Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream.
I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive.
I remember the game specifically because it was super passive until that fight and Zest basically just amoved to win off even positions.
He is just Theorycrafting... He is right that the supreme late game can be Terran favored because of Raven ghost... In theory. But the fact is that maybe 1/200 games Terran is able to get to that stage. A) Terran cant afford to be passive and macro. Toss has so many early game harass options and better early eco that terran has to be super active on the map B) Toss simply wont allow it to get to that stage. If Terran does enough early damage protoss just dies in the midgame. If Terran does no damage or suffers some from protoss BS, terran just dies straight away, or in the midgame they try a desperation push and still die.
PvT in a nutshell, unfortunately... :/
Dude, I've literally seen it. There's no theorycrafting about it.
Yes, but you have to watch ladder streams and some shitty online tournaments to actually see any of those games, if even that is true I have no way to confirm because I have no time to watch all of that. Why are we not seeing them in real relevant tournaments though? If that is the meta? But Okay whatever, live in your world I don't really care that much
Did you see the GSL finals?
There's no late game in the final?
Ah wait, I meant Maru vs Stats at IEM, not GSL finals
Okay well, that is the 1 example. As I said, 1/200 relevant games maybe? Come on, be real :D
Keen vs Zest in Olimoleague I think 2 days ago? I believe I saw Gumiho do it against Protoss as well recently. Also watch streams. It's a rather new thing, so it only makes sense it's not being played regularly in offline tournaments yet. These things take time to spread and be figured out. Who knows, maybe it isn't as good as it looks - it looks really good though every time I see it.
Hey, I actually saw the Keen vs Zest games Zest is just bad, he gifted Keen the wins with sloppy play. we cant take that as relevant examples. That is why I am saying that backing up your claims with C-class tournaments and irrelevant ladder games where Parting is trying to have some fun is just ridiculous and disrespectful towards the game
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are
All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your side.
I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking
Flawed in that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that collectively points towards the same conclusion?
Taken individually, all the pieces could be coincidence. Taken together, the probability that all the Terrans got worse, and decided to cheese, and avoided macro games all at the same time seems like more than a coincidence.
You literally pointed just to Maru, are you actually insane?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are
All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your side.
I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking
Flawed in that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that collectively points towards the same conclusion?
Taken individually, all the pieces could be coincidence. Taken together, the probability that all the Terrans got worse, and decided to cheese, and avoided macro games all at the same time seems like more than a coincidence.
You literally pointed just to Maru, are you actually insane?
Is Maru not the best example of a top Terran right now?
All the others have kinda dropped off, which was (part of) my point.....
I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive.
I remember the game specifically because it was super passive until that fight and Zest basically just amoved to win off even positions.
He is just Theorycrafting... He is right that the supreme late game can be Terran favored because of Raven ghost... In theory. But the fact is that maybe 1/200 games Terran is able to get to that stage. A) Terran cant afford to be passive and macro. Toss has so many early game harass options and better early eco that terran has to be super active on the map B) Toss simply wont allow it to get to that stage. If Terran does enough early damage protoss just dies in the midgame. If Terran does no damage or suffers some from protoss BS, terran just dies straight away, or in the midgame they try a desperation push and still die.
PvT in a nutshell, unfortunately... :/
Dude, I've literally seen it. There's no theorycrafting about it.
Yes, but you have to watch ladder streams and some shitty online tournaments to actually see any of those games, if even that is true I have no way to confirm because I have no time to watch all of that. Why are we not seeing them in real relevant tournaments though? If that is the meta? But Okay whatever, live in your world I don't really care that much
Did you see the GSL finals?
There's no late game in the final?
Ah wait, I meant Maru vs Stats at IEM, not GSL finals
Okay well, that is the 1 example. As I said, 1/200 relevant games maybe? Come on, be real :D
Keen vs Zest in Olimoleague I think 2 days ago? I believe I saw Gumiho do it against Protoss as well recently. Also watch streams. It's a rather new thing, so it only makes sense it's not being played regularly in offline tournaments yet. These things take time to spread and be figured out. Who knows, maybe it isn't as good as it looks - it looks really good though every time I see it.
Hey, I actually saw the Keen vs Zest games Zest is just bad, he gifted Keen the wins with sloppy play. we cant take that as relevant examples. That is why I am saying that backing up your claims with C-class tournaments and irrelevant ladder games where Parting is trying to have some fun is just ridiculous and disrespectful towards the game
Disrespectful towards the game, lol. Why do I bother?
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are
All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your side.
I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking
Flawed in that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that collectively points towards the same conclusion?
Taken individually, all the pieces could be coincidence. Taken together, the probability that all the Terrans got worse, and decided to cheese, and avoided macro games all at the same time seems like more than a coincidence.
You literally pointed just to Maru, are you actually insane?
Is Maru not the best example of a top Terran right now?
All the others have kinda dropped off, which was (part of) my point.....
Sample size of 1 person proxying buildings in (quite fucking literally) 1 series where he had a week to prepare builds for.
It's also true that Zest has recently beaten aLive, MMA, aLive again, Cure, Cure again, Gumiho, Gumiho again, Byun, Gumiho again, Special, and Bunny. In fact, aside from Keen, he hasn't lost a PvT series since February. All these Terrans more or less around the same level as Keen, and Zest has beaten them all.
I'm guessing that Keen is the outlier here, not the norm.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are
All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your side.
I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking
Flawed in that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that collectively points towards the same conclusion?
Taken individually, all the pieces could be coincidence. Taken together, the probability that all the Terrans got worse, and decided to cheese, and avoided macro games all at the same time seems like more than a coincidence.
You literally pointed just to Maru, are you actually insane?
Is Maru not the best example of a top Terran right now?
All the others have kinda dropped off, which was (part of) my point.....
Sample size of 1 person proxying buildings in (quite fucking literally) 1 series where he had a week to prepare builds for.
ALL THE SUBSTANSIAL EVIDENCE
Maru vs Stats in GSL finals
Maru vs sOs in GSL Ro8
Maru vs sOs at IEM Katowice
Maru vs Dear at IEM Katowice
This is just Maru, mind you, Inno has lost to guys like Nice and Hurricane. Meanwhile we have top Protoss players like Classic and Zest roflstomping Terrans. Not that hard to connect the dots for some reasonable level of certainty.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are
All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your side.
I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking
Flawed in that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that collectively points towards the same conclusion?
Taken individually, all the pieces could be coincidence. Taken together, the probability that all the Terrans got worse, and decided to cheese, and avoided macro games all at the same time seems like more than a coincidence.
You literally pointed just to Maru, are you actually insane?
Is Maru not the best example of a top Terran right now?
All the others have kinda dropped off, which was (part of) my point.....
Sample size of 1 person proxying buildings in (quite fucking literally) 1 series where he had a week to prepare builds for.
My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable.
Ok, I suppose you're just here for the conversational points then, there's no point in talking to somebody who just wants to take cheap shots. I guess I should've taken the hint at:
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are
All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your side.
I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are
All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your side.
I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking
Flawed in that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that collectively points towards the same conclusion?
Taken individually, all the pieces could be coincidence. Taken together, the probability that all the Terrans got worse, and decided to cheese, and avoided macro games all at the same time seems like more than a coincidence.
You literally pointed just to Maru, are you actually insane?
Is Maru not the best example of a top Terran right now?
All the others have kinda dropped off, which was (part of) my point.....
Sample size of 1 person proxying buildings in (quite fucking literally) 1 series where he had a week to prepare builds for.
ALL THE SUBSTANSIAL EVIDENCE
Maru vs Stats in GSL finals
Maru vs sOs in GSL Ro8
Maru vs sOs at IEM Katowice
Maru vs Dear at IEM Katowice
This is just Maru, mind you, Inno has lost to guys like Nice and Hurricane. Meanwhile we have top Protoss players like Classic and Zest roflstomping Terrans. Not that hard to connect the dots for some reasonable level of certainty.
Yeah. Have you seen recently a KR protoss say something like : "I don't wanna face terrans"
Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream.
I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive.
I remember the game specifically because it was super passive until that fight and Zest basically just amoved to win off even positions.
He is just Theorycrafting... He is right that the supreme late game can be Terran favored because of Raven ghost... In theory. But the fact is that maybe 1/200 games Terran is able to get to that stage. A) Terran cant afford to be passive and macro. Toss has so many early game harass options and better early eco that terran has to be super active on the map B) Toss simply wont allow it to get to that stage. If Terran does enough early damage protoss just dies in the midgame. If Terran does no damage or suffers some from protoss BS, terran just dies straight away, or in the midgame they try a desperation push and still die.
PvT in a nutshell, unfortunately... :/
Dude, I've literally seen it. There's no theorycrafting about it.
Yes, but you have to watch ladder streams and some shitty online tournaments to actually see any of those games, if even that is true I have no way to confirm because I have no time to watch all of that. Why are we not seeing them in real relevant tournaments though? If that is the meta? But Okay whatever, live in your world I don't really care that much
Did you see the GSL finals?
There's no late game in the final?
Ah wait, I meant Maru vs Stats at IEM, not GSL finals
Okay well, that is the 1 example. As I said, 1/200 relevant games maybe? Come on, be real :D
Keen vs Zest in Olimoleague I think 2 days ago? I believe I saw Gumiho do it against Protoss as well recently. Also watch streams. It's a rather new thing, so it only makes sense it's not being played regularly in offline tournaments yet. These things take time to spread and be figured out. Who knows, maybe it isn't as good as it looks - it looks really good though every time I see it.
OR maybe it's a thing you can only try on 2maps (neon violet & black water), if only the toss lets you get there. (eg Gumi go-to-build on Neon violet is a greedy mech to raven...and he does it only on this map)
On April 06 2018 21:41 Ej_ wrote: My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable.
The funniest thing about this is that no-one is balance whining here. We are just stating facts and our disappointment about the matchup and its current meta. And here come you and Olli talking complete non-factual nonsense without any relevant information to rely upon, blindly accusing people of balance whining. That is just sad guys, unable to acknowledge reality and stubbornly kicking around when the problem is just within you is a diagnosis you know?
On April 06 2018 21:41 Ej_ wrote: My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable.
The funniest thing about this is that no-one is balance whining here. We are just stating facts and our disappointment about the matchup and its current meta. And here come you and Olli talking complete non-factual nonsense without any relevant information to rely upon, blindly accusing people of balance whining. That is just sad guys, unable to acknowledge reality and stubbornly kicking around when the problem is just within you is a diagnosis you know?
Calm down, this discussion is long over. I've given you games and series and told you where I saw it, you don't acknowledge that as sufficient evidence and I don't care about your opinion one bit, so let's leave it at that.
On April 06 2018 21:41 Ej_ wrote: My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable.
If protosses were proxying/2baes all-in every game in a MU, then we should ask the meta and balance, yeah. (either the all-in is too strong, or the meta macro too weak, or the 2). When top protosses were 90% going soul train in PvZ, that was for a reason. Macro was weak is the MU.
Still, when they 2-bases-blink-abused every terran on earth thanks to MSC, that was for a reason : a 80%winrate even when opponent saw everything. Then it did get nerfed and toss did fine in macro.
By the same way when we got rid of the 2nd pylon proxy oracles, toss still dominated in macro games. They did it just because it was super strong (even to transition macro )
So does terrans get a huge win ratio with their cheese and all-ins, even when opponent scout it perfectly? Absolutely not. Not even 50%. So maybe it's because current meta macro is unplayable. And for some reason every korean Terran says that.
On April 06 2018 21:41 Ej_ wrote: My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable.
The funniest thing about this is that no-one is balance whining here. We are just stating facts and our disappointment about the matchup and its current meta. And here come you and Olli talking complete non-factual nonsense without any relevant information to rely upon, blindly accusing people of balance whining. That is just sad guys, unable to acknowledge reality and stubbornly kicking around when the problem is just within you is a diagnosis you know?
I haven't called anyone a balance whiner :o, I didnt' say any non-sense, because I didn't evem bring up any games. That post you quoted is literally everything I've said regarding my opinion on the matchup of TvP I really don't know what to say to you, friend.
On April 06 2018 21:41 Ej_ wrote: My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable.
If protosses were proxying/2baes all-in every game in a MU, then we should ask the meta and balance, yeah. (either the all-in is too strong, or the meta macro too weak, or the 2). When top protosses were 90% going soul train in PvZ, that was for a reason. Macro was weak is the MU.
Still, when they 2-bases-blink-abused every terran on earth thanks to MSC, that was for a reason : a 80%winrate even when opponent saw everything. Then it did get nerfed and toss did fine in macro.
By the same way when we got rid of the 2nd pylon proxy oracles, toss still dominated in macro games. They did it just because it was super strong (even to transition macro )
So does terrans get a huge win ratio with their cheese and all-ins, even when opponent scout it perfectly? Absolutely not. Not even 50%. So maybe it's because current meta macro is unplayable. And for some reason every korean Terran says that.
People asked for evidence before, so I'll do it this time too. I want to see where the 80% comes from, and when did "every korean Terran say that" ?
On April 06 2018 21:41 Ej_ wrote: My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable.
If protosses were proxying/2baes all-in every game in a MU, then we should ask the meta and balance, yeah. (either the all-in is too strong, or the meta macro too weak, or the 2). When top protosses were 90% going soul train in PvZ, that was for a reason. Macro was weak is the MU.
Still, when they 2-bases-blink-abused every terran on earth thanks to MSC, that was for a reason : a 80%winrate even when opponent saw everything. Then it did get nerfed and toss did fine in macro.
By the same way when we got rid of the 2nd pylon proxy oracles, toss still dominated in macro games. They did it just because it was super strong (even to transition macro )
So does terrans get a huge win ratio with their cheese and all-ins, even when opponent scout it perfectly? Absolutely not. Not even 50%. So maybe it's because current meta macro is unplayable. And for some reason every korean Terran says that.
People asked for evidence before, so I'll do it this time too. I want to see where the 80% comes from, and when did "every korean Terran say that" ?
Are you kidding ? Blink-aera total PvT dominance is a well know fact in the community, causing the only GSL without terrans. It's like asking evidence earth is not flat lol. It's everywhere in every documentation. Go liquipedia or aligulac. For korean terrans opinions, read interviews and GSL selection. Same, every source point to it.
For "terran strong in late game TvP thanks to raven", i watch a lot of starcraft and only saw it one time (and Stats fucked it up massively this time tbh )
On April 06 2018 21:41 Ej_ wrote: My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable.
If protosses were proxying/2baes all-in every game in a MU, then we should ask the meta and balance, yeah. (either the all-in is too strong, or the meta macro too weak, or the 2). When top protosses were 90% going soul train in PvZ, that was for a reason. Macro was weak is the MU.
Still, when they 2-bases-blink-abused every terran on earth thanks to MSC, that was for a reason : a 80%winrate even when opponent saw everything. Then it did get nerfed and toss did fine in macro.
By the same way when we got rid of the 2nd pylon proxy oracles, toss still dominated in macro games. They did it just because it was super strong (even to transition macro )
So does terrans get a huge win ratio with their cheese and all-ins, even when opponent scout it perfectly? Absolutely not. Not even 50%. So maybe it's because current meta macro is unplayable. And for some reason every korean Terran says that.
People asked for evidence before, so I'll do it this time too. I want to see where the 80% comes from, and when did "every korean Terran say that" ?
Are you kidding ? Blink-aera total PvT dominance is a well know fact in the community, causing the only GSL without terrans. It's like asking evidence earth is not flat lol. It's everywhere in every documentation. Go liquipedia or aligulac. For korean terrans opinions, read interviews and GSL selection. Same, every source point to it.
For "terran strong in late game TvP thanks to raven", i watch a lot of starcraft and only saw it one time (and Stats fucked it up massively this time tbh )
So you don't have a source and just tell me to "look it up". Fine
On April 06 2018 21:41 Ej_ wrote: My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable.
If protosses were proxying/2baes all-in every game in a MU, then we should ask the meta and balance, yeah. (either the all-in is too strong, or the meta macro too weak, or the 2). When top protosses were 90% going soul train in PvZ, that was for a reason. Macro was weak is the MU.
Still, when they 2-bases-blink-abused every terran on earth thanks to MSC, that was for a reason : a 80%winrate even when opponent saw everything. Then it did get nerfed and toss did fine in macro.
By the same way when we got rid of the 2nd pylon proxy oracles, toss still dominated in macro games. They did it just because it was super strong (even to transition macro )
So does terrans get a huge win ratio with their cheese and all-ins, even when opponent scout it perfectly? Absolutely not. Not even 50%. So maybe it's because current meta macro is unplayable. And for some reason every korean Terran says that.
People asked for evidence before, so I'll do it this time too. I want to see where the 80% comes from, and when did "every korean Terran say that" ?
Are you kidding ? Blink-aera total PvT dominance is a well know fact in the community, causing the only GSL without terrans. It's like asking evidence earth is not flat lol. It's everywhere in every documentation. Go liquipedia or aligulac. For korean terrans opinions, read interviews and GSL selection. Same, every source point to it.
For "terran strong in late game TvP thanks to raven", i watch a lot of starcraft and only saw it one time (and Stats fucked it up massively this time tbh )
There's never been a GSL without Terrans, and there's never been an 80% winrate for any race in any matchup. The worst the blink era got was 55% in favor of Protoss. Funny enough we had 57% PvZ for three months until the most recent patch, but we don't talk about that.
EPT
Zest is just bad, he gifted Keen the wins with sloppy play. we cant take that as relevant examples. That is why I am saying that backing up your claims with C-class tournaments and irrelevant ladder games where Parting is trying to have some fun is just ridiculous and disrespectful towards the game
