On April 06 2018 20:53 Poopi wrote: [quote] Well he is terran so hard to compare :x
Terran is pretty good right now, not sure what the issue is
Against Protoss? The meta is literally 2-base allins because there's no way to fight Protoss once they get splash.
The meta I've seen recently is players trying to get to lategame where Terran is now really favored if they get to ravens
Where did you see this? Maybe on a ladder? This never happens in pro plays. Both Toss and Terran are trying to end the game as early as possible. Toss has better early game options, if Terran holds on against cheese and/or does some early damage to toss Eco they can win in mid game, which seems to be kinda balanced. In a sense that who does more early game damage simply wins in the mid-game, because any early damage snowballs pretty hard in this MU
Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream.
I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive.
I remember the game specifically because it was super passive until that fight and Zest basically just amoved to win off even positions.
He is just Theorycrafting... He is right that the supreme late game can be Terran favored because of Raven ghost... In theory. But the fact is that maybe 1/200 games Terran is able to get to that stage. A) Terran cant afford to be passive and macro. Toss has so many early game harass options and better early eco that terran has to be super active on the map B) Toss simply wont allow it to get to that stage. If Terran does enough early damage protoss just dies in the midgame. If Terran does no damage or suffers some from protoss BS, terran just dies straight away, or in the midgame they try a desperation push and still die.
PvT in a nutshell, unfortunately... :/
Dude, I've literally seen it. There's no theorycrafting about it.
Yes, but you have to watch ladder streams and some shitty online tournaments to actually see any of those games, if even that is true I have no way to confirm because I have no time to watch all of that. Why are we not seeing them in real relevant tournaments though? If that is the meta? But Okay whatever, live in your world I don't really care that much
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
And toss open way greedier and get more upgrades and chargelots are way better and in-fight prism warp-in are fasters etc. So in total coloosi feels like 3x times stronger than in HoTs from a Terran perspective.
And terran got this unit liberator that are used in like every tvp with main army and controls space. Game changes, you can't jsut say "x got buffed in this expansion, so therfore it's bs". Everything needs to be put into context.
Terran is pretty good right now, not sure what the issue is
Against Protoss? The meta is literally 2-base allins because there's no way to fight Protoss once they get splash.
The meta I've seen recently is players trying to get to lategame where Terran is now really favored if they get to ravens
Where did you see this? Maybe on a ladder? This never happens in pro plays. Both Toss and Terran are trying to end the game as early as possible. Toss has better early game options, if Terran holds on against cheese and/or does some early damage to toss Eco they can win in mid game, which seems to be kinda balanced. In a sense that who does more early game damage simply wins in the mid-game, because any early damage snowballs pretty hard in this MU
Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream.
I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive.
I remember the game specifically because it was super passive until that fight and Zest basically just amoved to win off even positions.
He is just Theorycrafting... He is right that the supreme late game can be Terran favored because of Raven ghost... In theory. But the fact is that maybe 1/200 games Terran is able to get to that stage. A) Terran cant afford to be passive and macro. Toss has so many early game harass options and better early eco that terran has to be super active on the map B) Toss simply wont allow it to get to that stage. If Terran does enough early damage protoss just dies in the midgame. If Terran does no damage or suffers some from protoss BS, terran just dies straight away, or in the midgame they try a desperation push and still die.
PvT in a nutshell, unfortunately... :/
Dude, I've literally seen it. There's no theorycrafting about it.
Yes, but you have to watch ladder streams and some shitty online tournaments to actually see any of those games, if even that is true I have no way to confirm because I have no time to watch all of that. Why are we not seeing them in real relevant tournaments though? If that is the meta? But Okay whatever, live in your world I don't really care that much
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
Sorry, gonna have to trust Maru over you on this. You saw the finals, I presume. There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Playing like that levels the field so it's all down to single units and scrappy fights. Fighting colossi doesn't work at any consistent rate at the pro level.
On April 06 2018 20:53 Poopi wrote: [quote] Well he is terran so hard to compare :x
Terran is pretty good right now, not sure what the issue is
Against Protoss? The meta is literally 2-base allins because there's no way to fight Protoss once they get splash.
The meta I've seen recently is players trying to get to lategame where Terran is now really favored if they get to ravens
Where did you see this? Maybe on a ladder? This never happens in pro plays. Both Toss and Terran are trying to end the game as early as possible. Toss has better early game options, if Terran holds on against cheese and/or does some early damage to toss Eco they can win in mid game, which seems to be kinda balanced. In a sense that who does more early game damage simply wins in the mid-game, because any early damage snowballs pretty hard in this MU
Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream.
Okay so mostly ladder and some C-grade online tourneys. Thought so Don't have time to watch all those games that don't really matter since the meta in the actual tournaments is completely different than some practice games on ladder
Lol, C-grade online tournaments, ok then. It's still GSL level players playing each other. What they're doing is relevant. And the meta in tournaments is absolutely not different from ladder at all. It's a dumb myth.
Then instead of firing blind post some links here of the games that you're talking about... But you wont, because they don't exist, right?
I'm not going through hours of untitled VODs just to prove a point to a Terran whiner on a forum
Lol, man, I never once balance whined in this thread. I think the matchup is pretty even balance wise. (early game toss has some advantages but whatever). What I have pointed out is that PvT is extremely boring, there is no late game, the strats are always the same, zero creativity, unexciting, anticlimactic, just plain dull.
Its you who is whining and trying to prove a point that does not exist, not sure why, but okay...
Against Protoss? The meta is literally 2-base allins because there's no way to fight Protoss once they get splash.
The meta I've seen recently is players trying to get to lategame where Terran is now really favored if they get to ravens
Where did you see this? Maybe on a ladder? This never happens in pro plays. Both Toss and Terran are trying to end the game as early as possible. Toss has better early game options, if Terran holds on against cheese and/or does some early damage to toss Eco they can win in mid game, which seems to be kinda balanced. In a sense that who does more early game damage simply wins in the mid-game, because any early damage snowballs pretty hard in this MU
Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream.
I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive.
I remember the game specifically because it was super passive until that fight and Zest basically just amoved to win off even positions.
He is just Theorycrafting... He is right that the supreme late game can be Terran favored because of Raven ghost... In theory. But the fact is that maybe 1/200 games Terran is able to get to that stage. A) Terran cant afford to be passive and macro. Toss has so many early game harass options and better early eco that terran has to be super active on the map B) Toss simply wont allow it to get to that stage. If Terran does enough early damage protoss just dies in the midgame. If Terran does no damage or suffers some from protoss BS, terran just dies straight away, or in the midgame they try a desperation push and still die.
PvT in a nutshell, unfortunately... :/
Dude, I've literally seen it. There's no theorycrafting about it.
Yes, but you have to watch ladder streams and some shitty online tournaments to actually see any of those games, if even that is true I have no way to confirm because I have no time to watch all of that. Why are we not seeing them in real relevant tournaments though? If that is the meta? But Okay whatever, live in your world I don't really care that much
Did you see the GSL finals?
There's no late game in the final?
Ah wait, I meant Maru vs Stats at IEM, not GSL finals
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
Sorry, gonna have to trust Maru over you on this. You saw the finals, I presume. There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Stats is too good in macro, bsesides Maru was never really a straightup macro player. He's the aggressor.
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
Sorry, gonna have to trust Maru over you on this. You saw the finals, I presume. There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Stats is too good in macro, bsesides Maru was never really a straightup macro player. He's the aggressor.
How does this make sense? Maru aims for the lategame in TvZ if he can't outright kill the zerg, why wouldn't he do the same in TvP?
People still arguing this MU is not macro-imbalanced af for protoss is kinda unreal. Every Korean TvP win are cheese or 2base and get totally wreck when trying to legit macro. In fact a lot of terrans wins are defending protoss BS/allin and then counter. It's strange to say this, but nowadays protoss all-ins is maybe the most balanced thing is this MU lol...
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
Sorry, gonna have to trust Maru over you on this. You saw the finals, I presume. There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Stats is too good in macro, bsesides Maru was never really a straightup macro player. He's the aggressor.
......or maybe Maru is just doing what it takes to win. There are plenty of games where Maru does this against Protoss, just go look at his Katowice games against sOs, Dear, etc.
Show me the plenty of games where another top Terran macros to victory against Protoss (they don't exist).
Terran is pretty good right now, not sure what the issue is
Against Protoss? The meta is literally 2-base allins because there's no way to fight Protoss once they get splash.
The meta I've seen recently is players trying to get to lategame where Terran is now really favored if they get to ravens
Where did you see this? Maybe on a ladder? This never happens in pro plays. Both Toss and Terran are trying to end the game as early as possible. Toss has better early game options, if Terran holds on against cheese and/or does some early damage to toss Eco they can win in mid game, which seems to be kinda balanced. In a sense that who does more early game damage simply wins in the mid-game, because any early damage snowballs pretty hard in this MU
Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream.
I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive.
I remember the game specifically because it was super passive until that fight and Zest basically just amoved to win off even positions.
He is just Theorycrafting... He is right that the supreme late game can be Terran favored because of Raven ghost... In theory. But the fact is that maybe 1/200 games Terran is able to get to that stage. A) Terran cant afford to be passive and macro. Toss has so many early game harass options and better early eco that terran has to be super active on the map B) Toss simply wont allow it to get to that stage. If Terran does enough early damage protoss just dies in the midgame. If Terran does no damage or suffers some from protoss BS, terran just dies straight away, or in the midgame they try a desperation push and still die.
PvT in a nutshell, unfortunately... :/
Dude, I've literally seen it. There's no theorycrafting about it.
Yes, but you have to watch ladder streams and some shitty online tournaments to actually see any of those games, if even that is true I have no way to confirm because I have no time to watch all of that. Why are we not seeing them in real relevant tournaments though? If that is the meta? But Okay whatever, live in your world I don't really care that much
The meta I've seen recently is players trying to get to lategame where Terran is now really favored if they get to ravens
Where did you see this? Maybe on a ladder? This never happens in pro plays. Both Toss and Terran are trying to end the game as early as possible. Toss has better early game options, if Terran holds on against cheese and/or does some early damage to toss Eco they can win in mid game, which seems to be kinda balanced. In a sense that who does more early game damage simply wins in the mid-game, because any early damage snowballs pretty hard in this MU
Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream.
I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive.
I remember the game specifically because it was super passive until that fight and Zest basically just amoved to win off even positions.
He is just Theorycrafting... He is right that the supreme late game can be Terran favored because of Raven ghost... In theory. But the fact is that maybe 1/200 games Terran is able to get to that stage. A) Terran cant afford to be passive and macro. Toss has so many early game harass options and better early eco that terran has to be super active on the map B) Toss simply wont allow it to get to that stage. If Terran does enough early damage protoss just dies in the midgame. If Terran does no damage or suffers some from protoss BS, terran just dies straight away, or in the midgame they try a desperation push and still die.
PvT in a nutshell, unfortunately... :/
Dude, I've literally seen it. There's no theorycrafting about it.
Yes, but you have to watch ladder streams and some shitty online tournaments to actually see any of those games, if even that is true I have no way to confirm because I have no time to watch all of that. Why are we not seeing them in real relevant tournaments though? If that is the meta? But Okay whatever, live in your world I don't really care that much
Did you see the GSL finals?
There's no late game in the final?
Ah wait, I meant Maru vs Stats at IEM, not GSL finals
Okay well, that is the 1 example. As I said, 1/200 relevant games maybe? Come on, be real :D
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are
All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your claims.
Where did you see this? Maybe on a ladder? This never happens in pro plays. Both Toss and Terran are trying to end the game as early as possible. Toss has better early game options, if Terran holds on against cheese and/or does some early damage to toss Eco they can win in mid game, which seems to be kinda balanced. In a sense that who does more early game damage simply wins in the mid-game, because any early damage snowballs pretty hard in this MU
Watch online tournaments, Keen's been doing it, I saw it vs Zest for example, but also a few other games I can't remember. I also see it a lot watching Protoss like Stats, Parting and Zest stream.
I dunno, I saw aLive try it vs Zest last week (Ballistix, I think) and Zest literally marched his army straight under six sieged Liberators and completely roflstomped aLive.
I remember the game specifically because it was super passive until that fight and Zest basically just amoved to win off even positions.
He is just Theorycrafting... He is right that the supreme late game can be Terran favored because of Raven ghost... In theory. But the fact is that maybe 1/200 games Terran is able to get to that stage. A) Terran cant afford to be passive and macro. Toss has so many early game harass options and better early eco that terran has to be super active on the map B) Toss simply wont allow it to get to that stage. If Terran does enough early damage protoss just dies in the midgame. If Terran does no damage or suffers some from protoss BS, terran just dies straight away, or in the midgame they try a desperation push and still die.
PvT in a nutshell, unfortunately... :/
Dude, I've literally seen it. There's no theorycrafting about it.
Yes, but you have to watch ladder streams and some shitty online tournaments to actually see any of those games, if even that is true I have no way to confirm because I have no time to watch all of that. Why are we not seeing them in real relevant tournaments though? If that is the meta? But Okay whatever, live in your world I don't really care that much
Did you see the GSL finals?
There's no late game in the final?
Ah wait, I meant Maru vs Stats at IEM, not GSL finals
Okay well, that is the 1 example. As I said, 1/200 relevant games maybe? Come on, be real :D
Keen vs Zest in Olimoleague I think 2 days ago? I believe I saw Gumiho do it against Protoss as well recently. Also watch streams. It's a rather new thing, so it only makes sense it's not being played regularly in offline tournaments yet. These things take time to spread and be figured out. Who knows, maybe it isn't as good as it looks - it looks really good though every time I see it.
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are
All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your side.
I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking
On April 06 2018 21:03 Mun_Su wrote: whatr does the new collosus?
2-shots marines now, just like the HotS colossus, except also Protoss gateway tech is stronger and Marauders are weaker.
And deals less dmg to non light units. Stop being biased.
Yeah, so marauders are better against Colossi......except for the part where marauders got nerfed and stalkers buffed.
Like I said, the matchup isn't super imbalanced as long as Terran just allins. Fighting Colossi just doesn't work.
It works, if you are not behind in macro or keep throwing units into a good defense. Stalkers still suck vs marauders, so do collosi.
There's a reason Maru, famous for his MARUders and Blink-era success against Protoss, used a bunch of mindgames and cheeses in the finals and avoided macro like the plague.
Crazy fan theory: it'se better to secure an effective BO win 4 minutes into the game than let Stats play on even terms, regardless of how strong you are
All these explanations are perfectly possible, but if they were actually true we expect to see examples of them in reality. If macro TvP is viable, then show me the top Terrans doing it on a consistent basis. I've given evidence that the top Terrans (basically just Maru, since all the others mysteriously got worse at the same time for reasons that are totally unrelated to balance) are all cheesing the shit out of Protoss instead. Back up your side.
I honesty dont care about this argument, just had to point out your incredibly flawed line of thinking
Flawed in that there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that collectively points towards the same conclusion?
Taken individually, all the pieces could be coincidence. Taken together, the probability that all the Terrans got worse, and decided to cheese, and avoided macro games all at the same time seems like more than a coincidence.
EPT
Don't have time to watch all those games that don't really matter since the meta in the actual tournaments is completely different than some practice games on ladder
