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On March 22 2015 18:14 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:04 Caihead wrote:On March 22 2015 18:03 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 22 2015 17:59 Caihead wrote:On March 22 2015 17:57 SC2Toastie wrote:On March 22 2015 17:57 Caihead wrote:On March 22 2015 17:56 SC2Toastie wrote:
To the people saying MVP is the best player of all time and Life should win 2 more titles before he can compete...
MVP has been irrelevant for 2-3 years. Half of SC2s lifetime, the "best player ever" hasn't even been playing. Meanwhile, Life has won time and time and time again.
Additionally, MVP won most of his GSL when his race was overpowered AND there were a lot more GSLs to win at the time with a lot less competition.
Life has clearly shown to be superior to MVP by now, same as a number other players can easilly rival MVP by now. People disagreeing can usually only draw the "more GSL won" card. I want to hear some other, less easily disposed argument plz. MVP didn't really slump for a whole year while he was dominant though, so Life's got to maintain his form for at least another year. MVP slumped for 3 years, that's not a lot better is it? MVP was dominant for 2-3 years then slumped for 3. Life was dominant for 1, slumped for 1,then in form some times slump some times before blizzcon, and now here we are. It's about consistency. I don't think you can call "cannot practice half as much as anyone else due to a broken back and cannot feel his fingers touching the keyboard during games" a slump. I count Flash being out of the second last OSL in Ro4 when he was getting his surgery a slump. It's just reality. Stop saying MVP is in a slump, he's basically retired since 2013, he's last serious appearence was in WCS global 2013 season 1, end of the story, show is over, just applaud and show respect. We may see him participate to a tournament here and there but he will never actually compete to anything anymore. Guy is one year and ahalf older than Flash, and 6 years older than LifeSaying he's not good anymore, or in a slump, is a total insult to his career and as stupid as "how look LeBron is jumping higher than Jordan"
You realize I'm defending MVP's legacy and saying Life's not achieved that status yet right.
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Austria24416 Posts
Oh, by the way!
The last non telecom player to win a GSL was Dear. PartinG was the first one since him to even make a GSL final.
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On March 22 2015 18:15 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:12 Nebuchad wrote:
There's something kind of sad about people fighting over which player is the best and why. Tournaments are snapshots in time. Did Mvp win some of his GSL at an easier time? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He still won them. Could Mvp have won more tournaments if he didn't have health issues? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He does. People don't argue over whether Kasparov would beat Carlsen today if he hadn't gone into politics. They don't because there's obviously no answer, and the question isn't even interesting. Your mom... Doesn't... Have an answer... And isn't interesting! Shut up it's late. Also arguing is fun. What's the point of arguing if there is one correct answer?
"We must all be lovers of victory in regard to knowing what is true and what is falsehood as regards the things we are talking about." 
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On March 22 2015 18:15 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:12 Nebuchad wrote:
There's something kind of sad about people fighting over which player is the best and why. Tournaments are snapshots in time. Did Mvp win some of his GSL at an easier time? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He still won them. Could Mvp have won more tournaments if he didn't have health issues? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He does. People don't argue over whether Kasparov would beat Carlsen today if he hadn't gone into politics. They don't because there's obviously no answer, and the question isn't even interesting. Your mom... Doesn't... Have an answer... And isn't interesting! Shut up it's late. Also arguing is fun. What's the point of arguing if there is one correct answer?
...Being right?
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United States23455 Posts
On March 22 2015 18:15 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:08 Darkhorse wrote:On March 22 2015 18:06 Wildmoon wrote:
People who witnessed Mvp's reign of terror knows that there hasn't been anything that match it yet. It's not just about trophy number. It's about the aura of invincibility. This guy gets it. Everyone shit their pants when he was invited to MLG (Anaheim I think) because we just KNEW he was going to win. And in Korea no one was feared more. Back then MLG would invite one Korean of each race and the Terran would always win, so of course everyone knew.
Yo I also sometimes forget that Huk and Leenock won MLGs in 2011 don't worry
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Is it me or are there been many "who's the GOAT" discussions in LR threads lately?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49490 Posts
On March 22 2015 18:17 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Oh, by the way!
The last non telecom player to win a GSL was Dear. PartinG was the first one since him to even make a GSL final.
proof that everything other than the telecom wars is irrelevant.
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On March 22 2015 18:12 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:06 Wildmoon wrote:
People who witnessed Mvp's reign of terror knows that there hasn't been anything that match it yet. It's not just about trophy number. It's about the aura of invincibility. I rank Mvp at #1 and he's one of my favorite players of all-time but his "invincibility" is greatly exaggerated. Comparing peak performances, I'd say Bogus and Life are not only comparable but maybe even scarier. Mvp earns his #1 for being super consistent, accomplished and overcoming great adversity. With regards to 2011 though... - He did not really have to play TvP as much during his 2011 peak (his weakest matchup) due to Protoss going extinct in the gsl - MMA had his number - Leenock knocked him out at MLG and GSL November - Terran was doing extremely well in 2011 - He actually had a disappointing streak in the regular seasons of gsl from like Feburary to July (granted he won the WC in between) where he had even fallen to code A.
It's exaggerated because it has become a thing of legend. The fact that he didn't have to play TvP much doesn't matter because he he had to, he won when it mattered. MMA had his number doesn't really matter because it's not like MMA had his number by a lot. Mvp beated MMA plenty of time. All of those trivial things don't really matter when you look at the big picture.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Here are the basic guidleines to how I judged the GOAT:
Results with GSL being the highest value possible.
Consistency
Innovation
Refinement
Adversity
Playing field
Meta
Matchups
Clutch
Preparation
Composure
Path played
Results:
Mvp 9 Premiers, 4 GSL Golds, 2 GSL Finals
Life 10 Premier, 3 GSL Finals.
Mvp ahead because of the weighting I give to his GSL Finals.
Mvp was consistent for 2-3 years. Life had 1 good year, 1 off year and the last 4 months. (Mvp ahead)
Innovation, Mvp wins hands down though Life's contributions are much harder to quantify specifically in the way he changed the overall Zerg approach to the race. (Mvp ahead)
Refinement: Mvp also refined his own builds (he made mech 30 second timing pushes to kill BL/infestor and the scv pull). Life refined aggressive ZvT to the last ling. I think Life wins this, but not as much as you'd think (Life)
Adversity comes down to the playing field, teh meta and the matchups they faced at critical junctures.
This is too broad a topic but basically Mvp fought bl/infestor with a broken back and beat Protoss during the second Protoss revolution of the meta against 3 of the top 5 best Protoss players. He also beat Terrans during the reign of GomTvT.
Life played in BL/infestor but he never was able to dominate it at the end cause of his ZvZ unlike Mvp during the TvT era. He won MLG under WM and Hellbats, fell off for an year and made a comeback at the end of 2014 where I do think the meta was basically even for all races.
In terms of meta they played in Mvp had it worse.
Playing Field: Life wins this as the most current era usually means its header. Though its not always the case in every game (like the current iteration of LoL and the breakup of their best teams).
Clutch: Pretty even. In the finals Mvp only ever lost to MMA and Life, two of the all time greats. Life lost to Taeja another all time-great, but lost to ForGG, a player somewhere between good-great. Mvp wins this, but not by much.
Preparation: Mvp prepped for his games the best of any player of all time. This isn't close. On the other hand, this is a tangentail quality that only I care about. Think about it like this, have you ever seen another player ever pull out a move like the medviac, thor ghost pdd 4 nukes strat in a GSL Finals?
Composure: Basically even and pretty similar to clutch.
So in my overall rankings, yea Mvp is still ahead in the GOAT evenafter being gone for years.
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On March 22 2015 18:18 OtherWorld wrote:
Is it me or are there been many "who's the GOAT" discussions in LR threars lately?
Blame Life
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United States23455 Posts
On March 22 2015 18:17 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:15 Darkhorse wrote:On March 22 2015 18:12 Nebuchad wrote:
There's something kind of sad about people fighting over which player is the best and why. Tournaments are snapshots in time. Did Mvp win some of his GSL at an easier time? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He still won them. Could Mvp have won more tournaments if he didn't have health issues? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He does. People don't argue over whether Kasparov would beat Carlsen today if he hadn't gone into politics. They don't because there's obviously no answer, and the question isn't even interesting. Your mom... Doesn't... Have an answer... And isn't interesting! Shut up it's late. Also arguing is fun. What's the point of arguing if there is one correct answer? ...Being right?
Well obviously we all THINK we're right that's why we're arguing our points. Of course this argument is over an opinion, so it's basically everyone trying to convince eachother that their opinion is better/backed up by more facts!
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49490 Posts
On March 22 2015 18:18 OtherWorld wrote:
Is it me or are there been many "who's the GOAT" discussions in LR threars lately?
for those who don't know this is the GOAT
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 22 2015 18:20 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:18 OtherWorld wrote:
Is it me or are there been many "who's the GOAT" discussions in LR threars lately? for those who don't know this is the GOAT + Show Spoiler +
Now that's some serious GOAT. Such swag display, I'm amazed.
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Like others have said, during MVP's god year, he basically won everything, and no player comes close to having that aura of invincibility. When he joined a tournament, odds are you bet your money on him. I remember when him and Nestea were still shoulder to shoulder with regards to gsl wins, and people were wondering how their rivalry would end up. Well, it became obvious when MVP trounced over him several times. He wasn't this cookie cutter terran with superb mechanics (though in his prime before his wrist issues, he was a mechanical beast) like Innovation. He did builds that made your jaw drop. Like, it would be unorthodox, but a it unraveled throughout the game, you would slowly see the genius behind it. Everything just went according to plan, as if MVP just predicts the future and his opponent plays into his plans perfectly.
His character was also interesting. I remember he wasn't the player who was a huge turn on. He wasn't flashy, in fact most people found him boring and dull. But he gave 0 fucks. Who cares if his mouth is wide open while playing? He just destroys his opponents regardless.
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On March 22 2015 18:20 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:18 OtherWorld wrote:
Is it me or are there been many "who's the GOAT" discussions in LR threars lately? for those who don't know this is the GOAT + Show Spoiler +
Are those things real, I thought they were just gags in awful audio video remixes of shitty pop songs.
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Austria24416 Posts
The great wall of stuchiu has been written
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On March 22 2015 18:19 Darkhorse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:17 Nebuchad wrote:On March 22 2015 18:15 Darkhorse wrote:On March 22 2015 18:12 Nebuchad wrote:
There's something kind of sad about people fighting over which player is the best and why. Tournaments are snapshots in time. Did Mvp win some of his GSL at an easier time? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He still won them. Could Mvp have won more tournaments if he didn't have health issues? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He does. People don't argue over whether Kasparov would beat Carlsen today if he hadn't gone into politics. They don't because there's obviously no answer, and the question isn't even interesting. Your mom... Doesn't... Have an answer... And isn't interesting! Shut up it's late. Also arguing is fun. What's the point of arguing if there is one correct answer? ...Being right? Well obviously we all THINK we're right that's why we're arguing our points. Of course this argument is over an opinion, so it's basically everyone trying to convince eachother that their opinion is better/backed up by more facts!
That's not what a fact is though. Comparison of two players playing a different race at a different time under different circumstances is pretty much imagination.
Which is fine, btw. I love imagination. I just don't like to have debates over it.
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Mvp who?
Life is only 18 and not about to stop.
GOAT WORSHIP, WORSHIP LIFE
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United States23455 Posts
On March 22 2015 18:26 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2015 18:19 Darkhorse wrote:On March 22 2015 18:17 Nebuchad wrote:On March 22 2015 18:15 Darkhorse wrote:On March 22 2015 18:12 Nebuchad wrote:
There's something kind of sad about people fighting over which player is the best and why. Tournaments are snapshots in time. Did Mvp win some of his GSL at an easier time? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He still won them. Could Mvp have won more tournaments if he didn't have health issues? Yeah, and that's irrelevant. He does. People don't argue over whether Kasparov would beat Carlsen today if he hadn't gone into politics. They don't because there's obviously no answer, and the question isn't even interesting. Your mom... Doesn't... Have an answer... And isn't interesting! Shut up it's late. Also arguing is fun. What's the point of arguing if there is one correct answer? ...Being right? Well obviously we all THINK we're right that's why we're arguing our points. Of course this argument is over an opinion, so it's basically everyone trying to convince eachother that their opinion is better/backed up by more facts! That's not what a fact is though. Comparison of two players playing a different race at a different time under different circumstances is pretty much imagination. Which is fine, btw. I love imagination. I just don't like to have debates over it.
... You did read what I wrote right? The part where I said we were arguing about an opinion not a fact? I'm saying we're trying to use facts (ie GSL trophies/length of careers) to support our opinions.
Also YOU don't have to debate! That's the beauty of it! Participation is optional! Huzzah!
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On March 22 2015 18:22 Dreamer.T wrote:His character was also interesting. I remember he wasn't the player who was a huge turn on. He wasn't flashy, in fact most people found him boring and dull. But he gave 0 fucks. Who cares if his mouth is wide open while playing? He just destroys his opponents regardless.
Yeah I remember this quite clearly. I remember people frothing at the mouth for MMA to dethrone Mvp and finally take Terran forward. But he just kept winning and winning. I remember specifically hating him for that which just grew to admiration until Life finally took him out.
It's funny in a way because I feel like with everything going on, MMA was supposed to take down Mvp and take his place in the pantheon of greatest players, but when he couldn't continue to perform, beleaguered Mvp was forced back on the throne, and it's almost like fate brought Life in to fulfill the enthronement of a successor and relieve him of rule. You could probably make some sort of cosmic story out of it if you were bored enough.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://thumbs.media.smithsonianmag.com//filer/b9/d2/b9d271f3-7f66-4132-b5af-7d33844505b7/goat.jpg__800x600_q85_crop.jpg)
