What the heck are we even talking about again? Harstem not top foreigner? He's had his up and downs, but he has been a top 5 foreign Protoss basically for years, being in the top 2 or 3 spot plenty of times.

mierin

United States4943 Posts

April 22 2018 21:19 GMT

#984

On April 23 2018 04:00 ZigguratOfUr wrote:

Show nested quote +

On April 23 2018 03:59 mierin wrote:

On April 23 2018 03:49 Fango wrote:

On April 23 2018 03:44 pvsnp wrote:

On April 23 2018 03:42 Fango wrote:

On April 23 2018 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:

On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:

On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:

On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:

On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:
[quote]
At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen.

Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that.

Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour.

But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon.

I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe.

I find it hard to believe how biased as fuck you are to think it should take a top 3 protoss to ever win from that position.

Not necessarily just to win. But the extent to which he did was a bit much.

Methinks you doth protest too much, and since I am apparently a known Terran Whiner™ that should be saying something. The state of PvT is well known by now. Blizzard has already acknowledged it openly as Protoss-favored. Whining here serves no purpose except annoying people.

Tbh I'm more than willing to annoy anyone who thinks PvT isn't disgustingly one-sided. But I'm probably going too far because this shit is triggering every time I see it. So I'll apologise for that

As for blizz, I don't even know what they're doing. I wouldn't suprise me if there isn't a patch for a while

Too bad Korea didn't get $o$, classic, and hero voted in to their team. They wouldn't have lost a game.

The better question would be if sOs would have won a game.

This might be an example of me failing to understand internet speak, but i was being 100% sarcastic

Boggyb

2855 Posts

April 22 2018 21:31 GMT

#985

On April 23 2018 06:01 DBooN wrote:

Show nested quote +

He won kespa cup.

He was also part of championship winning teams in team leagues.

juicyjames

United States3815 Posts

April 23 2018 02:03 GMT

#986

Any recommended matches?

brickrd

United States4894 Posts

April 23 2018 03:55 GMT

#987

another tournament thread aftermath where people debate whether players with fewer accomplishments are "allowed" to beat players with more accomplishments/"better macro", amazing

i feel like people overlook the fact that at elite levels having "good macro" is the exact same thing as multitasking, lol. people just throw around the word "macro" like it's some kind of overall player quality score

xelnaga_empire

627 Posts

April 23 2018 04:19 GMT

#988

Great tournament! A big kudos for the organizers taking the time to organize this and putting up a nice prize pool!

xelnaga_empire

627 Posts

April 23 2018 04:33 GMT

#989

On April 23 2018 03:27 Fango wrote:
If you think Harstem is as close to the pinnacle of toss as Inno is to terran then I don't know what to say. Harstem is a mid tier foreign protoss. Inno is the second best korean terran.

No mid-tier foreign zerg or terran should take out a top 2 korean terran (or zerg/protoss for that matter).

I agree. Innovation is arguably the best SC2 player ever and last year, he was the best Terran player against Protoss.

Suddenly, this year, he is horrible against Protoss. Something changed this year and I don't think it's Innovation. At least Blizzard recognizes TvsP favors Protoss now.

BTW, in the last game, Innovation rushed Harstem before Harstem got to 3 bases. As Demuslim has said, once Protoss gets to 3 bases in a straight up game, Terran is at disadvantage. In the last game, Innovation did to Harstem what Maru did to Stats - don't play Protoss in a straight up game and rush/cheese Protoss before they get to 3 bases.

orvinreyes

577 Posts

April 23 2018 06:34 GMT

#990

On April 23 2018 13:33 xelnaga_empire wrote:

Show nested quote +

Terran needs something for TvP lategame.... BC and Thor buffs? Raven spells? They can't just allow the TvP meta to get stuck at "kill the protoss before third!"

Mun_Su

France2063 Posts

April 23 2018 06:51 GMT

#991

On April 23 2018 11:03 juicyjames wrote:
Any recommended matches?

Harstem vs Cham, Harstem hold like a boss a mass roach attack (even if zergs will be salty about warp prism micro xD)

soO vs Zhugeliang gave us the hope that Zhuge will beat soO but then he missmicroed into ravager bills, so idk

INnovation's first 4 games against Netherlands were really "clean" from his part, but maybe not enough back and fourth.

His loss against harstem was good to see as he really tried his to hold and come back but Harstem didnt' wen full foreigner and controlled the pace of the game.

6th game was quite a stomp.

Charoisaur

Germany16079 Posts

April 23 2018 07:10 GMT

#992

On April 23 2018 06:14 Thax wrote:
What the heck are we even talking about again? Harstem not top foreigner? He's had his up and downs, but he has been a top 5 foreign Protoss basically for years, being in the top 2 or 3 spot plenty of times.

To me a top foreigner is someone who regularly makes deep runs in WCS tournaments so basically Serral, Elazer, Nerchio, Snute, Neeb, Showtime and Special. Scarlett too for her performance at Pyeongchang and GSL.
Between them and the rest of the foreigners there's a significant gap.

Poopi

France12955 Posts

April 23 2018 07:57 GMT

#993

It becomes clear that there is a problem in the matchup because INno couldn’t comeback against Harstem in a macro game and most terrans try to do 2 bases pushes / allin even against inferior competition.

As for games recommended, I’d say all INno games except against Optimus, Harstem vs Cham, Harstem vs special, soO vs Serral (g2 and g4)

Mun_Su

France2063 Posts

April 23 2018 08:23 GMT

#994

On April 23 2018 16:57 Poopi wrote:
It becomes clear that there is a problem in the matchup because INno couldn’t comeback against Harstem in a macro game and most terrans try to do 2 bases pushes / allin even against inferior competition.

As for games recommended, I’d say all INno games except against Optimus, Harstem vs Cham, Harstem vs special, soO vs Serral (g2 and g4)

I forgot to say SoO vs Srral, they were really good to watch

Mun_Su

France2063 Posts

April 23 2018 08:28 GMT

#995

On April 23 2018 16:10 Charoisaur wrote:

Show nested quote +

And yet Harstem has won 2 premier tournaments (with wins against Snute, Scarlett so top for) while Scarlett and Showtime only won one and Special never won. Harstem isn't always at his best, and don't participate in all tournament, but i think he often reach a top foreigner level, which is the case these past weeks.

imre

France9263 Posts

April 24 2018 05:47 GMT

#996

On April 23 2018 05:30 Vanadiel wrote:
Congrats to everyone there, it was a fun day !

Now the real challenge begin though, time to out-drink Ogaming crew.

So how did you fare ? Yesterday was a really hard day ...

imre

France9263 Posts

April 24 2018 05:48 GMT

#997

On April 23 2018 11:03 juicyjames wrote:
Any recommended matches?

uThermal vs Special
soO vs Serral twice
Inno vs Harstem game 2

yangluphil

318 Posts

April 24 2018 06:22 GMT

#998

Looking at this thread you would think Harstem will never get credit from half the fans even when he does play at a high level (which he's capable of). It would all go down as being carried by his race.

Harstem took down Inno really reminds me of Special taking down Stats and TY at blizzcon. A very good but never the best foreigner (like Harstem, very inconsistent but can peak at a high level) took down top koreans. I don't remember back then people taking it as an opportunity to throw out their agendas. Give me a break.