EPT
GSL Super Tournament
Streams
Format
- Single-elimination bracket.
- Round of 16: Best-of-five.
- Quarterfinals: Best-of-five.
- Semifinals: Best-o:kve.
- Finals: Best-of-seven.
Matches
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/663.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1099.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/977.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/682.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/2106.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/4797.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/951.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/611.jpg)
Results
CSS: FO-nTTaX
Awesomeness: Panda
Banner: GSL
[GSL] Super Tournament Season 1 2018 - Day 2
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments |
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
CSS: FO-nTTaX Awesomeness: Panda Banner: GSL | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
Poll: INnoVation vs Rogue INnoVation Wins (22) Rogue Wins (22) 44 total votes Your vote: INnoVation vs Rogue Poll: Zest vs herO Zest Wins (22) herO Wins (18) 40 total votes Your vote: Zest vs herO Poll: GuMiho vs Solar GuMiho Wins (19) Solar Wins (17) 36 total votes Your vote: GuMiho vs Solar Poll: ByuN vs Stats Stats Wins (23) ByuN Wins (12) 35 total votes Your vote: ByuN vs Stats | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
 Bogus 1-3  Rogue Zest 3-2 herOGuMiho 3-1 SolarByuN 3-2 Stats | ||
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Myrddrael
United Kingdom291 Posts
Bogus 3 - 2 RogueZest 3 - 0 herOGuMiho 3 - 2 SolarByuN 3 - 2 Stats | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13977 Posts
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AUGcodon
Canada536 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
INnoVation 0-3 RogueZest 1-3 herOGuMiho 2-3 SolarStats 3-0 ByuNI voted Inno by accident in the poll. Both Rogue and Stats will crush imo. | ||
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
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Myrddrael
United Kingdom291 Posts
On April 06 2018 05:23 AUGcodon wrote: Kind of surprised ppl voting for inno are we gonna need a re re apotheosis article from mizen? Rogue is known for his ZvP, not his ZvT. If Inno is back in form, which we don't know yet, it can absolutely go either way | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
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Soularion
Canada2764 Posts
INnoVation 1-3 Rogue - ladder says INno will overperform expectations, but his expectations are really low I think, so even overperformance probably won't be enough to beat Rogue. Zest 3-1 herO - I'll give herO a game, but seriously, he seems quite lost right now. If he's able to rebound and make it a good series vs Zest it'll probably push him into the PR - at least for me. GuMiho 1-3 Solar - Don't really know where Gumiho's at, Solar's pretty good. Simple prediction. Stats 3-0 ByuN - I believe in GSL form Stats. | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
INnoVation 3-2 RogueZest 3-1 herOGuMiho 2-3 SolarByuN 2-3 Stats | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:02 pvsnp wrote: That is a hideous hairdo from Artosis wtf is he thinking. He's a middle-aged professional now, not some edgy teenager xD Calm down Wolf | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:02 pvsnp wrote: That is a hideous hairdo from Artosis wtf is he thinking. He's a middle-aged professional now, not some edgy teenager xD I think the "hair people" at GSL determine how that looks, not Artosis. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Tempo-based play, look at that tempo advantage! TEMPO TEMPO TEMPO | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
You look super nervous man, calm down | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/XrqoFFD.png) | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
E : and no fucks given with that 3rd CC | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Caelum93
62 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
"Didn't look like Rogue at all, it looked more like....Losira." | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:24 Olli wrote: This overhype of Rogue is ridiculous. He makes mistakes like anyone else. Yeah seriously, they're acting like Rogue's macro games in ZvT are the best ever or something | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:24 Olli wrote: This overhype of Rogue is ridiculous. He makes mistakes like anyone else. But everyone was telling me Rogue is the the best Zerg vs Terran while Innovation was doing very shit lately. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:25 Durnuu wrote: Yeah seriously, they're acting like Rogue's macro games in ZvT are the best ever or something Rogue isn't as invincible as all the casters hype him up as, but he still plays a mean ZvT when he's in form. Losing so onesidedly was definitely uncharacteristic from him | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:27 Mun_Su wrote: Just in time to see INno. Will be though since Rogue train with Maru. I just caught up the end of the first game, did INno get BO advantage or early advantage ? surprised to not see Swarm hosts He finished his third CC while the third hatch was still building. So yes. | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:28 pvsnp wrote: He finished his third CC while the third hatch was still building. So yes. haha nice just make Raven INno, I heard they're pretty good. | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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ShAd_1337
Germany1042 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:36 pvsnp wrote: Not gonna lie, for a guy that pulled off godly splits earlier against the banes that was a really shitty medivac split I laughed.. so true, he was doing a lot of innefficient move trying to split them  com'on INno one more ! | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
No but seriously I hope Inno doesn't keep going fast 3CC because that can (and has) gotten him punished really hard | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:42 pvsnp wrote: Inno plz stop going fast 3CC, you're gonna get Soulkey'd if you keep this up.... i'd thought so hard that he will be the biggest choker of the game after that, fortunately i was wrong so mech | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:44 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Apparently Rogue is deathly afraid of doing any aggression at all so Inno can get away with whatever he wants But aggression is supposed to be Rogue's thing....wtf is he thinking | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:26 pvsnp wrote: Rogue isn't as invincible as all the casters hype him up as, but he still plays a mean ZvT when he's in form. Losing so onesidedly was definitely uncharacteristic from him He got trashed 2-0 by Maru when trying to do proper macro games before coming back 3-2 with "macro allins" (not sure how to call such plays) so there is that. | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 06 2018 17:45 Poopi wrote: He got trashed 2-0 by Maru when trying to do proper macro games before coming back 3-2 with "macro allins" (not sure how to call such plays) so there is that. Timing pushes is probably the best term | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
That's also how he beat TY, and now how he is beating Inno. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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serendipitous
Canada195 Posts
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SetGuitarsToKill
Canada28396 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
bye-bye Rogue, maybe some other time | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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ByuuN
Poland678 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
On April 06 2018 18:16 pvsnp wrote: Would like to see herO make something happen here since he is not in Code S Same. Go herO. | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 18:23 Heartland wrote: +1 Blink Stalkers could probably do something here with good micro I don't think so at all, by the time herO can attack Zest will have enough immortals and gates ready | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
EDIT: Then herO takes a hidden base a second later | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 18:29 sneakyfox wrote: daaaamn. what the hell happened to make PvP this fun Shield batteries, economy change and disruptor changes! Also known as: make LotV PvP HotS PvP again | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 18:30 Olli wrote: Shield batteries, economy change and disruptor changes! Also known as: make LotV PvP HotS PvP again Not enough Colossi to be HotS. Where is the War of the Worlds? | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 18:31 pvsnp wrote: Not enough Colossi to be HotS. Where is the War of the Worlds? One step at a time! | ||
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51490 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
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HolydaKing
21254 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
- Artosis, 2018 | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
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D-light
Finland7364 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 18:56 Heartland wrote: Lol, how much gas did Zest have? #ZestMacro | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
he was banking for a raven switch | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Nobody expects the Ravens! | ||
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D-light
Finland7364 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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D-light
Finland7364 Posts
And you'll have 50% more with all thank banked chrono boost! | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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D-light
Finland7364 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:01 Obamarauder wrote: can someone tell me how big Zest's balls are? If only... *sigh* | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Did somebody switch the nametags? | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
Edit: oh it's over | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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D-light
Finland7364 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:04 Musicus wrote: herO should win this easily from here+ Considering he just won, I agree with this assessment | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Myrddrael
United Kingdom291 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:11 Myrddrael wrote: Plays a normal game one and smashes him, then tries random proxy stuff and gets slapped. Why Zest ffs Game one wasn't normal, it was greedy from Zest (though after going 4 gate on one base I guess the quick 3rd base was necessary). | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:23 Qikz wrote: I haven't seen SC2 in a long time. I'm off work, let's have a llook at this! Welcome back. Who was your favorite player back when you were watching before? Just saw your sig guess that answers that. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
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Penev
28483 Posts
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xongnox
540 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:29 Heartland wrote: Did three Queens just delete four banshees? What happened? 3 queens > 5 speed, cloacked, upgraded, banshees. Queens good unit. More seriously, this kind of super abusive greed af mech build simply deserves to die like that. | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Caelum93
62 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
That guy sitting there lost all the games on his builds. Rogue would have adjusted and cheesed Inno out, how insanely greedy he played. Innos 3rd constantly faster than Rogues, supply constantly higher or on Par. Rogue just played into his cards. He could have nydused, ling/bane dropped or bling bust / roach ravager all in him in all of the games. I just don't understand why he played this bad, zero creativity and zero reaction. Its like he didn't even want to win there. Oh well... On the other hand, Inno played well, but we all now he is a macro monster if people let him he will grow like hell. And Rogue simply let him, what a shame | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:47 Heartland wrote: Do you affect your own broodlings with the Blinding Cloud? No because they're not ranged units | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Does it friendly fire though? Like can hydras shoot through them? | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
What about the Swarm Host ones? They're ranged, right? | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:48 Heartland wrote: What about the Swarm Host ones? They're ranged, right? Correct. Blinding clouds affects your own units if you walk into them | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:48 Heartland wrote: What about the Swarm Host ones? They're ranged, right? Those are locusts, not broodlings, and apparently they cannot fire through blinding clouds | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:47 pvsnp wrote: Does it friendly fire though? Like can hydras shoot through them? Your own units also get blinded yes. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:48 Durnuu wrote: Correct. Blinding clouds affects your own units if you walk into them Kk thanks, I wasn't sure | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
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Penev
28483 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:44 MarianoSC2 wrote: Wow, I have no idea who played vs Inno today but it was definitely not Rogue. That guy sitting there lost all the games on his builds. Rogue would have adjusted and cheesed Inno out, how insanely greedy he played. Innos 3rd constantly faster than Rogues, supply constantly higher or on Par. Rogue just played into his cards. He could have nydused, ling/bane dropped or bling bust / roach ravager all in him in all of the games. I just don't understand why he played this bad, zero creativity and zero reaction. Its like he didn't even want to win there. Oh well... On the other hand, Inno played well, but we all now he is a macro monster if people let him he will grow like hell. And Rogue simply let him, what a shame That last battle too, awful Viper use, very not Rogue like at all. Maybe he's sick or something, he didn't look good at all today. Inno on the other hand looks like he finally got some his swagger back. See how he does vs herO. | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:51 MarianoSC2 wrote: Btw how did Zest play? Is he still slumping hardcore? I saw him against Keen a few days ago in Olimoleague. An abysmal performance from him really... The first game he wrecked hero with smart warp prism play. Game 2-4 he did a lot of high risk high reward plays like DTs, proxies, proxy stargate in hero's natural (lol). Seemed like he was desperate to win even though he looked better in a macro game. Not sure what he was doing | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:00 Heartland wrote: There are liars out there who will tell you that it is possible for a Terran to play a bo5+ without proxy raxing at least one. Cast out the liars I say! I mean, Inno played about an hour ago.... | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 06 2018 19:57 Obamarauder wrote: The first game he wrecked hero with smart warp prism play. Game 2-4 he did a lot of high risk high reward plays like DTs, proxies, proxy stargate in hero's natural (lol). Seemed like he was desperate to win even though he looked better in a macro game. Not sure what he was doing Thx. Shame I would like for Zest to be finally good again. Or at least decent, its strange seeing him like this for such a long time now :/ | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:06 Vindicare605 wrote: Did gumi scan the spire? Nice move insta building thors. I think he just wants to thor drop which is standard when going mech. Might have scanned it tho idk | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24582 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
0/3 Now I am pretty sure Stats will lose so I complete the 0/4 | ||
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Myrddrael
United Kingdom291 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:15 Myrddrael wrote: Maru literally showing every Terran how to smash face and Gumiho is like "Nah, I'll just do these weird greedy builds that don't work" I mean, Inno didn't use Maru's builds either. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:16 pvsnp wrote: Gumiho defeated Solar twice in online tourneys recently, good to see Solar learning from that and bringing his A-game when it counts I mean, Inno didn't use Maru's builds either. Guess GuMiHo always uses his own builds, right? But Innovation makes sense I think. Rogue's ZvT at the moment seems designed to avoid the situation that Maru/TY wants to go to. I understand why Innovation doesn't play that way. | ||
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Myrddrael
United Kingdom291 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:16 pvsnp wrote: Gumiho defeated Solar twice in online tourneys recently, good to see Solar learning from that and bringing his A-game when it counts I mean, Inno didn't use Maru's builds either. Inno won though. Gumiho got stomped | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:23 Olli wrote: Did you know Byun has good micro? At least in tvp he doesn't have to split vs banes | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:23 Olli wrote: Did you know Byun has good micro? Did you know Zest has good macro? | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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Kasaraki
Denmark7115 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:29 pvsnp wrote: I just realized Stats kept using the probe to harass because he assumed the rax was proxied so he didn't need to fear the reaper Actually it's because he's a season | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Pardon? | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
 | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Seasons don't fear the reaper | ||
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Caelum93
62 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
So, it was written and sung. | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
wew | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
Dunno why koreans needed 6 years to keep up tho. | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:42 xongnox wrote: Warp Prism Storm, the most broken unit ever since White-Ra. (vs MMA) Dunno why koreans needed 6 years to keep up tho. LiquidHero, Parting, Rain Dear for exemple used for years warp pris storm or even warp prism flanks. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:42 xongnox wrote: Warp Prism Storm, the most broken unit ever since White-Ra. (vs MMA) Dunno why koreans needed 6 years to keep up tho. Complaining about the WoL warp prism that had what felt like 1 HP is pretty silly | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:47 Durnuu wrote: I have no idea why ByuN made this viking before the raven. To hunt flying pylons? I dunno Actually that's exactly why, these colossus builds often get a prism before the first colossus | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
Landed vikings do bonus damage to robo units, check mate | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Doesn't matter though, donating two Colossi won't make a difference | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:49 pvsnp wrote: Sick colossi micro from Stats Sometimes using several control groups can be advantageous. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
Wtf was this colossi dance by Stats | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:49 Poopi wrote: TvP seems absurdly hard Wtf was this colossi dance by Stats Stats is absurdly better than ByuN | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:49 Poopi wrote: TvP seems absurdly hard Wtf was this colossi dance by Stats He knows PvT is so easy he can suicide his most important units and still win. Just BM. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:49 Poopi wrote: TvP seems absurdly hard Wtf was this colossi dance by Stats Probably just A-moved, and because they were disabled they just walked on ahead | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:49 Poopi wrote: TvP seems absurdly hard Wtf was this colossi dance by Stats It's what happens when you amove disabled units, they can't attack so they walk forward | ||
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
But the micro... | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
Is this a joke or? Stats is hella bad atm | ||
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
Imagine how shit ByuN is then  | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
So bad he gets to be GSL runner-up | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
Well he is terran so hard to compare :x User was warned for this post | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Terran is pretty good right now, not sure what the issue is | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
By beating soO who didn't perform well either at IEM Katowice edit: @Olli: PvT is at like 54% on aligulac (march 2018) and afaik apart from Maru not many terrans are performing well in TvP right now? Could be wrong but if ByuN is bad because he struggles in TvP, then every terran except Maru is bad | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:53 Olli wrote: Terran is pretty good right now, not sure what the issue is Against Protoss? The meta is literally 2-base allins because there's no way to fight Protoss once they get splash. Terran is pretty good against Zerg, sure. | ||
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
Oh yeah, I forgot you’re delusional for a second there | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:53 Poopi wrote: By beating soO who didn't perform well either at IEM Katowice INnoVation didn't perform well either at IEM Katowice, and yet he won vs Rogue, is terran imba in TvZ? | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:54 pvsnp wrote: Against Protoss? The meta is literally 2-base allins because there's no way to fight Protoss once they get splash. The meta I've seen recently is players trying to get to lategame where Terran is now really favored if they get to ravens | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:55 Olli wrote: The meta I've seen recently is players trying to get to lategame where Terran is now really favored if they get to ravens I've seen a grand total of 1 pro game where this happened (Maru vs Stats). Building the Raven count is close to impossible against Protoss, since obviously mech is not an option and the new Colossi melt marines. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:56 pvsnp wrote: I've seen a grand total of 1 pro game where this happened (Maru vs Stats). Building the Raven count is close to impossible against Protoss, since obviously mech is not an option and the new Colossi melt marines. I've seen a bunch of recent online games like it, looks quite good. I do think early/midgame is still Protoss favored, but once ghost/liberator is out the game becomes terran favored | ||
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dankobanana
Croatia238 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:57 Olli wrote: I've seen a bunch of recent online games like it, looks quite good. I do think early/midgame is still Protoss favored, but once ghost/liberator is out the game becomes terran favored Were these top Koreans doing this? I would like to see this myself, if you have links. All the games I've seen recently where Terran macroes are laughably onesided. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:58 dankobanana wrote: just play like Maru! That's what Guru told me No need to be Maru to beat Guru right? | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 06 2018 20:55 Olli wrote: The meta I've seen recently is players trying to get to lategame where Terran is now really favored if they get to ravens Where did you see this? Maybe on a ladder? This never happens in pro plays. Both Toss and Terran are trying to end the game as early as possible. Toss has better early game options, if Terran holds on against cheese and/or does some early damage to toss Eco they can win in mid game, which seems to be kinda balanced. In a sense that who does more early game damage simply wins in the mid-game, because any early damage snowballs pretty hard in this MU | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:00 MarianoSC2 wrote: Where did you see this? Maybe on a ladder? This never happens in pro plays. Both Toss and Terran are trying to end the game as early as possible. Toss has better early game options, if Terran holds on against cheese and/or does some early damage to toss Eco they can win in mid game, which seems to be kinda balanced. In a sense that who does more early game damage simply wins in the mid-game, because any early damage snowballs pretty hard in this MU Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:02 Olli wrote: Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream. I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive. I remember the game specifically because it was super passive until that fight and Zest basically just amoved to win off even positions. Liberators aren't what they used to be. | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus? Shootr laser | ||
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ilikeredheads
Canada1995 Posts
/s | ||
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Vindicare605
United States16071 Posts
Outclassed. Man it sucks to see him fall so far from where he was. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:02 Olli wrote: Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream. Okay so mostly ladder and some C-grade online tourneys. Thought so  Don't have time to watch all those games that don't really matter since the meta in the actual tournaments is completely different than some practice games on ladder | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus? 2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker. | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:03 pvsnp wrote: I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive. This is exactly what happened to ByuN thatr sounds imba On April 06 2018 21:05 pvsnp wrote: 2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker. Now I understand these colossus builds | ||
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sparklyresidue
United States5523 Posts
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AzAlexZ
Australia3303 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:06 sparklyresidue wrote: Byun's no Maru not even close | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
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dankobanana
Croatia238 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:05 MarianoSC2 wrote: Okay so mostly ladder and some C-grade online tourneys. Thought so Don't have time to watch all those games that don't really matter since the meta in the actual tournaments is completely different than some practice games on ladderLol, C-grade online tournaments, ok then. It's still GSL level players playing each other. What they're doing is relevant. And the meta in tournaments is absolutely not different from ladder at all. It's a dumb myth. | ||
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:05 pvsnp wrote: 2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker. And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased. | ||
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Caelum93
62 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:05 pvsnp wrote: 2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker. so overall terran tears | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:08 Sakkreth wrote: And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased. Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed. Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:06 sparklyresidue wrote: Byun's no Maru Maru didn't play one legit macro game vs Stats. He will probably get wreck super hard by Classic tomorrow. He can't fuck protoss mind every single game, lol. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:03 pvsnp wrote: I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive. I remember the game specifically because it was super passive until that fight and Zest basically just amoved to win off even positions. He is just Theorycrafting... He is right that the supreme late game can be Terran favored because of Raven ghost... In theory. But the fact is that maybe 1/200 games Terran is able to get to that stage. A) Terran cant afford to be passive and macro. Toss has so many early game harass options and better early eco that terran has to be super active on the map B) Toss simply wont allow it to get to that stage. If Terran does enough early damage protoss just dies in the midgame. If Terran does no damage or suffers some from protoss BS, terran just dies straight away, or in the midgame they try a desperation push and still die. PvT in a nutshell, unfortunately... :/ | ||
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:07 pvsnp wrote: I mean PvT isn't horrendously imbalanced, but the ~53% winrate is heavily reliant on Terran 2-base allining every game. PvT is in decent spot. Terrans are just used to have above 50% winrate for like over 90% of sc2's existence. | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:09 Ej_ wrote: The only time PvT was balanced was when it was 40% back in the Katowice TY won. Terrans players are naturally more talented. They tend to have more wrist issues tho | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
Or maybe they just complain about it more. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:09 pvsnp wrote: Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed. And toss open way greedier and get more upgrades and chargelots are way better and in-fight prism warp-in are fasters etc. So in total coloosi feels like 3x times stronger than in HoTs from a Terran perspective. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:10 MarianoSC2 wrote: He is just Theorycrafting... He is right that the supreme late game can be Terran favored because of Raven ghost... In theory. But the fact is that maybe 1/200 games Terran is able to get to that stage. A) Terran cant afford to be passive and macro. Toss has so many early game harass options and better early eco that terran has to be super active on the map B) Toss simply wont allow it to get to that stage. If Terran does enough early damage protoss just dies in the midgame. If Terran does no damage or suffers some from protoss BS, terran just dies straight away, or in the midgame they try a desperation push and still die. PvT in a nutshell, unfortunately... :/ Dude, I've literally seen it. There's no theorycrafting about it. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:08 Olli wrote: Lol, C-grade online tournaments, ok then. It's still GSL level players playing each other. What they're doing is relevant. And the meta in tournaments is absolutely not different from ladder at all. It's a dumb myth. Then instead of firing blind post some links here of the games that you're talking about... But you wont, because they don't exist, right? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:12 MarianoSC2 wrote: Then instead of firing blind post some links here of the games that you're talking about... But you wont, because they don't exist, right? BIASED PROTOSS WRITER EXPOSED | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:12 MarianoSC2 wrote: Then instead of firing blind post some links here of the games that you're talking about... But you wont, because they don't exist, right? I'm not going through hours of untitled VODs just to prove a point to a Terran whiner on a forum | ||
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:09 pvsnp wrote: Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed. Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work. It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:11 Olli wrote: Dude, I've literally seen it. There's no theorycrafting about it. Yes, but you have to watch ladder streams and some shitty online tournaments to actually see any of those games, if even that is true I have no way to confirm because I have no time to watch all of that. Why are we not seeing them in real relevant tournaments though? If that is the meta? But Okay whatever, live in your world I don't really care that much | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:14 Sakkreth wrote: It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi. I think marauders in general are really meh vs Protoss though. Been saying for a while that there's probably room for a buff to them. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:14 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yes, but you have to watch ladder streams and some shitty online tournaments to actually see any of those games, if even that is true I have no way to confirm because I have no time to watch all of that. Why are we not seeing them in real relevant tournaments though? If that is the meta? But Okay whatever, live in your world I don't really care that much Did you see the GSL finals? | ||
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:11 xongnox wrote: And toss open way greedier and get more upgrades and chargelots are way better and in-fight prism warp-in are fasters etc. So in total coloosi feels like 3x times stronger than in HoTs from a Terran perspective. And terran got this unit liberator that are used in like every tvp with main army and controls space. Game changes, you can't jsut say "x got buffed in this expansion, so therfore it's bs". Everything needs to be put into context. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
There's no late game in the final? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:14 Sakkreth wrote: It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi. Sorry, gonna have to trust Maru over you on this. You saw the finals, I presume. There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague. Playing like that levels the field so it's all down to single units and scrappy fights. Fighting colossi doesn't work at any consistent rate at the pro level. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:13 Olli wrote: I'm not going through hours of untitled VODs just to prove a point to a Terran whiner on a forum Lol, man, I never once balance whined in this thread. I think the matchup is pretty even balance wise. (early game toss has some advantages but whatever). What I have pointed out is that PvT is extremely boring, there is no late game, the strats are always the same, zero creativity, unexciting, anticlimactic, just plain dull. Its you who is whining and trying to prove a point that does not exist, not sure why, but okay... | ||
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Fyzar
Netherlands8010 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Ah wait, I meant Maru vs Stats at IEM, not GSL finals | ||
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:17 pvsnp wrote: Sorry, gonna have to trust Maru over you on this. You saw the finals, I presume. There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague. Stats is too good in macro, bsesides Maru was never really a straightup macro player. He's the aggressor. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:17 pvsnp wrote: There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague. Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are | ||
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:19 Sakkreth wrote: Stats is too good in macro, bsesides Maru was never really a straightup macro player. He's the aggressor. How does this make sense? Maru aims for the lategame in TvZ if he can't outright kill the zerg, why wouldn't he do the same in TvP? | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
In fact a lot of terrans wins are defending protoss BS/allin and then counter. It's strange to say this, but nowadays protoss all-ins is maybe the most balanced thing is this MU lol... User was warned for this post | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:19 Sakkreth wrote: Stats is too good in macro, bsesides Maru was never really a straightup macro player. He's the aggressor. ......or maybe Maru is just doing what it takes to win. There are plenty of games where Maru does this against Protoss, just go look at his Katowice games against sOs, Dear, etc. Show me the plenty of games where another top Terran macros to victory against Protoss (they don't exist). | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
NVM | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:18 Olli wrote: Ah wait, I meant Maru vs Stats at IEM, not GSL finals Okay well, that is the 1 example. As I said, 1/200 relevant games maybe? Come on, be real :D | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:19 Ej_ wrote: Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your claims. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:26 MarianoSC2 wrote: Okay well, that is the 1 example. As I said, 1/200 relevant games maybe? Come on, be real :D Keen vs Zest in Olimoleague I think 2 days ago? I believe I saw Gumiho do it against Protoss as well recently. Also watch streams. It's a rather new thing, so it only makes sense it's not being played regularly in offline tournaments yet. These things take time to spread and be figured out. Who knows, maybe it isn't as good as it looks - it looks really good though every time I see it. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:26 pvsnp wrote: All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your side. I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:28 Ej_ wrote: I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking Flawed in that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that collectively points towards the same conclusion? Taken individually, all the pieces could be coincidence. Taken together, the probability that all the Terrans got worse, and decided to cheese, and avoided macro games all at the same time seems like more than a coincidence. | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:28 Olli wrote: Keen vs Zest in Olimoleague I think 2 days ago? I believe I saw Gumiho do it against Protoss as well recently. Also watch streams. It's a rather new thing, so it only makes sense it's not being played regularly in offline tournaments yet. These things take time to spread and be figured out. Who knows, maybe it isn't as good as it looks - it looks really good though every time I see it. Hey, I actually saw the Keen vs Zest games Zest is just bad, he gifted Keen the wins with sloppy play. we cant take that as relevant examples. That is why I am saying that backing up your claims with C-class tournaments and irrelevant ladder games where Parting is trying to have some fun is just ridiculous and disrespectful towards the game | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:32 pvsnp wrote: Flawed in that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that collectively points towards the same conclusion? Taken individually, all the pieces could be coincidence. Taken together, the probability that all the Terrans got worse, and decided to cheese, and avoided macro games all at the same time seems like more than a coincidence. You literally pointed just to Maru, are you actually insane? | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:33 Ej_ wrote: You literally pointed just to Maru, are you actually insane? Is Maru not the best example of a top Terran right now? All the others have kinda dropped off, which was (part of) my point..... | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:32 MarianoSC2 wrote: Hey, I actually saw the Keen vs Zest games Zest is just bad, he gifted Keen the wins with sloppy play. we cant take that as relevant examples. That is why I am saying that backing up your claims with C-class tournaments and irrelevant ladder games where Parting is trying to have some fun is just ridiculous and disrespectful towards the gameDisrespectful towards the game, lol. Why do I bother? | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:34 pvsnp wrote: Is Maru not the best example of a top Terran right now? All the others have kinda dropped off, which was (part of) my point..... Sample size of 1 person proxying buildings in (quite fucking literally) 1 series where he had a week to prepare builds for. ALL THE SUBSTANSIAL EVIDENCE | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
It's also true that Zest has recently beaten aLive, MMA, aLive again, Cure, Cure again, Gumiho, Gumiho again, Byun, Gumiho again, Special, and Bunny. In fact, aside from Keen, he hasn't lost a PvT series since February. All these Terrans more or less around the same level as Keen, and Zest has beaten them all. I'm guessing that Keen is the outlier here, not the norm. | ||
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:35 Ej_ wrote: Sample size of 1 person proxying buildings in (quite fucking literally) 1 series where he had a week to prepare builds for. ALL THE SUBSTANSIAL EVIDENCE Maru vs Stats in GSL finals Maru vs sOs in GSL Ro8 Maru vs sOs at IEM Katowice Maru vs Dear at IEM Katowice This is just Maru, mind you, Inno has lost to guys like Nice and Hurricane. Meanwhile we have top Protoss players like Classic and Zest roflstomping Terrans. Not that hard to connect the dots for some reasonable level of certainty. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
There you go, you said it. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:28 Ej_ wrote: I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking | ||
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Poopi
France12889 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:38 pvsnp wrote: Maru vs Stats in GSL finals Maru vs sOs in GSL Ro8 Maru vs sOs at IEM Katowice Maru vs Dear at IEM Katowice This is just Maru, mind you, Inno has lost to guys like Nice and Hurricane. Meanwhile we have top Protoss players like Classic and Zest roflstomping Terrans. Not that hard to connect the dots for some reasonable level of certainty. Yeah. Have you seen recently a KR protoss say something like : "I don't wanna face terrans" | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:28 Olli wrote: Keen vs Zest in Olimoleague I think 2 days ago? I believe I saw Gumiho do it against Protoss as well recently. Also watch streams. It's a rather new thing, so it only makes sense it's not being played regularly in offline tournaments yet. These things take time to spread and be figured out. Who knows, maybe it isn't as good as it looks - it looks really good though every time I see it. OR maybe it's a thing you can only try on 2maps (neon violet & black water), if only the toss lets you get there. (eg Gumi go-to-build on Neon violet is a greedy mech to raven...and he does it only on this map) | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:41 Ej_ wrote: My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable. The funniest thing about this is that no-one is balance whining here. We are just stating facts and our disappointment about the matchup and its current meta. And here come you and Olli talking complete non-factual nonsense without any relevant information to rely upon, blindly accusing people of balance whining. That is just sad guys, unable to acknowledge reality and stubbornly kicking around when the problem is just within you is a diagnosis you know? User was warned for this post | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 22:00 MarianoSC2 wrote: The funniest thing about this is that no-one is balance whining here. We are just stating facts and our disappointment about the matchup and its current meta. And here come you and Olli talking complete non-factual nonsense without any relevant information to rely upon, blindly accusing people of balance whining. That is just sad guys, unable to acknowledge reality and stubbornly kicking around when the problem is just within you is a diagnosis you know? Calm down, this discussion is long over. I've given you games and series and told you where I saw it, you don't acknowledge that as sufficient evidence and I don't care about your opinion one bit, so let's leave it at that. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:41 Ej_ wrote: My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable. If protosses were proxying/2baes all-in every game in a MU, then we should ask the meta and balance, yeah. (either the all-in is too strong, or the meta macro too weak, or the 2). When top protosses were 90% going soul train in PvZ, that was for a reason. Macro was weak is the MU. Still, when they 2-bases-blink-abused every terran on earth thanks to MSC, that was for a reason : a 80%winrate even when opponent saw everything. Then it did get nerfed and toss did fine in macro. By the same way when we got rid of the 2nd pylon proxy oracles, toss still dominated in macro games. They did it just because it was super strong (even to transition macro ) So does terrans get a huge win ratio with their cheese and all-ins, even when opponent scout it perfectly? Absolutely not. Not even 50%. So maybe it's because current meta macro is unplayable. And for some reason every korean Terran says that. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On April 06 2018 22:00 MarianoSC2 wrote: The funniest thing about this is that no-one is balance whining here. We are just stating facts and our disappointment about the matchup and its current meta. And here come you and Olli talking complete non-factual nonsense without any relevant information to rely upon, blindly accusing people of balance whining. That is just sad guys, unable to acknowledge reality and stubbornly kicking around when the problem is just within you is a diagnosis you know? I haven't called anyone a balance whiner :o, I didnt' say any non-sense, because I didn't evem bring up any games. That post you quoted is literally everything I've said regarding my opinion on the matchup of TvP I really don't know what to say to you, friend. | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 06 2018 22:15 xongnox wrote: If protosses were proxying/2baes all-in every game in a MU, then we should ask the meta and balance, yeah. (either the all-in is too strong, or the meta macro too weak, or the 2). When top protosses were 90% going soul train in PvZ, that was for a reason. Macro was weak is the MU. Still, when they 2-bases-blink-abused every terran on earth thanks to MSC, that was for a reason : a 80%winrate even when opponent saw everything. Then it did get nerfed and toss did fine in macro. By the same way when we got rid of the 2nd pylon proxy oracles, toss still dominated in macro games. They did it just because it was super strong (even to transition macro ) So does terrans get a huge win ratio with their cheese and all-ins, even when opponent scout it perfectly? Absolutely not. Not even 50%. So maybe it's because current meta macro is unplayable. And for some reason every korean Terran says that. People asked for evidence before, so I'll do it this time too. I want to see where the 80% comes from, and when did "every korean Terran say that" ? | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
On April 06 2018 22:29 Durnuu wrote: People asked for evidence before, so I'll do it this time too. I want to see where the 80% comes from, and when did "every korean Terran say that" ? Are you kidding ? Blink-aera total PvT dominance is a well know fact in the community, causing the only GSL without terrans. It's like asking evidence earth is not flat lol. It's everywhere in every documentation. Go liquipedia or aligulac. For korean terrans opinions, read interviews and GSL selection. Same, every source point to it. For "terran strong in late game TvP thanks to raven", i watch a lot of starcraft and only saw it one time (and Stats fucked it up massively this time tbh ) | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On April 06 2018 22:43 xongnox wrote: Are you kidding ? Blink-aera total PvT dominance is a well know fact in the community, causing the only GSL without terrans. It's like asking evidence earth is not flat lol. It's everywhere in every documentation. Go liquipedia or aligulac. For korean terrans opinions, read interviews and GSL selection. Same, every source point to it. For "terran strong in late game TvP thanks to raven", i watch a lot of starcraft and only saw it one time (and Stats fucked it up massively this time tbh ) So you don't have a source and just tell me to "look it up". Fine | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On April 06 2018 22:43 xongnox wrote: Are you kidding ? Blink-aera total PvT dominance is a well know fact in the community, causing the only GSL without terrans. It's like asking evidence earth is not flat lol. It's everywhere in every documentation. Go liquipedia or aligulac. For korean terrans opinions, read interviews and GSL selection. Same, every source point to it. For "terran strong in late game TvP thanks to raven", i watch a lot of starcraft and only saw it one time (and Stats fucked it up massively this time tbh ) There's never been a GSL without Terrans, and there's never been an 80% winrate for any race in any matchup. The worst the blink era got was 55% in favor of Protoss. Funny enough we had 57% PvZ for three months until the most recent patch, but we don't talk about that. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
>There's never been a GSL without Terrans Its only a slight exaggeration, and you know it :  2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 1/Code S1 Terran in top8, 3 terrans in top32 (Maru already liked to perform when terran suxed hard) Full ZPcraft GSL. The next one was not a lot better : 2014 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code S2T in RO16, 4 in RO32 >and there's never been an 80% winrate for any race in any matchup I did not said that. I said some top protoss had 80% winrate with this build in this MU. Like classic nowdays vs T or some period of 4M Inno_vs_Z. Cf. http://aligulac.com/players/5/results/?after=2014-01-01&before=2014-06-01&event=&race=t&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op= User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
Here's PartinG vsT winrate a year later, after all the blink nerfs http://aligulac.com/players/5/results/?after=2015-01-01&before=2015-09-10&event=&race=t&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op= 85% for over 8 months. So either PartinG is a very good player and that 1-person stat from 2014 means nothing OR PvT was broken next year too E: altough tbf, if you filter for Korean opponents only, it plummets to measly 82% | ||
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:24 pvsnp wrote: ......or maybe Maru is just doing what it takes to win. There are plenty of games where Maru does this against Protoss, just go look at his Katowice games against sOs, Dear, etc. Show me the plenty of games where another top Terran macros to victory against Protoss (they don't exist). Maybe because Stats is way above sOs and Dear in long macro games. So yeah Maru did what it takes to win, avoiding long macro games as Stats is a beast in such situations. Besides, Maru showed that there is plenty of cheesy, aggressive options for terran. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 06 2018 21:41 Ej_ wrote: My favorite thing about this entire discussion is that whenever Protoss has ever proxied anything it's because the racenis fucking broken and the player is an abuser, but when Terrans do the same, it's because macro is unplayable. That's because there's a basis behind that. Protoss are doing a lot of proxies while also being favoured I macro games. Terran are doing a lot of cheeses/all-ins lately while also sucking in macro games, hence why it appears that they're forced into doing them. According to aligulac, every top terran in Korea got worse on TvP since 4.0, while all the toss got better. Also I'm confused, are people suddenly trying to argue that protoss isn't favoured in the matchup? I didn't realise that was even up for debte right now. Both TvP and PvZ have had obvious issues since 4.0. | ||
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
On April 07 2018 01:44 Fango wrote: That's because there's a basis behind that. Protoss are doing a lot of proxies while also being favoured I macro games. Terran are doing a lot of cheeses/all-ins lately while also sucking in macro games, hence why it appears that they're forced into doing them. According to aligulac, every top terran in Korea got worse on TvP since 4.0, while all the toss got better. Also I'm confused, are people suddenly trying to argue that protoss isn't favoured in the matchup? I didn't realise that was even up for debte right now. Both TvP and PvZ have had obvious issues since 4.0. No it's not. Protoss before that were weak in macro, therefore had to rely on cheese. See that's easy. It's because Terran was heavily favored before 4.0, now it's about even | ||
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yangluphil
318 Posts
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yangluphil
318 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 07 2018 01:47 Sakkreth wrote: No it's not. Protoss before that were weak in macro, therefore had to rely on cheese. See that's easy. It's because Terran was heavily favored before 4.0, now it's about even Complete nonsense. I can see that terran was slightly favoured before 4.0 maybe. But protoss never relied to cheese to win, you're just making that up. Even in times where protosses were cheesing almost every game (e.g. blink stalker), they were still good in the lategame. Choosing to cheese/allin because the macro game is unfair/feels impossible to win, is very different from choosing to cheese/allin because it's simply better or another viable option. The key difference is cheesing simply when you want to, and cheesing when you're forced to. Every top terran player is struggling in TvP right now, almost without exception. Meanwhile all the protosses have suddenly become gods in the matchup. You think every terran happened to slump while all the protosses just happened to improve? Even Maru, the #1 player in the world, who has improved hugely since 4.0, still has a shite winrate in TvP. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On April 07 2018 02:08 yangluphil wrote: Just one week later, folks return to disrespecting Stats as usual by acting like him stomping a mid-tier terran is worth a balance discussion. I mean sure, PVT is at 48-49%. It's not that terran favored yet. Let's get that down to 45%. No one is disrespecting Stats here. ByuN was trash in comparison to him. The match was just one-sided enough that it's not worth talking about and people ended up disucssing the meta/balance. | ||
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Sakkreth
Lithuania1096 Posts
On April 07 2018 02:37 Fango wrote: Complete nonsense. I can see that terran was slightly favoured before 4.0 maybe. But protoss never relied to cheese to win, you're just making that up. Even in times where protosses were cheesing almost every game (e.g. blink stalker), they were still good in the lategame. Choosing to cheese/allin because the macro game is unfair/feels impossible to win, is very different from choosing to cheese/allin because it's simply better or another viable option. The key difference is cheesing simply when you want to, and cheesing when you're forced to. Every top terran player is struggling in TvP right now, almost without exception. Meanwhile all the protosses have suddenly become gods in the matchup. You think every terran happened to slump while all the protosses just happened to improve? Even Maru, the #1 player in the world, who has improved hugely since 4.0, still has a shite winrate in TvP. The only reason you might be "forced" to cheese in TvP vs Stats, is because Stats is a fucking monster in macro. No, they are not struggling, neither is Maru. He won vs sOs and then vs Stats to take GSL trophy. For you to say the matchup is fine, is if Terrans play certain way vs Protoss - playing macro games only, has at least 55% winrate(as pre 4.0 that meant only slightly favored, but 53% for protoss now is a major problem) and winning championships, or maybe no, winning championships as terrans doesn't matter, they should win every one of it, because they naturally got more skillz | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On April 06 2018 03:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Bogus 1-3 RogueZest 3-2 herOGuMiho 3-1 SolarByuN 3-2 StatsSo much for winning this liquibet season -. - | ||
Shellshock
United States97276 Posts
INno pulled off the upset? I'm surprised | ||
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neutralrobot
Australia1025 Posts
On April 07 2018 04:01 Shellshock wrote: Stats vs Byun as expected INno pulled off the upset? I'm surprised I only caught one game, but in that one at least, he was looking pretty good. Maybe he's on the rise again? Though I don't know that it's that much of an upset. Rogue had a suddenly great run at IEM, but he still hasn't been looking solid lately overall. It's hard to know what to expect from him. Edit: Actually, I'm not even sure he had a "great run" so much as literally one great day. He's obviously still capable of greatness, and I still think he'll get himself together again, but I think he's shaky still ATM. | ||
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13977 Posts
On April 07 2018 05:15 Lorning wrote: Byun (Dirty Terran shut down by GOAT | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15972 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13977 Posts
On April 07 2018 05:33 Charoisaur wrote: No idea why I liquibetted ByuN. you believed in a thing called cyclone? | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On April 07 2018 03:30 Sakkreth wrote: The only reason you might be "forced" to cheese in TvP vs Stats, is because Stats is a fucking monster in macro. No, they are not struggling, neither is Maru. He won vs sOs and then vs Stats to take GSL trophy. For you to say the matchup is fine, is if Terrans play certain way vs Protoss - playing macro games only, has at least 55% winrate(as pre 4.0 that meant only slightly favored, but 53% for protoss now is a major problem) and winning championships, or maybe no, winning championships as terrans doesn't matter, they should win every one of it, because they naturally got more skillz Every single game in Maru vs Stats was decided by early aggression though. Three base/four base TvP off an even footing is slanted pretty far in Protoss' favour right now. | ||
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
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leublix
493 Posts
Same for the innovation vs rogue one. | ||
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Topin
Peru10081 Posts
On April 07 2018 06:14 juicyjames wrote: Was any of this recommended? zest vs herO was kind of fun and entertaining | ||
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