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On April 20 2015 21:04 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:03 in_flvxx wrote:
Flash and INnoVation are both not performing to their standards (tbh I personally expect more from Inno than Flash, given their SC2 histories). Therefore, they are both slumping, and maybe Inno is slumping harder, but for a shorter amount of time compared to Flash.
This is besides the point, but it's sad that we haven't seen enough Dream vs top-tier players since his loss to Maru. Dream is in Group B for Bubble in SSL, don't forget.
Mhmm. Group B is pretty awesome considering the storyline it carries. Whoever comes last will probably be shamed endlessly.
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On April 20 2015 21:06 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:04 sAsImre wrote:On April 20 2015 20:58 Silvana wrote:On April 20 2015 20:54 sAsImre wrote:On April 20 2015 20:53 Elentos wrote:On April 20 2015 20:52 OtherWorld wrote:On April 20 2015 20:50 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:45 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:43 GumBa wrote:
[quote]
You specifally call out a post talking about INnoVation though. Yeah I think it applies to Inno but I'm not exclusively talking about him. Form naturally ebbs and flows, It is stupid after some good form to then expect only that or spout slump slump. Nobody did that though. You just came out of nowhere insulted forum "dwellers". For example, go to earlier pages of this thread and see the 'slump slump' comments about Flash. Flash would still trash 99% of sc2 players everytime but the fact that he has bad form is a testament to the skill level of the game, especially in Korea. but it's "Flash loses to Dark, derp slump slump". There are like 3 posts saying that FlaSh is disappointing and these don't even mention a slump, but w/e They also conveniently ignore his opponent. I'm not disappointed by Flash losing to Dark that much, and Dark even almost fucked that one up. Well this match was like, ok Expedition Lost is gone and whatever happens there is still Stats/Zest/Life to cover up. No  I still had faith, thought Flash had something good prepared, thought there may be a reason he is sent in a Zerg map. Instead I saw Flash lose to Dark's trademark corruptors which make me think he didn't prepare well at all. Imo the best choice would've been action. You can't send a P, going with Life first was a huge gamble so you send Flash if you want to send one of the core 4. Would've liked him to just yolo 2rax tbh. Then regarding Dark style I think that it isn't solved yet and we will keep seeing him destroy terrans for some times, just look versus Maru at IEM. Maru did worse vs Dark than TaeJa did. I guess when the stars align TaeJa is still great.
I don't like TaeJa but he is/was an excellent player and someone that should match perfectly Dark style by playing defensive when he's in top form (blizzcon form at least)
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On April 20 2015 21:04 GumBa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:04 dazed25 wrote:On April 20 2015 21:02 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 21:00 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:55 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:53 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:50 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:45 Exstasy wrote:
[quote]
Yeah I think it applies to Inno but I'm not exclusively talking about him. Form naturally ebbs and flows, It is stupid after some good form to then expect only that or spout slump slump. Nobody did that though. You just came out of nowhere insulted forum "dwellers". For example, go to earlier pages of this thread and see the 'slump slump' comments about Flash. Flash would still trash 99% of sc2 players everytime but the fact that he has bad form is a testament to the skill level of the game, especially in Korea. but it's "Flash loses to Dark, derp slump slump". Flash is in not as much of a slump as he is stubborn in his play. He thinks he can do as much with the small numbers of units he creates during games as he could in BW. See at least you're contributing to the discussion, referencing his playstyle, taking into account other factors etc. Ok playstyle: Flash plays passively and stubbornly and like to allin in TvP. And he has been very very meh at that for a few months. if you haven't noticed most Terrans have been doing scv all ins vs P. It wasn't a bad response to the deathball when people were first doing it but now P just has to force a comfortable engagement by a nexus and they'll likely come out ahead. I think we'll see more of Maru's style (hopefully against stats tomorrow). 'has been very very meh' Very descriptive. Most terrans? Pretty 50/50 imo. Oh you want more description? Flash has been dowright terrible and has only started to win some games recently after a huge stretch of only losses and even then he looks mediocore. Meh mediocre is too much. He's still better than 80% of the players in PL. Did you see round 1?
Round 1 was worse than mediocre obviously. I'm talking recently. You can't blame him for losing to a guy like Dark who could probably beat any Terran in the world. People (both haters and hypers) will always judge Flash by unrealistic standards simply because of his BW history. Objectively speaking Flash will never be mediocre. He has shown he's capable of being a top 5 player but never for extended (or even reasonable) stretches. You can just look towards what his peers think of him. Maru fears him even at a time where he was slumping terribly. Everyone is expecting him to turn it around and you can never rule that possibility out.
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
On April 20 2015 21:05 Exstasy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:02 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 21:00 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:55 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:53 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:50 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:45 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:43 GumBa wrote:
[quote]
You specifally call out a post talking about INnoVation though. Yeah I think it applies to Inno but I'm not exclusively talking about him. Form naturally ebbs and flows, It is stupid after some good form to then expect only that or spout slump slump. Nobody did that though. You just came out of nowhere insulted forum "dwellers". For example, go to earlier pages of this thread and see the 'slump slump' comments about Flash. Flash would still trash 99% of sc2 players everytime but the fact that he has bad form is a testament to the skill level of the game, especially in Korea. but it's "Flash loses to Dark, derp slump slump". Flash is in not as much of a slump as he is stubborn in his play. He thinks he can do as much with the small numbers of units he creates during games as he could in BW. See at least you're contributing to the discussion, referencing his playstyle, taking into account other factors etc. Ok playstyle: Flash plays passively and stubbornly and like to allin in TvP. And he has been very very meh at that for a few months. if you haven't noticed most Terrans have been doing scv all ins vs P. It wasn't a bad response to the deathball when people were first doing it but now P just has to force a comfortable engagement by a nexus and they'll likely come out ahead. I think we'll see more of Maru's style (hopefully against stats tomorrow). 'has been very very meh' Very descriptive. Most terrans? Pretty 50/50 imo. Oh you want more description? Flash has been dowright terrible and has only started to win some games recently after a huge stretch of only losses and even then he looks mediocore. What I mean is that to contribute to a discussion you should back up claims of 'downright terrible' and 'mediocre' because how are you measuring those? he lost some games and you don't like his play?
http://aligulac.com/players/55/results/?after=2014-11-30&before=2015-04-20&event=&race=ptzr&country=all&bestof=all&offline=offline&game=all&wcs_season=&wcs_tier=&op=
Shit round 1 in PL bad play in GSL and in NSSL. Only cushioned by qualifer runs versus not exactly top tier oppnents. Even in his victorys he has not looked like the Flash of summer 2014.
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On April 20 2015 21:07 in_flvxx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:04 Elentos wrote:On April 20 2015 21:03 in_flvxx wrote:
Flash and INnoVation are both not performing to their standards (tbh I personally expect more from Inno than Flash, given their SC2 histories). Therefore, they are both slumping, and maybe Inno is slumping harder, but for a shorter amount of time compared to Flash.
This is besides the point, but it's sad that we haven't seen enough Dream vs top-tier players since his loss to Maru. Dream is in Group B for Bubble in SSL, don't forget. Mhmm. Group B is pretty awesome considering the storyline it carries. Whoever comes last will probably be shamed endlessly.
Except HyuN, I don't think HyuN would be ashamed  . Can't wait for Soulkey vs Classic, heads be rolling.
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On April 20 2015 20:57 Wintex wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 20:51 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:48 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:44 Wintex wrote:
Ok guys let`s just stop discussing with Kelsier since he won't stop repeating the same post over and over again. We are going in circles and should do something productive instead.
Opinions are and will remain opinions. well i've put forward reasons why the all-kill format doesn't make sense here and also why the format is poor in general and your only argument is that i'm bitching about protoss so clearly you didn't want to have a discussion anyway My first two posts directed at you mentioned race. The rest have not. Please look at the logs and reply to the arguments I've made about how the formats complement each other and create a change of pace for the viewers. It will make it easier for us both. you haven't contributed anything particularly valuable that makes me want to read your posts again. I disagree with you about the formats complementing eachother and i'm discussing that with people but if you want to just say "don't talk to him, i disagree with him" then you can be that kind of a person I guess No, you're just failing to assess the situation fairly. The formats work well together from a dramaturgical point of view (spectators, how important matches are etc), from a strategic point of view (one should be able to beat everything a team can throw at one) and because it showcases a different team dynamic. A team should be good as a team to reach a playoffs, and the regular format allows the most skilled teams to show how good their whole team is, while still leaving the ace player to show great stuff in an ace match. The All Kill format changes that and expects that every member that comes out should be able to contribute. If one fails, the next member either picks up the slack or makes the outcome more horrible. It also creates suspense in the order in which players come out in, and allows for clever sniping. A player that reaches the playoffs should be able to take down anything the opposing team can throw at him or her. These arguments seem to hold more ground than your personal dislike of format.
or one person comes out and wins a whole bunch of games. =)
I think there is less strategy in the All kill format to be honest and you get a lot of throw away games.
Something like this disclaimer i'm not actually the SKT or KT coach so this isn't a direct translation of what really happened
Dark vs Flash is the first game and they both prepare for eachother. Dark wins and KT have stats as the sniper. stats has prepared for Dark specifically but Dark hasn't prepared enough for stats because you can't prepare for every opponent on every map.
So Stats wins , now SKT may have sorry as a sniper but he ends up losing,
now it's just random matches really because they just use the best player for the map and neither player has likely prepared for the other on that map see above.
As for adding "suspense" or whatever, that has to be the most anti climatic final game of all time, classic was unlikely to beat stats and he was never going to beat the rest of KT so KT had already won the match before the game even started.
some people will say silly things like you get the best player to shine and reverse all kills etc but these are not the norm and most all kill format matches are pretty boring, the ace match idea used in the regular pro league format allows for your best player to shine.
I also believe the playoffs should reflect the way you got to the playoffs.
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
On April 20 2015 21:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:03 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 21:01 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:57 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:56 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:52 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:50 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:45 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:43 GumBa wrote:
[quote]
You specifally call out a post talking about INnoVation though. Yeah I think it applies to Inno but I'm not exclusively talking about him. Form naturally ebbs and flows, It is stupid after some good form to then expect only that or spout slump slump. Nobody did that though. You just came out of nowhere insulted forum "dwellers". For example, go to earlier pages of this thread and see the 'slump slump' comments about Flash. Flash would still trash 99% of sc2 players everytime but the fact that he has bad form is a testament to the skill level of the game, especially in Korea. but it's "Flash loses to Dark, derp slump slump". ofc Flash would trash most sc2 players lol he is a pro. Doesnt change the fact that he has been incredibly mediocore to downright bad for a couple of months now and I am pretty sure that is a slump. So once again you arguement falls flat cause those people are actually correct. I dont even get where your point is in Flash would beat Forum users thats just dumb. that was not my point lol First you reply to a post about Inno with lol forum dwellers are dumb slump slump we prove you wrong then you take another specific post about Flash and you are wrong again. Then why even mention it in your point. lol you think saying someone is wrong makes them wrong. Whatever happened to subjectivity Answer the point why even mention Flash can beat normal forum "dwellers". And please argue how Flash hasn't been slumping and playing mediocore. Every player is good, there is no mediocrity and slumps are an invention of the Illuminati
He isn't agrueing his own views lol wtf
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On April 20 2015 21:06 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:05 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 21:02 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 21:00 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:55 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:53 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:50 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:45 Exstasy wrote:
[quote]
Yeah I think it applies to Inno but I'm not exclusively talking about him. Form naturally ebbs and flows, It is stupid after some good form to then expect only that or spout slump slump. Nobody did that though. You just came out of nowhere insulted forum "dwellers". For example, go to earlier pages of this thread and see the 'slump slump' comments about Flash. Flash would still trash 99% of sc2 players everytime but the fact that he has bad form is a testament to the skill level of the game, especially in Korea. but it's "Flash loses to Dark, derp slump slump". Flash is in not as much of a slump as he is stubborn in his play. He thinks he can do as much with the small numbers of units he creates during games as he could in BW. See at least you're contributing to the discussion, referencing his playstyle, taking into account other factors etc. Ok playstyle: Flash plays passively and stubbornly and like to allin in TvP. And he has been very very meh at that for a few months. if you haven't noticed most Terrans have been doing scv all ins vs P. It wasn't a bad response to the deathball when people were first doing it but now P just has to force a comfortable engagement by a nexus and they'll likely come out ahead. I think we'll see more of Maru's style (hopefully against stats tomorrow). 'has been very very meh' Very descriptive. Most terrans? Pretty 50/50 imo. Oh you want more description? Flash has been dowright terrible and has only started to win some games recently after a huge stretch of only losses and even then he looks mediocore. What I mean is that to contribute to a discussion you should back up claims of 'downright terrible' and 'mediocre' because how are you measuring those? he lost some games and you don't like his play? Yeah, did you notice how he destroyed everyone in Round 1? And how he went very far in both Korean leagues in S1 too?
no one should have to tell you that these are not easy leagues. In Round 1 he beat BboongBboong and lost to Rogue, herO, Losira, Dark, BravO and Bomber. that should speak for itself
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On April 20 2015 21:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:04 Ragnarork wrote:On April 20 2015 21:01 OtherWorld wrote:On April 20 2015 20:57 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:48 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:44 Wintex wrote:
Ok guys let`s just stop discussing with Kelsier since he won't stop repeating the same post over and over again. We are going in circles and should do something productive instead.
Opinions are and will remain opinions. well i've put forward reasons why the all-kill format doesn't make sense here and also why the format is poor in general and your only argument is that i'm bitching about protoss so clearly you didn't want to have a discussion anyway My first two posts directed at you mentioned race. The rest have not. Please look at the logs and reply to the arguments I've made about how the formats complement each other and create a change of pace for the viewers. It will make it easier for us both. you haven't contributed anything particularly valuable that makes me want to read your posts again. I disagree with you about the formats complementing eachother and i'm discussing that with people but if you want to just say "don't talk to him, i disagree with him" then you can be that kind of a person I guess No, you're just failing to assess the situation fairly. The formats work well together from a dramaturgical point of view (spectators, how important matches are etc), from a strategic point of view (one should be able to beat everything a team can throw at one) and because it showcases a different team dynamic. A team should be good as a team to reach a playoffs, and the regular format allows the most skilled teams to show how good their whole team is, while still leaving the ace player to show great stuff in an ace match. The All Kill format changes that and expects that every member that comes out should be able to contribute. If one fails, the next member either picks up the slack or makes the outcome more horrible. It also creates suspense in the order in which players come out in, and allows for clever sniping. A player that reaches the playoffs should be able to take down anything the opposing team can throw at him or her. These arguments seem to hold more ground than your personal dislike of format. This. Regular season allows for teams with depth but no big big stars to do well and reach the playoffs with snipe builds and shit. Playoffs then allow teams with more raw skill to make the difference. I didn't see anyone bring the issue that actually, the regular season format may sometimes defines the outcome of a match purely based on the match-ups (depending on match-ups winratio, maps, etc), whereas the all-kill format allows for some clever adaptation that in my opinion rewards a bit more actual depth. That's why we don't see all-kills that much, and not always from star players (I mean, Stats is good, but has yet to really become tier 1, though his current record in Proleague and this all-kill makes for serious arguments for it). Stats IS tier one, top 5 toss easily
The most underrated and forgotten top 5 toss of the past year D:
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On April 20 2015 21:01 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 20:57 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:48 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:44 Wintex wrote:
Ok guys let`s just stop discussing with Kelsier since he won't stop repeating the same post over and over again. We are going in circles and should do something productive instead.
Opinions are and will remain opinions. well i've put forward reasons why the all-kill format doesn't make sense here and also why the format is poor in general and your only argument is that i'm bitching about protoss so clearly you didn't want to have a discussion anyway My first two posts directed at you mentioned race. The rest have not. Please look at the logs and reply to the arguments I've made about how the formats complement each other and create a change of pace for the viewers. It will make it easier for us both. you haven't contributed anything particularly valuable that makes me want to read your posts again. I disagree with you about the formats complementing eachother and i'm discussing that with people but if you want to just say "don't talk to him, i disagree with him" then you can be that kind of a person I guess No, you're just failing to assess the situation fairly. The formats work well together from a dramaturgical point of view (spectators, how important matches are etc), from a strategic point of view (one should be able to beat everything a team can throw at one) and because it showcases a different team dynamic. A team should be good as a team to reach a playoffs, and the regular format allows the most skilled teams to show how good their whole team is, while still leaving the ace player to show great stuff in an ace match. The All Kill format changes that and expects that every member that comes out should be able to contribute. If one fails, the next member either picks up the slack or makes the outcome more horrible. It also creates suspense in the order in which players come out in, and allows for clever sniping. A player that reaches the playoffs should be able to take down anything the opposing team can throw at him or her. These arguments seem to hold more ground than your personal dislike of format. This. Regular season allows for teams with depth but no big big stars to do well and reach the playoffs with snipe builds and shit. Playoffs then allow teams with more raw skill to make the difference.
which team has no big stars that made the playoffs?
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On April 20 2015 21:11 Exstasy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:06 OtherWorld wrote:On April 20 2015 21:05 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 21:02 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 21:00 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:55 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:53 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:50 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 GumBa wrote:
[quote]
Nobody did that though. You just came out of nowhere insulted forum "dwellers". For example, go to earlier pages of this thread and see the 'slump slump' comments about Flash. Flash would still trash 99% of sc2 players everytime but the fact that he has bad form is a testament to the skill level of the game, especially in Korea. but it's "Flash loses to Dark, derp slump slump". Flash is in not as much of a slump as he is stubborn in his play. He thinks he can do as much with the small numbers of units he creates during games as he could in BW. See at least you're contributing to the discussion, referencing his playstyle, taking into account other factors etc. Ok playstyle: Flash plays passively and stubbornly and like to allin in TvP. And he has been very very meh at that for a few months. if you haven't noticed most Terrans have been doing scv all ins vs P. It wasn't a bad response to the deathball when people were first doing it but now P just has to force a comfortable engagement by a nexus and they'll likely come out ahead. I think we'll see more of Maru's style (hopefully against stats tomorrow). 'has been very very meh' Very descriptive. Most terrans? Pretty 50/50 imo. Oh you want more description? Flash has been dowright terrible and has only started to win some games recently after a huge stretch of only losses and even then he looks mediocore. What I mean is that to contribute to a discussion you should back up claims of 'downright terrible' and 'mediocre' because how are you measuring those? he lost some games and you don't like his play? Yeah, did you notice how he destroyed everyone in Round 1? And how he went very far in both Korean leagues in S1 too? no one should have to tell you that these are not easy leagues. In Round 1 he beat BboongBboong and lost to Rogue, herO, Losira, Dark, BravO and Bomber. that should speak for itself
And? To be considered good (that is, not mediocre, or above average) you need to beat good players. If you're unable to beat good players, then you're not considered good. Isn't it how it works?
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On April 20 2015 21:09 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:07 in_flvxx wrote:On April 20 2015 21:04 Elentos wrote:On April 20 2015 21:03 in_flvxx wrote:
Flash and INnoVation are both not performing to their standards (tbh I personally expect more from Inno than Flash, given their SC2 histories). Therefore, they are both slumping, and maybe Inno is slumping harder, but for a shorter amount of time compared to Flash.
This is besides the point, but it's sad that we haven't seen enough Dream vs top-tier players since his loss to Maru. Dream is in Group B for Bubble in SSL, don't forget. Mhmm. Group B is pretty awesome considering the storyline it carries. Whoever comes last will probably be shamed endlessly. Except HyuN, I don't think HyuN would be ashamed . Can't wait for Soulkey vs Classic, heads be rolling.
Heheh. I guess HyuN won't be. He's had a pretty great (and long-lived) career already, and he does look like the underdog at first glance.
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Norway16838 Posts
On April 20 2015 21:09 KelsierSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 20:57 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:48 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:44 Wintex wrote:
Ok guys let`s just stop discussing with Kelsier since he won't stop repeating the same post over and over again. We are going in circles and should do something productive instead.
Opinions are and will remain opinions. well i've put forward reasons why the all-kill format doesn't make sense here and also why the format is poor in general and your only argument is that i'm bitching about protoss so clearly you didn't want to have a discussion anyway My first two posts directed at you mentioned race. The rest have not. Please look at the logs and reply to the arguments I've made about how the formats complement each other and create a change of pace for the viewers. It will make it easier for us both. you haven't contributed anything particularly valuable that makes me want to read your posts again. I disagree with you about the formats complementing eachother and i'm discussing that with people but if you want to just say "don't talk to him, i disagree with him" then you can be that kind of a person I guess No, you're just failing to assess the situation fairly. The formats work well together from a dramaturgical point of view (spectators, how important matches are etc), from a strategic point of view (one should be able to beat everything a team can throw at one) and because it showcases a different team dynamic. A team should be good as a team to reach a playoffs, and the regular format allows the most skilled teams to show how good their whole team is, while still leaving the ace player to show great stuff in an ace match. The All Kill format changes that and expects that every member that comes out should be able to contribute. If one fails, the next member either picks up the slack or makes the outcome more horrible. It also creates suspense in the order in which players come out in, and allows for clever sniping. A player that reaches the playoffs should be able to take down anything the opposing team can throw at him or her. These arguments seem to hold more ground than your personal dislike of format. or one person comes out and wins a whole bunch of games. =) I think there is less strategy in the All kill format to be honest and you get a lot of throw away games. Something like this disclaimer i'm not actually the SKT or KT coach so this isn't a direct translation of what really happenedDark vs Flash is the first game and they both prepare for eachother. Dark wins and KT have stats as the sniper. stats has prepared for Dark specifically but Dark hasn't prepared enough for stats because you can't prepare for every opponent on every map. So Stats wins , now SKT may have sorry as a sniper but he ends up losing, now it's just random matches really because they just use the best player for the map and neither player has likely prepared for the other on that map see above. As for adding "suspense" or whatever, that has to be the most anti climatic final game of all time, classic was unlikely to beat stats and he was never going to beat the rest of KT so KT had already won the match before the game even started. some people will say silly things like you get the best player to shine and reverse all kills etc but these are not the norm and most all kill format matches are pretty boring, the ace match idea used in the regular pro league format allows for your best player to shine. I also believe the playoffs should reflect the way you got to the playoffs.
Well, honestly. You are not attempting to phrase stuff as anything close to objective, and arguing with opinions isn't advised.
Sorry, but I don't want to continue any further.
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On April 20 2015 21:11 KelsierSC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:01 OtherWorld wrote:On April 20 2015 20:57 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:48 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:44 Wintex wrote:
Ok guys let`s just stop discussing with Kelsier since he won't stop repeating the same post over and over again. We are going in circles and should do something productive instead.
Opinions are and will remain opinions. well i've put forward reasons why the all-kill format doesn't make sense here and also why the format is poor in general and your only argument is that i'm bitching about protoss so clearly you didn't want to have a discussion anyway My first two posts directed at you mentioned race. The rest have not. Please look at the logs and reply to the arguments I've made about how the formats complement each other and create a change of pace for the viewers. It will make it easier for us both. you haven't contributed anything particularly valuable that makes me want to read your posts again. I disagree with you about the formats complementing eachother and i'm discussing that with people but if you want to just say "don't talk to him, i disagree with him" then you can be that kind of a person I guess No, you're just failing to assess the situation fairly. The formats work well together from a dramaturgical point of view (spectators, how important matches are etc), from a strategic point of view (one should be able to beat everything a team can throw at one) and because it showcases a different team dynamic. A team should be good as a team to reach a playoffs, and the regular format allows the most skilled teams to show how good their whole team is, while still leaving the ace player to show great stuff in an ace match. The All Kill format changes that and expects that every member that comes out should be able to contribute. If one fails, the next member either picks up the slack or makes the outcome more horrible. It also creates suspense in the order in which players come out in, and allows for clever sniping. A player that reaches the playoffs should be able to take down anything the opposing team can throw at him or her. These arguments seem to hold more ground than your personal dislike of format. This. Regular season allows for teams with depth but no big big stars to do well and reach the playoffs with snipe builds and shit. Playoffs then allow teams with more raw skill to make the difference. which team has no big stars that made the playoffs?
So far none, last season MVP in R2.
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On April 20 2015 21:12 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:11 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 21:06 OtherWorld wrote:On April 20 2015 21:05 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 21:02 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 21:00 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:55 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:53 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:50 Exstasy wrote:
[quote]
For example, go to earlier pages of this thread and see the 'slump slump' comments about Flash. Flash would still trash 99% of sc2 players everytime but the fact that he has bad form is a testament to the skill level of the game, especially in Korea. but it's "Flash loses to Dark, derp slump slump". Flash is in not as much of a slump as he is stubborn in his play. He thinks he can do as much with the small numbers of units he creates during games as he could in BW. See at least you're contributing to the discussion, referencing his playstyle, taking into account other factors etc. Ok playstyle: Flash plays passively and stubbornly and like to allin in TvP. And he has been very very meh at that for a few months. if you haven't noticed most Terrans have been doing scv all ins vs P. It wasn't a bad response to the deathball when people were first doing it but now P just has to force a comfortable engagement by a nexus and they'll likely come out ahead. I think we'll see more of Maru's style (hopefully against stats tomorrow). 'has been very very meh' Very descriptive. Most terrans? Pretty 50/50 imo. Oh you want more description? Flash has been dowright terrible and has only started to win some games recently after a huge stretch of only losses and even then he looks mediocore. What I mean is that to contribute to a discussion you should back up claims of 'downright terrible' and 'mediocre' because how are you measuring those? he lost some games and you don't like his play? Yeah, did you notice how he destroyed everyone in Round 1? And how he went very far in both Korean leagues in S1 too? no one should have to tell you that these are not easy leagues. In Round 1 he beat BboongBboong and lost to Rogue, herO, Losira, Dark, BravO and Bomber. that should speak for itself And? To be considered good (that is, not mediocre, or above average) you need to beat good players. If you're unable to beat good players, then you're not considered good. Isn't it how it works?
No, if you're Korean you're good by default, if you're a foreigner you're never good. I thought you'd have learned by now.
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On April 20 2015 21:11 KingofdaHipHop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:07 The_Red_Viper wrote:On April 20 2015 21:04 Ragnarork wrote:On April 20 2015 21:01 OtherWorld wrote:On April 20 2015 20:57 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:48 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:44 Wintex wrote:
Ok guys let`s just stop discussing with Kelsier since he won't stop repeating the same post over and over again. We are going in circles and should do something productive instead.
Opinions are and will remain opinions. well i've put forward reasons why the all-kill format doesn't make sense here and also why the format is poor in general and your only argument is that i'm bitching about protoss so clearly you didn't want to have a discussion anyway My first two posts directed at you mentioned race. The rest have not. Please look at the logs and reply to the arguments I've made about how the formats complement each other and create a change of pace for the viewers. It will make it easier for us both. you haven't contributed anything particularly valuable that makes me want to read your posts again. I disagree with you about the formats complementing eachother and i'm discussing that with people but if you want to just say "don't talk to him, i disagree with him" then you can be that kind of a person I guess No, you're just failing to assess the situation fairly. The formats work well together from a dramaturgical point of view (spectators, how important matches are etc), from a strategic point of view (one should be able to beat everything a team can throw at one) and because it showcases a different team dynamic. A team should be good as a team to reach a playoffs, and the regular format allows the most skilled teams to show how good their whole team is, while still leaving the ace player to show great stuff in an ace match. The All Kill format changes that and expects that every member that comes out should be able to contribute. If one fails, the next member either picks up the slack or makes the outcome more horrible. It also creates suspense in the order in which players come out in, and allows for clever sniping. A player that reaches the playoffs should be able to take down anything the opposing team can throw at him or her. These arguments seem to hold more ground than your personal dislike of format. This. Regular season allows for teams with depth but no big big stars to do well and reach the playoffs with snipe builds and shit. Playoffs then allow teams with more raw skill to make the difference. I didn't see anyone bring the issue that actually, the regular season format may sometimes defines the outcome of a match purely based on the match-ups (depending on match-ups winratio, maps, etc), whereas the all-kill format allows for some clever adaptation that in my opinion rewards a bit more actual depth. That's why we don't see all-kills that much, and not always from star players (I mean, Stats is good, but has yet to really become tier 1, though his current record in Proleague and this all-kill makes for serious arguments for it). Stats IS tier one, top 5 toss easily The most underrated and forgotten top 5 toss of the past year D:
Wow people still sleeping on Stats. He's been top 5 protoss since last year WCG. With Rain declining, Zest and sOs being inconsistent, the only protoss you can put ahead of Stats are PartinG and herO. And he can even surpass them if he has more results to show for it.
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
On April 20 2015 21:12 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:11 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 21:06 OtherWorld wrote:On April 20 2015 21:05 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 21:02 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 21:00 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:55 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:53 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:50 Exstasy wrote:
[quote]
For example, go to earlier pages of this thread and see the 'slump slump' comments about Flash. Flash would still trash 99% of sc2 players everytime but the fact that he has bad form is a testament to the skill level of the game, especially in Korea. but it's "Flash loses to Dark, derp slump slump". Flash is in not as much of a slump as he is stubborn in his play. He thinks he can do as much with the small numbers of units he creates during games as he could in BW. See at least you're contributing to the discussion, referencing his playstyle, taking into account other factors etc. Ok playstyle: Flash plays passively and stubbornly and like to allin in TvP. And he has been very very meh at that for a few months. if you haven't noticed most Terrans have been doing scv all ins vs P. It wasn't a bad response to the deathball when people were first doing it but now P just has to force a comfortable engagement by a nexus and they'll likely come out ahead. I think we'll see more of Maru's style (hopefully against stats tomorrow). 'has been very very meh' Very descriptive. Most terrans? Pretty 50/50 imo. Oh you want more description? Flash has been dowright terrible and has only started to win some games recently after a huge stretch of only losses and even then he looks mediocore. What I mean is that to contribute to a discussion you should back up claims of 'downright terrible' and 'mediocre' because how are you measuring those? he lost some games and you don't like his play? Yeah, did you notice how he destroyed everyone in Round 1? And how he went very far in both Korean leagues in S1 too? no one should have to tell you that these are not easy leagues. In Round 1 he beat BboongBboong and lost to Rogue, herO, Losira, Dark, BravO and Bomber. that should speak for itself And? To be considered good (that is, not mediocre, or above average) you need to beat good players. If you're unable to beat good players, then you're not considered good. Isn't it how it works?
No! We as forum dwellers have no clue and would lose against Flash rendering him incapable of being in a slump! Slumps are myths there are only good players and they never have a dip in form for a period with which we refer to with the S word
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On April 20 2015 21:13 GumBa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:12 OtherWorld wrote:On April 20 2015 21:11 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 21:06 OtherWorld wrote:On April 20 2015 21:05 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 21:02 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 21:00 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:55 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:53 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 Wintex wrote:
[quote]
Flash is in not as much of a slump as he is stubborn in his play.
He thinks he can do as much with the small numbers of units he creates during games as he could in BW. See at least you're contributing to the discussion, referencing his playstyle, taking into account other factors etc. Ok playstyle: Flash plays passively and stubbornly and like to allin in TvP. And he has been very very meh at that for a few months. if you haven't noticed most Terrans have been doing scv all ins vs P. It wasn't a bad response to the deathball when people were first doing it but now P just has to force a comfortable engagement by a nexus and they'll likely come out ahead. I think we'll see more of Maru's style (hopefully against stats tomorrow). 'has been very very meh' Very descriptive. Most terrans? Pretty 50/50 imo. Oh you want more description? Flash has been dowright terrible and has only started to win some games recently after a huge stretch of only losses and even then he looks mediocore. What I mean is that to contribute to a discussion you should back up claims of 'downright terrible' and 'mediocre' because how are you measuring those? he lost some games and you don't like his play? Yeah, did you notice how he destroyed everyone in Round 1? And how he went very far in both Korean leagues in S1 too? no one should have to tell you that these are not easy leagues. In Round 1 he beat BboongBboong and lost to Rogue, herO, Losira, Dark, BravO and Bomber. that should speak for itself And? To be considered good (that is, not mediocre, or above average) you need to beat good players. If you're unable to beat good players, then you're not considered good. Isn't it how it works? No! We as forum dwellers have no clue and would lose against Flash rendering him incapable of being in a slump! Slumps are myths there are only good players and they never have a dip in form for a period with which we refer to with the S word
All I believed in was a lie
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United Kingdom10443 Posts
On April 20 2015 21:13 Wintex wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:09 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:57 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:48 Wintex wrote:On April 20 2015 20:46 KelsierSC wrote:On April 20 2015 20:44 Wintex wrote:
Ok guys let`s just stop discussing with Kelsier since he won't stop repeating the same post over and over again. We are going in circles and should do something productive instead.
Opinions are and will remain opinions. well i've put forward reasons why the all-kill format doesn't make sense here and also why the format is poor in general and your only argument is that i'm bitching about protoss so clearly you didn't want to have a discussion anyway My first two posts directed at you mentioned race. The rest have not. Please look at the logs and reply to the arguments I've made about how the formats complement each other and create a change of pace for the viewers. It will make it easier for us both. you haven't contributed anything particularly valuable that makes me want to read your posts again. I disagree with you about the formats complementing eachother and i'm discussing that with people but if you want to just say "don't talk to him, i disagree with him" then you can be that kind of a person I guess No, you're just failing to assess the situation fairly. The formats work well together from a dramaturgical point of view (spectators, how important matches are etc), from a strategic point of view (one should be able to beat everything a team can throw at one) and because it showcases a different team dynamic. A team should be good as a team to reach a playoffs, and the regular format allows the most skilled teams to show how good their whole team is, while still leaving the ace player to show great stuff in an ace match. The All Kill format changes that and expects that every member that comes out should be able to contribute. If one fails, the next member either picks up the slack or makes the outcome more horrible. It also creates suspense in the order in which players come out in, and allows for clever sniping. A player that reaches the playoffs should be able to take down anything the opposing team can throw at him or her. These arguments seem to hold more ground than your personal dislike of format. or one person comes out and wins a whole bunch of games. =) I think there is less strategy in the All kill format to be honest and you get a lot of throw away games. Something like this disclaimer i'm not actually the SKT or KT coach so this isn't a direct translation of what really happenedDark vs Flash is the first game and they both prepare for eachother. Dark wins and KT have stats as the sniper. stats has prepared for Dark specifically but Dark hasn't prepared enough for stats because you can't prepare for every opponent on every map. So Stats wins , now SKT may have sorry as a sniper but he ends up losing, now it's just random matches really because they just use the best player for the map and neither player has likely prepared for the other on that map see above. As for adding "suspense" or whatever, that has to be the most anti climatic final game of all time, classic was unlikely to beat stats and he was never going to beat the rest of KT so KT had already won the match before the game even started. some people will say silly things like you get the best player to shine and reverse all kills etc but these are not the norm and most all kill format matches are pretty boring, the ace match idea used in the regular pro league format allows for your best player to shine. I also believe the playoffs should reflect the way you got to the playoffs. Well, honestly. You are not attempting to phrase stuff as anything close to objective, and arguing with opinions isn't advised. Sorry, but I don't want to continue any further.
what a shame
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Norway16838 Posts
On April 20 2015 21:13 GumBa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 21:12 OtherWorld wrote:On April 20 2015 21:11 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 21:06 OtherWorld wrote:On April 20 2015 21:05 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 21:02 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 21:00 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:55 GumBa wrote:On April 20 2015 20:53 Exstasy wrote:On April 20 2015 20:51 Wintex wrote:
[quote]
Flash is in not as much of a slump as he is stubborn in his play.
He thinks he can do as much with the small numbers of units he creates during games as he could in BW. See at least you're contributing to the discussion, referencing his playstyle, taking into account other factors etc. Ok playstyle: Flash plays passively and stubbornly and like to allin in TvP. And he has been very very meh at that for a few months. if you haven't noticed most Terrans have been doing scv all ins vs P. It wasn't a bad response to the deathball when people were first doing it but now P just has to force a comfortable engagement by a nexus and they'll likely come out ahead. I think we'll see more of Maru's style (hopefully against stats tomorrow). 'has been very very meh' Very descriptive. Most terrans? Pretty 50/50 imo. Oh you want more description? Flash has been dowright terrible and has only started to win some games recently after a huge stretch of only losses and even then he looks mediocore. What I mean is that to contribute to a discussion you should back up claims of 'downright terrible' and 'mediocre' because how are you measuring those? he lost some games and you don't like his play? Yeah, did you notice how he destroyed everyone in Round 1? And how he went very far in both Korean leagues in S1 too? no one should have to tell you that these are not easy leagues. In Round 1 he beat BboongBboong and lost to Rogue, herO, Losira, Dark, BravO and Bomber. that should speak for itself And? To be considered good (that is, not mediocre, or above average) you need to beat good players. If you're unable to beat good players, then you're not considered good. Isn't it how it works? No! We as forum dwellers have no clue and would lose against Flash rendering him incapable of being in a slump! Slumps are myths there are only good players and they never have a dip in form for a period with which we refer to with the S word
Savior?
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EPT
