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On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon.
I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe.
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On April 23 2018 03:33 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:30 pvsnp wrote:On April 23 2018 03:30 DBooN wrote:On April 23 2018 03:29 Bagration wrote:On April 23 2018 03:28 DBooN wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Latr02 wrote:
Anyone remember whose trash talk did Inno respond to when he said "if you aren't good at the game, you might as well be good at running your mouth"? Also rip stream yikes I think it was the german team. What did the German team initially say? I don't know, are there no vods of the videos for last year? They said that "We had Korean BBQ (they were in a restaurant) and it's time for dessert." I think that "hey Finland...you are finished" eclipsed any trash talk one liner in NW history. It sucked MMA choked on the Netherlands, but what could he have said, really? "Hey, Netherlands...the only place you could beat us is neverland?"
"prepare to get kicked in the nether region"
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On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon. I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe.
Yeah I mean let's just ignore the fact that Harstem played the best out of any foreigner in NationWars because he doesn't usually play this well.
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On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon. I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe.
I find it hard to believe how biased as fuck you are to think it should take a top 3 protoss to ever win from that position.
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On April 23 2018 03:36 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:33 mierin wrote:On April 23 2018 03:30 pvsnp wrote:On April 23 2018 03:30 DBooN wrote:On April 23 2018 03:29 Bagration wrote:On April 23 2018 03:28 DBooN wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Latr02 wrote:
Anyone remember whose trash talk did Inno respond to when he said "if you aren't good at the game, you might as well be good at running your mouth"? Also rip stream yikes I think it was the german team. What did the German team initially say? I don't know, are there no vods of the videos for last year? They said that "We had Korean BBQ (they were in a restaurant) and it's time for dessert." I think that "hey Finland...you are finished" eclipsed any trash talk one liner in NW history. It sucked MMA choked on the Netherlands, but what could he have said, really? "Hey, Netherlands...the only place you could beat us is neverland?" "prepare to get kicked in the nether region"
If you're looking for puns I would go with "Netherlame" or something. Puns aren't my strong suit though. In any case, the results speak for themselves.
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On April 23 2018 03:33 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:27 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:22 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland What about the word "pinnacle" do you not understand? Maru's the top and INno isn't even halfway up the peak. If you think Harstem is as close to the pinnacle of toss as Inno is to terran then I don't know what to say. Harstem is a mid tier foreign protoss. Inno is the second best korean terran. No mid-tier foreign zerg or terran should take out a top 2 korean terran (or zerg/protoss for that matter). You're making a lot of baseless greatly exxagerated statements. At the highest level (As in GM or higher), anyone can take 1 game off of anyone. That is exactly why Starcraft tournaments use Bo3-Bo7 formats. Harstem took one game off of Inno because Inno's aggressive risky opener flopped on its face AND he refused to make Vikings to counter the army that Harstem had and it was still close. Innovation then took the next game. If this was any normal SC2 tournament these 2 would have to play another game and Inno would be greatly favored to win that one too. One game in a Bo1 team league format is never going to be enough to show that there is an imbalance in the match up that needs to be patched, especially when Innovation made plenty of mistakes in the game in question. Your type of argument just makes THE ENTIRETY of the TvP complaints seem like baseless whining because you're making huge claims with bad really bad logic to back it up. You dont even point out anything specific in the match the way that I do, you just are arguing that Harstem can never take a game off of Innovation in a balanced game and that's simply not true.
The reasons that anyone can take a map of anyone arre due to the natural randomness of sc2 in terms of build orders, scouting, straight luck etc. Generally you don't outmacro a player that's better than you by a large margin.
And I'm not making balance calls based on just this game. One game doesn't mean much if anything. My opinion of TvP has been the same since 4.0, this is just a very small addition.
"you just are arguing that Harstem can never take a game off of Innovation in a balanced game and that's simply not true". No I'm not. I said that he shouldn't really be outmacro'ing Inno and winning later in the game to the extent that he did. You don't see that with lower tier terrans or zergs against elite players.
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On April 23 2018 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon. I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe. I find it hard to believe how biased as fuck you are to think it should take a top 3 protoss to ever win from that position.
Not necessarily just to win. But the extent to which he did was a bit much.
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On April 23 2018 03:42 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]
Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon. I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe. I find it hard to believe how biased as fuck you are to think it should take a top 3 protoss to ever win from that position. Not necessarily just to win. But the extent to which he did was a bit much.
Methinks you doth protest too much, and since I am apparently a known Terran Whiner™ that should be saying something. The state of PvT is well known by now. Blizzard has already acknowledged it openly as Protoss-favored. Whining here serves no purpose except annoying people. And there are worse PvTs than this to whine about if you insist on it.
Harstem didn't play amazingly but he played well enough to conserve his lead and let his double forge + colossus army transition into tempests before vikings were out. Maybe if PvT was perfectly balanced, Inno could've won, but you have to remember that Inno is never at his strongest overseas, nor when playing from behind.
Imo he played better (relative to his form) today than he did last year, when Inno was basically considered the best player in the world but still barely won in TvZ, his best matchup by far.
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Harstem is top 2 foreign toss. Played well. Innovation played better.
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On April 23 2018 03:44 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:42 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:
[quote]
To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon. I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe. I find it hard to believe how biased as fuck you are to think it should take a top 3 protoss to ever win from that position. Not necessarily just to win. But the extent to which he did was a bit much. Methinks you doth protest too much, and since I am apparently a known Terran Whiner™ that should be saying something. The state of PvT is well known by now. Blizzard has already acknowledged it openly as Protoss-favored. Whining here serves no purpose except annoying people.
Tbh I'm more than willing to annoy anyone who thinks PvT isn't disgustingly one-sided. But I'm probably going too far because this shit is triggering every time I see it. So I'll apologise for that
As for blizz, I don't even know what they're doing. I wouldn't suprise me if there isn't a patch for a while
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On April 23 2018 03:49 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:44 pvsnp wrote:On April 23 2018 03:42 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]
Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months.
Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon. I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe. I find it hard to believe how biased as fuck you are to think it should take a top 3 protoss to ever win from that position. Not necessarily just to win. But the extent to which he did was a bit much. Methinks you doth protest too much, and since I am apparently a known Terran Whiner™ that should be saying something. The state of PvT is well known by now. Blizzard has already acknowledged it openly as Protoss-favored. Whining here serves no purpose except annoying people. Tbh I'm more than willing to annoy anyone who thinks PvT isn't disgustingly one-sided. But I'm probably going too far because this shit is triggering every time I see it. So I'll apologise for that As for blizz, I don't even know what they're doing. I wouldn't suprise me if there isn't a patch for a while
I would bet on them dropping a patch between Ro32 and Ro16, judging by this line:
"The upcoming GSL group stages and WCS qualifier results will be valuable for gauging where the current meta is and what sort of further balance changes are necessary."
Between group stages is also a frequent balance-adjustment window in any case, and it would take a supremely imbalanced matchup to prevent the big favorites from making it through the Ro32.
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honestly if you'd ask anyone in 2014 if harstem would still be relevant, i think they would laugh. he's come a long way.
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On April 23 2018 03:49 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:44 pvsnp wrote:On April 23 2018 03:42 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]
Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months.
Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon. I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe. I find it hard to believe how biased as fuck you are to think it should take a top 3 protoss to ever win from that position. Not necessarily just to win. But the extent to which he did was a bit much. Methinks you doth protest too much, and since I am apparently a known Terran Whiner™ that should be saying something. The state of PvT is well known by now. Blizzard has already acknowledged it openly as Protoss-favored. Whining here serves no purpose except annoying people. Tbh I'm more than willing to annoy anyone who thinks PvT isn't disgustingly one-sided. But I'm probably going too far because this shit is triggering every time I see it. So I'll apologise for that As for blizz, I don't even know what they're doing. I wouldn't suprise me if there isn't a patch for a while
Too bad Korea didn't get $o$, classic, and hero voted in to their team. They wouldn't have lost a game.
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On April 23 2018 03:59 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:49 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:44 pvsnp wrote:On April 23 2018 03:42 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:
[quote]
He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon. I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe. I find it hard to believe how biased as fuck you are to think it should take a top 3 protoss to ever win from that position. Not necessarily just to win. But the extent to which he did was a bit much. Methinks you doth protest too much, and since I am apparently a known Terran Whiner™ that should be saying something. The state of PvT is well known by now. Blizzard has already acknowledged it openly as Protoss-favored. Whining here serves no purpose except annoying people. Tbh I'm more than willing to annoy anyone who thinks PvT isn't disgustingly one-sided. But I'm probably going too far because this shit is triggering every time I see it. So I'll apologise for that As for blizz, I don't even know what they're doing. I wouldn't suprise me if there isn't a patch for a while Too bad Korea didn't get $o$, classic, and hero voted in to their team. They wouldn't have lost a game.
The better question would be if sOs would have won a game.
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On April 23 2018 04:00 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:59 mierin wrote:On April 23 2018 03:49 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:44 pvsnp wrote:On April 23 2018 03:42 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:
[quote]
At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon. I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe. I find it hard to believe how biased as fuck you are to think it should take a top 3 protoss to ever win from that position. Not necessarily just to win. But the extent to which he did was a bit much. Methinks you doth protest too much, and since I am apparently a known Terran Whiner™ that should be saying something. The state of PvT is well known by now. Blizzard has already acknowledged it openly as Protoss-favored. Whining here serves no purpose except annoying people. Tbh I'm more than willing to annoy anyone who thinks PvT isn't disgustingly one-sided. But I'm probably going too far because this shit is triggering every time I see it. So I'll apologise for that As for blizz, I don't even know what they're doing. I wouldn't suprise me if there isn't a patch for a while Too bad Korea didn't get $o$, classic, and hero voted in to their team. They wouldn't have lost a game. The better question would be if sOs would have won a game.
If he can get the money without winning, he doesn't have to try so it's ok.
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On April 23 2018 03:46 Mun_Su wrote:
Harstem is top 2 foreign toss. Played well. Innovation played better.
Top 3 I'd say, but he really played well in NationWars!
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On April 23 2018 04:00 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:59 mierin wrote:On April 23 2018 03:49 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:44 pvsnp wrote:On April 23 2018 03:42 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:37 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:
[quote]
At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon. I didn't see the games between uthermal and dark/classic. Was he outmacro'ing them? If he was that's impressive, but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't. Inno's macro should be too much for him unless he's suddenly playing like a top 3 protoss. Which I find hard to believe. I find it hard to believe how biased as fuck you are to think it should take a top 3 protoss to ever win from that position. Not necessarily just to win. But the extent to which he did was a bit much. Methinks you doth protest too much, and since I am apparently a known Terran Whiner™ that should be saying something. The state of PvT is well known by now. Blizzard has already acknowledged it openly as Protoss-favored. Whining here serves no purpose except annoying people. Tbh I'm more than willing to annoy anyone who thinks PvT isn't disgustingly one-sided. But I'm probably going too far because this shit is triggering every time I see it. So I'll apologise for that As for blizz, I don't even know what they're doing. I wouldn't suprise me if there isn't a patch for a while Too bad Korea didn't get $o$, classic, and hero voted in to their team. They wouldn't have lost a game. The better question would be if sOs would have won a game.
He accomplished the dreaming of winning Nationwars without winning a game last year. I'm sure this year he could manage to stretch that feat from just the offline portion to the entire tournament. If he had, next year would have been him winning without even having to play a game.
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On April 23 2018 03:35 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2018 03:30 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:25 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:21 Elentos wrote:On April 23 2018 03:18 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:15 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:12 Fango wrote:On April 23 2018 03:10 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On April 23 2018 03:07 gingerfluffmuff wrote:
Terrans need something, Inno shouldnt lose to Harstem. Quit your whining. INno lost because he opened up with a proxy liberators and aggro at the third that got held off with minimal damage. To be honest, in a macro game like that. Inno should do a lot better against Harstem, even if his build didn't work. Harstem is not the pinnicle of protoss. Arguably INno hasn't been the pinnacle of terran either over the past few months. Regardless if you're behind, you have to make something happen to come back. INno chose to sit back and macro, and Harstem didn't make any big enough mistakes for INno to come back. He's probably the second best terran in the world. Harstem isn't even an elite protoss in foreignerland At most he's 2nd best because there's a lack of evidence that he isn't, not because he's clearly better than TY or GuMiho. His form is questionable. Let's not pretend like him getting outplayed by Harstem should never, ever happen. Inno has done better than TY and gumiho recently I think. And honestly in a macro game with many bases taken, I don't think harstem should be outplaying him that hard. You'd never find a mid tier foreign terran or zerg doing that. Harstem was the best player on his team this NationWars and that's with uThermal being the 2nd best foreign Terran and able to take maps against Dark and Classic at WESG or beating Inno at Katowice. It doesn't really matter if he's generally mid-tier, Harstem played a strong tournament. And between Gumi, INno and TY, there's so few meaningful results that picking one of them is a pointless endeavour. But maybe I imagined Kelazhur beating Dark at Blizzcon. but still uthermal is one of the best foreigners out there. Harstem isn't.
wat
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Remember when Innovation beat Leenock like 11 games to none that time
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soO: "So this is what a winner's trophy looks like...."
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EPT
