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Who cares about results or form? No terran in the world today comes close to flair and genius that is gumiho's play.
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On April 23 2018 03:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland What about the word "pinnacle" do you not understand? Maru's the top and INno isn't even halfway up the peak.
If you think Harstem is as close to the pinnacle of toss as Inno is to terran then I don't know what to say. Harstem is a mid tier foreign protoss. Inno is the second best korean terran.
No mid-tier foreign zerg or terran should take out a top 2 korean terran (or zerg/protoss for that matter).
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On April 23 2018 03:25 Latr02 wrote:
Anyone remember whose trash talk did Inno respond to when he said "if you aren't good at the game, you might as well be good at running your mouth"? Also rip stream yikes
I think it was the german team.
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On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that.
Harstem wasn't outplaying him, only hanging on to his lead. And hasn't SpeCial done exactly that earlier this tournament (feel free and quibble about SpeCial being a bit better than Harstem)?
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On April 23 2018 03:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland What about the word "pinnacle" do you not understand? Maru's the top and INno isn't even halfway up the peak.
be careful with using the word "pinnacle" around here 
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On April 23 2018 03:28 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:25 Latr02 wrote:
Anyone remember whose trash talk did Inno respond to when he said "if you aren't good at the game, you might as well be good at running your mouth"? Also rip stream yikes I think it was the german team.
What did the German team initially say?
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Meh, too much balance whine around here. Blizzard has already weighed in on it so there's no point in all this bickering.
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On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that.
Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour.
But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon.
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I wonder when the behind the scenes thing will come out. GG to all today!
EDIT: Balance discussions aside, this was a great day to be a foreigner. Seeing uthermal take down MMA and soO, and harstem taking down Inno...FeelsGoodMan.
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On April 23 2018 03:29 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:28 DBooN wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Latr02 wrote:
Anyone remember whose trash talk did Inno respond to when he said "if you aren't good at the game, you might as well be good at running your mouth"? Also rip stream yikes I think it was the german team. What did the German team initially say?
I don't know, are there no vods of the videos for last year?
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On April 23 2018 03:30 DBooN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:29 Bagration wrote:On April 23 2018 03:28 DBooN wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Latr02 wrote:
Anyone remember whose trash talk did Inno respond to when he said "if you aren't good at the game, you might as well be good at running your mouth"? Also rip stream yikes I think it was the german team. What did the German team initially say? I don't know, are there no vods of the videos for last year?
They said that "We had Korean BBQ (they were in a restaurant) and it's time for dessert."
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On April 23 2018 03:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem wasn't outplaying him, only hanging on to his lead. And hasn't SpeCial done exactly that earlier this tournament (feel free and quibble about SpeCial being a bit better than Harstem)?
Not only is Special much better but he also basically won with his early game aggression where it's totally possible to upset a better player in all matchups. Only if both players reach the mid-late game on relatively even terms the better player usually dominates the game.
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On April 23 2018 03:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem wasn't outplaying him, only hanging on to his lead. And hasn't SpeCial done exactly that earlier this tournament (feel free and quibble about SpeCial being a bit better than Harstem)?
SpeCial is the best foreign terran and a regular practice partner for the elite koreans. Bit different. And even then he didn't beat Inno in the macro department. He won due to massive advantages from early on in the games. Hell I think Inno's macro was better than SpeCial's that series, it just didn't matter in the end.
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On April 23 2018 03:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem wasn't outplaying him, only hanging on to his lead. And hasn't SpeCial done exactly that earlier this tournament (feel free and quibble about SpeCial being a bit better than Harstem)? Not only is Special much better but he also basically won with his early game aggression where it's totally possible to upset a better player in all matchups. Only if both players reach the mid-late game on relatively even terms the better player usually dominates the game.
Oh yeah didn't INnoVatioN get bopped by DIMAGA while trying regular bio pushes a few months back?
On April 23 2018 03:31 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem wasn't outplaying him, only hanging on to his lead. And hasn't SpeCial done exactly that earlier this tournament (feel free and quibble about SpeCial being a bit better than Harstem)? SpeCial is the best foreign terran and a regular practice partner for the elite koreans. Bit different. And even then he didn't beat Inno in the macro department. He won due to massive advantages from early on in the games. Hell I think Inno's macro was better than SpeCial's that series, it just didn't matter in the end.
Harstem also won due to significant advantages from early in the game?
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On April 23 2018 03:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem wasn't outplaying him, only hanging on to his lead. And hasn't SpeCial done exactly that earlier this tournament (feel free and quibble about SpeCial being a bit better than Harstem)? Not only is Special much better but he also basically won with his early game aggression where it's totally possible to upset a better player in all matchups. Only if both players reach the mid-late game on relatively even terms the better player usually dominates the game.
We saw just how much better SpeCial is a few hours ago, didn't we? Harstem basically won with his early game defense, that's just as valid as winning with early game aggression.
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On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon.
You mean the game where Kelazhur defended the Ravager allin and won with the counterattack?
Surely outplayed in a macro game.
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On April 23 2018 03:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:28 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem wasn't outplaying him, only hanging on to his lead. And hasn't SpeCial done exactly that earlier this tournament (feel free and quibble about SpeCial being a bit better than Harstem)? Not only is Special much better but he also basically won with his early game aggression where it's totally possible to upset a better player in all matchups. Only if both players reach the mid-late game on relatively even terms the better player usually dominates the game.
I'd say HARSTEN micro's better then Major tho
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On April 23 2018 03:27 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland What about the word "pinnacle" do you not understand? Maru's the top and INno isn't even halfway up the peak. If you think Harstem is as close to the pinnacle of toss as Inno is to terran then I don't know what to say. Harstem is a mid tier foreign protoss. Inno is the second best korean terran. No mid-tier foreign zerg or terran should take out a top 2 korean terran (or zerg/protoss for that matter).
You're making a lot of baseless greatly exxagerated statements.
At the highest level (As in GM or higher), anyone can take 1 game off of anyone. That is exactly why Starcraft tournaments use Bo3-Bo7 formats.
Harstem took one game off of Inno because Inno's aggressive risky opener flopped on its face AND he refused to make Vikings to counter the army that Harstem had and it was still close.
Innovation then took the next game. If this was any normal SC2 tournament these 2 would have to play another game and Inno would be greatly favored to win that one too.
One game in a Bo1 team league format is never going to be enough to show that there is an imbalance in the match up that needs to be patched, especially when Innovation made plenty of mistakes in the game in question.
Your type of argument just makes THE ENTIRETY of the TvP complaints seem like baseless whining because you're making huge claims with bad really bad logic to back it up. You dont even point out anything specific in the match the way that I do, you just are arguing that Harstem can never take a game off of Innovation in a balanced game and that's simply not true.
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On April 23 2018 03:30 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:30 DBooN wrote:On April 23 2018 03:29 Bagration wrote:On April 23 2018 03:28 DBooN wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Latr02 wrote:
Anyone remember whose trash talk did Inno respond to when he said "if you aren't good at the game, you might as well be good at running your mouth"? Also rip stream yikes I think it was the german team. What did the German team initially say? I don't know, are there no vods of the videos for last year? They said that "We had Korean BBQ (they were in a restaurant) and it's time for dessert."
I think that "hey Finland...you are finished" eclipsed any trash talk one liner in NW history.
It sucked MMA choked on the Netherlands, but what could he have said, really? "Hey, Netherlands...the only place you could beat us is neverland?"
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France12956 Posts
KR holds
Amazing event live!
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EPT
