's one of the raesons of the stupid patch zerg article. In my opinion a peak isn't as impressive as consistency. | ||
Poopi
France12906 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6999 Posts
On September 09 2019 14:51 Charoisaur wrote: If WCS is so hard to win, why does Serral dominate WCS so hard but only wins a 3rd of non-region-locked tournaments (3 out of 9!! Hurrayy bonjwaaa!!!!)? Without checking, he placed top 4 in all of them I guess? And who won more than him? | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On September 09 2019 17:30 Noa Greenini wrote: In my opinion a peak isn't as impressive as consistency. Nobody was talking about that though The question was who dominated weekenders harder, Rogue or Serral So, uhm, yeah On September 09 2019 17:21 Starcloud wrote: Again, why arent HSC counted in ? Several Koreans participated and beaten there by Serral. And secondly, how in earth is it "better than Serral´s whole career" ? Thats just delusional. And you just have to see how he has done in other competitions too. He has been in top-4 in almost every tournament and most of them in finals or then lost only to the winner. Rogue had a short and good period of ruling, but its imo not comparable to Serral in any way. What goes to this forever discussion about GSL. Lets take this seasons top-8 for review compared their shot against Serral: GSL season 3 top-8: Dark, TY, Rogue, Zest, KeeN, Trap, Maru, Ragnarok Dark: Last time lost to Elazer, who is few classes below Serral. In current form, cant see Serral losing this. TY: They have fought few times recently and Serral outclassed TY both times. Rogue: Bit better version of Dark in ZvZ, but still would consider Raynor being bigger threat than Rogue tbh. Zest: Have fought few times(?). No match for Serral. KeeN: Havent seen him play, so its non-conclusive. However he propably isnt Maru/TY-caliber, so propably would get stomped as others. Trap: Again, they fought, Serral stomped. Ragnarok: He is Korean zerg. So nope. Maru: Well this is the only one debatable imo. But comparing the current form of them, at this moment I would give Serral around 80% chance to win. Maru is nowhere near his peak and Serral is a monster. And in addition for example Neeb made it to top-4 in GSL. Look how Serral treats him nowadays. GSL Season 2 top-8 were: Classic, soO, Trap, Innovation, Hurricane, Parting, herO, Dark. And from those, only Innovation can challenge Serral, when he has his lategame in form. And even then I think Serral would be a favorite. Or if you disagree, who of those could realistically beat Serral ? So, all-in-all, we can safely conclude that Serral has a high chance to win GSL if he participated. Even Koreans fear and dont want to face him anymore. Rogue has 2 consecutive World Championship titles. Serral has 1 WC title. Rogue has 4 big tournaments win in a row, Serral has 3 big tournament wins. Not in a row. Yes, Serral is better in being consistent over the last 2 years, Rogue had much better and higher peak, even more impressive. If some insist on naming Serral banjo and other fancy titles, we have to add them to all the "faceless" Koreans we skipped before. e.g. Innovation, Maru, Mvp, Life(muhehehe ), Rogue, sOs(3 WC titles), ByuN(another insane peak)...It's not as easy as it sounds, is it? Also the discussion was started by some post, read it. It's in the quote. That should solve the mistery of HSC. Edit> It would be quite funny to see Life named bonjwa just to remove this title for his crime Oh boy(by the BW standards he was the closest to this title because of1) Starleague wins(Serral has none) 2) KeSPA era Korean elitists being evil again(and please don't use Artosis banjo naming, somebody else arleady pointed out in the previous threads he's not exactly saving them for the top players and he's using the title multiple times a year) ) | ||
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Noa Greenini
265 Posts
[QUOTE]On September 09 2019 17:30 Noa Greenini wrote: [QUOTE]On September 09 2019 16:58 deacon.frost wrote: [QUOTE]On September 09 2019 16:25 Noa Greenini wrote: [QUOTE]On September 09 2019 16:09 deacon.frost wrote: [QUOTE]On September 09 2019 15:23 Xitah wrote: [QUOTE]On September 09 2019 14:48 Charoisaur wrote: Rogue dominated weekenders harder than Serral (He won more non-region-locked, non-invite-only weekenders in a row than Serral has in his entire career) and was unable to win a GSL. Serral may be able to win a GSL but he also may not be able to win a GSL, we don't know.[/QUOTE] It's not true that "Rogue dominated weekeners harder". Serral: Serral Rogue: RogueYou are adding sufficiently many quantifiers (1) winning (2) non-region-locked (3) non-invite-only (4) in a row to make a claim. That's definitely subjective. Ignore all the "non-region-locked" events if you want. Serral's results are more impressive than Rogue. But then again, the point is not that Serral in BONJWA[ or whatever. The point is that Serral is capable of winning a GSL, so participating in GSL is no longer such an interesting question. Here's a question, where do you think Serral would get eliminated in a GSL? R32 and R16 are almost like a weekener where you have to prepare for 3 people, so he's highly favored to make it to the play offs. Now, take the current playoffs and replace Dark with Serral. I would say he and Maru will be the top candidates to win. Then let him participate 3 times in GSL per year and he can win one. It's no longer a mystery. Edit: Also, nobody claimed that "WCS is so hard to win" so that point is entirely strawman. [/QUOTE] Rogue won in a row the following: IEM Shanghai GSL ST2 Blizzcon IEM WC Katowice Let's check Serral. GSL vs The World, Blizzcon... uhm, oh, damn, and GSL vs The world. Cool. Edit> Considering many Serral fanboys are saying that Code S is a different form of tournament and that's why Maru is so bad at weekenders(lulz), then we have to accept the fact this goes both ways. Since Code S is a different form of tournament and Serral has never shown anything to make us believe he could win. He's not capable. (well, I say we can't say as we don't know but since you're so sure I will change this to be so sure either )[/QUOTE]In my opinion Rogue is no where near as impressive as Serral. The consistency in winning and the way he plays and wins... They're just not comparable.[/QUOTE] In the longterm? Sure, no question about that. But Rogue's peak is higher and up to this day better than Serral's whole career. 2 WC titles and 2 another big tournaments. In a row. It's one of the raesons of the stupid patch zerg article.[/QUOTE] In my opinion a peak isn't as impressive as consistency. [/QUOTE] Nobody was talking about that though The question was who dominated weekenders harder, Rogue or Serral So, uhm, yeah Well then Serral who has been dominating in weekenders consistently for so long wins hands down vs Rogue... So, uhm, yeah just my opinion | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On September 09 2019 18:17 Harris1st wrote: Without checking, he placed top 4 in all of them I guess? And who won more than him? Charoisaur keeps including IEM Katowice 2018 and WESG 2017, both played after Serral's first WCS title but before he demonstrated he could reach finals in tournaments with koreans, and excluding HSC XVIII(it's a Premier, deal with it). After that, Serral is 4/7 in international events he plays(not considering his HSC XIX title, a Major due to its reduced prize pool); in the same timespan, Serral won 5/7 WCS tournaments. Serral's worst result was a top 8 at IEM Katowice 2019, but I won't stop underlying that, after his ascesion, he only lost to the eventual winner; the internationl tournaments Serral lost went to soO, Inno and Stats(Rogue and Maru won the ones played in early 2018), while Reynor won both the WCS events in which he defeated Serral. Edit: GSL Super Tournament II 2017 was a korean tournament, Rogue won three international titles in his whole career compared to Serral's four; that's korean elitists fooling themselves, not being evil. If you count consecutive Premier tournaments, Rogue won two in a row compared to Serral's six; if you extend this to weekenders, Rogue won four compared to the said six. If you want to take a look at peak, Serral won 6/6 in six months while Rogue won 4/7 in eight months; if you take into consideration consecutive international weekenders, Rogue and Serral are tied at three each. Rogue has a single point over Serral: he won one more World Championship than Serral(we can discuss if IEM Shanghai+Katowice is a better achievement than GSL vs The World+HSC). | ||
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