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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On September 17 2014 06:12 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 06:10 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't know why more terrans don't do hellbat pushes. The amount of zergs I "accidentally" kill with the push is stupid, or minimally, do huge damage. While I understand I don't play people of the same caliber, the standard zerg opening does not do well against it at all. It hits the exact same time the 6 hellions hit, except they're just suddenly stupid strong against very little units, or lings.. which are dead weight. Thing is, Zergs sometimes remember that scouting is not forbidden.
Now you talking crazy. Everyone knows that scouting leads to death. Look at Falsh vs Zest IEM Finals. Flash only lost the game he scouted!
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That Reaper is healing his entire skeleton back at this point. Wolverine Reapers!
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On September 17 2014 06:14 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 06:12 Zenbrez wrote:On September 17 2014 06:11 Paljas wrote:On September 17 2014 06:10 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't know why more terrans don't do hellbat pushes. The amount of zergs I "accidentally" kill with the push is stupid, or minimally, do huge damage. While I understand I don't play people of the same caliber, the standard zerg opening does not do well against it at all. it can be somewhat allinnish It isn't. It's literally the exact same as the 2 reaper 6 hellion build, except you make the armory instead of the starport, it hits the exact same time. Behind it you make your 3rd CC, rax 2-3 and eng bays. It's a macro build, except instead of hellions, it's hellbats. Allin-ish means that if the attack fails, you're way behind. If roaches are out and the push is defended, you are pretty open for a counter attack. Also, while you can still load in and drop, there's no way to push creep back which should allow zerg to safely take a fast fourth. (imo ofc)
But you're not behind. Maybe I'll upload a game sometime and show the timings, there's VERY little difference, except that hellbats are basically guaranteed to do more damage than hellions. And if the zerg is prepared you back off, like you would with your hellions.
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On September 17 2014 06:14 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 06:13 sAsImre wrote:On September 17 2014 06:12 Zenbrez wrote:On September 17 2014 06:11 Paljas wrote:On September 17 2014 06:10 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't know why more terrans don't do hellbat pushes. The amount of zergs I "accidentally" kill with the push is stupid, or minimally, do huge damage. While I understand I don't play people of the same caliber, the standard zerg opening does not do well against it at all. it can be somewhat allinnish It isn't. It's literally the exact same as the 2 reaper 6 hellion build, except you make the armory instead of the starport, it hits the exact same time. Behind it you make your 3rd CC, rax 2-3 and eng bays. It's a macro build, except instead of hellions, it's hellbats. don't talk if you can't even see that there is a port here. Don't talk unless you're aware there is more than 1 variation of a build.
we're talking about a game where happy heaviliy commited to a port and an armory delaying his 3rd, upgrades and production. But it's not something that'll put him back at all if it fails. Ok mr know it all.
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On September 17 2014 06:15 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 06:14 Yorkie wrote:On September 17 2014 06:12 TheDwf wrote:On September 17 2014 06:10 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't know why more terrans don't do hellbat pushes. The amount of zergs I "accidentally" kill with the push is stupid, or minimally, do huge damage. While I understand I don't play people of the same caliber, the standard zerg opening does not do well against it at all. It hits the exact same time the 6 hellions hit, except they're just suddenly stupid strong against very little units, or lings.. which are dead weight. Thing is, Zergs sometimes remember that scouting is not forbidden. You mean they sometimes get lucky. Normal scouting only reveals a standard reactor hellion build... Yeah, when you sacrifice an Overlord into 4 Marines after standing 2 minutes in their sight, probably.
Should've expected this kind of response. One game != every game. When one building spells the difference between standard macro play and a big hellbat attack it is very hard to scout. Not to mention if you're going to go roaches reactively you have to spot the armory in enough time to build the warren and complete roaches before the attack hits, which is a small window
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On September 17 2014 06:16 Yorkie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 06:15 Paljas wrote:On September 17 2014 06:12 Zenbrez wrote:On September 17 2014 06:11 Paljas wrote:On September 17 2014 06:10 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't know why more terrans don't do hellbat pushes. The amount of zergs I "accidentally" kill with the push is stupid, or minimally, do huge damage. While I understand I don't play people of the same caliber, the standard zerg opening does not do well against it at all. it can be somewhat allinnish It isn't. It's literally the exact same as the 2 reaper 6 hellion build, except you make the armory instead of the starport, it hits the exact same time. Behind it you make your 3rd CC, rax 2-3 and eng bays. It's a macro build, except instead of hellions, it's hellbats. losing all your helions for potential drone kills is somewhat allinnish itself. ye, you dont lose the game, but zerg can gain a huge lead The only way to really kill the hellbats is opening roaches though, which balances out the self inflicted damage to economy for both players unless the zerg is going for a big roach attack anyway
No, macro builds can include a ~6'40 bane nest out of safety. soO played like that vs Flash in GSL.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 17 2014 06:17 Thezzy wrote:
That Reaper is healing his entire skeleton back at this point. Wolverine Reapers!
Wolverine ain't got a thing on Reapers. Because who needs claws, when you have uranium shells.
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On September 17 2014 06:17 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 06:15 TheDwf wrote:On September 17 2014 06:14 Yorkie wrote:On September 17 2014 06:12 TheDwf wrote:On September 17 2014 06:10 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't know why more terrans don't do hellbat pushes. The amount of zergs I "accidentally" kill with the push is stupid, or minimally, do huge damage. While I understand I don't play people of the same caliber, the standard zerg opening does not do well against it at all. It hits the exact same time the 6 hellions hit, except they're just suddenly stupid strong against very little units, or lings.. which are dead weight. Thing is, Zergs sometimes remember that scouting is not forbidden. You mean they sometimes get lucky. Normal scouting only reveals a standard reactor hellion build... Yeah, when you sacrifice an Overlord into 4 Marines after standing 2 minutes in their sight, probably. Is there a hardcounter to this tactic that is not a build order (eg. 2base muta)? Because if not, it should be a reliable early midgame push that has a huge potential to put Terran in a lead.
defensive roaches put you ahead. like way ahead.
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On September 17 2014 06:18 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 06:16 Yorkie wrote:On September 17 2014 06:15 Paljas wrote:On September 17 2014 06:12 Zenbrez wrote:On September 17 2014 06:11 Paljas wrote:On September 17 2014 06:10 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't know why more terrans don't do hellbat pushes. The amount of zergs I "accidentally" kill with the push is stupid, or minimally, do huge damage. While I understand I don't play people of the same caliber, the standard zerg opening does not do well against it at all. it can be somewhat allinnish It isn't. It's literally the exact same as the 2 reaper 6 hellion build, except you make the armory instead of the starport, it hits the exact same time. Behind it you make your 3rd CC, rax 2-3 and eng bays. It's a macro build, except instead of hellions, it's hellbats. losing all your helions for potential drone kills is somewhat allinnish itself. ye, you dont lose the game, but zerg can gain a huge lead The only way to really kill the hellbats is opening roaches though, which balances out the self inflicted damage to economy for both players unless the zerg is going for a big roach attack anyway No, macro builds can include a ~6'40 bane nest out of safety. soO played like that vs Flash in GSL.
It can include a bane nest, but it's absolutely not the standard
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On September 17 2014 06:17 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 06:14 boxerfred wrote:On September 17 2014 06:12 Zenbrez wrote:On September 17 2014 06:11 Paljas wrote:On September 17 2014 06:10 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't know why more terrans don't do hellbat pushes. The amount of zergs I "accidentally" kill with the push is stupid, or minimally, do huge damage. While I understand I don't play people of the same caliber, the standard zerg opening does not do well against it at all. it can be somewhat allinnish It isn't. It's literally the exact same as the 2 reaper 6 hellion build, except you make the armory instead of the starport, it hits the exact same time. Behind it you make your 3rd CC, rax 2-3 and eng bays. It's a macro build, except instead of hellions, it's hellbats. Allin-ish means that if the attack fails, you're way behind. If roaches are out and the push is defended, you are pretty open for a counter attack. Also, while you can still load in and drop, there's no way to push creep back which should allow zerg to safely take a fast fourth. (imo ofc) But you're not behind. Maybe I'll upload a game sometime and show the timings, there's VERY little difference, except that hellbats are basically guaranteed to do more damage than hellbats. And if the zerg is prepared you back off, like you would with your hellions.
Wait, that hellbat attack is not really a sharp timing but more a "let's hope he hasn't 10 banes and/or 5 roaches". I'm not saying this build is bad. I'm just saying that in case it totally gets shut down, you're way behind. More behind when eg. cloaked banshee play gets shut down hard.
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On September 17 2014 06:17 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 06:15 TheDwf wrote:On September 17 2014 06:14 Yorkie wrote:On September 17 2014 06:12 TheDwf wrote:On September 17 2014 06:10 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't know why more terrans don't do hellbat pushes. The amount of zergs I "accidentally" kill with the push is stupid, or minimally, do huge damage. While I understand I don't play people of the same caliber, the standard zerg opening does not do well against it at all. It hits the exact same time the 6 hellions hit, except they're just suddenly stupid strong against very little units, or lings.. which are dead weight. Thing is, Zergs sometimes remember that scouting is not forbidden. You mean they sometimes get lucky. Normal scouting only reveals a standard reactor hellion build... Yeah, when you sacrifice an Overlord into 4 Marines after standing 2 minutes in their sight, probably. Is there a hardcounter to this tactic that is not a build order (eg. 2base muta)? Because if not, it should be a reliable early midgame push that has a huge potential to put Terran in a lead.
If the zerg blindly opens roaches/is going for a big roach or roach bane attack then he can shut it down very easily. It's what I don't like about the build. it tends to result in bops either way
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On September 17 2014 06:16 Yorkie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 06:15 Paljas wrote:On September 17 2014 06:12 Zenbrez wrote:On September 17 2014 06:11 Paljas wrote:On September 17 2014 06:10 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't know why more terrans don't do hellbat pushes. The amount of zergs I "accidentally" kill with the push is stupid, or minimally, do huge damage. While I understand I don't play people of the same caliber, the standard zerg opening does not do well against it at all. it can be somewhat allinnish It isn't. It's literally the exact same as the 2 reaper 6 hellion build, except you make the armory instead of the starport, it hits the exact same time. Behind it you make your 3rd CC, rax 2-3 and eng bays. It's a macro build, except instead of hellions, it's hellbats. losing all your helions for potential drone kills is somewhat allinnish itself. ye, you dont lose the game, but zerg can gain a huge lead The only way to really kill the hellbats is opening roaches though, which balances out the self inflicted damage to economy for both players unless the zerg is going for a big roach attack anyway
a wall, queens and a spine can hold such pushes just fine
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On September 17 2014 06:18 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2014 06:17 boxerfred wrote:On September 17 2014 06:15 TheDwf wrote:On September 17 2014 06:14 Yorkie wrote:On September 17 2014 06:12 TheDwf wrote:On September 17 2014 06:10 Zenbrez wrote:
I don't know why more terrans don't do hellbat pushes. The amount of zergs I "accidentally" kill with the push is stupid, or minimally, do huge damage. While I understand I don't play people of the same caliber, the standard zerg opening does not do well against it at all. It hits the exact same time the 6 hellions hit, except they're just suddenly stupid strong against very little units, or lings.. which are dead weight. Thing is, Zergs sometimes remember that scouting is not forbidden. You mean they sometimes get lucky. Normal scouting only reveals a standard reactor hellion build... Yeah, when you sacrifice an Overlord into 4 Marines after standing 2 minutes in their sight, probably. Is there a hardcounter to this tactic that is not a build order (eg. 2base muta)? Because if not, it should be a reliable early midgame push that has a huge potential to put Terran in a lead. defensive roaches put you ahead. like way ahead.
Why? Can't teran just go for 1-2 tanks while pumping out a 3rd or a double ebay? I don't get how 5-10 roaches put you way behind, especially since they are slow and can't counter drop play.
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The Viking should tell him enough
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Happy has crushed Miniraiser this series
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Lorning
Belgica34432 Posts
Poll: Recommend Final Match Game 2?★- Do not see this game no matter what (2) 29% ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (3) 43% ★★★- Good game (1) 14% ★★★★- Highly recommended game (1) 14% ★★★★★- One of the best games this season (0) 0% 7 total votes Your vote: Recommend Final Match Game 2? (Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what
(Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★★★- Good game
(Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
Poll: Recommend Final Match Game 3?★- Do not see this game no matter what (2) 33% ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do (1) 17% ★★★- Good game (1) 17% ★★★★- Highly recommended game (0) 0% ★★★★★- One of the best games this season (2) 33% 6 total votes Your vote: Recommend Final Match Game 3? (Vote): ★- Do not see this game no matter what
(Vote): ★★- Not recommended unless you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★★★- Good game
(Vote): ★★★★- Highly recommended game
(Vote): ★★★★★- One of the best games this season
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
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such a horribad mistake to morph the banelings at entrance...
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EPT
