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United States23455 Posts
On March 22 2015 18:42 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:31 Darkhorse wrote:On March 22 2015 18:26 Nebuchad wrote:On March 22 2015 18:19 Darkhorse wrote:On March 22 2015 18:17 Nebuchad wrote:On March 22 2015 18:15 Darkhorse wrote:On March 22 2015 18:12 Nebuchad wrote:
There's something kind of sad about people fighting over which player is the best and why. Tournaments are snapshots in time. Did Mvp win some of his GSL at an easier time? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He still won them. Could Mvp have won more tournaments if he didn't have health issues? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He does. People don't argue over whether Kasparov would beat Carlsen today if he hadn't gone into politics. They don't because there's obviously no answer, and the question isn't even interesting. Your mom... Doesn't... Have an answer... And isn't interesting! Shut up it's late. Also arguing is fun. What's the point of arguing if there is one correct answer? ...Being right? Well obviously we all THINK we're right that's why we're arguing our points. Of course this argument is over an opinion, so it's basically everyone trying to convince eachother that their opinion is better/backed up by more facts! That's not what a fact is though. Comparison of two players playing a different race at a different time under different circumstances is pretty much imagination. Which is fine, btw. I love imagination. I just don't like to have debates over it. ... You did read what I wrote right? The part where I said we were arguing about an opinion not a fact? I'm saying we're trying to use facts (ie GSL trophies/length of careers) to support our opinions. Also YOU don't have to debate! That's the beauty of it! Participation is optional! Huzzah! That is true. Have a nice day.
And you as well sir!
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Parting is really cool. He congratulated life like a friend would and talked normally after the finals. I would be so shaken after losing 3 to 4
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Mvp is the Boxer of SC2. Even if Boxer could never compete with Flash, there was still just something about that era and that time where his play will always make him a legend. The biggest differences between Mvp and Life is that Mvp absolutely dominated his first 3 GSL wins throughout the seasons and was clearly a different tier of player compared to everyone else.
And then when his body was broken, WHEN HE COULD NOT FEEL WHEN HE TAPPED A KEY TWICE, his heart of a champion willed him to defeat Squirtle; a player who, on paper, was much more likely to win the championship during a time when Protoss was dominating against Terran.
It's been argued by some community figures that, especially in hindsight, Life stole his first championship from Mvp off of the back of "Lings of Liberty" Zerg being absolutely broken overpowered. During their sets, Mvp created calculated builds designed specifically to counter Life's aggressive Ling style and was successful in most sets. If you will remember, Life won 3 of the 4 games on the back of pre-nerf Infestor tech. It's also very important to remember that at the time, Terran did not possess sufficient tech to counter Speedling counterattacks because they moved faster than Hellions and Widow Mines did not exist.
Not trying to take anything away from Life, even though I wanted him to lose tonight: he is absolutely the best Zerg player that SC2 has seen so far. But the style of his wins just does not display the same brilliance that Mvp had at the height of his reign.
When I watch Life play, I feel like he barely slithers past his opponents most of the time. It was definitely true during his finals against Mvp, and he definitely won game 7 tonight by an coinflip build order advantage. I know it's a "sin" to say this, but it really isn't that hard to hold down "r" and a-move into Protoss who don't have splash due to said coinflip build order wins. It was striking to see Parting micro his fucking heart out, trying to micro each Blink Stalker while positioning his army, while Life has to do half of that or less due to unit design.
It isn't that I hate Life, it's just that he's never given me the same Starstruck feeling while I watch his play that Mvp did. Mvp's builds were absolutely brilliant and innovative at a time when the game was still being figured out, and it's hard to replicate that when the game is 5 years old (which is why we celebrate players like Bisu and Flash, who revolutionized Brood War after it had already been out for so long).
For me, the difference between the players is part storyline, part unit design; and frankly I think winning games because of Ling runbys when spawn positions make it hard for Terran to wall off is stupid, not skilled.
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Russian Federation399 Posts
what the hell, why was game 7 played on a completely new map? stupid tournament hosts! thats really idiotic
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On March 22 2015 18:40 Thrillz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:33 Dreamer.T wrote:On March 22 2015 18:32 bo1b wrote:On March 22 2015 18:22 Dreamer.T wrote:
Like others have said, during MVP's god year, he basically won everything, and no player comes close to having that aura of invincibility. When he joined a tournament, odds are you bet your money on him. I remember when him and Nestea were still shoulder to shoulder with regards to gsl wins, and people were wondering how their rivalry would end up. Well, it became obvious when MVP trounced over him several times. He wasn't this cookie cutter terran with superb mechanics (though in his prime before his wrist issues, he was a mechanical beast) like Innovation. He did builds that made your jaw drop. Like, it would be unorthodox, but a it unraveled throughout the game, you would slowly see the genius behind it. Everything just went according to plan, as if MVP just predicts the future and his opponent plays into his plans perfectly.
His character was also interesting. I remember he wasn't the player who was a huge turn on. He wasn't flashy, in fact most people found him boring and dull. But he gave 0 fucks. Who cares if his mouth is wide open while playing? He just destroys his opponents regardless. mvp's "aura of invincibility' was far lesser then innovations, lifes etc. People rewrite history far too much with him in order to fit some narrative they absolutely must have. I've been through all their reigns of terror, and only Life comes close. Innovation was ridiculous for a bit, and then hellbats got nerfed and he hasn't been that way ever since. Even when he was good, innovation was just a mechanical beast. Every build was the same. He was not inspiring at all. There is no history rewriting on my part at all. Btw, does anyone know what Mvp is doing atm? I haven't heard from him in ages, I'm assuming he's retired? Bogus really had the best opportunity imo, when he was destroying people with crazy winrates and just dominating in PL and individual leagues. Everyone knew he was the scariest player, then hellbats got nerfed and his team situation got worse, eventually disbanding and going to a foreign team. The rest is history. It was just too short though...not long enough to rack up a ton of wins. I'm curious when the next breakout will be... Zest was the last major breakout that had the opportunity.
I felt the same too. Innovation is still easily one of the best terrans ever, but the nerf exposed his weaker side, which is strategic adaptation, but I think he's improved in this aspect now. Remember that MVP vs INnovation game? Mvp truly demonstrated his versatility and nearly won, but Innovation's mechanics overcame him.
I think Zest is still in the runnings for best player ever by the end of sc2, though he has to catch up to life first. He's looking like he will turn out to be the bisu of sc2. Amazing and arguably best of his race, but not quite bonjwa status.
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Out of curiosity, everyone is talking about Mvp's health issues, but do we have a precise description of what he suffers from somewhere? I know I've seen him at a doctor consulting for back and neck pain in some video footage, but do we have something clearer and more certain?
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On March 22 2015 18:46 Lunareste wrote:
Mvp is the Boxer of SC2. Even if Boxer could never compete with Flash, there was still just something about that era and that time where his play will always make him a legend. The biggest differences between Mvp and Life is that Mvp absolutely dominated his first 3 GSL wins throughout the seasons and was clearly a different tier of player compared to everyone else.
And then when his body was broken, WHEN HE COULD NOT FEEL WHEN HE TAPPED A KEY TWICE, his heart of a champion willed him to defeat Squirtle; a player who, on paper, was much more likely to win the championship during a time when Protoss was dominating against Terran.
It's been argued by some community figures that, especially in hindsight, Life stole his first championship from Mvp off of the back of "Lings of Liberty" Zerg being absolutely broken overpowered. During their sets, Mvp created calculated builds designed specifically to counter Life's aggressive Ling style and was successful in most sets. If you will remember, Life won 3 of the 4 games on the back of pre-nerf Infestor tech. It's also very important to remember that at the time, Terran did not possess sufficient tech to counter Speedling counterattacks because they moved faster than Hellions and Widow Mines did not exist.
Not trying to take anything away from Life, even though I wanted him to lose tonight: he is absolutely the best Zerg player that SC2 has seen so far. But the style of his wins just does not have the same dominance that Mvp had at the height of his reign.
When I watch Life play, I feel like he barely slithers past his opponents most of the time. It was definitely true during his finals against Mvp, and he definitely won game 7 tonight by an coinflip build order advantage. I know it's a "sin" to say this, but it really isn't that hard to hold down "r" and a-move into Protoss who don't have splash due to said coinflip build order wins. It was striking to see Parting micro his fucking heart out, trying to micro each Blink Stalker while positioning his army, while Life has to do half of that or less due to unit design.
It isn't that I hate Life, it's just that he's never given me the same Starstruck feeling while I watch his play that Mvp did. It's part storyline, it's part unit design, and frankly I think winning games because of Ling runbys when spawn positions make it hard for Terran to wall off is stupid, not skill.
Lmfao @ all of this.
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On March 22 2015 18:48 RandomPlayer wrote:
what the hell, why was game 7 played on a completely new map? stupid tournament hosts! thats really idiotic
That map is not completely new, it is used since the beginning of Code S, players knew that it could be played, and it is way better than 5/7 of the current WCS-approved map pool.
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I was completely amazed during this final. The ecstasy of the first two games, the promise of a comeback, Parting's unbelievably solid play in games 5 and 6, the tense atmosphere in game 7, Life's gamble and mental fortitude in that deciding moment.
Before game 7, on Life's face you could actually see worry and fear. And that because Parting was the better player when going on even footing into standard macro games (who would've thought, right?). But then, that star sense, that sparkle that distinguishes champions from great players, came into play. Life knew something had to be done, something to throw Parting off balance, to just give him that early advantage that would then snowball into victory, or else success would be in the hands of his opponent. That willingness to risk it all, to put it all on the table for the win, was what brought him fame.
On the opposite side of the story, Parting had started this series by playing non-standard games, only to see that the zerg had his number. Finding no success in gimmicky style, he went back to the thinking board, and, after a few more solid games he found himself on the brink of a completely unexpected comeback. This is where, as a Parting fanboy, I suffered the most. In that moment, going into game 7, I felt Parting to be the stronger player. I hoped he would feel that too, and that all he needed to do was to safely get into mid game in a somewhat even position and business will then take care of itself. And it would've. "Just play it safe Parting, open with a gate and then expand, take care not to suffer early losses and this is yours" was going through my mind.
Sadly, in that moment greed got the best of him, thinking he was the one that had to pull the ace up his sleeve, and, even though he played an outstanding g7, was just too far behind to be able to hold the swarm.
Grats Life, he really is (at least) Mvp's successor.
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On March 22 2015 18:49 OtherWorld wrote:
Out of curiosity, everyone is talking about Mvp's health issues, but do we have a precise description of what he suffers from somewhere? I know I've seen him at a doctor consulting for back and neck pain in some video footage, but do we have something clearer and more certain?
I think it's always been kinda ambiguous, and I mean we lack the actual proof, such as a medical report that clearly outlines his health issues. It's mostly some type of issue that causes him pain when he plays in his wrists, with the source coming from nerve damage in his spine.
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On March 22 2015 18:49 OtherWorld wrote:
Out of curiosity, everyone is talking about Mvp's health issues, but do we have a precise description of what he suffers from somewhere? I know I've seen him at a doctor consulting for back and neck pain in some video footage, but do we have something clearer and more certain?
Nerve is wrapped around the spinal cord, but not sure what the medical term for that is.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On March 22 2015 18:49 OtherWorld wrote:
Out of curiosity, everyone is talking about Mvp's health issues, but do we have a precise description of what he suffers from somewhere? I know I've seen him at a doctor consulting for back and neck pain in some video footage, but do we have something clearer and more certain?
I think he had pinched nerves so he feels pain in his neck and can't feel his hands when he plays.
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Good finale, glad Parting could take it to game 7. Was worth waking up early and watching it on my phone.
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I tuned in during game 4. Seeing Life play pure roach hydra off nothing but lair tech was crazy. I don't believe g7 was a build order win at all. Parting must've misread speed or thought life wouldn't make enough lings to force the nexus down. But this is Life we're talking about. The King of Lings. Fantastic series.
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On March 22 2015 18:41 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:32 bo1b wrote:On March 22 2015 18:22 Dreamer.T wrote:
Like others have said, during MVP's god year, he basically won everything, and no player comes close to having that aura of invincibility. When he joined a tournament, odds are you bet your money on him. I remember when him and Nestea were still shoulder to shoulder with regards to gsl wins, and people were wondering how their rivalry would end up. Well, it became obvious when MVP trounced over him several times. He wasn't this cookie cutter terran with superb mechanics (though in his prime before his wrist issues, he was a mechanical beast) like Innovation. He did builds that made your jaw drop. Like, it would be unorthodox, but a it unraveled throughout the game, you would slowly see the genius behind it. Everything just went according to plan, as if MVP just predicts the future and his opponent plays into his plans perfectly.
His character was also interesting. I remember he wasn't the player who was a huge turn on. He wasn't flashy, in fact most people found him boring and dull. But he gave 0 fucks. Who cares if his mouth is wide open while playing? He just destroys his opponents regardless. mvp's "aura of invincibility' was far lesser then innovations, lifes etc. People rewrite history far too much with him in order to fit some narrative they absolutely must have. Innovation didn't even come close. His reign was very short.
I'm not talking about successful as such as I am "aura of invincibility", does anyone seriously think that mvp's perdiod of dominance was as intimidating as innovations? Like the guy was a monster.
"Stale build orders", hellbats etc do nothing to disprove that in his period of dominance, for however long it was, was probably the hardest hitting period there was.
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On March 22 2015 19:07 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:41 Wildmoon wrote:On March 22 2015 18:32 bo1b wrote:On March 22 2015 18:22 Dreamer.T wrote:
Like others have said, during MVP's god year, he basically won everything, and no player comes close to having that aura of invincibility. When he joined a tournament, odds are you bet your money on him. I remember when him and Nestea were still shoulder to shoulder with regards to gsl wins, and people were wondering how their rivalry would end up. Well, it became obvious when MVP trounced over him several times. He wasn't this cookie cutter terran with superb mechanics (though in his prime before his wrist issues, he was a mechanical beast) like Innovation. He did builds that made your jaw drop. Like, it would be unorthodox, but a it unraveled throughout the game, you would slowly see the genius behind it. Everything just went according to plan, as if MVP just predicts the future and his opponent plays into his plans perfectly.
His character was also interesting. I remember he wasn't the player who was a huge turn on. He wasn't flashy, in fact most people found him boring and dull. But he gave 0 fucks. Who cares if his mouth is wide open while playing? He just destroys his opponents regardless. mvp's "aura of invincibility' was far lesser then innovations, lifes etc. People rewrite history far too much with him in order to fit some narrative they absolutely must have. Innovation didn't even come close. His reign was very short. I'm not talking about successful as such as I am "aura of invincibility", does anyone seriously think that mvp's perdiod of dominance was as intimidating as innovations? Like the guy was a monster. "Stale build orders", hellbats etc do nothing to disprove that in his period of dominance, for however long it was, was probably the hardest hitting period there was.
Mvp's aura far exceed Innovation's imo. Mvp at his peak was viewed as Invincible and expected win any tournaments he entered.
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On March 22 2015 18:49 OtherWorld wrote:
Out of curiosity, everyone is talking about Mvp's health issues, but do we have a precise description of what he suffers from somewhere? I know I've seen him at a doctor consulting for back and neck pain in some video footage, but do we have something clearer and more certain?
I think I read some nerve was pinched in either his shoulder or neck and that severy disabled his ability to play to the point of him losing sense and feeling only cold in his hand.
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On March 22 2015 19:09 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 19:07 bo1b wrote:On March 22 2015 18:41 Wildmoon wrote:On March 22 2015 18:32 bo1b wrote:On March 22 2015 18:22 Dreamer.T wrote:
Like others have said, during MVP's god year, he basically won everything, and no player comes close to having that aura of invincibility. When he joined a tournament, odds are you bet your money on him. I remember when him and Nestea were still shoulder to shoulder with regards to gsl wins, and people were wondering how their rivalry would end up. Well, it became obvious when MVP trounced over him several times. He wasn't this cookie cutter terran with superb mechanics (though in his prime before his wrist issues, he was a mechanical beast) like Innovation. He did builds that made your jaw drop. Like, it would be unorthodox, but a it unraveled throughout the game, you would slowly see the genius behind it. Everything just went according to plan, as if MVP just predicts the future and his opponent plays into his plans perfectly.
His character was also interesting. I remember he wasn't the player who was a huge turn on. He wasn't flashy, in fact most people found him boring and dull. But he gave 0 fucks. Who cares if his mouth is wide open while playing? He just destroys his opponents regardless. mvp's "aura of invincibility' was far lesser then innovations, lifes etc. People rewrite history far too much with him in order to fit some narrative they absolutely must have. Innovation didn't even come close. His reign was very short. I'm not talking about successful as such as I am "aura of invincibility", does anyone seriously think that mvp's perdiod of dominance was as intimidating as innovations? Like the guy was a monster. "Stale build orders", hellbats etc do nothing to disprove that in his period of dominance, for however long it was, was probably the hardest hitting period there was. Mvp's aura far exceed Innovation's imo. Mvp at his peak was viewed as Invincible and expected win any tournaments he entered.
What? Was this during the same period of time he was competing with nestea, or the time that mkp and drg were winning the non gsl events, or when he got beaten by mma in gsl? It's hard to argue he was the greatest sc2 player so far, but come on...
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EPT
